From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #51 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, February 22 2004 Volume 04 : Number 051 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (2) [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Captioning [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Captioning [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Captioning [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (3) [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Award orphans (Was The Furies) [Silenus ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:52:55 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (2) On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 08:16, KTL wrote: (huge snippage) > > > No. This time it all tied in perfectly and was absolutely true to the > character. But as I say, it's only in hindsight that I realized this. I > just couldn't REALLY figure out what was wrong. I mean the Xena we'd seen > since season one would reject that vision of herself, that insecurity over > being a warrior. Because she had massive self-confidence and belief > in herself AS A WARRIOR. (Not as a good person though. But that's not the > issue here.) Even as she starts her journey of reformation, she still > believes that she should continue to be a warrior. > > Again, this was something else absolutely set up in Sins Of The Past. Xena > has buried the tools of her trade. Because of meeting Hercules, she has > decided to try to do good. And she thinks this means she has to stop being > a warrior. Yeah. Some people see that as a sign that Xena was about to commit suicide. I just can't see that, at all. I agree with you - she had (IMO) decided to become a 'new person'.... > But suddenly she sees the women of Poteidia being taken into > slavery. And when she tries to help them, the slavers beat her up. They > don't all sit down to tea, to discuss the morality of slavery with her. > > So she unearths her tools because she needs them to save the women from a > life of slavery. ... and she found the 'same old person' worked best in the circumstances. > And she realizes that because of her skills, she should > stay a warrior. But now she's a warrior for Good. Agreed. In fact, she'd virtually said as much, I think, at the end of Unchained Heart. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:58:07 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Captioning On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:20, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snip) > Second, this made me want to ask a question directed to those familiar with > hearing-impaired fans. When I think of Xena, her voice is a key aspect. > The music is certainly a key aspect. I can certainly understand the > frustration of not having a more "total" appreciation of the show. I'm > interested in how you make up for that if you've never heard "true" sounds, > if you experienced hearing loss later in life, or if you are able to hear > something with an aide. Well, same applies in some respects to 'foreign' fans who hear XWP dubbed. Xena's voice is probably totally different for them. Do they lose a lot in the experience? I expect it really depends on whether the person doing the dubbing has a 'good' voice (I mean, expressive and appropriate for Xena). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:24:54 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Captioning On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:37, meredith wrote: > Hi, > > Ife inquired: > >How much do you "imagine"? What do you use as a source for that? How > > does what you "get" differ when it's lip reading, vs. having captioning, > > vs. getting > >to hear a little of what maybe you first got on your own? How much does > >seeing or hearing the words add to the *emotional* aspect of what you got > >from > >what you saw -- both personally and in terms of what was going on with the > >characters? Do you really learn that much more about the plot? Are there > >some eps > >where what you originally had to supply yourself was "better," the same or > >"worse" in some way than what you found out later? > > Well, I can only respond based on how I know my sister watches tv. She > does so with the sound up even though the captioning's on, because her > hearing aid does give her some sounds. I know that she can sometimes get > as much (or more) out of an actor's physical performance than their vocal > one. (She hates it when the camera angle shows the back of a character's > head while they're speaking, for example.) If an actor has an emotive face > or uses expressive body language, that will help convey the same things as > the actor's tone of voice does. I was going to say, she'd really miss something like Xena's voice-over "I decided to appeal to his sense of family values" when she kidnapped Ming in The Debt. But then I realised, I guess VO's would be captioned too, of course. > There is another side to this coin -- I've noticed she's more tolerant of > bad actors than I am, if the actor is one of those with restrained body > movements but goes way over the