From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #52 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, February 23 2004 Volume 04 : Number 052 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Captioning ["abqbeach" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Captioning > Well, same applies in some respects to 'foreign' fans who hear XWP dubbed. > Xena's voice is probably totally different for them. Do they lose a lot in > the experience? I expect it really depends on whether the person doing the > dubbing has a 'good' voice (I mean, expressive and appropriate for Xena). This reminds me of my efforts to use watching XWP to help my Spanish skills. In the version I have, I think the Spanish dubbed Xena voice is quite good. It's not Lucy, but it's got the right tone and inflection. I buy that it's the Xena character that I know and love, but a lot of that has to do with watching Lucy at the same time. I might not have a clue about what is being said, but there is so much in the lift of a brow or other body language that I get a lot that way. (And I'm watching season one, which I haven't seen in a long time, so I don't just remember all of the appropriate dialog in English). Interestingly enough, they don't dub all of the grunts and battle cry sounds. Those are definitely Lucy :-) Gab, on the other hand. Eh. It's a high chipmunk kind of voice that drives me insane. It's soooo not Gabrielle in my mind, so I tend to just turn off my brain when she talks. Gab may have been a teenager in the beginning, but not the little girl that this voice belongs to. So I would say that Spanish viewers are missing out on the Gabrielle experience, much more than Xena, in this case. I've got a couple season six eps in Spanish as well, so it would be interesting to see if it's the same voice, or if they have matured it (hopefully!). I remember Renee saying something about watching Xena in Italy (I think) and experiencing the chipmunk voice for Gabrielle as well. Maybe it's more of a standard young girl voice the dubbers use? angie in NM http://xenawp.org ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:38:37 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four In a message dated 2/22/2004 1:58:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: KT said: > >So Xena can't leave Illusia until > >she "lets go" of her hatred towards Ming T'ien that caused her to murder > >him out of furious anger. > > Interesting. On the Whoosh list we were discussing just this, and came to > the conclusion that what was keeping Xena trapped in Illusia was the lie > she'd told Gabs about Ming. That's what I thought TPTB were saying, not > that > I agreed with them. > > BUT - hate fits much better with the selection of 'spooks' in BS than guilt. > > Ming, Khrafstar, Caesar, Ares, Callisto. She had no reason to feel guilty > > about Caesar, Khrafstar or Ares, but she had plenty of reason to hate all > five. And, "Hate is the star". I don't see why all of that couldn't be involved. Illusia was a way for them to free themselves on many levels - their guilt for betraying each other and not being honest, their agony over the terrible consequences of Gabs' innocence and Xena's hate, the anger toward each other. I always felt the Ming T'ien "lie" issue was a bit contrived and overblown, given the circumstances and compared to the results of Gabs' lie. Seemed more for dramatic purposes. When Xena sings her little song, it's more about deceiving Gabs and not being there for Solan, rather than being sorry for killing Ming T'ien. That doesn't contradict the importance of her letting go of her hatred however, regardless of her motivations for killing T'ien. The crux of Xena's song is about forgiveness -- of one's self as well as others. Illusia couldn't change what had happened, but Solan gave X&G the chance to "come clean" and go on unburdened by the emotions and secrets that would continue to haunt them and possibly pop up at some later point to tear them apart again. Xena let go of the final secret. By asking Gabs and Solan to forgive her, she was also letting go of the negative feelings. So I think there were a lot of loose ends that got dealt with and allowed Xena to finally pass through to the "good" side of Illusia. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:06:30 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Ambiguities in XWP (was Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (2)) In a message dated 2/22/2004 1:53:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: KT said: > >Again, this was something else absolutely set up in Sins Of The Past. Xena > >has buried the tools of her trade. Because of meeting Hercules, she has > >decided to try to do good. And she thinks this means she has to stop being > >a warrior. > > Yeah. Some people see that as a sign that Xena was about to commit > suicide. > I just can't see that, at all. I agree with you - she had (IMO) decided > to become a 'new person'.... > > You know, this reminds me of another interesting aspect of the DVD commentaries -- how much of the ambiguity came from the varied perspectives of the Xenastaff involved. I love how how Friedman or Sears or Tapert talk about how they disagreed with each other about a particular aspect (like Ares being