From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #58 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, February 27 2004 Volume 04 : Number 058 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Re: Ambiguities in XWP [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] CNN.com article on Dickson [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Other PacRen Shows [meredith ] [chakram-refugees] X:WP Alumni on _24_ [meredith ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Other PacRen Shows [Sarah Anne Packard Hudson's laugh in that seen, for some reason, really struck me as being > forced and hollow. The play of emotions across Lucy's face though > really struck a chord in me! > > Ditto! Hudson's comments definitely suggest that was her goal. Lucy played it like it didn't matter. (In Velasca's words, "Oh, she's gotta go.") It was like all the damage, all the chances, all the potential damage Cally represented -- old pain and immediate pain -- flashed across Xena's face. and that was contrasted with the relatively understated and straightforward, "No more living for you." Both women gave wonderfully layered performances in keeping with their view of their characters, regardless of the other character's (or the writers') intent. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:40:56 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) In a message dated 2/25/2004 1:48:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >I was speaking of "space" in the context of negotiation betwen the > >characters in terms of how they'll operate together relationship. > > Well, at that stage, I don't think there was a relationship. Xena didn't > particularly want Gabs along but she couldn't shake her off. >> "Quickie" or not, they decided to be "friends" in the first ep. That's not some time of "relationship" to you? And I find it hard to believe Xena couldn't have shaken Gabs off permanently any time she wanted. > > > >Early > >on, Xena didn't give Gabs much space to mess up, give suggestions, > >particpate or whatever when it came to certain missions, because she didn't > >let/ask Gabs go along. Xena went solo. To me that's not "giving space" in > >terms of letting Gabs do the above in those situations. That's denying the > >possibility that Gabs will have any space to work in. I'm not saying Xena > >was wrong. I just see that differently than giving Gabs space to leave if > >she wanted or to do what she wanted that wasn't dangerous. > > Ah, see I would have called it much _opportunity_ to mess up etc etc. >> Whatever works. At least I think you get the general idea of what I was saying. > >I don't know much about physics and such, but aren't there laws about > >matter occupying the same space? > > I rather think you're thinking of somebody's (was it Pauli's?) Exclusion > Principle, which says in effect that two particles cannot occupy the same > space at the same time. I think it actually refers to electron orbits. > Not really relevant to the argument, even metaphorically, I think. >> A physicist on another list related various principles to relationships, especially in terms of attraction and emplosion (?). That might be too subtexty for you, plus there's no way in Tartarus I want to go further with this, so let's leave it alone. > Your 'space' is too metaphysical for me. I tend to be literal-minded > about > words. To me, space is that which is measured in three dimensions. If I > figuratively talk about 'my space' I mean a physical area which I am > occupying. Or using, or working in. So, to me, someone who takes off > over > the horizon and leaves me to it cannot possibly be intruding on my space.>> Exactly! You don't have to worry about whether they're getting too close, how often they do that, etc. That's why I discounted the notion that giving Gabs' "space" to leave was as significant to X&G's interactions as the times when Gabs was -- to use your definition -- literally in Xena's space. It's also why I gave less value to Xena's going off to do her thing and left Gabs to sit (preferably where Xena left her) doing her thing. They're still not literally in each other's space, needing to figure out comfortable distances. I actually like your literal view, but got into a more "metaphysical" one because of KT's use of "space." My gyrations were because I was trying to 'splain myself using her words. > >>In later S4, Gabs had *no* abilities as a fighter. Zero. Zilch. > >>(And if > >>anything, she was even more preachy about it than in earlier seasons). > >>The > >>egregious Eli saw to that, he neutralised her. So you're right, Ife.