top in their vocal delivery. If the actor > is way over the top in their body language, then she's more apt to agree > with me that they suck. :) Probably more tolerant of weird accents, too, I should imagine. > She also notices the writing more than the average bear, too, and I think > she would even if she weren't a writer by trade, because she relies on the > captions. This is why she enjoys the better-written shows (X:WP, anything > Joss Whedon's involved in, Alias, Joan of Arcadia, CSI, etc.) and hates > sitcoms. The written words are right up there in the forefront, so if the > dialogue is stupid it's going to be a huge turn-off. I've found, on a couple of DVD's that had captioning on by default, that it was a major distraction from watching the screen. (Until I figured out how to turn it off). But of course, if you need it, then it's not a distraction it's a major asset. One thing I have found, on DVD movies, is that sometimes the captioning doesn't say the exact same words as the soundtrack. Usually this doesn't matter. What CC can't capture, of course, is the tone of voice, which can sometimes make all the difference in interpreting something, it can sometimes even reverse the sense of what is said. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:55:18 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 07:50, KTL wrote: > I again I find myself the recipient of a MASSIVE missive from Ife. I shall > therefore slice and dice my reply up into parts to not cause anyone's > inbox to faint from overload. > > > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > > The result is that we get an indecisive, insecure, beatable up by > > > anybody Warrior Princess, one who now asks strangers for advice, HELL, > > > asks suspect ENEMIES for advice, a person who has lost all her surety, > > > her confidence, and her trust and belief in herself. > > > > > > And many fans (me included) had MAJOR problems with this representation > > > of the WP. >> > > Ife replied: > > Really? You mean in terms of believability ('Xena would never do > > that")? Acceptance ("I can believe it, but I don't like it")? Both? > > No, in terms of what the hell are they doing? I got real tired of watching > my hero get beat up by two bit villains for the first time ever. It was > very disconcerting and just didn't fit the character real well. Since Lucy > played Xena filled with angst in season four, rather than dithering or > helplessly wringing her hands, or giving up without fighting (even though > it was no longer so easy for her nor absolutely guaranteed that she'd be > the winner), I DID believe this version of Xena. But I didn't understand > it. And I guess maybe I was afraid over how they'd resolve it. I agree about the two bit villains. Now, I could always believe that Callisto could beat up Xena (or at least, give Xena a run for it). She had the intensity. And Ares (plus of course, he was a god). And, dare I say it, I could believe it of Herc - after all, he was an immortal, son of Zeus, and a big guy. And Alti - she definitely looked big and strong enough to do Xena some serious damage. But I found it difficult to believe that a blowhard like Milo (Daughter of Pomira) would even cause Xena to break into a sweat. Even more so Najara, who just didn't look the part at all. Far too delicate. OK, so Xena was only firing on three cylinders at the time. Even so.... > Once she talked with Krishna, the real problem was illuminated. Xena had > been taught by Solon in Bitter Suite that vengeance is wrong, that one > must forgive those who have hurt you, that deep love transcends many > social or cultural rules. Particularly those that might demand such things > as a daughter killing her mother to avenge her father. Or a person killing > her best friend/lover (your choice) who unwittingly was manipulated into > killing your only child. > > The final lesson she has to accept to "complete the course" in Illusia > goes even deeper. She even has to let go of the hatred that led to her > killing Ming T'ien. She's got to be questioning that whole mission. If > someone she loves and respects and to whom she owes a great debt calls for > her to murder someone in cold blood (which I believe is the purpose of Lao > Ma telling Ming T'ien to give Xena the hairpin) it may not be right to do > their bidding. It might be right to refuse the mission. She now believes > that killing someone purely for vengeance is wrong. Does killing for > someone else's agenda even if it is for the greater good, also wrong? > Perhaps not. But Xena killed Ming T'ien absolutely out of vengeance, since > she'd already brought his castle down and destroyed his "face", made him > small as Lao Ma's message requested. I don't believe that. I think he was still, probably, extremely dangerous, and capable of causing enough trouble to cause many more deaths. So on balance, wasn't it better to make sure of him? > So Xena can't leave Illusia until > she "lets go" of her hatred towards Ming T'ien that caused her to murder > him out of furious anger. Interesting. On the Whoosh list we were discussing just this, and came to the conclusion that what