From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #55 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, February 24 2004 Volume 04 : Number 055 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Award orphans (Was The Furies) [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Invincible ? (was Ratings) [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (3) [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:54:18 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Award orphans (Was The Furies) KT: > > Now that's fascinating! Hmmm. There is something very special about XWP I > > think, just because I know so many fans like me who never EVER watched a > > T&A action adventure show before. (One area where I do think Buffy was far > > superior to XWP. Whedon just didn't get into any of that T&A crap that I'm > > aware of, or at least it wasn't a major factor in the show like it was in > > XWP.) > CR: > Hmm, me too. I've looked at the occasional Buffy ep and found it > interesting, but it doesn't grab me the same way XWP does. (The T&A's > irrelevant to that, btw. I find it almost a distraction. Except when it's > Lucy's T&A.... ) You know the ONE time that I found it distracting rather than discriminating and panderingly dumb was in Ides. That was one magnificent ep. There's shots of Xena on the ground, screaming for Gabrielle to stop killing all those guys. And Lucy is raised up on her elbows with this look of utter desperation and horror on her face. The camera is way low and unfortunately, because of Lucy's outfit, her breasts are just dangling down and way exposed. And it's impossible to not notice them. And that sucks. That because she's a female actor, she has to work to overcome the disadvantage of her exposed cleavage in order to keep attention on her acting skill. Happily, when Creation used this in a calendar, they cut it into more of a close up. And so Lucy's acting wasn't competing with her T&A exposure. And as an aside, I'm with Lilli in the camp of Fishsticks being a horribly sexist and misogynist ep. It was as sleezy as any of the piggy boy films out there. And sure, "they" can always say, Hey, it's a joke. Where's your sense of humor? A presentation of women as vapid, air-headed, vicious, stupid, nasty morons, spending all their time and energy fighting over the attention of men is just not something I ever find amusing. But the gods know, no one would ever accuse me of having a sense of humor. KT > > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:09:00 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Award orphans (Was The Furies) Mark wrote: > I also cannot really point to any one [or two] specific things that were > done in X:WP that really 'grabbed' me. I kinda think it was the whole > package > Believe it or not, The T&A was not what grabbed me. I do believe you. Because we all know there's so much more to XWP. As I've said, many of us watched it despite the T&A. It was a stumbling block for a number of us. In the bits and > pieces of eps that I caught before I was really *hooked*, I remember > being fascinated by Xena's stoic attitude and the fact that she would > take on any number of baddies. And [being a ROCfan] Gabrielle's > character caught my attention because of her kind of spunkiness in > season 1. > I liked her a lot in the early eps. Fiesty, sticking up for herself. Charged with all the arrogance of youth. And just so curious about life and all the adventures it might bring her. Fun character. When things got so serious for her, when life hit her so hard, I missed that impulsive joy she used to have. The dark eps didn't have room for that. I was happy to see it again in You Are There--damn, that was a fun ep! > The Original Twilight Zone was great. Farscape I've watched a few > times... it > was interesting, but never hooked me. The first ep I ever saw was just flipping through channels. And we came across a scene of Chriton and Scorpius sitting in a red (I think it was red) convertible. And chatting and seeing flashbacks to earth. And it was just so weird... Then I really enjoyed Claudia Black as Aeryn Sun==I've said before, I think she's the only actor I've ever seen whom I think COULD have been a succesful Xena. Other than Lucy, of course. And I just don't think many other people could have pulled that off in a way that I would have been attracted to. Same with Buffy. Is the old > 'Outer LImits' still showing anywhere?? > > > Mark If it is, I bet it's on sci-fi. Sci-fi keeps showing commercials for the season three DVDs. And there's commercials for Eurotrip on a number of channels. It is so KEWL to be seeing Lucy again on "live" TV. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:27:12 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings > On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:04:13 -0900 (AKST), KTL > wrote: > > > But I do know I'm VERY > >happy that we got what we got post season two instead of endless > >repetitions of the happy, charming, cheerful typical eps of seasons one > >and two. Season three made me no longer somewhat embarrassed to be a > >Xena fan. Gods bless PacRen for all their creativity and risk taking. > > --*Ahem*?!? "Happy, charming, cheerful"?!? Reckoning was the first ep > that hooked me, and I wouldn't say it was "happy, charming", nor > "cheerful". ;=P > > X beating up G?? Exploring issues of domestic abuse and anger management > and manipulative exploitation? No, I wouldn't characterize that as > "happy" or "charming". ;P > > What *REALLY* drew me to XWP was the Dark. Reckoning was Dark. X got > beat up. Ares framed her. X beat up G. X was going to be > wrongfully executed unless someone did something. _That's_ Dark. Well, when I speak of simple, typical, cheerful eps, I was thinking of ones like Chariots of war, Cradle of Hope, The Titans Prometheus, Death in chains, Hooves and Harlots, The Black Wolf, Beware of Greeks, Athens City Academy, Warrior Princess, Royal Couple of Thieves, The Prodigal, Altared States, Death Mask, Giant Killer, Girls Just Want to Have Fun, Warrior Princess Tramp, Ten Little Warlords, A Solstice Carol, The Xena Scrolls, Miss Amphipolis, A Day In the Life, For Him the Bell Tolls, The Execution, Blind Faith, Ulysses, and A Comedy of Eros. You know, simple warlord of the week problems, sure with some character analysis, but nothing deep or terribly tragic. All self-contained eps that were enjoyable but didn't keep you up at night wondering how in the name of the Illysian fields was Xena gonna get outta this one. And how would these experiences change her and make her a different person? Yeah, there were a few deeper ones in season one and two. But nowhere near the number of significant, important developments like we got in later seasons. And that did as you say, open up Xena's heart and character. I liked that because I liked seeing Lucy challenged in her acting skills. And I think she certainly rose to the challenge. In the commentary of One Against An Army, she talks about how she did her best fight work for Peter Bell. Because he pushed her the most. And I think that's true for many things for many people. As a side note, it's interesting to me that Lcuy is always very self-deprecating about her stunt work. But at the cons and on the dvd's, many people mention how good she at that. What a quick study she is and how adept she is at it. (Snipped Jackie's eloquent defense of the early seasons for bandswidth sake only.) > I was never ashamed to be a XWP fan, just defensive when others thought it > was a "comic-book comedy" or something of that ilk. This was during the > time of S1/S2, when not many had discovered the show. Now people actually > look *respectfully* at me when I declare I'm a Xenite. ;P What a difference a > few years can make, eh?! And a few good, deep seasons. Mwahahahahahahahah! > > > Just MO, > --Jackie All opinions welcomed, few respected. KT ;-> ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:40:30 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings In a message dated 2/23/2004 3:39:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, silenus@simnet1.demon.co.uk writes: > Here in the UK, the show never got beyond its trashy image in > the eyes of most people. I think that's mainly because it never made it > to the mainstream terrestrial tv channels here. Buffy, for example, did > and really took off. Now Buffy is the show that gets the learned reviews > while XWP is still the campy t&a extravaganza. > Is that necessarily bad in the UK -- over the long term, I mean? Aren't there campy shows from years ago still being shown? Although ... some of the "big" eps might be a bit too "serious." You do have to sit down with the show and see it in all its variety to truly appreciate it. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:40:32 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Invincible ? (was Ratings) In a message dated 2/23/2004 3:39:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, silenus@simnet1.demon.co.uk writes: > As it was, I found Xena's defeat by Najara an awesome moment. By showing > that Xena could be beaten, they upped the stakes in all her subsequent > battles. All her achievements were more impressive because we knew they > weren't inevitable.