From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #57 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, February 26 2004 Volume 04 : Number 057 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Ambiguities in XWP (was Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (2)) [IfeR] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) [IfeRae@aol.com] [Fwd: Re: Ambiguities in XWP (was Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (2))] ["Mark B." ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Melinda Clarke [Sarah Anne Packard I really couldn't see that Gabs falling down the hole > should really make Callisto so happy - it's not like she was one of the > charter members of the Can't-Stand-Gabby Society - so her amusement would > have to be faked as a provocation into making Xena kill her. > Yep, if hearing Xena's scream at Solan's death didn't do it, why would Gabs' death give Cally such life-affirming pleasure? Hudon knew here character through and through, as well as the purpose Cally served in Xena's life. I believe she was absolutely right in believing the character wanted nothing but oblivion. That said, the fact that her opinion differed from the intended version, I think the two "takes" melded to form another layer of irony and ambiguity that made the scene more powerful than either a "na na na na na, I won" from either Xena or Cally. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:25:21 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) In a message dated 2/23/2004 12:43:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:20, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >>-- her own conflictedness, her > >>greater openness > >> > >>>to giving Gabs space, > KT: > > >>No, again I'd have to argue with this as being typical, not new. She > >>never stopped Gab from doing anything. >> > Ife: > > >Perhaps we see "space" differently. Early on, Xena essentially denied > >Gabrielle space by going solo, as in Chariots, Path Not Taken, Death in > >Chains, Mortal Beloved. > > Hey, that's not denying Gabs 'space', that's complete double-talk. Xena > was doing her own thing, and trying to do it away from Gabs. Gabs could do > > what she liked in the entire rest of the world. Are you saying that Gabs' > 'space' demanded that she be 'in' on everything Xena did? If so, Gabs had > no business, no standing and no right to demand that. That would be > denying Xena her own 'space'. That's just plain nosey interference. >> I was speaking of "space" in the context of negotiation betwen the characters in terms of how they'll operate together relationship. Early on, Xena didn't give Gabs much space to mess up, give suggestions, particpate or whatever when it came to certain missions, because she didn't let/ask Gabs go along. Xena went solo. To me that's not "giving space" in terms of letting Gabs do the above in those situations. That's denying the possibility that Gabs will have any space to work in. I'm not saying Xena was wrong. I just see that differently than giving Gabs space to leave if she wanted or to do what she wanted that wasn't dangerous. > > >Other times, she drew parameters around the space > >-- e.g., taking the breast dagger away from Gabs, warning Gabs not to talk > >to Petracles, ordering her around in the Price. Or, she gave Gabs the > >space to leave entirely (e.g., for the Academy, to marry Perdy or go back > >to Poteidaia), which would no longer necessitate any negotiations about > >space. > > Precisely. Gabs didn't like it, Gabs didn't have to stick around. This > was _all_ Xena's business that Gabs was getting herself mixed up in. > Xena's > 'advice' was usually for Gabs' own good and Gabby would have done well to > take notice, not that she ever did. But I don't recall Xena ever poking > herself into Gabby's world or wanting to. > > Ife, your concept of 'space' evidently does not fit with anything Newton or > Einstein would recognise ;) >> I don't know much about physics and such, but aren't there laws about matter occupying the same space? If Gabrielle isn't there, she's not occupying the same space. If she's in the space, there's some dynamic between the two going on in terms of how that space will filled. If they drift too far apart, then they're not in the same space in any way that will cause them to interact with each other. Howsomever, I'm using "space" to mean how much freedom people give each other in terms of what they do together as well as separately. Xena gave Gabs space to do "Gabs" stuff, but not to do "Xena" stuff when it came to fighting. In later seasons, the fighting became "Xena and Gabs" stuff. > >To me, working with Gabs as a full partner vs. leaving Gabs in a tavern is > >a major change in Xena's attitude and behavior. "I know what's best" or > >"stay here and twiddle your thumbs" or "get behind me" were based more on > >Gabs' lack of experience in the beginning. As we both seem to agree, Xena > >no longer operated like that by S4. Her behavior in S4 wasn't based on > >Gabs' abilities as a fighter, but on Xena's own conflictedness. > > In later S4, Gabs had *no* abilities as a fighter. Zero. Zilch. (And > if > anything, she was even more preachy about it than in earlier seasons). The > > egregious Eli saw to that, he neutralised her. So you're right, Ife.