was keeping Xena trapped in Illusia was the lie she'd told Gabs about Ming. That's what I thought TPTB were saying, not that I agreed with them. BUT - hate fits much better with the selection of 'spooks' in BS than guilt. Ming, Khrafstar, Caesar, Ares, Callisto. She had no reason to feel guilty about Caesar, Khrafstar or Ares, but she had plenty of reason to hate all five. And, "Hate is the star". Well spotted, thanks! cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 05:20:41 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] More on Captioning In a message dated 2/21/2004 2:50:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, meth@smoe.org writes: > Well, I can only respond based on how I know my sister watches tv. She > does so with the sound up even though the captioning's on, because her > hearing aid does give her some sounds. >> So maybe she can hear the music fairly well? What about something like the "whoosh" sound? I know that she can sometimes get > > as much (or more) out of an actor's physical performance than their vocal > one. (She hates it when the camera angle shows the back of a character's > head while they're speaking, for example.) If an actor has an emotive face > or uses expressive body language, that will help convey the same things as > the actor's tone of voice does. >> Yes, I always appreciated Lucy's physical performance, but doubly so, now that I'm trying a few eps with the sound off. At first I thought maybe it was because I had the benefit of hearing her before, which may still be the case somewhat. But after awhile, I forgot about superimposing her voice, and I still saw more than before. > She also notices the writing more than the average bear, too, and I think > she would even if she weren't a writer by trade, because she relies on the > captions. >> Oooo, I hadn't thought of that! The actors can sometimes "save" things with how they deliver lines, but that wouldn't work in your sister's case. <<> The written words are right up there in the forefront, so if the > dialogue is stupid it's going to be a huge turn-off. >> LOL! Does she say much about plot? > > If she were to read this she'd probably say "what the hell are you talking > about" :), but this is my perception, anyway ... hope it helps. >> Yes, it does. Thanks! I've also had professional experience with writing, but when I'm watching something, I'm mainly conscious of the performance and what I hear. In the past, I only used captioning when I couldn't figure out what someone was saying. Even then, I couldn't be sure the captioner got it right, as there were often obvious errors (e.g., "amazing" for "Amazon"). I used to wonder if the captions were done by a voice-translation machine or by a person. If it was the latter, I wondered what (if any) knowledge they had of the show. But I was never conscious of the writing in the same way as your sister. It's like she's watching parallel versions of the same story. Fascinating. One of the reasons this interests me is because I do a lot of work with diversity. It's hard for people to understand the concept of people having different "realities" unless they can see that played out in front of them. For example, we try to make sure there are people to do signing in workshops where there'll be someone who needs that. Usually there will be two signers who take turns. Everyone else will hear something and assume the rest of the folks interpret it the same way. One signer will give an interpretation. If the hearing impaired person ask questions, the second signer may try to help, often giving a slightly different interpretation. The HI person may ask, "Was he [the speaker] serious or joking," because the reaction of others in the room doesn't seem to match what was said. It's at that point that others will give their impressions (often wildly different), based on the speaker's tone, job title, diction, age, or a host of other factors. Suddenly the speaker and everybody else realize how much was going on in everybody's head that got projected onto the speaker and in different ways. Some of the most illuminating sessions are those with people who need translators of some sort because of sight, hearing or language, which ends up making everyone pay more attention to listening better and checking out their perceptions. They may be more considerate, since they can't fall back on "well, everybody should know what that means," which forces them to go into more depth about sensitive topics. They also usually have a richer understanding of what wouldn't normally be something they needed to pay attention to in their "world" (e.g., of sight or hearing). - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 05:20:44 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (4) In a message dated 2/21/2004 11:55:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > IFE: > >In the scenes with Aiden and Njara, Xena listens with her > usual skepticism. > >Yet she essentially defers to Gabs ("Sure, if that's what you > want") even when > >her instincts are screaming, "It's too good to be true." In > the past, Xena > >never would've backed off like that, without