>> Yes, I loved that she got more "human" to me during S4, with the same doubts and indecisiveness many of us face. I was saying to someone (hi there!) how surprised I was at how many middle-aged fans are on XWP lists. As I followed Xena, I identified with her earlier certainty about her actions, as well as with how she grew to see more of both sides of the coin. Season 4 was very believable to me in terms of typical middle-aged crisis, when suddenly certainty can get besieged by all sorts of issues -- including questions about the path one's on, just how "wise" you are when you've made so many mistakes, less willingness to take risks, concerns about physical abillities. It didn't matter that Xena was still a young woman. I saw her on sort of an "accelerated" program - -- living her life in dog years. > As for looking weak, her reaction to this situation showed how strong > she is. I'm going "Omigosh! Xena got beat! Is this the end of life as we > know it?" whereas she just gets up, straightens her dentures and gets on > with analysing the reasons for her defeat and planning her comeback. > > Yes! You don't know how strong you really are until you've made it through defeats and emotional wringers and the threats to or death of loved ones and relationships. And they can come from areas where you least expect it. You think you've prepared yourself adequately, have been careful and -- whamo! -- something/somebody comes out of nowhere and floors you. But you can come out with the confidence that whatever bad time comes next, "This too shall pass." I loved that Xena had the humility to admit to a child that she got her butt kicked, primarily because she didn't follow her own instincts. That she realized her "weakness" (in this case, worrying too much about Gabs) could be used to her advantage. I especially love that she didn't angst about what happened -- "Oh, woe is me. This proves I'm not good enough." Instead, she wipes her bloody nose and jumps right back in the ring. A great example for all ages, but maybe especially for those who worry if their knees have gotten too creaky. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:40:40 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (3) In a message dated 2/23/2004 4:17:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > KT: > >> > >>Well not changed. Because it didn't last. Xena REACTED to it for a while. > >>And then when she had her epiphany with Krishna, she stopped letting her > >>fears over what was going to happen interfere with her daily life. She got > >>on with her job. >> > > > > > IFE: > >You don't think we incorporate major experiences like that into how we may > >see ourselves or others? > > > Yes. But this change reaffirmed what she'd been before. So it didn't put > her on a new course of life at all--it brought her back to the same path > she'd been on for the last three years. >> Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that at all. It's like doing something you initially fell into and figured you were still doing because it must be okay. Then something happens and you realize it wasn't just an accident or because you can't do anything else. I think that reaffirmation brings with it more ownership, confidence -- even joy. I'm talking more subtle internal changes that people might not notice -- except to say, "There's something a little different about so and so. I can't put my finger on it, but she seems more at peace somehow." > That we don't change in terms of maybe treating > >something we almost lost as more precious? > > > Oh absolutely. Xena absolutely re-embraced her warrior self. That was VERY > important and very valuable to her. Oh--did you mean Gabrielle? >> I have *got* to get ahold of that Vander Sexxx whip. So many possible uses for it. > True, some people don't, or revert to > >old patterns, but for others the change becomes a part of them. I think it > was > >significant that Xena believed she was *supposed* to be a warrior, rather > than > >accidentally forced to become one, and that she could have a good impact > >*because* she was a warrior, rather than in spite of being one or as. > > > > > > I don't know. I don't think it was totally an accident she became a > warrior. She decided to be a warrior in response to Cortez attacking her > village. Not everyone had the same response. I think she was meant to be a > warrior. And perhaps Ares had a lot to do with that too. >> I've thought about that before -- whether Xena believed she would've chosen that