From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #74 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, March 14 2004 Volume 04 : Number 074 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Channeling Xena spiritually ["mirrordrum" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Channeling Xena spiritually - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" To: ; Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 10:40 PM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Channeling Xena spiritually > > I could just imagine Athena and Ares arguing about Xena's loyalties, vying > > for Xena's allegiance, or Xena 'splaining to Athena why she didn't cotton > > to gods no matter how much she respected them. But I guess that would've > > complicated things too much, which TPTB saved for later seasons. > > > > -- Ife > > Besides, a friendly Athena? Kinda lacks drama. And it would have made > Xena's job too easy, if she could call on such powerful assistance. naw. xena could have called, and did call on, "powerful assistance" all over the place. first of all, there was gabrielle . but seriously, she had m'lila. very powerful and a relationship whose power caused both suffering and great benefit. she had lao ma. very powerful. she managed to kind of blow that relationship thus creating an exceptional arc. she had a potentially powerful ally in alti. an evil ally, admittedly, but one who certainly taught her things. xena had ares, but that was conflictual thus creating an exceptional relationship. she had krishna whose help she used and i'm still flummoxed that all the xena-hos have tolerated, nay, liked that. xena even had the god of eli for awhile there. i found that *really* odd and didn't much like it. the nifty thing about all the allies xena could and did call on--or maybe teachers is a better word, tho it went beyond that imo is that, as in real life as distinct from the iliad, her allies, or potential allies, were the source of magnificent plots and sub-plots and arcs and angst and turmoil and whatnot. the gods and goddesses of homer, the nice quote on athena notwithstanding, were terribly whimsical, fickle and all-powerful and mortals didn't have a chance. as you know, the gods and goddesses filled chosen heroes with courage and skill, smote the ones they didn't like, assumed the forms of warriors and seers (and on one occasion a swan--tho i don't think that's in homer) in order to have their way. as euripides says in the tag line of the bacchae "the gods have many faces and many fates fulfill to work their will. in vain man's expectation. god brings the unthought to be, as here we see." these are not the gods and goddesses of xena. even when she encounters the immortals, she is never really ruled or controlled. her relationship to those powers that be is decidedly not that of her purported time. this was essential, of course, and i think it simply mediated the ways she could call, or refuse to call, for assistance. for example, in , she actually calls on the power of ares. but, being xena and not, for example, achilles, she outsmarts ares. yeah, she uses his power but she uses his power for herself and the villagers and avoids servitude and powerlessness. it's really the first clue we have that xena is going to be a real pain in the butt for the olympians. cheerio, md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:04:00 -0500 From: "mirrordrum" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Message from Lucy about the benefit - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lilli Sprintz" To: Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 2:13 PM Subject: [chakram-refugees] Message from Lucy about the benefit > Mirrordrum said, about "channeling" xena, > > "but the wondrous thing is that "channeling xena" isn't just about invoking > the character in a tv show. it's about calling up in ourselves what is there > already even when we think we're too tired or scared or hurt too badly to > take another breath, let alone another step. and it draws, too, on the > strength of that community of people who love the show and who care about > each other through the show. > > and i'm just thinking how what goes around comes around...." > > > > that's about all I would normally have said, but thanks so much for the sentiments, MD, and sharing about your mate, and saying it all so well. thanks for the thanks. :) > alot of it is about hope, and if hope looks like what all of us have out here, then we are in >good hands with each other. And speaking of "circles," and Chakrams, if Lucy Lawless >now gets to draw on this wonderful energy which she helped to create several years ago, >then it is fitting, that the circle of hope and power and energy and caring, which WE have >been able to draw on, now is able to go back to her. interesting. i don't frame it as "hope." hope is not something i rely on much. i suppose i'm more pragmatic or something. and you know, i never see xena as being hopeful. gabrielle is hopeful, i think, and it's something i don't relate to well although it doesn't bother me. the power, energy and caring, though, are very much parts of xena along with risk-taking and having fun, in her unique and delightful way. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:00:21 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Channeling Xena spiritually On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:34, mirrordrum wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cr" > To: ; > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 10:40 PM > Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Channeling Xena spiritually > > > > > > > I could just imagine Athena and Ares arguing about Xena's loyalties, > > > vying > > > for Xena's allegiance, or Xena 'splaining to Athena why she didn't > > > cotton > > > to gods no matter how much she respected them. But I guess that > > > would've > > > complicated things too much, which TPTB saved for later seasons. > > > > > > -- Ife > > > > Besides, a friendly Athena? Kinda lacks drama. And it would have made > > Xena's job too easy, if she could call on such powerful assistance. > > naw. xena could have called, and did call on, "powerful assistance" all > over the place. Yeah, but it wasn't 'on tap', as one might imagine a friendly god to be. > first of all, there was gabrielle holding her sides and laughing hysterically>. Sooo pleased you're not serious there. With 'powerful assistance' like that, who needs problems? ;) > but seriously, she had > m'lila. very powerful and a relationship whose power caused both suffering > and great benefit. Gorgeous, and a mean fighter, but not powerful in a godly way. And, sadly, mortal. > she had lao ma. very powerful. she managed to kind of > blow that relationship thus creating an exceptional arc. Yes, powerful locally in Chin, and she also had some extra-normal powers. But still not a god. Assistance limited to the Chin area. > she had a > potentially powerful ally in alti. an evil ally, admittedly, but one who > certainly taught her things. Ummm, only an ally to Evil Xena, an enemy ever after. > xena had ares, but that was conflictual thus > creating an exceptional relationship. Yes! But again, like Zeus with Hercules, not one to be relied upon all the time, or even most of the time. > she had krishna whose help she used > and i'm still flummoxed that all the xena-hos have tolerated, nay, liked > that. Baffles me too. I really really didn't like that she had to call on a god for assistance. Other than Ares, I didn't mind that, mostly because she was never going to give Ares control. > xena even had the god of eli for > awhile there. i found that *really* odd and didn't much like it. Didn't like it bigtime. I was much happier about it when I found out that Eli's god was just using Xena to do his dirty work. > the nifty thing about all the allies xena could and did call on--or maybe > teachers is a better word, tho it went beyond that imo is that, as in real > life as distinct from the iliad, her allies, or potential allies, were the > source of magnificent plots and sub-plots and arcs and angst and turmoil > and whatnot. Well yes, they were. And this was because Xena never had a cosy relationship with a patron god. Now had she got to know Athena earlier, maybe she could have had the same checkered relationship with Athena that Herc had with Zeus or Xena had with Ares - but there's the snag. Xena *already* had the relationship with Ares - - a relationship with Athena could have looked too much like 'more of the same'. I get Iferae's point about Athena and Ares bickering over who got Xena's allegiance, but I think that might have had a fairly short shelf life. Maybe if used sparingly it could have worked. > the gods and goddesses of homer, the nice quote on athena notwithstanding, > were terribly whimsical, fickle and all-powerful and mortals didn't have a > chance. as you know, the gods and goddesses filled chosen heroes with > courage and skill, smote the ones they didn't like, assumed the forms of > warriors and seers (and on one occasion a swan--tho i don't think that's in > homer) in order to have their way. as euripides says in the tag line of the > bacchae "the gods have many faces and many fates fulfill to work their > will. in vain man's expectation. god brings the unthought to be, as here we > see." > > these are not the gods and goddesses of xena. even when she encounters the > immortals, she is never really ruled or controlled. her relationship to > those powers that be is decidedly not that of her purported time. this was > essential, of course, and i think it simply mediated the ways she could > call, or refuse to call, for assistance. Yes, one thing I did like was that Xena was not a respecter of anybody's gods. (Nor was Herc, btw). Which made her submission to Krishna even more disturbing for me. Then Eli came along and I was getting really unhappy about Xena's relationship with the deities. Wasn't until her falling-out with Michael in Season 5 that I started to feel happy again. > for example, in , she actually calls on the power of ares. > but, being xena and not, for example, achilles, she outsmarts ares. yeah, > she uses his power but she uses his power for herself and the villagers and > avoids servitude and powerlessness. it's really the first clue we have that > xena is going to be a real pain