>> I wasn't saying that. Gabs did have abilities, which she chose not to use -- at least in the same way. She still managed to save Amarice's butt, her own butt and ultimately Xena's butt (if temporarily). This didn't impact Xena much, as she simply reverted back to the take-all-comers style of previous years. But, again, my point was that Xena's conflictedness had nothing to do with whether or not Gabs fought, or how well. > >I saw Xena trying to stay with Gabs despite the vision. She can't come up > >with anything herself, so she follows Gabs' lead when possible. > > I think it was more that Xena was preoccupied and confused, than that she > was > actively following Gabs' lead. She woulda followed Joxer just as readily, > had he been there instead. >> I think I must be speaking Martian. I say, "Xen was conflicted, uncertain, so she turned more to Gabs and didn't follow her own instincts as she usually did." Somehow that gets translated into, "Xena upped and decided to follow Gabs because she suddenly thought that would be a cool thing to do." As to following Joxer or any fool, I said Xena was conflicted, not brain dead. > >We can't see what's going on in Xena's head, except when she's thinking > >about the vision. We know that one result is indecisiveness, which we can > >only get through observing what she does or says. My perception is that > >most of the indecisiveness comes out in her interactions with Gabrielle or > >in situations related to Gabs. Otherwise, Xena's her usual decisive, > >kick-butt self -- fighting Pompey and Caesar, asking villagers to burn > >down their homes, going to prison, kidnaping that girl from the Horde, > >fighting the slavers Najara tells them about. > > > >Maybe I'm missing something. What makes Xena seem strange, insecure, > >indecisive, etc. that doesn't involve what she says to or how she treats > >Gabrielle? If what Xena says or does regarding Gabs is the same as always, > >then what else is so "disconcertingly" different? > > > > -- Ife > > So what you're saying is, Gabs is the primary reason for Xena not being 'all > > there' in Season 4? Maybe you're right. Doesn't make me regard the > blonde kid with any more warmth, though. :) >> There goes that Martian again. I'll try again. Xena sees vision of Gabs dying on a cross and herself helpless to stop it. Vision upsets Xena. Xena gets weird, not sure whether to hover over Gabs or leave her. She loses confidence in her instincts, her judgment and focus. I submit that the main way we know this is because of how Xena acts when Gabs is in danger or has gotten interested in someone Xena ordinarily wouldn't trust so much. This all started because KT said she didn't see Xena acting differently toward Gabs. I said Gabs didn't *cause* any of the differences, so much as Xena treated Gabs differently because of her own inner turmoil about the vision. If Xena didn't treat Gabs or situations involving Gabs differently, I saw few other instances where we would've had such strong evidence that Xena wasn't herself. > << And I can't blame > Xena's desire to go to jail on Gabs.>> I'm not *blaming* Gabs for anything. I'm not saying Gabs *caused* anything. The jail thing is about the only instance that doesn't directly involve Gabs. However, Xena isn't acting conflicted or indecisive, either. She makes up her mind and does it, despite Gabs' pleadings. She lets herself get mistreated in prison only to the point where she's trying to follow the rules she's essentially agreed to. > > And Xena's defeat by Najara, who she would normally have wiped the floor > with > - that was hardly her kick-butt self, was it? How did Gabs cause that? >> > She didn't. Xena allowed herself to underestimate Najara, mainly because she *wanted* to believe Najara was good for Gabs. Xena also still had the vision in the back of her mind. As you recall, the bit with Najara was in it too. > > Come to that, kidnapping the girl from the Horde was hardly Xena's > 'decisive > self' - on that occasion she did do just what Gabby told her to. >> No, she argued strenuously against Gabs' openmindedness at first. Didn't want to hear it. It was only after Xena heard the Horde father screaming in genuine pain for his "daughter," that Xena began seeing him as human and thinking maybe Gabs was right. Xena was her usual stubborn decisive self before and her usual flexibly decisive self once the mission unfolded. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:46:05 -0600 From: "Mark B." Subject: [Fwd: Re: Ambiguities in XWP (was Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (2))] ...snip... >>Actually, if you remember, Callisto liked to get at Xena through Gabrielle. >>In Return of Callisto, she was originally going to kill Gabrielle to do >>that, but couldn't get to her, and so killed Perdicus instead. ("that'll >>do"). My sense is that Gab's death made her happy because of exactly >>that...it was a way, again, that Callisto could feel "good" about seeing >>Xena in pain because her friend had died. >> >>Lilli > > > But, as Callisto found in Maternal Instincts when Solan died, that was a > hollow victory. It didn't strike me that Callisto was getting any > satisfaction (in the sense of revenge) from Gabs's death. In fact, by > Sacrifice 2, she'd given up trying to make Xena suffer. > > cr Hudson's laugh in that seen, for some reason, really struck me as being forced and hollow. The play of emotions across Lucy's face though really struck a chord in me! Mark > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:32:54 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:25, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/23/2004 12:43:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:20, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >>-- her own conflictedness, her > > >>greater openness > > >> > > >>>to giving Gabs space, > > KT: > > >>No, again I'd have to argue with this as being typical, not new. She > > >>never stopped Gab from doing anything. >> > > Ife: > > >Perhaps we see "space" differently. Early on, Xena essentially denied > > >Gabrielle space by going solo, as in Chariots, Path Not Taken, Death in > > >Chains, Mortal Beloved. > > > > Hey, that's not denying Gabs 'space', that's complete double-talk. Xena > > was doing her own thing, and trying to do it away from Gabs. Gabs could > > do > > what she liked in the entire rest of the world. Are you saying that > > Gabs' 'space' demanded that she be 'in' on everything Xena did? If so, > > Gabs had no business, no standing and no right to demand that. That > > would be denying Xena her own 'space'. That's just plain nosey > > interference. >> > > I was speaking of "space" in the context of negotiation betwen the > characters in terms of how they'll operate together relationship. Well, at that stage, I don't think there was a relationship. Xena didn't particularly want Gabs along but she couldn't shake her off. > Early > on, Xena didn't give Gabs much space to mess up, give suggestions, > particpate or whatever when it came to certain missions, because she didn't > let/ask Gabs go along. Xena went solo. To me that's not "giving space" in > terms of letting Gabs do the above in those situations. That's denying the > possibility that Gabs will have any space to work in. I'm not saying Xena > was wrong. I just see that differently than giving Gabs space to leave if > she wanted or to do what she wanted that wasn't dangerous. Ah, see I would have called it much _opportunity_ to mess up etc etc. > > >Other times, she drew parameters around the space > > >-- e.g., taking the breast dagger away from Gabs, warning Gabs not to > > > talk to Petracles, ordering her around in the Price. Or, she gave Gabs > > > the space to leave entirely (e.g., for the Academy, to marry Perdy or > > > go back to Poteidaia), which would no longer necessitate any > > > negotiations about space. > > > > Precisely. Gabs didn't like it, Gabs didn't have to stick around. > > This was _all_ Xena's business that Gabs was getting herself mixed up in. > > Xena's > > 'advice' was usually for Gabs' own good and Gabby would have done well to > > take notice, not that she ever did. But I don't recall Xena ever poking > > herself into Gabby's world or wanting to. > > > > Ife, your concept of 'space' evidently does not fit with anything Newton > > or Einstein would recognise ;) >> > > I don't know much about physics and such, but aren't there laws about > matter occupying the same space? I rather think you're thinking of somebody's (was it Pauli's?) Exclusion Principle, which says in effect that two particles cannot occupy the same space at the same time. I think it actually refers to electron orbits. Not really relevant to the argument, even metaphorically, I think. > If Gabrielle isn't there, she's not > occupying the same space. If she's in the space, there's some dynamic > between the two going on in terms of how that space will filled. If they > drift too far apart, then they're not in the same space in any way that > will cause them to interact with each other. Howsomever, I'm using "space" > to mean how much freedom people give each other in terms of what they do > together as well as separately. Xena gave Gabs space to do "Gabs" stuff, > but not to do "Xena" stuff when it came to fighting. In later seasons, the > fighting became "Xena and Gabs" stuff. Your 'space' is too metaphysical for me. I tend to be literal-minded about words. To