From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #53 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, February 23 2004 Volume 04 : Number 053 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Award orphans (Was The Furies) ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings [cr ] Re: Ambiguities in XWP (was Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (2)) [cr <] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Award orphans (Was The Furies) [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 3rd season DVD reviews [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (3) [KTL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:23:26 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Award orphans (Was The Furies) On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:42:33 -0900 (AKST), KTL wrote: >There's a whole bunch of people who are amazed that I can so love XWP and >so yawn at Buffy. This is supplemented by the folks who are amazed that I >could never get into Alias either. - --Hey! You could be me! (not that anyone would want to be [LOL] ) *Loved* XWP, but couldn't get into Buffy no matter how much I tried, and every time I watched Alias I kept seeing captions at the top saying, "Rip-off of XWP: girl action show with father angst". Zzzzzzzz.....;( I really believe no other TV show has had the richness and creativeness of XWP, perhaps going back as far as ST:TOS, which I thought was rich and innovative in its own way, in its own day. I predict XWP will be a "classic" in its own right, but only Time will tell. But, "different strokes for different folks"....;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:46:59 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:04:13 -0900 (AKST), KTL wrote: > But I do know I'm VERY >happy that we got what we got post season two instead of endless >repetitions of the happy, charming, cheerful typical eps of seasons one >and two. Season three made me no longer somewhat embarrassed to be a >Xena fan. Gods bless PacRen for all their creativity and risk taking. - --*Ahem*?!? "Happy, charming, cheerful"?!? Reckoning was the first ep that hooked me, and I wouldn't say it was "happy, charming", nor "cheerful". ;=P X beating up G?? Exploring issues of domestic abuse and anger management and manipulative exploitation? No, I wouldn't characterize that as "happy" or "charming". ;P What *REALLY* drew me to XWP was the Dark. Reckoning was Dark. X got beat up. Ares framed her. X beat up G. X was going to be wrongfully executed unless someone did something. _That's_ Dark. I'm a diehard S1 and S2 fan. From S3 on it got too mishy-mashy-slathering in "feelings" for me, but that's just MO. In S1 and S2, X was still the stoic, impassive warrior trying to make amends. I liked that. It made for a lot of focused comedy and drama, and not of the silly type that we got in the later seasons. ;P The plots were a lot tighter. Not only that, a lot of X's techniques and sayings (like, "I have many skills" and the pinch) were developed during this time. I missed that after S3. I was never ashamed to be a XWP fan, just defensive when others thought it was a "comic-book comedy" or something of that ilk. This was during the time of S1/S2, when not many had discovered the show. Now people actually look *respectfully* at me when I declare I'm a Xenite. ;P What a difference a few years can make, eh?! Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:19:31 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 05:49, KTL wrote: > > So, I went > > on a fast forward trip through seasons 1-3 nightly while still catching > > S4 once a week. Ironically it was the complex human dilemmas that > > hooked me on the show and as a result found S1 and S2 enjoyable but not > > riveting. > > Oh, I'm totally in agreement with that. That's absolutely true for me > also. Even though I did fall in love with Lucy as Xena in season two. In > season three, I also fell in love with the show. For me, it was mid-Season 2 (the Destiny / Quest / ANE trilogy) that nearly hooked me, but after that it all fell flat**, it was early Season 3 that *really* hooked me. (** Blind Faith was passable, Lost Mariner noticeably good, but couldn't compare with the trilogy). > > Watching once a week, S4 had me riveted and waiting anxiously > > for what happens next. Umm, yes, doubtless, but then you didn't have Season 3 to compare it with. :) OK, I'll admit, most eps of S4 were worth watching. Most eps of XWP were worth watching. Very few were unwatchable. That's probably true of any season. The Whoosh list, at one time, was largely populated by new fans who 'came in' in Season 5 (my favourite season, for good reasons, and sheer defiance in the face of the S5 Haters' Club isn't even a factor), anyway they would have been astounded to hear some of the scathing criticism aimed at that season by some of the 'old guard'. They thought the S5 eps were great. > I