in the butt for the olympians. > > cheerio, > > md cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:50:41 +0000 From: Silenus Subject: [chakram-refugees] The Debt, Friend in Need, and a fish called Wanda Ife writes >In a message dated 3/12/2004 5:50:47 AM Central Standard Time, >cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Just as we're prepared to forgive Xena, even Evil Xena, >> almost any crime (and if we won't, what are we doing on this list? :) >> I wonder if sometimes it wasn't the despair of TPTB - "okay, let's have Evil >> Xena do something really horrific and unpardonable". "They won't care, >> they'll still forgive her". > >I wonder if it's Xena's dedication to "cleaning up" her messes that allowed >us to forgive her. If she'd dedicated herself to good present and future acts, >would we feel the same way about her if she'd apologized for her past, but >not taken responsibility for the consequences? Would we have been as forgiving >if we'd learned about some of her excesses earlier on, before she'd captured >our hearts as someone trying to make amends? TPTB certainly pushed the >envelope by making her crimes worse than initially suggested. > I wonder if we are guilty of beautism? Would we forgive Xena so readily if she was ugly? We certainly seem to have some reason for making allowances for her, far more than we would in real life. Maybe it's because we see Xena as a metaphor for the whole of humanity. We are capable of such atrocities. Are we really no more than a particularly vicious species of monkey, a hopeless evolutionary cul-de-sac? Or can we rise above our base instincts through intelligence, compassion, understanding and love? Xena says we can. >The irony is the relatively little thought they gave to the Gabdrag -- a >present-day deed done to a loved one, which perhaps alienated more fans than >anything Xena did in her evil days. TPTB regretted the few extra seconds they >gave >that scene, but I'm not sure they ever realized the ultimate weight it could >carry vs. all the atrocities against humanity in general that they spent time >worrying about. > >There are those who still have the Gabdrag seared into their brains, yet >remain fans of the show. I wonder how that impacted their view of Xena. If >they >never really watched because of Xena herself, did that scene make the >character worse or more worth dismissing? Did they ever really forgive Xena? >If >they did, did they simply separate that scene from their appreciation of other >aspects? Did they forgive her because of her state of mind and later regret? > >-- Ife My only problem with it was that in being so long it became unbelievable. No-one could possibly survive that. That may seem a strange objection, what with gods and mysterious undersea worlds and what-not going on, but that's how it struck me. It seemed to fit into the flow of events and the persona I saw for Xena perfectly. - -- "Well, congratulations! Looks like we're a two-horse family." - Xena: "Animal Attraction" Silenus, an over-exuberant fan ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:22:05 +1300 From: NZJester Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] whalerider and legacy At 01:44 am 12/03/2004 -0600, Lilli wrote: >He looked so familiar. when i saw whalerider several weeks ago, i >didn't realize until tonight that Rawiri Paratene, who played Koro, >Pai's grandfather, was the same actor who played Tazere, Korah's father >in the episode "Legacy." Just a lightbulb tonight realizing it, and >remembering what I neglected to say last week, when I talked about >Whalerider, that all the actors in that film were so good. Vicky >Haughton, who played Pai's grandmother, in Whalerider, was also so >powerful, especially in the scene near the end where she believe Pai has >drowned. Does anyone know what other movies these two actors played in? I don't know about what other movies hes been in but when I was a kid Rawiri Paratene was on the NZ version of "Play School" based on the British children's show of the same name Even though he has been on the NZ soap "Shortland street" For people of my age I think we will always remember him as the guy from Play School - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Catch ya later NZJester - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:46:22 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Hope (Was Re: Message from Lucy about the benefit) In a message dated 3/12/2004 10:16:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, aemoses@comcast.net writes: > interesting. i don't frame it as "hope." hope is not something i rely on > much. i suppose i'm more pragmatic or something. and you know, i never see > xena as being hopeful. gabrielle is hopeful, i think, and it's something i > don't relate to well although it doesn't bother me. > > the power, energy and caring, though, are very much parts of xena along with > risk-taking and having fun, in her unique and delightful way. > Funny, isn't it, what we each took away about that. I'm like you about "hope,"personally and in my perception of both Xena and Lucy. It's not a word I would use about Xena, maybe because it seems too dependent on external factors. I