at least > remaining more vigilant > >or insisting that Gabs respect her greater experience (as with > Hope). She's > >willing to leave Gabs in Aiden's and Njara's hands in a way > she wouldn't have before. > > > > Exactly. And this is what was so disconcerting to so many of us. WHY is > Xena suddenly insecure and not following her instincts? What's happened to > her witchy sense? What the heck is going on here? > > And then as I say, for me The Way explains it all. But the change in Xena > has almost nothing to do specifically with anything Gabrielle is doing or > feeling or desiring. It's all internal. Xena has lost her self-confidence > due to a sea change in her world view. That's what I think we're seeing in > season four, that's what Rob and RJ were tryna tell us. >> Yes! My point was that I saw Xena reacting differently to Gabs in S4. She treats/sees Gabs differently because of what's going on with *her*, not because of Gabs. One of the major reasons we know Xena's going through something is because of this. As a result, I got to see Lucy give some performances that weren't typical of Xena. > Ife: > She's focused on *wanting* to find good (the glass > half full, rather > >than half empty) where she doesn't necessarily see it, because > she wants so > >badly for Gabs to find joy, meaning, a "good" life -- which > she fears Gabs can't > >have at her side. > > > > > As she always has. "You know where I'm headed they'll be trouble." She was > always willing to let Gabrielle go, to let her lead her life without Xena > in it. Broke her little heart to do so, but her love for Gabrielle was > always far greater than her love for herself. (Her love for a number of > other people also.) >> True. My point here was that Xena usually preferred to err on the side of caution (glass half empty) to protect Gabs, whereas Gabs was the one to urge giving the benefit of the doubt. In S4, Xena tries to err more on the side of hoping someone like Aiden or Njara will be good for Gabrielle. So we get to see Xena being more of a follower, rather than taking charge and right off the bat saying, "Gabs, this person seems too good to be true. I'm going to be watching them like I did Hope." > -- her own conflictedness, her > greater openness > >to giving Gabs space, > > > No, again I'd have to argue with this as being typical, not new. She never > stopped Gab from doing anything. >> Perhaps we see "space" differently. Early on, Xena essentially denied Gabrielle space by going solo, as in Chariots, Path Not Taken, Death in Chains, Mortal Beloved. Other times, she drew parameters around the space -- e.g., taking the breast dagger away from Gabs, warning Gabs not to talk to Petracles, ordering her around in the Price. Or, she gave Gabs the space to leave entirely (e.g., for the Academy, to marry Perdy or go back to Poteidaia), which would no longer necessitate any negotiations about space. Sure, Xena didn't stop Gabs from getting thrown in prison (twice) or becoming an Amazon Princess, but Xena wasn't there to stop her. Gabs bought the breast dagger, messed with the Titans and befriended the Horde in spite of Xena's wishes. The Greater Good was one of the few times Xena not only let Gabs take the lead in a dangerous situation, but suggested it. (I won't count the fact that Xena was incapacitated anyway.) Yes, Xena let Gabs travel with her and encouraged Gabs to pursue her dreams. However, I would argue that a lot of what Gabs initiated herself was because Xena *couldn't* stop her, not because Xena didn't stop her, regardless of how right or willing Xena might've been if she'd had a choice. > She also never stepped in and told Gab that since her world view was 180 > degrees from Xena's that it was wrong or misguided. Just the opposite, in > fact. >> Agreed. I wasn't suggesting that her respect or support changed. There was no difference to me in her attitudes and behavior towards > > Gabrielle in season four that wasn't already part of the characters' > relationship and had been from season one on. With the additional nuances > of Gabrielle as a physical fighter from season two on. >> To me, working with Gabs as a full partner vs. leaving Gabs in a tavern is a major change in Xena's attitude and behavior. "I know what's best" or "stay here and twiddle your thumbs" or "get behind me" were based more on Gabs' lack of experience in the beginning. As we both seem to agree, Xena no longer operated like that by S4. Her behavior in S4 wasn't based on Gabs' abilities as a fighter, but on Xena's own conflictedness. > Ife: > her struggle to keep Gabs safe when she > herself might be the biggest threat. > Yes, Xena's world had changed. How could > she not see or > >react to Gabs differently, when she'd seen that world end like > her worst > >nightmare -- Gabrielle on a (presumably) Roman cross, with > Xena helpless to do > >anything about it? > > > > Because the reaction was to her concept of herself and how her life's > choices apparently would lead to Gabrielle having to die for Xena's sins. >> We're both saying the behavior changes came because of Xena's internal struggle. I'm simply taking it a step further to say that I saw her treat Gabs differently as a result. In many ways, she was even more fearful of Gabs' being with her than she was in S1. She reverted back to her old behavior (e.g., leaving Gabs behind) except she no longer had the old confidence that she could protect Gabs. > I saw no changes in how she was reacting to Gabrielle. She'd always had a > kind of humble benign neglect towards Gabrielle's decisions and actions > (except when actively saving her little bubble butt) and I didn't see any > difference in that in season four.