From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #80 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, March 21 2004 Volume 04 : Number 080 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] The Seasons [was: Ratings] ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder [was: The Debt, Friend in Need, and a fish called Wanda] [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:25:33 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Seasons [was: Ratings] On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 20:21:02 +1300, cr wrote: >Lemme see, are there any eps in Season 1 and 2 that really rocked me? >Umm, season 1 - no. I mean, really no. There are eps I like, even a >couple of eps I think are really good - Royal Couple of Thieves is one of >the best comedies in the whole series, IMO, and I like Fistful of Dinars, >partly because Jeremy Roberts is so good as the flaky Thersites.... >but there isn't one ep that makes me sit back afterwards lost for words. - --You're *kidding*?!? ;P The groundbreaking initial fight scene in Sins of The Past (complete with Maypole swinging)?? The first interracial locked-lips kiss in Mortal Beloved (ST:TOS doesn't count because the critics had Shatner and Nichols turn away from the camera)?? The first X double character in W...P (and the *coolest* of comedies for in-joke lines, IMO, bow-harp and all)?? The first black Helen in Beware Greeks, and the first bamboo "horse", replete with soldiers inside, that I've ever seen?? Reckoning, with psychological/emotional violence and the ending a mystery up until the end..... Callisto, with the history-making ladder fight.... You're getting very *jaded*, Thel.....;P >Season 2 - just a couple of eps in that class. Return of Callisto is >getting there, so is Intimate Stranger and Ten Little Warlords. And >Destiny and A Necessary Evil are right up there in the breathtaking >class. - --I liked Destiny. But don't forget Xena Scrolls, Remember Nothing, Orphan of War, ADITL, Ties That Bind.... I liked S2 less than S1, but it still had *sizzle*.....;P I don't _need_ my TV to be 3-arcs long, and there's nothing wrong with a good punchline at the end. ;P Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:32:08 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Channeling Xena spiritually On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:34:02 -0500, "mirrordrum" wrote: >for example, in , she actually calls on the power of ares. >but, being xena and not, for example, achilles, she outsmarts ares. yeah, >she uses his power but she uses his power for herself and the villagers >and avoids servitude and powerlessness. it's really the first clue we >have that xena is going to be a real pain in the butt for the olympians. - --You *go*, md!!! ;=) Reckoning is my *fave* ep!!! ;=) It not only highlights X's fantastic fighting skills, but her depth of feeling, sexuality, guilt, passion, loyalty, and willingness to die for a cause, all rolled into one suspenseful ep. And, the chick's *smart* to boot. ;=P Like you said, it's all foretelling the downfall of the gods. It's such a *cool* ep.....;=) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * "I LOVED forgetting it because it really made it * * so _live_ and so _immediate_...!!" * * --Barry Manilow, Manilow Talks CD, 1998 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:03:59 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder [was: The Debt, Friend in Need, and a fish called Wanda] Hard to tell anymore who said what, but I'm pretty sure I'm mostly responding to Thel (as usual...;) )..... On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:55:05 +1300, cr wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:50, Silenus wrote: > Ife writes > > >In a message dated 3/12/2004 5:50:47 AM Central Standard Time, > >cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > I wonder if we are guilty of beautism? > > Would we forgive Xena so readily if she was ugly? > >Depends how you define 'beautiful' or 'ugly'. It's not just looks >(though they help). But character counts for a lot, too. > >On the other hand, many 'beautiful' people, if their apparent brains >don't match their looks, can seem vacuous - Baywatch blonde bimbos. - --There was an interesting study done on 20/20 or one of those news programs a few months back, about how people react to good-looking people. They had two different pairs of actors engage strangers in a variety of situations. One pair of actors was plain- or ugly-looking. The other pair was good-looking (they were actually professional models). Without much deviance, strangers invariably were helpful to the good-looking pair, but uncaring or unhelpful towards the ugly- or plain-looking pair. People would go out of their way to give directions, or help pick up lost papers or lend money, etc. to the beautiful people, but totally ignore the ugly ones. It was a brutal, but honest portrayal of how superficial we all are. >Personally, I find 'ugly' more interesting than 'plain'. > >So to answer your point - I think we forgive 'sympathetic' characters >much more readily. An example being Ken in Fish Called Wanda, I don't >think you'd ever call him good-looking. > >So I'd say, though Xena's good looks undoubtedly help in establishing her >as a sympathetic character, they're not essential to it. - --Per