me, space is that which is measured in three dimensions. If I figuratively talk about 'my space' I mean a physical area which I am occupying. Or using, or working in. So, to me, someone who takes off over the horizon and leaves me to it cannot possibly be intruding on my space. > > >To me, working with Gabs as a full partner vs. leaving Gabs in a tavern > > > is a major change in Xena's attitude and behavior. "I know what's > > > best" or "stay here and twiddle your thumbs" or "get behind me" were > > > based more on Gabs' lack of experience in the beginning. As we both > > > seem to agree, Xena no longer operated like that by S4. Her behavior > > > in S4 wasn't based on Gabs' abilities as a fighter, but on Xena's own > > > conflictedness. > > > > In later S4, Gabs had *no* abilities as a fighter. Zero. Zilch. > > (And if > > anything, she was even more preachy about it than in earlier seasons). > > The > > egregious Eli saw to that, he neutralised her. So you're right, Ife.>> > > I wasn't saying that. Gabs did have abilities, which she chose not to use > -- at least in the same way. Which, in practical terms, is identical with not having those abilities at all. Like a gun that isn't loaded. But I thought there was an implication, in the contrast between early Gabs' lack of experience and S4, that by S4 Gabs had acquired some abilities. Which would have been the case except (as I pointed out) half-way through it Eli neutralised her. > She still managed to save Amarice's butt, her > own butt and ultimately Xena's butt (if temporarily). This didn't impact > Xena much, as she simply reverted back to the take-all-comers style of > previous years. But, again, my point was that Xena's conflictedness had > nothing to do with whether or not Gabs fought, or how well. Umm. Agreed, the roots of Xena's uncertainty weren't in Gabs' (effective) lack of fighting ability, but I think Xena's unease was increased by the fact that Gabs couldn't (wouldn't, whatever) look after herself. > > >I saw Xena trying to stay with Gabs despite the vision. She can't come > > > up with anything herself, so she follows Gabs' lead when possible. > > > > I think it was more that Xena was preoccupied and confused, than that she > > was > > actively following Gabs' lead. She woulda followed Joxer just as > > readily, had he been there instead. >> > > I think I must be speaking Martian. I say, "Xen was conflicted, > uncertain, so she turned more to Gabs and didn't follow her own instincts > as she usually did." Somehow that gets translated into, "Xena upped and > decided to follow Gabs because she suddenly thought that would be a cool > thing to do." As to following Joxer or any fool, I said Xena was > conflicted, not brain dead. I just don't see it as 'following Gabs' lead' as if Xena was doing it by careful choice. I just think she went along with anything anybody (which in this context is usually Gabs) suggested. Certainly not because she saw it as 'a cool thing to do'. I don't see it as a sudden endorsement of Gabs' generalship. > > >We can't see what's going on in Xena's head, except when she's thinking > > > > > >about the vision. We know that one result is indecisiveness, which we > > > can only get through observing what she does or says. My perception is > > > that most of the indecisiveness comes out in her interactions with > > > Gabrielle or in situations related to Gabs. Otherwise, Xena's her > > > usual decisive, kick-butt self -- fighting Pompey and Caesar, asking > > > villagers to burn down their homes, going to prison, kidnaping that > > > girl from the Horde, fighting the slavers Najara tells them about. > > > > > >Maybe I'm missing something. What makes Xena seem strange, insecure, > > >indecisive, etc. that doesn't involve what she says to or how she treats > > >Gabrielle? If what Xena says or does regarding Gabs is the same as > > > always, then what else is so "disconcertingly" different? > > > > > > -- Ife > > > > So what you're saying is, Gabs is the primary reason for Xena not being > > 'all > > there' in Season 4? Maybe you're right. Doesn't make me regard the > > blonde kid with any more warmth, though. :) >> > > There goes that Martian again. I'll try again. Xena sees vision of Gabs > dying on a cross and herself helpless to stop it. Vision upsets Xena. > Xena gets weird, not sure whether to hover over Gabs or leave her. She > loses confidence in her instincts, her judgment and focus. I submit that > the main way we know this is because of how Xena acts when Gabs is in > danger or has gotten interested in someone Xena ordinarily wouldn't trust > so much. This all started because KT said she didn't see Xena acting > differently toward Gabs. I said Gabs didn't *cause* any of the > differences, so much as Xena treated Gabs differently because of her own > inner turmoil about the vision. If Xena didn't treat Gabs or situations > involving Gabs differently, I saw few other instances where we would've had > such strong evidence that Xena wasn't herself. Uh. OK. I get what you're saying. However, my view is that much of Xena's uncertainty came from her fear that she was somehow going to be responsible for Gabs getting crucified. So to me, Gabs was an indirect cause of Xena 'not being herself'. Not because of anything she did, just that she was there. Had she been safe and far away, Xena would have been less apprehensive. This is why she tried (as KT said) to give Gabs away even more than usual in S4. > > << And I can't blame > > Xena's desire to go to jail on Gabs.