>> I'd disagree with "benign neglect," as I thought Xena showed genuine respect for Gabs' decisions and actions even early on when Gabs got in trouble. As I say above, that was often after the fact. It's very possible Xena would've stopped Gabs if given the chance, but I agree that Xena was supportive anyway. > > EXCEPT that she does keep trying to give Gabrielle away more than usual in > season four. This is the only thing the WP can come up with. << I saw Xena trying to stay with Gabs despite the vision. She can't come up with anything herself, so she follows Gabs' lead when possible. She acquiesces to Gabs' arguments about the vision in Past Imperfect. She's glad Gab saves her in Locked Up. She hopes Gabs is right about finding meaning for herself through Njara, Aiden and in India. When she realizes some of those alternatives are frauds, she doesn't suggest that Gabs go back to Poteidaia. In the past, Xena left the choice to leave up to Gabs. The difference in S4 is that Xena's the one choosing to leave. In the past, Xena saw her influence and warrior life as bad for Gabrielle. Those aren't issues anymore, so much as some mysterious event that seems outside of Xena's control. To me, all that represents other signficant changes in attitude and behavior regarding Gabs - -- some of it based on Xena's acceptance of herself as a positive influence in Gabs' life, some of it on a new source of inner turmoil. We can't see what's going on in Xena's head, except when she's thinking about the vision. We know that one result is indecisiveness, which we can only get through observing what she does or says. My perception is that most of the indecisiveness comes out in her interactions with Gabrielle or in situations related to Gabs. Otherwise, Xena's her usual decisive, kick-butt self -- fighting Pompey and Caesar, asking villagers to burn down their homes, going to prison, kidnaping that girl from the Horde, fighting the slavers Najara tells them about. Maybe I'm missing something. What makes Xena seem strange, insecure, indecisive, etc. that doesn't involve what she says to or how she treats Gabrielle? If what Xena says or does regarding Gabs is the same as always, then what else is so "disconcertingly" different? -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 05:20:47 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season Four (3) In a message dated 2/21/2004 11:37:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > << Xena wasn't reacting to "the" world. > She reacted to *her* world, > > > Same thing. The only "world" that matters is the one we live in.>> Yes, that was my point. Except I'd go a step further and say what matters is the world that's in our heads, which may be different from the physical world we live in. Xena was reacting to her fears about the vision, whereas Gabrielle was saying the threat might not be real. In the end, Xena decided not to let it be real in her physical world. It might not've been, if Cally had obeyed orders. > > Ife: > which Gabrielle was integral to. Alti's vision changed > Xena on many > >levels > > > > Well not changed. Because it didn't last. Xena REACTED to it for a while. > And then when she had her epiphany with Krishna, she stopped letting her > fears over what was going to happen interfere with her daily life. She got > on with her job. >> You don't think we incorporate major experiences like that into how we may see ourselves or others? That we don't change in terms of maybe treating something we almost lost as more precious? True, some people don't, or revert to old patterns, but for others the change becomes a part of them. I think it was significant that Xena believed she was *supposed* to be a warrior, rather than accidentally forced to become one, and that she could have a good impact *because* she was a warrior, rather than in spite of being one or as. > >Xena can't take herself, Gabs or their being together for > granted in the way she could before. > > > I think she never took staying alive (with or without Gabrielle) for > granted. >> I mean in the way that we know we can die or lose someone at any moment, but we get in our cars or walk up a flight of stairs anyway. You might view routine activities differently, if you've been told you have a terminal illness or may lose your eyesight. > It JUST struck me that Xena doesn't seem to consider that dying on that > cross in the vision might be happening for the Greater Good. I think for > Xena, dying for the Greater Good means fighting to the death for it, not > being passively executed for it. >> Perhaps. I didn't get the impression she