saw her as relying on herself and taking calculated risks. Yes, I see Gabrielle as encouraging Xena's faith in others, but it was usually based on her instincts about the person. Xena hoped Hope would be the child Gabs wanted and initially put aside her misgivings, only to regret it later. Same thing with Aiden and Najara. I think this was summed up in her skepticism about things that seem too good to be true. Gabrielle, on the other hand, was willing to take the chance -- hope -- that it would be true. "Please be good," Gabrielle prayed about Hope. Xena did pray -- hope -- in Return of Callisto that Gabrielle's light wouldn't go out, as she realized that she couldn't control Gabs' decision about that. She had to rely on her faith in Gabs, which became a major aspect of their relationship, which is why Gabs' betrayal was so devestating. Xena also relied on Khrishna and Eli when she knew her own efforts wouldn't be enough. In terms of herself, I'm not sure hope was that much of a factor in Xena's quest to make amends, so much as a dogged determination to do whatever it took to *make* herself better. If there was an element of hope, perhaps it was in hoping her efforts would help and be experienced by others as helpful. But her actions weren't usually based on that. As for Lucy, I see her as an optimistic person, but grounded in her own belief that hard work and a positive attitude pay off. That if you keep the waters churning, are willing to stay in the fray no matter what, to constantly prepare yourself for what comes up and take every chance as an opportunity, something positive will come of it. I think she approaches people like that as well - -- not so much hoping they'll be all right, but expecting them to be and being willing to share herself in ways that enable others to help her reach her goals. Sort of the self-fulfilling prophecy. I think Lucy's different from Xena in trusting her own inclination to be a good person, in believing there's positive energy "out there" that can make dreams a reality, in opening herself up to and seeking help from others, in truly feeling a connection with people in a way that was difficult for a guarded person like Xena. I think she's like Gabrielle in her ideals about what's good for people and the world, in her willingness to defend others "just because." However, like Xena, Lucy doesn't leave to chance what she can influence herself. If she says, "I hope it works out," you can bet she''ll be a major factor in making that happen. I believe her request for positive vibes and physical support from her fans is a genuine part of preparing herself for this challenge, just as Xena might rally her troops for a battle she can't win alone, drawing strength from the collective spirit to prevail. I'm not dismissing the importance of hope "just because." Gabrielle's willingness to put herself on the line, to work for a good outcome, were an important aspect of her hope. She had no way of knowing what would happen when she went out to the Horde, only the belief that these were human belings who deserved compassion. I definitely respected her ability to see the potential for good in situations she couldn't predict or control, which involved seemingly bad people. I simply see her hope as more external to herself -- an ideal based on the potential of the world around her -- than Xena's self-reliance or Lucy's optimism, which I see as more grounded in their internal potential, their own efforts to making something happen. As you say, I tend to relate more to the self-reliance aspect. I'm not sure how much that shapes how I define "hope" or see it as represented by Xena, Gabs or Lucy. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:55:05 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Debt, Friend in Need, and a fish called Wanda On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:50, Silenus wrote: > Ife writes > > >In a message dated 3/12/2004 5:50:47 AM Central Standard Time, > >cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > > Just as we're prepared to forgive Xena, even Evil Xena, > > > >> almost any crime (and if we won't, what are we doing on this list? :) > >> I wonder if sometimes it wasn't the despair of TPTB - "okay, let's have > >> Evil Xena do something really horrific and unpardonable". "They won't > >> care, they'll still forgive her". > > > >I wonder if it's Xena's dedication to "cleaning up" her messes that > > allowed us to forgive her. If she'd dedicated herself to good present > > and future acts, would we feel the same way about her if she'd apologized > > for her past, but not taken responsibility for the consequences? Would > > we have been as forgiving if we'd learned about some of her excesses > > earlier on, before she'd captured our hearts as someone trying to make > > amends? TPTB certainly pushed the envelope by making her crimes worse > > than initially suggested. > > I wonder if we are guilty of beautism? I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised - but so what? It's human nature. Everyone wants to be beautiful in some way or other. (But see my next paragraph). > Would we forgive Xena so readily if she was ugly? Depends how you define 