path, if nobody had ever threatened Amphipolis like that. As I said above, you can still have doubts about that, even if it's your first inclination, you're good at it, and you like it. "Did it choose me or did I choose it?" We also have Xena wondering how much she was driven by anger to lash out in such a violent way -- to be, as you say, overly susceptible to Ares' influence. The fact that Xena was willing to give up being a warrior in Remember Nothing said to me that she had regrets about not seeking other alternatives, if only because of the consequences to her loved ones. She learns that the alternative she chose was probably the most effective in that situation, but as the seasons progressed, we see her doing her utmost to resolve things without killing. (I remember once going back through the seasons to see how often and quickly she's killed an opponent, especially one of the main bad guys, when it's not a real battle situation like with the Horde. I think the highest body count I found was season 1). I agree, she was probably meant to be a warrior, but I don't think that was totally confirmed for *her* until S4. > >Perhaps. I didn't get the impression she cared that much about her being > on > >the cross or why, so much as that Gabrielle was with her and she was > helpless > >to save her. > > > That's part of my point. WHY isn't she fighting. This is what's freaking > her out.>> Oh, yes, then I agree with you there. > >>Well she never, ever tried to move Gab from her way. > > > > IFE: > >I didn't mean that. Before, they focused on responding to pleas for help > and > >doing random good deeds. In S4, they go on travels more specifically > related > >to Gabs' spiritual quest or curiosity. > > > Again, I don't see that. They wander into India. They didn't set out to go > there deliberately. They stop at Aiden's because Gabrielle wants a hot > bath and wine. >> Huh. I thought Gabs says something at the beginning of Paradise about being interested in the philosophies of the land. She's already demonstrated her desire to explore new beliefs in Crusader. At any rate, they stop at Aiden's because Gabs is curious about the world Aiden's created and how. When they get to India, Gabs is clearly interested in immersing herself in the culture. I definitely got the impression it was for more than souvenir hunting and a hot bath. > In the garden when Xena "heals" her cut, I think what she's done is cut > through the illusion. She doesn't really have that cut. But she can't hold > that. And that is not like her either. It's that season four malaise, > brought about by her loss of faith. Not by deciding to just follow > Gabrielle for a change. >> Again, you're turning around what I intend. I keep saying that it all begins with Xena and what's going on inside her, that she sees and responds differently because of that, not because of Gabrielle. She follows Gabs because of that. (BTW, I believe the cut is real, but that it's healed in Aiden's world. She momentarily brings the cut back, but it gets healed again by Aiden's false goody-goody powers.) > > > >>As I said before, I don't think that Xena and Gabrielle ever became full > >>partners. >> > > > >In whose eyes? Xena's? Gabs'? Both? > > Xena's. >> Ah, then we see that totally differently. I agree Xena could be patronizing and act unilaterally with almost anyone at any time. I believe she was definitely overprotective where Gabs was concerned. I don't think she could help that. I believe it had to do with how she saw herself -- her reponsibilities -- not with any lack of confidence in Gabs. In all other ways, I saw her treating and talking to Gabs as a full partner. > >If they were, Xena wouldn't have kept leaving Gabrielle behind. >> > > > >You mean *attempt* to leave Gabs in S4. You don't see the vision as a > >traumatic reason for that? Did she try to leave Gabs after S4? > > > > > > Oh yeah. In Gurkhan she dopes her and takes off for Gurkhan's palace. In > The Ring, she slips away while Gabrielle is snoozing. In FIN she sends > Gabrielle off on a bogus mission so Xena can do her job. Always leaving > Gabrielle behind whenever she feels the mission is too dangerous. Yes, > Gabrielle catches up with her. But it doesn't stop Xena from TRYING to get > away and do the job by herself. >> True, but not "always." Also, I thought you were saying this was because Gabs wasn't competent, which was the case in the early seasons. If by "too dangerous" you mean suicidal, then I'd agree. I think she saw the Gurkhan and Ring situations as suicide missions -- for Gabs in the former case, for herself in the