cared that much about her being on the cross or why, so much as that Gabrielle was with her and she was helpless to save her. > Ife: > She doesn't trust herself anymore to know > what direction > >might be best. She's more willing to follow Gabs' instincts, > more focused on letting Gabs find her own way. > > > > Well she never, ever tried to move Gab from her way. I didn't mean that. Before, they focused on responding to pleas for help and doing random good deeds. In S4, they go on travels more specifically related to Gabs' spiritual quest or curiosity. > Xena is one of the few people in the whole series who always respected > Gabrielle. She defends her many times against detractors. And especially > when people dismiss her for being naive and sometimes, for not being a > warrior. Xena always acted with respect towards Gabrielle and her journey. > And I just don't see any difference in that in season four. >> I've always argued that myself. As I say in another post, I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise. > > > Ife: > It's not just the usual > respect for Gabs as an equal partner > > > As I said before, I don't think that Xena and Gabrielle ever became full > partners. >> In whose eyes? Xena's? Gabs'? Both? If they were, Xena wouldn't have kept leaving Gabrielle behind. >> You mean *attempt* to leave Gabs in S4. You don't see the vision as a traumatic reason for that? Did she try to leave Gabs after S4? > Xena loves Gabrielle and just doesn't want to > take a chance on losing her, or rather, having the WORLD lose her or > people like her. So she leaves her behind endlessly. She doesn't trust > Gabrielle's ability to save herself. And therefore I don't think Xena ever > considered Gabrielle a true partner in warrior terms. Someone to cherish, > protect and keep safe? Yes. Someone to send out or even to have accompany > one on a specific probable death mission? No. >> Again, I would agree with you on that for S1&2. She did that during the rift for other reasons. After that, I just don't see that Xena didn't trust Gabs' ability to save herself -- or Xena, for that matter -- and wanted to keep Gabs safe at all cost, except because of the vision. It seems you feel their relationship got stuck in S2. > Ife: > It's ironic. > >One minute it's like, "Gabrielle knows best what she needs." > The next, Xena > >makes a unilateral decision to leave, like a parent who knows > what's best for her child. > > > > Yup. Exactly like a parent. And not like a partner at all. >> In that instance. We agree that Xena behaved atypically in S4. I think that was one example. However, I see that as having more to do with Xena's lack of confidence in herself, not in Gabrielle. > > > Ife: > She treats Gabs as though Gabs is more fragile, > not because she is, > >but because Xena is so worried about doing something that will > break Gabs. > > > > > Exactly. Again, I think that Gabrielle stands for all the innocents whom > Xena was never able to save in her life. Always has. In Xena's mind and > heart, she represents Lyceus, M'Lila, Akemi, Solon, and ultimately, even > the lost childhood of Eve, her separation from her mother which made Xena > unable to save her baby daughter from being raised to be the Bitch of > Rome. >> LOL! I saw her as worried about Gabrielle purely for Gabrielle's sake. Unless you mean "stands for" in our or the writers' views. > > In fact, this is exactly what I think was behind Xena's response to > Gabrielle's clinical death in Is There A Doctor In The House. That the > HUGE outpouring of grief was because Xena's been here before. And she's > often been unsuccessful in the past in saving too many of those she loved > from an early death, often as a result of war. >> I would agree with you there. > I think it's very telling that Gabrielle became a full warrior with pointy > weapons only after Xena became pregnant. And Xena accepted this, due to > their recent history, but also I think out of respect towards Gabrielle's > continuing journey. It was way too late by then to worry about everything > changing for Gabrielle because of her first kill. >> I do hope the S5 commentaries cover the extent to which Gabrielle's warrior mode got accelerated because of Lucy's pregnancy. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:15:03 +0000 From: Silenus Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Award orphans (Was The Furies) IfeRae writes > >I'm with you there. I did watch Buffy on occasion and Alias farily >regularly, but not with any real enthusiasm. Not sure why, but XWP was so >*adult* to >me. I just couldn't get into Buffy's teenaged angst or Sydney's 20-something >angst. I know both shows had more than that, and I don't mean to dismiss them. > Just personal tastes of an old biddy who wanted something I could sink my >teeth in. > >Like you, I do believe it was Lucy's performance that gave "maturity" to >Xena, even though she also could be my daughter. Aha! A fellow silver surfer? I must admit it was a shock when I realised that Lucy was young enough to be my daughter. Not at all in keeping with the way I thought of her! > Perhaps it was because Lucy >brought