absolutely agree with all of that. EXCEPT that in season four, we have > Xena literally getting the teeth beat out of her head by Najara, we have > the dweebyguy in Daughter of Pomira wiping the floor up with her, we have > Xena being unable to defend herself against Aiden's mind control. Hell, > even in the comedies, we have Xena being bested--by lice! > > And the earlier season Xena might have been slowed down by these guys but > they would never have been a significant threat. Callisto, Caesar and Alti > were really the only people in Xena's life who ever ALMOST beat her and > caused her grief. Never the warlord of the week. > > It was her mental state that was her greatest enemy in season four. And > that was what let these somewhat insignificant others get to trash the WP > in and only in Season four. I *knew* there was a reason I was majorly disappointed in Season 4** ;) And also, lemme see, no Callisto. No Ares. Instead we got Eli and Gabs' Way of Peace. How could anyone *like* a season without Callisto or Ares in it? ;) (** I exclude the 'bookends' - Sin Trade and Endgame / Ides - from my rating. If Season 4 was just those four episodes, it might end up top of my list) In fact I did know one fan who just stopped watching forever in Season 4, precisely because she couldn't stand seeing Xena so helpless, so un-Warrior-Princess like. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:36:36 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: Ambiguities in XWP (was Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (2)) On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:06, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/22/2004 1:53:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > KT said: > > >Again, this was something else absolutely set up in Sins Of The Past. > > > Xena has buried the tools of her trade. Because of meeting Hercules, > > > she has decided to try to do good. And she thinks this means she has to > > > stop being a warrior. > > > > Yeah. Some people see that as a sign that Xena was about to commit > > suicide. > > I just can't see that, at all. I agree with you - she had (IMO) > > decided to become a 'new person'.... > > You know, this reminds me of another interesting aspect of the DVD > commentaries -- how much of the ambiguity came from the varied perspectives > of the Xenastaff involved. And we all know you love ambiguity, Ife! ;-) > I love how how Friedman or Sears or Tapert talk > about how they disagreed with each other about a particular aspect (like > Ares being Xena's father). They think the issue was resolved one way, yet > when they view it or hear fan response, the ambiguity is still there. I've > read that someone (Sears?) thought Xena was suicidal, while others > disagree. I love the ambiguity, because it makes me wonder just how far > Xena might've gone in burying who/what she'd been. Oh gosh, and you just said as much! Well, well, there I go anticipating you again Actually, I always used to find it weird how some fans would read enormous significance into some little gesture by Xena or Gabs. And I used to think (and still do) that it was probably completely accidental, that the director that week just thought it looked cool if the actor did it that way. > Another ambiguity the interviews covered was whether Cally tricked Xena > into killing her at the end of Sacrifice. I got the feeling most of > Xenastaff (I think Sears in particular) felt that Cally got rejuvenated by > seeing Gabs go into the pit. Hudson said in no uncertain terms that Cally > wanted/needed oblivion -- if only because she couldn't continue being an > incompetent god who kept letting rocks fall on her head. Heh. Sounds like Hudson :) > Anyway, > Hudson made the decision to play Cally's final scene as though Cally was > grateful Xena killed her. Everyone else was pleased with this performance. Hmmm. I'm never sure about that. In general, I always tend to rather like the 'shit happens' theory - which in this instance would imply that Cally had changed her mind and really was happy, and Xena killed her anyway. How sad, too bad, she's dead. But against that, I really couldn't see that Gabs falling down the hole should really make Callisto so happy - it's not like she was one of the charter members of the Can't-Stand-Gabby Society - so her amusement would have to be faked as a provocation into making Xena kill her. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:59:52 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:06, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > Ming, Khrafstar, Caesar, Ares, Callisto. She had no reason to feel > > guilty > > about Caesar, Khrafstar or Ares, but she had plenty of reason to hate all > > five. And, "Hate is the star". > > I don't see why all of that couldn't be involved. Illusia was a way for > them to free themselves on many levels - their guilt for betraying each > other and not being honest, their agony over the terrible consequences of > Gabs' innocence and Xena's hate, the anger toward each other. I always > felt the Ming T'ien "lie" issue was a bit contrived and overblown, given > the circumstances and compared to the results of Gabs' lie. Seemed more > for dramatic purposes. When Xena sings her little song, it's more about > deceiving Gabs and not being there for Solan, rather than being sorry for > killing Ming T'ien. That doesn't contradict the importance of her letting > go of her hatred however, regardless of her motivations for killing T'ien. > > The crux of Xena's song is about forgiveness -- of one's self as well as > others. Illusia couldn't change what had happened, but Solan gave X&G the > chance to "come clean" and go on unburdened by the emotions and secrets > that would continue to haunt them and possibly pop up at some later point > to tear them apart again. Xena let go of the final secret. By asking Gabs > and Solan to forgive her, she was also letting go of the negative feelings. > So I think there were a lot of loose ends that got dealt with and allowed > Xena to finally pass through to the "good" side of Illusia. > > -- Ife Yes, it's possible that there were more reasons than just the one. If there had to be just one uniform reason for the selection of 'spooks', then IMO hate would have to be it, it's the only one that fits them all from Xena's POV. (From Gabs' POV, Caesar and Ming wouldn't count). I note that, if guilt was one of Xena's problems at the end, then Gabs nmust have got a free ride - she certainly didn't come clean, she didn't get to deal with her 'sins' until Forget Me Not. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:38:23 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Award orphans (Was The Furies) On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 05:15, Silenus wrote: > > I still think over those early days, trying to figure out exactly what > happened to me. In 1997, Herc started on our terrestrial tv and I admit > I started watching for what I believe is known hereabouts as the t&a > content. Actually, I should be more accurate. I started watching for the > show's portrayal of powerful fighting women. Interesting that Herc did have quite a lot of powerful or resourceful women in it. I think maybe the reason everyone overlooked them was simply that it was overshadowed by Xena. I guess, without thinking too hard, I could come up with maybe a score of women (that's 20, you ignorant lot! :) in Herc that were at least as intrepid as the average supporting-cast minor hero, and some who were way beyond that. Really, so far as supporting cast were concerned, Herc looked to be an equal-opportunity show. > Then they started running trailers for a coming show called Xena: > Warrior Princess. The trailers concentrated on Lucy as Xena and for me > she looked the perfect female warrior. A dream come true. Of course, I > watched the show when it started, but to begin with, I was a casual > viewer. I wasn't concerned if I missed an episode or two. Very soon, > however, I found myself recording episodes, jotting down little notes > about what happened in them, collecting any scraps of references to the > show. All behaviour that I would have sneered at previously. Yeah. "Me, a fan? What, like all those dumb Trekkies? Never!" :) > Watching Xena has been an education for me in what a tv show can do. I > get more out of other shows now, because I understand and appreciate > plot, music, production values, character development, etc so much more. > Nevertheless, every other show, however good, seems incomplete, just > because it isn't Xena. There's never been another show like this for me > and I expect there never will be. Intersting, I find the same - I appreciate production values more. (I also notice them in the occasional Herc episode too). Not every Herc or Xena ep has high production values, of course, in fact the tight shooting schedule and the financial limitations probably hindered that - but, I think most Herc / Xena directors probably did try to make their eps as visually interesting as they could. And LoDuca's music helped a heck of a lot, too. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:14:40 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:20, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > -- her own conflictedness, her > > greater openness > > > > >to giving Gabs space, > > > > No, again I'd have to argue with this as being typical, not new. She > > never stopped Gab from doing anything. >> > > Perhaps we see "space" differently. Early on, Xena essentially denied > Gabrielle space by going solo, as in Chariots, Path Not Taken, Death in > Chains, Mortal Beloved. Hey, that's not denying Gabs 'space', that's complete double-talk. Xena was doing her own thing, and trying to do it away from Gabs. Gabs could do what she liked in the entire rest of the world. Are you saying that Gabs' 