above, I'd disagree. A *large* part of Xena's attraction is that LL's stunningly beautiful. And strong, and brave, and has the coolest fight moves. But (and I hate to admit to going on looks alone) I think it would be hard to make a case for her being as popular as she is if she were plain-looking or ugly. I.e., Jennifer Ward-Leland was fantastic as Boudicea, but I just don't see her carrying a series as the star for 6 yrs. like LL did. And, let's face it, America's never had the star of a TV show who was ugly or plain (and if they did, as in Ironside or Jake and the Fatman, there was always a "beautiful/handsome" sidekick close by). Let's face it: America's in love with beauty, superficial as it is. So, to answer Silenus' question, yes, I think we're guilty of beautism. ;=( OTOH, Barry Manilow and Clay Aiken are not "classically" handsome, yet they are extremely popular, so maybe there's hope for us yet...... ;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:29:47 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Seasons [was: Ratings] On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:25, Jackie M. Young wrote: > On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 20:21:02 +1300, cr wrote: > >Lemme see, are there any eps in Season 1 and 2 that really rocked me? > >Umm, season 1 - no. I mean, really no. There are eps I like, even a > >couple of eps I think are really good - Royal Couple of Thieves is one of > >the best comedies in the whole series, IMO, and I like Fistful of Dinars, > >partly because Jeremy Roberts is so good as the flaky Thersites.... > >but there isn't one ep that makes me sit back afterwards lost for words. > > --You're *kidding*?!? ;P > > The groundbreaking initial fight scene in Sins of The Past (complete > with Maypole swinging)?? It was interesting, visually. But I don't watch XWP for the fights, generally. There are a *few* fights where the staging, or the tension, are such that I do like to watch them. Xena (and Naiyima) vs Alti in Between the Lines. The 'flying' fight with Alti in Sin Trade. The fight in the tavern with the gods in Motherhood (and Xena's fight with Athena on Olympus). And Xena's last battle in Friend in Need. Xena fighting Callisto in the cave in Sacrifice. Callisto and Ares fighting in Armageddon Now and Sacrifice. Xena blitzing Ming's castle in Debt 2 (mainly 'cos she looked so cool in that sack-like thing she was wearing :) And there may be a few others. But all of those involve, not just fancy stunts, but some personal conflict - some intensity of emotion of the characters. The fight in SotP was, as I said, mildly intriguing - but not one that makes me go "Wow! Look at that!". > > The first interracial locked-lips kiss in Mortal Beloved (ST:TOS doesn't > count because the critics had Shatner and Nichols turn away from the > camera)?? So what? That didn't even register with me. Was that supposed to be a big deal or something? It just seemed perfectly ordinary to me. > The first X double character in W...P (and the *coolest* of comedies for > in-joke lines, IMO, bow-harp and all)?? Now that was a pretty good comedy, as comedies go, but very few of the comedies are in my 'favourites' list. And what's this busines with 'first this' and 'first that'. Kinda irrelevant, IMO. You could claim ITADITH as the 'first season-ender' but so what? Rather than the 'first' of something, I'd rather watch the 'best' example of whatever-it-is. > The first black Helen in Beware Greeks, and the first bamboo "horse", > replete with soldiers inside, that I've ever seen?? Is Galyn Gorg 'black'? That never registered with me either. I do rather like her as Helen, btw. And I quite like the ep. But it's still only in the 'quite like' category, not in the 'don't miss'. Anyway, so far as 'black' characters go, IMO the prize has to go to Gina (who is unmistakeably 'black') as Cleo in King of Assassins. > Reckoning, with psychological/emotional violence and the ending a mystery > up until the end..... Didn't care for the start of that. Somehow 'falsely accused' stories turn me off - not because I don't sympathise with the 'victim' of the accusation, maybe just because I'm paranoid that somebody might frame me some day. :) (How many people are wrongly convicted of crimes? An uncomfortably large percentage, I believe - and several percent is uncomfortably large in my view). I did like Ares when he appeared - Kevin is cool. But still, the Ares-Xena thing was much better explored (and more fun) in later eps. > Callisto, with the history-making ladder fight.... I *love* Callisto (the character). But when I first saw Callisto (the ep) I didn't like her at all. Her best line was the very last in the ep - "That's what _they_ think". Having watched all Callisto eps several times, I'd say that is her weakest ep (other than Angel Callisto in SoF). It was _after_ Callisto (the ep) that they started to have fun with the character and gave her some really witty and ironic lines. As for the ladder fight, that's one of those that turns me off due to its physical impossibility. It started out promisingly, but you just cannot balance on a ladder like that. If you move further from the pivot, it not only goes down but it continues to go down faster - it does _not_ go down a little way then reach equilibrium. Try it with a ruler across a pencil and a