so much -- both youthful risk taking and enthusiasm, as well as the >groundedness of someone who'd seen some of the world and had a child to take >care >of. Whatever, she sucked me in before I knew what had happened. I still think over those early days, trying to figure out exactly what happened to me. In 1997, Herc started on our terrestrial tv and I admit I started watching for what I believe is known hereabouts as the t&a content. Actually, I should be more accurate. I started watching for the show's portrayal of powerful fighting women. Then they started running trailers for a coming show called Xena: Warrior Princess. The trailers concentrated on Lucy as Xena and for me she looked the perfect female warrior. A dream come true. Of course, I watched the show when it started, but to begin with, I was a casual viewer. I wasn't concerned if I missed an episode or two. Very soon, however, I found myself recording episodes, jotting down little notes about what happened in them, collecting any scraps of references to the show. All behaviour that I would have sneered at previously. All the while I thought I was watching the show just for the dominant/fighting woman content. But deep down it must have been working its magic on me. It wasn't till the episode "Callisto" that it all came to the surface and I finally began to appreciate all the depths that the show has to offer. > Just wasn't >the same for any other show, and it was hard for me to spend time on fare that >paled by comparison in my eyes. > Watching Xena has been an education for me in what a tv show can do. I get more out of other shows now, because I understand and appreciate plot, music, production values, character development, etc so much more. Nevertheless, every other show, however good, seems incomplete, just because it isn't Xena. There's never been another show like this for me and I expect there never will be. - -- "Well, congratulations! Looks like we're a two-horse family." - Xena: "Animal Attraction" Silenus, an over-exuberant fan ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 07:49:32 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Ratings On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Cheryl LaScola wrote: > Just a couple of comments to follow up on KT's post. > The question of whether TPTB decision to take chances in Season 4 > resulted in some loyal fans becoming less interested, thus the drop in > ratings. > > Some fans were also late comers. I had never seen (or heard of) the > show until I stumbled on it in the 1st set of reruns in Season 4 > (luckily hitting Sin Trade 1st). WOAH! What did you make of THAT one! Man, what a start! And you know, that's a very good point. I do tend to see all fans as equal. I don't give a damn about when you joined the fandom. I don't consider that being an early fan makes you a better fan or a more privileged or more knowing fan. If anything, it was the continued number of new fans joining in on the show that kept it on the air. Chris Carter has talked about this--how some of the early fans of X-Files hated that so many people found and loved the show in later seasons. For some reason, they felt this detracted from their "coolness". He of course thought the increase in fans was not only great, but necessary for the show's continued success. Gods bless the genre geeks who were the first fans of Xena and who kept the pot warm until the rest of us found the show and jumped in. It certainly helped XWP tremendously that Hercules was the lead in for it. Hercules had a good fan base of its own and many of them stayed tuned for Xena. The only time I ever made "converts" of people to XWP was in Season five, when I turned three of my work colleagues onto it. (Despite having tried to get people interested in the show from season three on.) My most spectacular failure on that score was when the department secretary taped Bitter Suite for me when I was FORCED to go to a wedding (No, not my own.) I went by her house to pick up the tape that night and she opened the door to me and said, "This is the show you keep telling everyone to watch right? This is the show you love so much, right? THIS is it, right?" I beamed, SURE she was going to thank me for leading her to it. Instead she handed me the tape on the door step and said, "Get outta my house." BWAAHAHAHAHAHHAH. Of course, when I went home and watched it, I realized that it might be considered a bit over the top. She refused to listen to my comments that not every ep was like that one... I was not sure what was going on for a > while because I soon discovered XWP was also shown nightly on USA > (S1-3). I finally found the internet and all became clear. LOL! Well, of course that's another thing. The only thing REALLY different between the experiences of people who saw the eps at their first airing date and people who saw them at any time after, is that the earlier fans got to read the opinions of and discussions by other fans as the story unfolded. People got to guess where Rob and RJ were going. Or to expound upon things they'd done without knowing where they were ultimately going to end up. And of course, the