>> > > > >I wasn't saying that. Gabs did have abilities, which she chose not to use > >-- at least in the same way. > > Which, in practical terms, is identical with not having those abilities at > all. Like a gun that isn't loaded. >> No, it's more like a gun that *is* loaded, but not fired. You still know it could be lethal if you chose to use it -- which Gabs did in Ides. That's very different from early Gabs. > >She still managed to save Amarice's butt, her > >own butt and ultimately Xena's butt (if temporarily). This didn't impact > >Xena much, as she simply reverted back to the take-all-comers style of > >previous years. But, again, my point was that Xena's conflictedness had > >nothing to do with whether or not Gabs fought, or how well. > > Umm. Agreed, the roots of Xena's uncertainty weren't in Gabs' (effective) > lack of fighting ability, but I think Xena's unease was increased by the > fact > that Gabs couldn't (wouldn't, whatever) look after herself. >> I didn't get that. I remember at the end of The Convert, when she tells Gabs she's cool with being the fighter of the two. But just in case, she had Amarice look out for Gabs. It didn't stop Xena from going after Pompey, Caesar, etc., in favor of staying behind to protect Gabs. Perhaps "unease" is true, but I didn't see it affecting Xena's uncertainty. > > > >>>I saw Xena trying to stay with Gabs despite the vision. She can't come > >>>up with anything herself, so she follows Gabs' lead when possible. > >> > >>I think it was more that Xena was preoccupied and confused, than that she > >>was > >>actively following Gabs' lead. She woulda followed Joxer just as > >>readily, had he been there instead. >> > > > > I think I must be speaking Martian. I say, "Xen was conflicted, > >uncertain, so she turned more to Gabs and didn't follow her own instincts > >as she usually did." Somehow that gets translated into, "Xena upped and > >decided to follow Gabs because she suddenly thought that would be a cool > >thing to do." As to following Joxer or any fool, I said Xena was > >conflicted, not brain dead. > > I just don't see it as 'following Gabs' lead' as if Xena was doing it by > careful choice. I just think she went along with anything anybody (which > in > this context is usually Gabs) suggested. Certainly not because she saw it > as 'a cool thing to do'. I don't see it as a sudden endorsement of Gabs' > generalship. >> I give up. The Martian just ain't workin.' > >>This all started because KT said she didn't see Xena acting > >differently toward Gabs. I said Gabs didn't *cause* any of the > >differences, so much as Xena treated Gabs differently because of her own > >inner turmoil about the vision. If Xena didn't treat Gabs or situations > >involving Gabs differently, I saw few other instances where we would've had > >such strong evidence that Xena wasn't herself. > > Uh. OK. I get what you're saying. >> Thanks the gods! > > > However, my view is that much of Xena's uncertainty came from her fear that > she was somehow going to be responsible for Gabs getting crucified. So to > me, Gabs was an indirect cause of Xena 'not being herself'. Not because of > > anything she did, just that she was there. Had she been safe and far away, > > Xena would have been less apprehensive. This is why she tried (as KT said) > > to give Gabs away even more than usual in S4. >> Where o where did I say differently? All I wanted to get across was that I didn't think Gabs *did* anything in particular to cause Xena's conflictedness. Gabs was not responsible for the vision. Gabs was not responsible for how Xena reacted to the vision. Yes, I absolutely agree that concern for Gabs was at the root of Xena's fear and indecisiveness. I saw that reflected in Xena's behavior toward Gabs and anything connected to Gabs. it was all about what Alti put in Xena's head. And Xena unwittingly allowed Alti to dictate the WP's emotions and behavior -- her fate, if you will -- because of that. When Xena decided she would not let that rule her anymore, she almost succeeded in making Alti's vision for her a lie. She would've, if not for Cally's interference. I think that's important, which gets kind of lost if we focus too much on Gabs' quest or peaceful ways. No matter what Gabs did, it wouldn't have changed Xena's conflictedness. It wouldn't have changed the vision in Xena's head. *Xena* had to make that happen within herself. > >>And Xena's defeat by Najara, who she would normally have wiped the floor > >>with > >>- that was hardly her kick-butt self, was it? How did Gabs cause that? > >> >> > > > >She didn't. Xena allowed herself to underestimate Najara, mainly because > >she *wanted* to believe Najara was good for Gabs. Xena also still had the > >vision in the back of her mind. As you recall, the bit with Najara was in > >it too. > > Ah, I was just following up on your "Most of the indecisiveness comes out in > > her interactions with Gabrielle or in situations related to Gabs. > Otherwise, > Xena's her usual decisive, kick-butt self " - I was pointing out that > Xena's > defeat by Najara wasn't (IMO) directly Gab-related. It was certainly a > failure of Xena's 'kick-butt self' though. >> You know, I can't for the life of me understand why a behaviorist such as yourself keeps going to issues of