latter. Xena didn't want Gabs to die, not if Xena could stop it. Xena saw her job as protecting people, not just of Gabs. I just don't see that as meaning Xena thought Gabs wasn't a competent warrior or a full partner in other respects. > But Xena has always had Gabrielle on a pedastal and that hasn't changed > too much, I don't think. And when the mission is TOO dangerous, Xena > still leaves her behind. Because she doesn't believe she will be safe. In > other words, she doesn't trust in Gabrielle's ability to complete the job > without dying on her. And Xena just can't stand the thought of that. >> I guess we differ in where we put the emphasis. I see all of it as having to do with Xena -- what she wants for Gabrielle, Xena's own confidence in herself as *the* one to fix things. As I said, I agree with you in that sense that Xena is not treating Gabs as an equal. I just don't see it as coming from her degree of trust in Gabs, so much as her degree of trust in herself and her role. Gabrielle is precious to her. No matter how great a warrior Gabs is, that won't change the fact that Xena doesn't want Gabs to die. I would also agree that Gabs saw that as an ongoing flaw in their relationship, which she eventually accepted and simply went after Xena anyway. I believe Gabrielle had her own flaw in terms of faith in people or situations Xena had doubts about. In the earlier days, she acted unilaterally on that when she left Xena because she feared she would get Xena killed or stand between Xena and her "father." She didn't physically leave Xena after that, but she got involved with people (Kfrafstar, Najara, Aiden, Eli) in a way that forced Xena to respond as though Gabs had acted unilaterally. Xena accepted that and simply supported Gabs if things didn't work out well. I prefer to think of "weakness" as a strength that's used too much and/or at the wrong time. Xena's warrior protectiveness caused strains in her relationship with Gabs, just as Gabrielle's idealism did. The fact that they learned to accept that in each other, to find ways to make it work, is why I believe they had a full partnership. Most of the time they accomplished what they did *because* of their contrasting strengths, not in spite of them. > >>Exactly. Again, I think that Gabrielle stands for all the innocents whom > >>Xena was never able to save in her life. Always has. In Xena's mind and > >>heart, she represents Lyceus, M'Lila, Akemi, Solon, and ultimately, even > >>the lost childhood of Eve, her separation from her mother which made Xena > >>unable to save her baby daughter from being raised to be the Bitch of > >>Rome. >> > > > > > >LOL! I saw her as worried about Gabrielle purely for Gabrielle's sake. > >Unless you mean "stands for" in our or the writers' views. > > > Nope. Stands in Xena's heart for all those lost others. To put it in a > totally facetious way, it's almost like when Xena starts on her road to > atonement, she's given this little puppy as a test. Just to see if she can > do better at protecting it than she did all the others whom she failed in > the past. So sure, Xena loves this puppy. But she's also extremely > protective of it because of all her past failures.>> Almost sounds like you saw Gabs as mainly a plot device. Some Xena fans dismissed her for that reason, while Gabfans felt she was indeed used as a "pet" project for the main character's purposes. Mind you, I can certainly understand that. It took a lot of "going with the flow" (not to mention ROC's fine performances) to see Gabs as a "real" person, rather than simply representative of something else (e.g., the audience, idealism, all the other people in Xena's life whom she felt she'd failed). I agree that Xena probably did see Gabs as incorporating a lot of the people and qualities Xena loved -- especially before season 3. She wanted to preserve Gab's innocence. But in season 3, Gabs went from being high up on a pedestal, down to a flesh-and-blood person with the ability to hurt Xena a lot more than Caesar. After that, I think Xena loved Gabrielle more realistically, as a someone who managed to retain her ideals in her own unique way, including the flaws, the spilling of blood and her enormous strength in the face of earthly and godly tests. Yes, Xena wanted to protect what Gabs stood for, but I think that became as much a part of who Gabs was, as Xena's honor was a part of what Gabs loved about Xena. But those weren't the only aspects they loved about each other. > >I do hope the S5 commentaries cover the extent to which Gabrielle's > warrior > >mode got accelerated because of Lucy's pregnancy. > > > >-- Ife > > > IF this is true. I don't think I've ever heard "them" say anything like > that. Renee may have...hmmmm. >> We know my memory ain't the best, but I thought I read at least a couple of interviews about needing ROC to provide more of the butt-kicking, even with Amarice around. Hence Gabs' instant prowess with pointy weapons and burning ropes. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:40:45 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) In a message dated 2/23/2004 3:36:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Ife: > >True. My point here was that Xena usually preferred to err on the side of > >caution (glass half empty) to protect Gabs, whereas Gabs was the one to > urge > >giving the benefit of the doubt. In S4, Xena tries to err more on the side > of > >hoping someone like Aiden or Njara will be good for Gabrielle. So we get > to see > >Xena being more of a follower, rather than taking charge and right off the > >bat saying, "Gabs, this person seems too good to be true. I'm going to be > >watching them like I did Hope." > > > > > Yeah--because she's totally insecure in herself. She's changed due to what > happened to them in season three and specifically due to seeing the > vision. >> Grrrrr. That's what I said, darn it! What part of what I said are you disagreeing with? > > > >> > >>No, again I'd have to argue with this as being typical, not new. She never > >>stopped Gab from doing anything. >> > > > >Perhaps we see "space" differently. Early on, Xena essentially denied > >Gabrielle space by going solo, as in Chariots, Path Not Taken, Death in > Chains, > >Mortal Beloved. Other times, she drew parameters around the space -- e.g., > taking > >the breast dagger away from Gabs, warning Gabs not to talk to Petracles, > >ordering her around in the Price. > > > All of which Gab ignored... > > Oh, as you say below. I'll snip that paragraph so I don't look so stupid. >> > LOL! Talk about ignoring .... > > SNIP > > > > >Yes, Xena let Gabs travel with her and encouraged Gabs to pursue her > dreams. > >However, I would argue that a lot of what Gabs initiated herself was > because > >Xena *couldn't* stop her, not because Xena didn't stop her, regardless of > how > >right or willing Xena might've been if she'd had a choice. > > > Of course Xena could have stopped her. It wouldn't have been pretty > though. There's a reason that the Titans episode generated a whole raft of > Xena spanks Gabrielle stories, ya know. >> She'd of had to do more than that -- like tie her up as she did in Been There. Otherwise, Xena wouldn't have been there to stop her from sneaking off or leaving places she was supposed to stay in. > >>Because the reaction was to her concept of herself and how her life's > >>choices apparently would lead to Gabrielle having to die for Xena's sins. > > > > > > > > > We're both saying the behavior changes came because of Xena's > >internal struggle. I'm simply taking it a step further to say that I saw > her treat > >Gabs differently as a result. > > > Yes, I know. I didn't. >> Well, you kept saying Xena didn't do something because of Gabs, so I wasn't sure you were getting that we were starting from the same premise. > By benign neglect, I mean that Xena generally let her go her own way and > do her own thing. And didn't interfere unless she felt Gabrielle was > putting herself in danger. Which she usually did since that's what young > sidekicks do. But while Xena might lecture and warn, she never held > Gabrielle's strong minded behavior against her. She accepted her as she > was. And loved her as she was. >> I guess it was the "neglect" part I wasn't comfortable with. I thought Xena's encouragement and lectures were more active, in that "neglect" to me means ignoring, not paying attention to, possibly to the point of a negative result (e.g., self-doubt, inaction on Gabs' part). > > > >> > >>EXCEPT that she does keep trying to give Gabrielle away more than usual in > >>season four. This is the only thing the WP can come up with. << > > > >I saw Xena trying to stay with Gabs despite the vision. She can't come up > >with anything herself, so she follows Gabs' lead when possible. > > > What lead? Where to? >> Joining up with Najara, staying in Paradise, shopping for Indian clothes , possibly tagging along with Eli. (Ooo, that reminds me, Xena tried to send Gabs away in Past Imperfect. Score another one for KT on the Leaving Gabs Behind scale.) > Ife: > >In the past, Xena left the choice to leave up to Gabs. The difference in > S4 > >is that Xena's the one choosing to leave. > > > She left