'space' demanded that she be 'in' on everything Xena did? If so, Gabs had no business, no standing and no right to demand that. That would be denying Xena her own 'space'. That's just plain nosey interference. > Other times, she drew parameters around the space > -- e.g., taking the breast dagger away from Gabs, warning Gabs not to talk > to Petracles, ordering her around in the Price. Or, she gave Gabs the > space to leave entirely (e.g., for the Academy, to marry Perdy or go back > to Poteidaia), which would no longer necessitate any negotiations about > space. Precisely. Gabs didn't like it, Gabs didn't have to stick around. This was _all_ Xena's business that Gabs was getting herself mixed up in. Xena's 'advice' was usually for Gabs' own good and Gabby would have done well to take notice, not that she ever did. But I don't recall Xena ever poking herself into Gabby's world or wanting to. Ife, your concept of 'space' evidently does not fit with anything Newton or Einstein would recognise ;) > > Gabrielle in season four that wasn't already part of the characters' > > relationship and had been from season one on. With the additional nuances > > of Gabrielle as a physical fighter from season two on. >> > > To me, working with Gabs as a full partner vs. leaving Gabs in a tavern is > a major change in Xena's attitude and behavior. "I know what's best" or > "stay here and twiddle your thumbs" or "get behind me" were based more on > Gabs' lack of experience in the beginning. As we both seem to agree, Xena > no longer operated like that by S4. Her behavior in S4 wasn't based on > Gabs' abilities as a fighter, but on Xena's own conflictedness. In later S4, Gabs had *no* abilities as a fighter. Zero. Zilch. (And if anything, she was even more preachy about it than in earlier seasons). The egregious Eli saw to that, he neutralised her. So you're right, Ife. > > EXCEPT that she does keep trying to give Gabrielle away more than usual > > in season four. This is the only thing the WP can come up with. << Didn't work, did it? Bugger! (Sorry 'bout that. I must resist these one-liners :) > I saw Xena trying to stay with Gabs despite the vision. She can't come up > with anything herself, so she follows Gabs' lead when possible. She > acquiesces to Gabs' arguments about the vision in Past Imperfect. She's > glad Gab saves her in Locked Up. She hopes Gabs is right about finding > meaning for herself through Njara, Aiden and in India. When she realizes > some of those alternatives are frauds, she doesn't suggest that Gabs go > back to Poteidaia. I think it was more that Xena was preoccupied and confused, than that she was actively following Gabs' lead. She woulda followed Joxer just as readily, had he been there instead. > In the past, Xena left the choice to leave up to Gabs. The difference in > S4 is that Xena's the one choosing to leave. In the past, Xena saw her > influence and warrior life as bad for Gabrielle. Those aren't issues > anymore, so much as some mysterious event that seems outside of Xena's > control. To me, all that represents other signficant changes in attitude > and behavior regarding Gabs -- some of it based on Xena's acceptance of > herself as a positive influence in Gabs' life, some of it on a new source > of inner turmoil. > > We can't see what's going on in Xena's head, except when she's thinking > about the vision. We know that one result is indecisiveness, which we can > only get through observing what she does or says. My perception is that > most of the indecisiveness comes out in her interactions with Gabrielle or > in situations related to Gabs. Otherwise, Xena's her usual decisive, > kick-butt self -- fighting Pompey and Caesar, asking villagers to burn > down their homes, going to prison, kidnaping that girl from the Horde, > fighting the slavers Najara tells them about. > > Maybe I'm missing something. What makes Xena seem strange, insecure, > indecisive, etc. that doesn't involve what she says to or how she treats > Gabrielle? If what Xena says or does regarding Gabs is the same as always, > then what else is so "disconcertingly" different? > > -- Ife So what you're saying is, Gabs is the primary reason for Xena not being 'all there' in Season 4? Maybe you're right. Doesn't make me regard the blonde kid with any more warmth, though. :) Umm, no, on reflection I'm not sure I agree with all your examples. I do *not* think that, in any other season, Xena would have meekly gone to prison for the rest of her life for *one* minor crime (which was part accident anyway) commited way back in her past. (When I say 'minor', I mean minor in comparison to the rest of Evil Xena's past career). And I can't blame Xena's desire to go to jail on Gabs. And Xena's defeat by Najara, who she would normally have wiped the floor with - - that was hardly her kick-butt self, was it? How did Gabs cause that? (I can hardly believe I'm arguing in *favour* of the little blonde kid..... :) Come to that, kidnapping the girl from the Horde was hardly Xena's 'decisive self' - on that occasion she did do just what Gabby told her to. Hardly 'decisive' on Xena's part, and certainly impuslive on Gabs'. I think it was a stupid thing to do - it was certainly starting to look that way. As it happened, the ep had a happy ending I'm not sure I entirely believe. Would 'decisive Xena' from another season have rushed in like that, in ignorance of the circumstances? I rather doubt it. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:09:20 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 3rd season DVD reviews On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, mirrordrum wrote: > > well of course i think ROC could fit in perfectly since she was there off > screen (dedicated soul that she is) and undoubtedly had, although she may > not still have, observations on lucy's performance, endurance, trials, > general wonderfulness and other items of consuming interest. what it was > like for her to be an observer; just any old thing. and yeah, i'm *exactly* > that bad. > > it could be sort of like kt commenting on cons. you know, there but not > performing. a camera oscura (obscura)--or maybe a camera illuminata. of > course, one suspects kt always *performs* but. . .well, you know what i > mean. > md--finally weighing in lightly HEY! Hey, wanna see me juggle? (whoosh. whoosh. whooosh. whoosh. BANG OW! Whooosh. Whoooosh) KT I'll give you performance... ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:40:38 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (2) > > Again, this was something else absolutely set up in Sins Of The Past. Xena > > has buried the tools of her trade. Because of meeting Hercules, she has > > decided to try to do good. And she thinks this means she has to stop being > > a warrior. > > Yeah. Some people see that as a sign that Xena was about to commit suicide. > I just can't see that, at all. I agree with you - she had (IMO) decided > to become a 'new person'.... > Oh yeah. I don't get the people who think she's going to commit suicide. If so, WHY would she bury her weapons. Xena's pragmatic--she probably would have just sliced her throat with her chakram or pulled an Akemi and gutted herself. What, was she going to lie down in her slip and wait for hypothermia to shuffle her off this mortal coil? > > And she realizes that because of her skills, she should > > stay a warrior. But now she's a warrior for Good. > > Agreed. In fact, she'd virtually said as much, I think, at the end of > Unchained Heart. > > cr > > I remember the most her saying to Herc something like, "Is this what it feels like to be you." with the indication that she LIKES doing good. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:46:35 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four snip snip > > Perhaps not. But Xena killed Ming T'ien absolutely out of vengeance, since > > she'd already brought his castle down and destroyed his "face", made him > > small as Lao Ma's message requested. > > I don't believe that. I think he was still, probably, extremely dangerous, > and capable of causing enough trouble to cause many more deaths. So on > balance, wasn't it better to make sure of him? > I just think that China is like Japan in "face" being very important. So I tend to think that destroying his palace destroyed his standing and therefore destroyed his political base. I could be wrong... But I think that Xena killing him was supposed to be deliberate and unnecessary--this is part of the rift right? Where bad things happen to cause friction between the grrls. THOUGH as you pointed out a coupla months ago and I had totally never really realized in terms of its impact on the story, Xena takes off to kill him right from the start. > > So Xena can't leave Illusia until > > she "lets go" of her hatred towards Ming T'ien that caused her to murder > > him out of furious anger. > > Interesting. On the Whoosh list we were discussing just this, and came to > the conclusion that what was keeping Xena trapped in Illusia was the lie > she'd told Gabs about Ming. That's what I thought TPTB were saying, not that > I agreed with them. > > BUT - hate fits much better with the selection of 'spooks' in BS than guilt. > Ming, Khrafstar, Caesar, Ares, Callisto. She had no reason to feel guilty > about Caesar, Khrafstar or Ares, but she had plenty of reason to hate all > five. And, "Hate is the star". > > Well spotted, thanks! > > cr > You're welcome! So perhaps in season three, we should say, "Show's called Hate!"? KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 02:32:46 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 IfeRae@aol.com wrote: Wanton snippage Ife: > True. My point here was that Xena usually preferred to err on the side of > caution (glass half empty) to protect Gabs, whereas Gabs was the one to urge > giving the benefit of the doubt. In S4, Xena tries to err more on the side of > hoping someone like Aiden or Njara will be good for Gabrielle. So we get to see > Xena being more of a follower, rather than taking charge and right off the > bat saying, "Gabs, this person seems too good to be true. I'm going to be > watching them like I did Hope." > Yeah--because she's totally insecure in herself. She's changed due to what happened to them in season three and specifically due to seeing the vision. > > > > No, again I'd have to argue with this as being typical, not new. She never > > stopped Gab from doing anything. >> > > Perhaps we see "space" differently. Early on, Xena essentially denied > Gabrielle space by going solo, as in Chariots, Path Not Taken, Death in Chains, > Mortal Beloved. Other times, she drew parameters around the space -- e.g., taking > the breast dagger away from Gabs, warning Gabs not to talk to Petracles, > ordering her around in the Price. All of which Gab ignored... Oh, as you say below. I'll snip that paragraph so I don't look so stupid. SNIP > > Yes, Xena let Gabs travel with her and encouraged Gabs to pursue her dreams. > However, I would argue that a lot of what Gabs initiated herself was because > Xena *couldn't* stop her, not because Xena didn't stop her, regardless of how > right or willing Xena might've been if she'd had a choice. Of course Xena could have stopped her. It wouldn't have been pretty though. There's a reason that the Titans episode generated a whole raft of Xena spanks Gabrielle stories, ya know. If Gabrielle being thick-headed really bothered her, she could have just left her behind. Instead she stood by her, she forgave her for her trespasses AND she even apologized to her and praised her for her actions when she figured she'd been in the wrong, like in the Price. snipped lots of stuff we agree on > > Because the reaction was to her concept of herself and how her life's > > choices apparently would lead to Gabrielle having to die for Xena's sins. >> > > > We're both saying the behavior changes came because of Xena's > internal struggle. I'm simply taking it a step further to say that I saw her treat > Gabs differently as a result. Yes, I know. I didn't. Snipped more stuff we agree on > > > I saw no changes in how she was reacting to Gabrielle. She'd always had a > > kind of humble benign neglect towards Gabrielle's decisions and actions > > (except when actively saving her little bubble butt) and I didn't see any > > difference in that in season four.>> > > > I'd disagree with "benign neglect," as I thought Xena showed genuine respect > for Gabs' decisions and actions even early on when Gabs got in trouble. By benign neglect, I mean that Xena generally let her go her own way and do her own thing. And didn't interfere unless she felt Gabrielle was putting herself in danger. Which she usually did since that's what young sidekicks do. But while Xena might lecture and warn, she never held Gabrielle's strong minded behavior against her. She accepted her as she was. And loved her as she was. > > > > EXCEPT that she does keep trying to give Gabrielle away more than usual in > > season four. This is the only thing the WP can come up with. << > > I saw Xena trying to stay with Gabs despite the vision. She can't come up > with anything herself, so she follows Gabs' lead when possible. What lead? Where to? She acquiesces > to Gabs' arguments about the vision in Past Imperfect. She's glad Gab saves > her in Locked Up. She hopes Gabs is right about finding meaning for herself > through Njara, Aiden and in India. When she realizes some of those > alternatives are frauds, she doesn't suggest that Gabs go back to Poteidaia. > She never did in the past either. And she always hoped that Gabrielle would find meaning for herself--in the Academy, back in Poteidea, in a marriage with Perdicus. Same-o, same-o to me. Ife: > In the past, Xena left the choice to leave up to Gabs. The difference in S4 > is that Xena's the one choosing to leave. She left her in The Debt. She left her in Maternal Instincts. She left her at the temple in Forget me not, not knowing if Gabrielle would chose to remember her and return to her or not. Ife: In the past, Xena saw her influence > and warrior life as bad for Gabrielle. Those aren't issues anymore, so much > as some mysterious event that seems outside of Xena's control. Oh no I don't agree on that either. I think Xena till the end thought she was bad for Gabrielle. Bad for anybody. But I think that in Family Affair we see that she accepts that they will be together. She's gotten a measure of peace from them surviving the rift and still loving each other at the end. That they got through that intact. But bad things happening around her still niggles at her, post rift. As we saw in When In Rome, when she asks Gabrielle, "How many more times am I going to hurt you?" She gets a BIG, NASTY answer to this with the vision of their future death. > We can't see what's