blame. I asked myself, "What did Xena do to give me clues to what was going on inside her head?" I realized that it got communicated to me in Xena's interactions with Gabs. I then asked myself, "What is Gabs doing that might make Xena behave that way?" I realized Gabs really wasn't doing much different than usual. KT said she didn't see Xena doing anything differently where Gabs was concerned. I said that was the main reason I knew Xena wasn't herself. It was all about behavior for me, all about the bits and pieces I saw that added up to Xena's conflictedness. The most significant pieces centered around her responses to Aiden and Najara, when she was literally "of two minds" in terms of assessing and dealing with them. primarily because she wanted so badly for Gabs to be safe and happy. To me, that "split" focus (the vision in her head vs. her senses about her physical world) resulted in her not paying sufficient attention to what was right in front of her. With Najara, she literally turned her back on it too soon, let it sneak up on her and nearly let it defeat her. She almost did the same with Aiden. > I thought Xena kidnapped the girl precisely because Gabby insisted that she > > did so? That the whole thing was instigated by Gabs? Or do I > misremember? >> No, I think you're right about that. I was focusing on Xena's initial certainty that little good would come out of their interference -- "Get the kid. Return the kid. Get out." I agree that her early response was conflicted, tho it didn't seem unusually so to me. I mean, I didn't feel it was driven by her obsession with the vision, so much as her usual skepticism. Her acquiescence to Gabs also seemed fairly in keeping with the usual give and take between them, as opposed to Xena simply backing off and not continuing to check things out, like she did with Aiden and Najara. But I don't see that as a particularly noteworthy distinction, even if there's some merit to it. I'm perfectly happy to give you Gabs' influence in this case. - -- Ife - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:36:43 EST From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] CNN.com article on Dickson Designs on an Oscar Double nominee's work reflects 'Rings' fantasy, 'Samurai' history From Alesia Stanford Daily News from Entertainment Weekly Thursday, February 26, 2004 Posted: 3:58 PM EST (2058 GMT) LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- A few years ago, Ngila Dickson's main claim to fame stateside was designing costumes for the cult TV series, "Xena: Warrior Princess." But today, she has the inside track on Hollywood immortality, with two Oscar nominations in a single category. Dickson will vie with herself and three others for this year's Academy Award in costume design, having been nominated for her work on both "The Last Samurai" and "Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King." While the recognition may come as quickly as it takes to open an envelope February 29, the work that led to it took hours upon hours of research, design and production. For the three "Lord of the Rings" films, Dickson headed a team of 50 tailors, embroiders, cobblers and jewelers for Middle Earth's nine distinct cultures - -- about 150 costumes per, according to the movies' official Web site. Many individual costumes had to be made in two sizes: one for the actor, the other for "scale doubles" often used in filming. Each outfit required intricate detail as described by -- or, more often, inspired by -- J.R.R. Tolkein's literary epic. For example, designers hand-stitched chain mail (medieval battle armor) one link at a time to fit over soldiers' battlefield uniforms, which typically featured imagery such as the star and white tree of Gondor, one of humankind's capital cities in the film. "We wanted to keep the soldier element with this [so that] it was true to the idea of the age," said Dickson. Other outfits required more subtlety, such as the dress worn by Arwen, played by Liv Tyler, when her husband Aragorn (Viggo Mortensen) is crowned king in "Return of the King". The biggest challenge, said Dickson, was creating the "the softness and the luminosity that we wanted for that moment." "I still wanted it to be almost a bridal gown at the same time it was a coronation gown," she said, describing the long dye process to find the "right green." "I knew that this character should come from this crown and [envisioned] a huge butterfly that came out from behind her head. And then it slowly came down into something more refined, but the butterfly image is still there at the back." Almost a decade of work Director Peter Jackson spent parts of nine years -- including seven before even the first of the three films, "The Fellowship of the Ring," appeared in theaters -- on the $270-million "Lord of the Rings" series, with his fellow New Zealander Dickson working alongside him much of the way. When filming finally wrapped on the last installment