couple of erasers as weights some time. Next, when Callisto was falling and Xena caught the rope - 3 ways impossible! First, it would have overbalanced the ladder Xena was on; second, the jerk would have torn the rope out of Callisto's grasp (I'm assuming Xena is super-strong and could actually have held the rope, which is really another impossibility); and third, _why didn't Callisto just let go the rope anyway_? > You're getting very *jaded*, Thel.....;P Nah. I've seen all six seasons, and I have my favourites. And in most (not all) cases, there are eps in later seasons that eclipse those of S1/S2. Besides, that's not jaded. If I was getting jaded, I'd presumably like the later seasons _less_ because I'd 'seen it before' in earlier seasons. Which is self-evidently not the case. > >Season 2 - just a couple of eps in that class. Return of Callisto is > >getting there, so is Intimate Stranger and Ten Little Warlords. And > >Destiny and A Necessary Evil are right up there in the breathtaking > >class. > > --I liked Destiny. > > But don't forget Xena Scrolls, Remember Nothing, Orphan of War, ADITL, > Ties That Bind.... Xena Scrolls was OK - didn't care for it at first, partly cos I didn't care for ROC's and LL's '1940' characters. Ares was good though, and (dare I say it) it had a couple of good gags about 'irritating blondes' ;) So I've got to like it a bit better. Mind you, ROC's oh-so-phony prop Gatling/Maxim/Browning/plywood machine gun still disconcerts me - they could have done that *much* better. (I'm willing to overlook the futility of trying to use a heavy machinegun at close quarters in a tent..... a bit like trying to fence (as in duel) with a battleaxe..... ) Remember Nothing - umm, apt title, I can barely..... oh yeah. Well that one did nothing for me. I like Xena as Xena, generally, not alt-Xena trying not to kill people. Orphan of War was good - had a couple of neat comedy bits with Dagnine. ("What if it doesn't work?" "One of you gets my tent, other one gets my horse".) Mark Ferguson has good comic delivery. Kinda spoilt by the bizarre and rather unfrightening 'monster' he turned into at the end. I did appreciate the irony of Solan thinking Xena killed his mother, and the scene where Xena left him with Kaleipus (the 'enemy') was another nicely ironic and quite moving moment. But overall, good, not breathtaking. ADITL. I can watch it without cringing. But it's mostly a series of slapstick sketches. I'd sooner watch 'For Him the Bell Tolls', though, and *much* rather watch If The Shoe Fits or Little Problems or Takes One to Know One (and none of them make my 'outstanding' list either). Ties That Bind - again, good, but not in my favourites list. > I liked S2 less than S1, but it still had *sizzle*.....;P I, OTOH, liked S2 much better than S1 - on account of some very good eps which I've just named. But S3 had more.... > I don't _need_ my TV to be 3-arcs long, and there's nothing wrong with a > good punchline at the end. ;P > > Just MO, > --Jackie Hmmm. I like those episode arcs. But I also like good single eps. Not sure what you mean by 'punchline' though. But anyway, there were just as many good endings in later seasons as in S1/S2. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:42:41 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye of the Beholder [was: The Debt, Friend in Need, and a fish called Wanda] On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:03, Jackie M. Young wrote: (snip) > Without much deviance, strangers invariably were helpful to the > good-looking pair, but uncaring or unhelpful towards the ugly- or > plain-looking pair. People would go out of their way to give directions, > or help pick up lost papers or lend money, etc. to the beautiful people, > but totally ignore the ugly ones. Yes, but we're not talking about a stranger, we're talking about a character we 'know'. > > > >So to answer your point - I think we forgive 'sympathetic' characters > >much more readily. An example being Ken in Fish Called Wanda, I don't > >think you'd ever call him good-looking. > > > >So I'd say, though Xena's good looks undoubtedly help in establishing her > >as a sympathetic character, they're not essential to it. > > --Per above, I'd disagree. A *large* part of Xena's attraction is that > LL's stunningly beautiful. And strong, and brave, and has the coolest > fight moves. But (and I hate to admit to going on looks alone) I think it > would be hard to make a case for her being as popular as she is if she > were plain-looking or ugly. Well, LL is not always stunningly beautiful. It depends a lot on camera angle and even hairstyle. (IMO). As Lyla, in the Herc eps, she looked good enough to eat. She also looked pretty good as Xena - even though she was a villain much of the time. But in early Xena (IMO) they often made her look rather plain. IMO, Xena's fascination was due at least as much to LL's acting ability as to her looks, maybe more. But anyway, coming back to the original question - I'm sure that, having accepted Xena as our 'hero', we'd be prepared to forgive her almost anything - - even looking ugly ;) (OTOH, it was disconcerting to find that Liz Friedman looks nothing remotely like the character portrayed by Hudson in Yes Victoria.... :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #80 *************************************