'beautiful' or 'ugly'. It's not just looks (though they help). But character counts for a lot, too. For example, Glenda Jackson, whose looks are (IMO and no offence intended) extremely plain, bordering on ugly. But she has heaps of 'presence'. Ditto Jack Nicholson, who could never be said to be handsome, but when he walks on screen you notice it. On the other hand, many 'beautiful' people, if their apparent brains don't match their looks, can seem vacuous - Baywatch blonde bimbos. Personally, I find 'ugly' more interesting than 'plain'. So to answer your point - I think we forgive 'sympathetic' characters much more readily. An example being Ken in Fish Called Wanda, I don't think you'd ever call him good-looking. So I'd say, though Xena's good looks undoubtedly help in establishing her as a sympathetic character, they're not essential to it. > We certainly seem to have some reason for making > allowances for her, far more than we would in real life. That's 'cos we 'know' her better, I think. We 'know' her as well as we would our best friend. And also, of course, deep down we know that her 'crimes' are just fantasy and nobody actually got hurt, therefore (unlike discovering that our best friend just murdered somebody), our social conscience doesn't nag us to do anything about it. > Maybe it's > because we see Xena as a metaphor for the whole of humanity. We are > capable of such atrocities. Are we really no more than a particularly > vicious species of monkey, a hopeless evolutionary cul-de-sac? Or can we > rise above our base instincts through intelligence, compassion, > understanding and love? Xena says we can. I don't think it's that at all. Nothing so intellectual. (At least, IMO). I think it's a personal thing. After all, didn't we all love Callisto, simply because she had style and looked so striking (there's that beautism thing again! :), long before we really found out what set her off on her course of vengeance. > >The irony is the relatively little thought they gave to the Gabdrag -- a > >present-day deed done to a loved one, which perhaps alienated more fans > > than anything Xena did in her evil days. TPTB regretted the few extra > > seconds they gave > >that scene, but I'm not sure they ever realized the ultimate weight it > > could carry vs. all the atrocities against humanity in general that they > > spent time worrying about. > > > >There are those who still have the Gabdrag seared into their brains, yet > >remain fans of the show. I wonder how that impacted their view of Xena. > > If they > >never really watched because of Xena herself, did that scene make the > >character worse or more worth dismissing? Did they ever really forgive > > Xena? If > >they did, did they simply separate that scene from their appreciation of > > other aspects? Did they forgive her because of her state of mind and > > later regret? > > > >-- Ife > > My only problem with it was that in being so long it became > unbelievable. No-one could possibly survive that. That may seem a > strange objection, what with gods and mysterious undersea worlds and > what-not going on, but that's how it struck me. It seemed to fit into > the flow of events and the persona I saw for Xena perfectly. 50 seconds on screen, IIRC. (I think I timed it because some people were claiming it lasted 5 minutes). It didn't strike me that way but then, being a non-Gabfan, I probably didn't 'feel' it as much. But if you're saying that it seemed in character for Xena, yes I agree. I was a little surprised that Xena did it, I think given a few more minutes' build-up with Ares 'working' on Xena, it would have seemed entirely credible rather than just 75% credible, but of course that Xena-Ares scene couldn't have been prolonged too much without starting to drag. (No pun intended :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:24:05 -0600 From: "Janice Stewart" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Warrior Women Actually I was thinking there might be people there who would also send letters or emails to the Discovery Channel requesting that they air the series. But, hey, whatever works. I believe this is what they call brain-storming. Janice - ----- Original Message ----- > > Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:38:54 EST > From: IfeRae@aol.com > Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Warrior Women > > In a message dated 3/11/2004 6:54:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, > xwpacolyte@comcast.net writes: > > > Here's a thought. If any of you have any connections with a school or > > university, you may want to share the information about the Warrior Women > > documentary with the Womens' Studies Department or maybe the History > > Department. > > > > > > Are you thinking maybe these schools can obtain good copies for showing? > Also, I wonder if Oxygen, Lifetime or some other station could buy the rights. > Anybody know how all that works? Another option might be writing to > potentially sympathetic media folks who might inquire of the US Discovery folks why they > won't be showing such a well-received series. > > - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #74 *************************************