Xena's father). They think the issue was resolved one way, yet when they view it or hear fan response, the ambiguity is still there. I've read that someone (Sears?) thought Xena was suicidal, while others disagree. I love the ambiguity, because it makes me wonder just how far Xena might've gone in burying who/what she'd been. Another ambiguity the interviews covered was whether Cally tricked Xena into killing her at the end of Sacrifice. I got the feeling most of Xenastaff (I think Sears in particular) felt that Cally got rejuvenated by seeing Gabs go into the pit. Hudson said in no uncertain terms that Cally wanted/needed oblivion -- if only because she couldn't continue being an incompetent god who kept letting rocks fall on her head. Heh. Anyway, Hudson made the decision to play Cally's final scene as though Cally was grateful Xena killed her. Everyone else was pleased with this performance. I'll always admire Tapert for being so open to allowing so much input and so many interpretations. As he said, each person involved could add another layer of meaning beyond his or the writer's original intent. Lucy was a master of unreadable expressions that enabled various interpretations, or saying lines in such a way that the words might have a different meaning from the "obvious." We can debate our different "takes" and probably find some XWP person who supports it. In the end, it may come down to the weight we give to different people involved or to original intent vs. what we get in the end. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:06:29 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four In a message dated 2/22/2004 1:58:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: KT said: > >So Xena can't leave Illusia until > >she "lets go" of her hatred towards Ming T'ien that caused her to murder > >him out of furious anger. > > Interesting. On the Whoosh list we were discussing just this, and came to > the conclusion that what was keeping Xena trapped in Illusia was the lie > she'd told Gabs about Ming. That's what I thought TPTB were saying, not > that > I agreed with them. > > BUT - hate fits much better with the selection of 'spooks' in BS than guilt. > > Ming, Khrafstar, Caesar, Ares, Callisto. She had no reason to feel guilty > > about Caesar, Khrafstar or Ares, but she had plenty of reason to hate all > five. And, "Hate is the star". I don't see why all of that couldn't be involved. Illusia was a way for them to free themselves on many levels - their guilt for betraying each other and not being honest, their agony over the terrible consequences of Gabs' innocence and Xena's hate, the anger toward each other. I always felt the Ming T'ien "lie" issue was a bit contrived and overblown, given the circumstances and compared to the results of Gabs' lie. Seemed more for dramatic purposes. When Xena sings her little song, it's more about deceiving Gabs and not being there for Solan, rather than being sorry for killing Ming T'ien. That doesn't contradict the importance of her letting go of her hatred however, regardless of her motivations for killing T'ien. The crux of Xena's song is about forgiveness -- of one's self as well as others. Illusia couldn't change what had happened, but Solan gave X&G the chance to "come clean" and go on unburdened by the emotions and secrets that would continue to haunt them and possibly pop up at some later point to tear them apart again. Xena let go of the final secret. By asking Gabs and Solan to forgive her, she was also letting go of the negative feelings. So I think there were a lot of loose ends that got dealt with and allowed Xena to finally pass through to the "good" side of Illusia. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:12:39 -0500 From: "bookdaft" Subject: [chakram-refugees] =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_=5Bchakram-refugees=5D_Renee's_Double's_Na me_=28Wa?= =?Windows-1252?Q?s:_Zo=EB_Bell_pics_at_3rd_Annual_World_Stunt__Awards= 29?= I know this is response to an extremely old post, but I'm extremely slow in reading my e-mail. A couple of years ago I was lucky enough to pick up some of the show's props and costumes. It wasn't anything terribly remarkable, mostly the kinds of things worn or used by the extras and doubles. The costume I have is the BGSB top and brown skirt for one of Renee's doubles, Rosella Hart. Her name is sewn into the waistband of the skirt and top. I am sure Renee had more than one double, so I can confirm the name of at least one. Besides, on the nametag is written "Gabrielle's DBL Rosella Hart." Even though it isn't a costume from one of the stars or guest stars, I thought this was a really cool treasure. bd - -----Original Message----- From: owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org [mailto:owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Xena Torres Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 1:18 PM To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Zoe Bell pics at 3rd Annual World Stunt Awards Hey, thanks SO much for the link! There's a huge list of stunt doubles on this page! I hate how on tv they never list who these amazing people are. Maybe I can hunt down so other Xena stunt doubles besides the wonderful Zoe Bell. I would love the FULL name of Renee's