going on in Xena's head, except when she's thinking about > the vision. We know that one result is indecisiveness, which we can only get > through observing what she does or says. My perception is that most of the > indecisiveness comes out in her interactions with Gabrielle or in situations > related to Gabs. Otherwise, Xena's her usual decisive, kick-butt self -- > fighting Pompey and Caesar, asking villagers to burn down their homes, going to > prison, kidnaping that girl from the Horde, fighting the slavers Najara tells > them about. I saw the indecisiveness with the rest of the world. Much less with Gabrielle. She doesn't have to fight Gabrielle, so this loss of confidence in herself as a warrior doesn't factor in her relationship with her. But in regards to others--How come she suddenly decides to go to prison now? How come Najara can beat her up? How come she ASKS Najara for advice on if she thinks the vision could be real? Xena NEVER asked anybody for advice, never mind the warlord of the week. She accepts that she and Gabrielle are a team (though she's still the honcha in practical things, and though she still as she always has, defers to Gabrielle in matters of what's right or wrong. Mostly. Not always. See "The Debt" and "Gurkhan"). She no longer accepts she's got the ovaries to be the baddest momma in the forest. And so gets her butt kicked regularly. Hell, even Gabrielle gives her a swat on the rear in public in both Paradise Found and Devi. Only Ares had ever got away with that before and that was only because she was crazy at the time. > > Maybe I'm missing something. What makes Xena seem strange, insecure, > indecisive, etc. that doesn't involve what she says to or how she treats Gabrielle? > If what Xena says or does regarding Gabs is the same as always, then what > else is so "disconcertingly" different? > > -- Ife Everything about her being a warrior. Which of course, is her basic, bottom line self. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 03:14:54 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (3) KT: > > > > Well not changed. Because it didn't last. Xena REACTED to it for a while. > > And then when she had her epiphany with Krishna, she stopped letting her > > fears over what was going to happen interfere with her daily life. She got > > on with her job. >> > IFE: > You don't think we incorporate major experiences like that into how we may > see ourselves or others? Yes. But this change reaffirmed what she'd been before. So it didn't put her on a new course of life at all--it brought her back to the same path she'd been on for the last three years. That we don't change in terms of maybe treating > something we almost lost as more precious? Oh absolutely. Xena absolutely re-embraced her warrior self. That was VERY important and very valuable to her. Oh--did you mean Gabrielle? True, some people don't, or revert to > old patterns, but for others the change becomes a part of them. I think it was > significant that Xena believed she was *supposed* to be a warrior, rather than > accidentally forced to become one, and that she could have a good impact > *because* she was a warrior, rather than in spite of being one or as. > I don't know. I don't think it was totally an accident she became a warrior. She decided to be a warrior in response to Cortez attacking her village. Not everyone had the same response. I think she was meant to be a warrior. And perhaps Ares had a lot to do with that too. > > It JUST struck me that Xena doesn't seem to consider that dying on that > > cross in the vision might be happening for the Greater Good. I think for > > Xena, dying for the Greater Good means fighting to the death for it, not > > being passively executed for it. >> > > Perhaps. I didn't get the impression she cared that much about her being on > the cross or why, so much as that Gabrielle was with her and she was helpless > to save her. That's part of my point. WHY isn't she fighting. This is what's freaking her out. She has no awareness that her spine has been sliced by Callisto. She's probably wondering why the hell she isn't fighting. As she said in One Against An Army, "I do not accept defeat". And yet she sees herself lying there, letting them nail her and Gabrielle to the cross. Gabrielle being there also IS the worst part. And surely Xena must be thinking, why am I letting them do this to her? What the furk....? > > Well she never, ever tried to move Gab from her way. > IFE: > I didn't mean that. Before, they focused on responding to pleas for help and > doing random good deeds. In S4, they go on travels more specifically related > to Gabs' spiritual quest or curiosity. Again, I don't see that. They wander into India. They didn't set out to go there deliberately. They stop at Aiden's because Gabrielle wants a hot bath and wine. Later he does that voodoo that he do so well. And Xena's failure to challenge him right away, to stomp off (knowing that Gab will follow) is related exactly to her own insecurity. And her own security makes her question if she's right about him or if Gabrielle is. In the garden when Xena "heals" her cut, I think what she's done is cut through the illusion. She doesn't really have that cut. But she can't hold that. And that is not like her either. It's that season four malaise, brought about by her loss of faith. Not by deciding to just follow Gabrielle for a change. > > As I said before, I don't think that Xena and Gabrielle ever became full > > partners. >> > > In whose eyes? Xena's? Gabs'? Both? Xena's. > > If they were, Xena wouldn't have kept leaving Gabrielle behind. >> > > You mean *attempt* to leave Gabs in S4. You don't see the vision as a > traumatic reason for that? Did she try to leave Gabs after S4? > Oh yeah. In Gurkhan she dopes her and takes off for Gurkhan's palace. In The Ring, she slips away while Gabrielle is snoozing. In FIN she sends Gabrielle off on a bogus mission so Xena can do her job. Always leaving Gabrielle behind whenever she feels the mission is too dangerous. Yes, Gabrielle catches up with her. But it doesn't stop Xena from TRYING to get away and do the job by herself. > > > Xena loves Gabrielle and just doesn't want to > > take a chance on losing her, or rather, having the WORLD lose her or > > people like her. So she leaves her behind endlessly. She doesn't trust > > Gabrielle's ability to save herself. And therefore I don't think Xena ever > > considered Gabrielle a true partner in warrior terms. Someone to cherish, > > protect and keep safe? Yes. Someone to send out or even to have accompany > > one on a specific probable death mission? No. >> > > Again, I would agree with you on that for S1&2. She did that during the rift > for other reasons. After that, I just don't see that Xena didn't trust Gabs' > ability to save herself -- or Xena, for that matter -- It's on the screen. And it p*sses Gabrielle off each time Xena does it. and wanted to keep > Gabs safe at all cost, except because of the vision. It seems you feel their > relationship got stuck in S2. > No, Gabrielle's experiences with Dahak and Hope changed her forever. She became a full adult. She lost a lot of joy and fiestiness and I regret that very much. And the safe resolution of the rift made huge changes in their relationship. Xena involves Gabrielle much more in "the plans". When she HAS a plan and they're not just wandering around. Like in When In Rome--she relies heavily upon Gabrielle's role in that ep. Gabrielle has become a valuable part of the team. In Between the Lines, it takes the two of them working together to defeat Alti. But Xena has always had Gabrielle on a pedastal and that hasn't changed too much, I don't think. And when the mission is TOO dangerous, Xena still leaves her behind. Because she doesn't believe she will be safe. In other words, she doesn't trust in Gabrielle's ability to complete the job without dying on her. And Xena just can't stand the thought of that. > > > > Exactly. Again, I think that Gabrielle stands for all the innocents whom > > Xena was never able to save in her life. Always has. In Xena's mind and > > heart, she represents Lyceus, M'Lila, Akemi, Solon, and ultimately, even > > the lost childhood of Eve, her separation from her mother which made Xena > > unable to save her baby daughter from being raised to be the Bitch of > > Rome. >> > > > LOL! I saw her as worried about Gabrielle purely for Gabrielle's sake. > Unless you mean "stands for" in our or the writers' views. Nope. Stands in Xena's heart for all those lost others. To put it in a totally facetious way, it's almost like when Xena starts on her road to atonement, she's given this little puppy as a test. Just to see if she can do better at protecting it than she did all the others whom she failed in the past. So sure, Xena loves this puppy. But she's also extremely protective of it because of all her past failures. It shouldn't happen anymore--she's on the side of good. And yet she does fail at protecting Gabrielle a number of times. And almost loses her. Season three ends with Gabrielle presumed dead down a hole and season four ends with her really dead. But, at least she was housebroken. > > I think it's very telling that Gabrielle became a full warrior with pointy > > weapons only after Xena became pregnant. And Xena accepted this, due to > > their recent history, but also I think out of respect towards Gabrielle's > > continuing journey. It was way too late by then to worry about everything > > changing for Gabrielle because of her first kill. >> > > I do hope the S5 commentaries cover the extent to which Gabrielle's warrior > mode got accelerated because of Lucy's pregnancy. > > -- Ife IF this is true. I don't think I've ever heard "them" say anything like that. Renee may have...hmmmm. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #53 *************************************