her in The Debt. She left her in Maternal Instincts. She left her > at the temple in Forget me not, not knowing if Gabrielle would chose to > remember her and return to her or not. >> Those were all season 3. I thought S4 was an aberration because of the vision, but we do have the *suicide missions* of Gurkhan and the Ring, where Xena leaves Gabs behind. > > > Ife: > In the past, Xena saw her influence > >and warrior life as bad for Gabrielle. Those aren't issues anymore, so > much > >as some mysterious event that seems outside of Xena's control. > > > > Oh no I don't agree on that either. I think Xena till the end thought she > was bad for Gabrielle. Bad for anybody. But I think that in Family Affair > we see that she accepts that they will be together. She's gotten a measure > of peace from them surviving the rift and still loving each other at the > end. That they got through that intact. > > But bad things happening around her still niggles at her, post rift. As we > saw in When In Rome, when she asks Gabrielle, "How many more times am I > going to hurt you?" She gets a BIG, NASTY answer to this with the vision > of their future death. >> I'm talking S4. I see the threat of Xena's past as being different from her viewing herself as a bad influence in the present. I don't see Xena angsting much about herself as evil or about putting Gabs in compromising positions. Gabs puts herself in the Gurkhan situation. Xena's past, not her current darkness, is what she's worried about in the Ring. In fact, Gabs is more worried about Xena in the "going to hell" eps than Xena is. > > > >We can't see what's going on in Xena's head, except when she's thinking > about > >the vision. We know that one result is indecisiveness, which we can only > get > >through observing what she does or says. My perception is that most of the > >indecisiveness comes out in her interactions with Gabrielle or in > situations > >related to Gabs. Otherwise, Xena's her usual decisive, kick-butt self -- > >fighting Pompey and Caesar, asking villagers to burn down their homes, > going to > >prison, kidnaping that girl from the Horde, fighting the slavers Najara > tells > >them about. > > > I saw the indecisiveness with the rest of the world. Much less with > Gabrielle. She doesn't have to fight Gabrielle, so this loss of > confidence in herself as a warrior doesn't factor in her relationship with > her. >> It was more than just fighting. It was loss of confidence in her instincts, her judgment, her focus. All of those were very much at play in deferring to Gabs' initial openness to Aiden and Najara, to her wanting to leave Gabs behind. But in regards to others--How come she suddenly decides to go to > > prison now? >> I'll give you that one. I won't even throw the vision in, as I think that would be forcing the issue. How come Najara can beat her up? How come she ASKS Najara for > > advice on if she thinks the vision could be real? Xena NEVER asked anybody > for advice, never mind the warlord of the week. >> But why were they with Najara in the first place? Because of Gabs' response to Najara, not just because Najara could fight and use pretty words. Why did she think Najara could give Gabs "joy and meaning"? Because of Najara's interactions with Gabs. Because Xena wanted to believe it would make Gabs happy. > She no longer accepts she's got the ovaries to be the baddest momma in > the forest. And so gets her butt kicked regularly. Hell, even Gabrielle > gives her a swat on the rear in public in both Paradise Found and Devi. > Only Ares had ever got away with that before and that was only because she > was crazy at the time. >> Um, I was looking for something a little more substantial than that. Even in Devi, she's hesitant to hurt Gabs' body. > > > > > >Maybe I'm missing something. What makes Xena seem strange, insecure, > >indecisive, etc. that doesn't involve what she says to or how she treats > Gabrielle? > >If what Xena says or does regarding Gabs is the same as always, then what > >else is so "disconcertingly" different? > > > > -- Ife > > > Everything about her being a warrior. Which of course, is her basic, > bottom line self. >> That's all well and good. I was hoping you could give examples (other than Locked Up) that weren't related to Gabs in some way. We even hear Xena's greatest fear ("I can't be a warrior") expressed to Gabs. Sure, Gabs is the audience's way of knowing this, but even the instances of Xena's getting her butt kicked or making weird decisions are generally related to Gabs. I'm not saying Gabs was the only reason for all this. My initial point was