double! ;) BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" >From: "Katsunori" >Reply-To: katsunori@excite.com >To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org >Subject: [chakram-refugees] Zoe Bell pics at 3rd Annual World Stunt Awards >Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:41:40 -0400 (EDT) > >Hi >I just found pics of Zoe (was LL's stunt double) on 3rd Annual World Stunt >Awards. She attended it with Quentin Tarantino, Monica Staggs on Kill bill. >http://www.worldstuntawards.com/ >Click on Press Service and choose "2003 Red Carpet" >There were 2 of Hi-Res pics > >She really look a like LL on the pics that is different from convention >pics. > >I hard she have fractured and dislocated her wrist at a rehearsal in the >final weeks of shooting Kill Bill and had 6 months of rehab but looks like >she is OK now from the pics. > >Also There were Jennifer Garner (Alias) with double Shauna Duggins pics in >"2003-Show" section > >Also there are more Zoe's pics on Star File Photo Agency site >http://www.starfileonline.com/eventpics.asp?EventName=3rd+Annual+World+Stun t+Awards&offset=-1 >But they don't allow you to download pics unless you pay for it. > >Her arm on the pic is like a log! >Enjoy! > >Katsu >The most personalized portal on the Web! >========================================================= >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. >========================================================= _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:27:33 -0500 From: Cousin Liz Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: [chakram-refugees] Renee's Double's Name (Was: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Zo=EB?= Bell pics at 3rd Annual World Stunt Awards 29 bookdaft wrote: > The costume I have is the BGSB top and brown skirt for one of Renee's > doubles, Rosella Hart. > I am sure Renee had more than one double, so I can confirm the name > of at least one. I've got a number of patterns used for sewing the Gabrielle belt. They have the following names on them: Alex Reekers Joanne Staveley (can't read the hand written last name clearly on this one) Renee O'Connor Robert Lee Rosella Hart Tammy Barker Trish Roberts - -- Cousin Liz eas01@fast.net Soulmates Xena Dinosaur Bards http://cousinliz.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:29:54 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: More on Captioning > ----------------- > Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Captioning [meredith ] > This is an very interesting post. I am a great fan of silent movies. I wonder if her experience is similar to what I found when I watch silent films What I find is that you really have to pay attention when watching silents. You can't be doing anything except watch the movie - if you are distracted there is no half heard dialog to help you catch up with the plot. You are forced to watch every nuance of a performance in order to follow the plot. I bet your sister probably picks up more about the characters when she watches a show than you do because she is more aware of physical clues in a character. The reason she may be more tolerant of bad actors is that they probably display emotion with broader strokes than most other actors. In silents the acting was much broader and we have a tendency to see it as "bad acting" but in reality the acting was extremely good. Without the luxury of dialog the actors had to use a pantomine that could not only display big emotiongs (fear, anger, etc.) but also the softer emotions (compassion, tenderness, etc.). The only difference I can see in the experience is that your sister is watching a medium that is based on written dialog and the silents weren't. The criteria of what is "well written" would be entirely different. In the silents you would have an emphasis of moving the plot along by action while today you use dialog to move the plot along. So I can understand why she is less tolerant of bad writing. In silent movies so much of what was going on is conveyed by the actors that writing itself could be weak and you still could have a great film. That isn't so now - while good acting can make up for bad writing sometimes - a well written script is a necessity today. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:37:23 -0500 > From: meredith > > Well, I can only respond based on how I know my sister watches tv. She > does so with the sound up even though the captioning's on, because her > hearing aid does give her some sounds. I know that she can sometimes get > as much (or more) out of an actor's physical performance than their vocal > one. (She hates it when the camera angle shows the back of a character's > head while they're speaking, for example.) If an actor has an emotive face > or uses expressive body language, that will help convey the same things as > the actor's tone of voice does. > There is another side to this coin -- I've noticed she's more tolerant of > bad actors than I am, if the actor is one of those with restrained body > movements but goes way over the top in their vocal delivery. If the actor > is way over the top in their body language, then she's more apt to agree > with me that they suck. :) > > She also notices the writing more than the average bear, too, and I think > she