>> > > I'm not *blaming* Gabs for anything. I'm not saying Gabs *caused* > anything. The jail thing is about the only instance that doesn't directly > involve Gabs. However, Xena isn't acting conflicted or indecisive, either. > She makes up her mind and does it, despite Gabs' pleadings. She lets > herself get mistreated in prison only to the point where she's trying to > follow the rules she's essentially agreed to. If not conflicted and indecisive, then certainly Xena was acting in a way very detrimental to herself and, IMO, futile. What good would going to jail do her or anybody? But anyway, that had nothing to do with Gabs. Who, incidentally, acted quite creditably in that episode, IIRC. > > And Xena's defeat by Najara, who she would normally have wiped the floor > > with > > - that was hardly her kick-butt self, was it? How did Gabs cause that? > > >> > > She didn't. Xena allowed herself to underestimate Najara, mainly because > she *wanted* to believe Najara was good for Gabs. Xena also still had the > vision in the back of her mind. As you recall, the bit with Najara was in > it too. Ah, I was just following up on your "Most of the indecisiveness comes out in her interactions with Gabrielle or in situations related to Gabs. Otherwise, Xena's her usual decisive, kick-butt self " - I was pointing out that Xena's defeat by Najara wasn't (IMO) directly Gab-related. It was certainly a failure of Xena's 'kick-butt self' though. > > Come to that, kidnapping the girl from the Horde was hardly Xena's > > 'decisive > > self' - on that occasion she did do just what Gabby told her to. >> > > No, she argued strenuously against Gabs' openmindedness at first. Didn't > want to hear it. It was only after Xena heard the Horde father screaming > in genuine pain for his "daughter," that Xena began seeing him as human and > thinking maybe Gabs was right. Xena was her usual stubborn decisive self > before and her usual flexibly decisive self once the mission unfolded. > > -- Ife I thought Xena kidnapped the girl precisely because Gabby insisted that she did so? That the whole thing was instigated by Gabs? Or do I misremember? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:19:31 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:46, KTL wrote: > I just think that China is like Japan in "face" being very important. So I > tend to think that destroying his palace destroyed his standing and > therefore destroyed his political base. I could be wrong... > > But I think that Xena killing him was supposed to be deliberate and > unnecessary--this is part of the rift right? Well, yeah. It's a PLOT DEVICE. ;) > Where bad things happen to > cause friction between the grrls. THOUGH as you pointed out a coupla > months ago and I had totally never really realized in terms of its impact > on the story, Xena takes off to kill him right from the start. In what way? I mean, what is the impact on the story that you hadn't realised? (snip) > > BUT - hate fits much better with the selection of 'spooks' in BS than > > guilt. Ming, Khrafstar, Caesar, Ares, Callisto. She had no reason to > > feel guilty about Caesar, Khrafstar or Ares, but she had plenty of reason > > to hate all five. And, "Hate is the star". > > > > Well spotted, thanks! > > > > cr > > You're welcome! So perhaps in season three, we should say, "Show's called > Hate!"? > > KT Nah, Xena's still more interesting ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:32:57 -0500 (EST) From: Sarah Anne Packard Subject: [chakram-refugees] Melinda Clarke This has probably been mentioned ages ago, but I just finished watching the entire series of "Firefly" on dvd (for the first time), and Melinda "Velasca" Clarke guest-starred in an episode!! :) She had a major guest role too, as a feisty bordello madam who ends up dallying with the captain. Very cool. I also learned at the Burbank Xena con that she's on "The O.C." now - and I don't watch it, but I have seen her in the promo's. :) Hmm, I still can't seem to find a fan site for he though, let alone an official one...oh, and in case y'all didn't know, Gina Torres has an official site now! Twas also publicized in Burbank..the addy is www.gina-torres.com. -Sarah, aka the abbagirl- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #57 *************************************