in the trilogy (which were shot back-to-back-to-back), Dickson moved on to another ambitious period blockbuster, "The Last Samurai." Sifting through hundreds of historical images, Dickson worked for 14 months with an 80-person team to create more than 2,000 costumes that properly represented the attire of commoners, nobility and soldiers in 19th-century Japan. The elaborate battle armor worn by Katsumoto, played by best supporting actor nominee Ken Watanabe, mirrors that worn by other samurai leaders of the period, said Dickson. Scouring through flea markets, her team also found kimonos from the 1930s that had been crafted in the same style as those worn in 1870s Japan. "It gave us the blueprint we needed for fabric patterns," said Dickson, noting each kimono for the movie was created by hand, just as they were in the time of the samurai. - --CNN.com Boeotian [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image001.gif] ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:02:10 -0500 From: meredith Subject: [chakram-refugees] Other PacRen Shows Hi, I just watched H:TLJ's "Les Contemptibles" ... I never really watched Herc unless there was a crossover, so I'd managed to miss this one. Fortunately, my "Danielle Cormack" TiVo WishList grabbed it for me from SciFi this week. :) God, what silliness. Those accents!!! Danielle was great, though. Fencing dockside in a corset ... be still my heart. They clearly had *way* too much fun making that episode. Speaking of SciFi, in case anyone out there isn't aware, they're running two episodes of _Cleopatra 2525_ back-to-back from 5-6 am Eastern/Pacific on Sunday mornings. (Once again, thank you TiVo. ;) I don't know what happened back when the show was on the air, but I missed a *ton* of them!! It's been kinda fun catching up. Though Cleo hasn't gotten any less annoying as time has gone by. They just don't make intentionally cheezy TV like that these days. =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:34:48 -0500 From: meredith Subject: [chakram-refugees] X:WP Alumni on _24_ Hi, I'm catching up on this week's episode of _24_. Gina Torres has been a guest star for the past several episodes, playing the wife of an influential political donor (amazingly different from every other character I've ever seen her play!). But I almost fell off the couch just now when Tony Todd (Cecrops) walked in as a federal investigator!!! They're everywhere... =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:07:09 -0500 (EST) From: Sarah Anne Packard Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Other PacRen Shows > I just watched H:TLJ's "Les Contemptibles" ... I never really watched Herc > unless there was a crossover, so I'd managed to miss this > one. Fortunately, my "Danielle Cormack" TiVo WishList grabbed it for me I can't believe you hadn't seen that one b4, it's a classic. :) And it's got Robert Trebor too! I'm completely Danielle-obsessed though, so I've seen it many times...I don't have it on tape however, hmm. She does look good in a corset. ;) > Speaking of SciFi, in case anyone out there isn't aware, they're running > two episodes of _Cleopatra 2525_ back-to-back from 5-6 am Eastern/Pacific > on Sunday mornings. (Once again, thank you TiVo. ;) I don't know what Ooh, thanks for telling us! I had no idea...I have all of Danielle's eps of Cleo 2525 (when she guested as baddie Raina, that is) on tape I think. > happened back when the show was on the air, but I missed a *ton* of > them!! It's been kinda fun catching up. Though Cleo hasn't gotten any > less annoying as time has gone by. > What ever happened to Jennifer Sky, anyway? She hasn't even done any cons in ages... > They just don't make intentionally cheezy TV like that these days. Is Cleo 2525 out on Region 1 dvd yet?? I would so buy it...I wouldn't say the same for Jack of All Trades however (although Danielle did guest on that one too!), heh heh. -Sarah, aka the abbagirl- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:38:12 -0600 From: "Janice Stewart" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) cr wrote: > > And Xena's defeat by Najara, who she would normally have wiped the floor > with > - that was hardly her kick-butt self, was it? How did Gabs cause that? >> > and IfeRae@aol.com responded: > >She didn't. Xena allowed herself to underestimate Najara, mainly because she >*wanted* to believe Najara was good for Gabs. Xena also still had the vision >in the back of her mind. As you recall, the bit with Najara was in it too. Now that you mention it, I do recall Najara being in Xena's vision. I've never thought about it before, but if Xena saw Najara in her vision, why was she willing to leave Gabrielle with her? Seems like she would've grabbed Gabby and headed for the hills. There must be something I'm not remembering correctly here. Comments anyone? XWPacolyte Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #58 *************************************