would even if she weren't a writer by trade, because she relies on the > captions. This is why she enjoys the better-written shows (X:WP, anything > Joss Whedon's involved in, Alias, Joan of Arcadia, CSI, etc.) and hates > sitcoms. The written words are right up there in the forefront, so if the > dialogue is stupid it's going to be a huge turn-off. > > If she were to read this she'd probably say "what the hell are you talking > about" :), but this is my perception, anyway ... hope it helps. > > > =============================================== > Meredith Tarr > New Haven, CT USA > mailto:meth@smoe.org > http://www.smoe.org/meth > =============================================== > Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series > http://muzak.smoe.org > =============================================== > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= > > ------------------------------ > > End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #50 > ************************************* ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:08:31 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings In a message dated 2/22/2004 8:50:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > And the earlier season Xena might have been slowed down by these guys but > they would never have been a significant threat. Callisto, Caesar and Alti > were really the only people in Xena's life who ever ALMOST beat her and > caused her grief. Never the warlord of the week. > > It was her mental state that was her greatest enemy in season four. And > that was what let these somewhat insignificant others get to trash the WP > in and only in Season four. > > I agree with you about the impact of Xena's mental state. However, we mustn't forget that it was very important early on to show this new female character as super formidable -- able to survive arrow wounds. RT talks about that in terms of Xena's credibility as an action hero. Once the audience accepted Xena as a nearly invincible warrior, I think there was more freedom to show her getting beat up a little more, without diminishing what had already been demonstrated. Although, even then, it was hard for folks to get past this particular "deconstruction," which I suppose made her look too "weak." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:08:33 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Award orphans (Was The Furies) In a message dated 2/22/2004 8:21:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, silenus@simnet1.demon.co.uk writes: > Aha! A fellow silver surfer? >> Yep, knockin' on the other side of half century. Brrrrrrr. I must admit it was a shock when I realised > > that Lucy was young enough to be my daughter. Not at all in keeping with > the way I thought of her! >> LOL! I did and still do. That's why it's a shock to see her looking older than talk show hosts and their guests. Brrrr again. > < watched the show when it started, but to begin with, I was a casual > viewer. I wasn't concerned if I missed an episode or two. Very soon, > however, I found myself recording episodes, jotting down little notes > about what happened in them, collecting any scraps of references to the > show. All behaviour that I would have sneered at previously. All the > while I thought I was watching the show just for the dominant/fighting > woman content. But deep down it must have been working its magic on me. >> Yep, sounds familiar. > > It wasn't till the episode "Callisto" that it all came to the surface > and I finally began to appreciate all the depths that the show has to > offer. >> Oooo, me too! Oh, wait. No it was Return of Cally that sealed it for me -- at the end, when Xena let Cally sink into supposed oblivion. I couldn't believe they'd let a "hero" to do that! I love philosophical/ethical issues, so that ep had me thinking for days. Years, apparently. Now that I think of it, I wonder if I would've appreciate XWP as much if I'd been in my teens or 20's. Sure, I still would've loved the butt-kicking and other aspects. But things were a lot more black and white for me back than. I wasn't as into ambiguity as I am now. > Nevertheless, every other show, however good, seems incomplete, just > because it isn't Xena. There's never been another show like this for me > and I expect there never will be. >> I used to wish I'd had Xena instead of Annie Oakley. Now, I'm not sure. Imagine the younger folks who may go another 50 or so years knowing there'll never be another show like XWP. Or, maybe we think that because we've already done our 50, so have less time for there to be another show like that? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:11:26 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] S(n)ide Comments [was: Quest] On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:14:34 EST, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/16/2004 2:26:16 AM Central Standard Time, jyoung@lava.net writes: >> (Surprised you didn't recognize the "Jackie-style", per Ife. ;) ) >> >LOL! Not everyone is a connoisseur like moi. - --_Well_, we all know KT is *uncultured* and *boorish*, eh?! *heehee!* LOL *Sigh*.....no helping that girl......;P LOL - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #52 *************************************