that Gabs happens to provide the reason for why we hear and see Xena act indecisively, trust people she wouldn't ordinarily, and get her butt kicked. My initial point was that, as a consquence, we saw Xena treating Gabs or those situations in a way that -- no matter how often we'd seen Xena do that in the past - -- seemed uncharacteristically muddled. I'm not trying to say it was all about Gabrielle. I've been saying the opposite -- that it was all about what was going on in Xena's head, which got acted out primarily in her interactions with or involving Gabrielle. In most other instances I can think of in S4 (Family Affair, Good Day, Past Imperfect, Daughter) prior to The Way, Xena is her usual confident self -- except if she's worried about Gabs. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:31:36 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:46, Jackie M. Young wrote: > On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:04:13 -0900 (AKST), KTL > > wrote: > > But I do know I'm VERY > >happy that we got what we got post season two instead of endless > >repetitions of the happy, charming, cheerful typical eps of seasons one > >and two. Season three made me no longer somewhat embarrassed to be a > >Xena fan. Gods bless PacRen for all their creativity and risk taking. > > --*Ahem*?!? "Happy, charming, cheerful"?!? Reckoning was the first ep > that hooked me, and I wouldn't say it was "happy, charming", nor > "cheerful". ;=P > > X beating up G?? Exploring issues of domestic abuse and anger management > and manipulative exploitation? No, I wouldn't characterize that as > "happy" or "charming". ;P Oh dear, now isn't that so late-20th-century. . 'domestic abuse, anger management and manipulative exploitation'. No no no no no, this is Xena Warrior Princess, a historical fantasy, not something to be buzzworded and pigeonholed into dreary banal ordinariness. Oh no. To quote the villain in Die Another Day (the latest James Bond movie), having just nearly killed some poor unfortunate functionary, "Get me a new Anger Management coach!" ;) > What *REALLY* drew me to XWP was the Dark. Oh, me too. > Reckoning was Dark. X got > beat up. Ares framed her. X beat up G. X was going to be > wrongfully executed unless someone did something. _That's_ Dark. Yes, but only a slightly dingy shade of grey. Destiny, now, *that* was dark. And season 3 was darker. :) > I'm a diehard S1 and S2 fan. From S3 on it got too mishy-mashy-slathering > in "feelings" for me, but that's just MO. Oh, I totally agree about the 'feelings' part of it. The less mishy-mashy the better. But, for the rest of it, ain't nothin' in S1 or S2 that can compare with the Rift eps or Sin Trade for _real_ Dark, IMO. > In S1 and S2, X was still the > stoic, impassive warrior trying to make amends. I liked that. It made > for a lot of focused comedy and drama, and not of the silly type that we > got in the later seasons. ;P Well, the comedies got sillier, but then I never judged XWP on its comedies anyway. There is absolutely nothing in any comedy that makes me laugh with delight like some of the delicious irony/black humour in The Debt, for example. "I decided to appeal to his sense of family values" "I've learned to clean up after myself" > The plots were a lot tighter. Not only > that, a lot of X's techniques and sayings (like, "I have many skills" > and the pinch) were developed during this time. I missed that after S3. But she used them in all eps. After all, if you have a new character (as Xena was in S1/S2), that leaves room for introducing all sorts of 'new' mannerisms. Later on, you can't do that because the character's established. If, in Season 5, Xena had started using a phrase like, say, "Not from where I'm standing" on numerous occasions, everyone would start asking where that came from and pointing to it as out-of-character. > I was never ashamed to be a XWP fan, just defensive when others thought it > was a "comic-book comedy" or something of that ilk. This was during the > time of S1/S2, when not many had discovered the show. Now people actually > look *respectfully* at me when I declare I'm a Xenite. ;P What a > difference a few years can make, eh?! > > Just MO, > --Jackie I prefer to keep my enthusiasms to myself. They're nobody else's business, certainly not that of people who don't share them. I find most other peoples' enthusiasms absurd. I guess I can see how they would find mine the same. I obviously have too strong a sense of the absurd to take life seriously. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #55 *************************************