Xena online lists one joined also could color one's perceptions of the show. The very earliest fan discussion occured on the official Xena Net Forum. This was pretty much a wide open list and anybody could join. Steve Sears and Rob Fields (editor) posted on there I believe, as they did on some other lists. They also got in on some of the early AOL Xena chatroom stuff. Eventually, the Net Forum became known as the Nut Forum, due to some of the more crazed fans who got on there and just got furious with any opinions different than their own. It was a constant flambe on there. Eventually fans started their own lists. And some of these were very selective in who they allowed to join and what they allowed people to say. Eventually Steve and Rob dropped off (or at least went into deep lurking) on all the public lists. Steve would sometimes reply on the nut forum when the nuts got really out of hand and were vicously attacking the creative staff on a personal level or claiming ulterior motives from them due to the way the posters interpreted the stories. Steve would defend his friends and colleagues in a calm, mature manner. I always remember watching Sears get hounded at one of the cons from a group of absolutely furious and screaming IN YOUR FACE! fans, OUTRAGED over season three. Steve stayed totally calm, listened respectfully and just said things like, "That's not the way we saw it." They left to go in to the con area where the next star had just been announced. I walked up to Steve and told him that I thought that season three was amazing, extraordinary television and thanked him and all the staff for transforming XWP into a great epic. He said, "Don't let THEM hear you say that or they'll be torching your car in the parking lot." Heh. So, I went > on a fast forward trip through seasons 1-3 nightly while still catching > S4 once a week. Ironically it was the complex human dilemmas that > hooked me on the show and as a result found S1 and S2 enjoyable but not > riveting. Oh, I'm totally in agreement with that. That's absolutely true for me also. Even though I did fall in love with Lucy as Xena in season two. In season three, I also fell in love with the show. Watching once a week, S4 had me riveted and waiting anxiously > for what happens next. > > The point to all of this is ratings are what they are, but I would bet > many more XWP fans were made in S4 than walked away. I don't know what to say about that. Because the rating (IF the ones on Whoosh are correct--I haven't been able to confirm them anywhere else) do show that drop. And a drop obviously comes from people no longer watching a show they used to. And of course the other thing about you coming in at season four first is that you wouldn't have any idea of how Xena used to be, yes? And so you wouldn't see a difference. How soon did you start watching seasons one and two? How many eps of season four had you caught before seeing any of the others? I'm certainly NOT trying to diminish your own experience nor deny it. I am just truly curious as to how it played out. > > I would also argue that the moving of XWP timeslots like a pinball was > also a big issue. Once it moved out of the 7 pm time slot to Saturday > afternoons I am sure they lost many viewers (the fair whether fans who > likely make up the ratings base). > > As for Xena's becoming a beatable by anyone warrior, I beg to differ. > In the early ep, "Family Affair" Xena says to Gabrielle....(not exact > words) > "I am searching for answers too, but I know it will be easier if we > find them together". My point is that from the beginning of the season > we were told that both X&G were on a spiritual quest to find their path. > Sometimes even the most confident and strong leaders go through a stage > of self doubt. Yes exactly. And stuff like this being explored is what made XWP such an extraordinary T&A action adventure show. It's what raised it above so many other stories in the genre. And actually, the soul-searching of many of the characters in this genre, the "damaged" aspect, outsider aspect of so many of them is what makes this genre valuable and deserving of attention. At least to me. ;-> IF this aspect gets focused on. When it doesn't, all you have is a load of gimmicky plotted, special effect laden, cool fights filled visuals. Sure the audience might ooooh and ahhhhh over them but you gotta explore a person's heart to really make the audience care about what happens to them. And XWP did this in spades. (What does THAT mean, by the way? Why not "in clubs"? Or "in diamonds"? "In diamonds" sounds even more impressive to me...) Xena discovered at the end of S3 just how much the Bard > meant to her and I think it was natural (and human) for Xena to be > distracted by things like the vision, worrying not only if she could > protect G, but also care for Gabrielle's soul and the effect her dark > side had on her. The fact that Xena was not always a comic book hero > like Superman was what made her special.... she had flaws and sometimes > took it on the chin, keeping us wondering how the journey would end. > She may have lost some battles, but never the endgame. > I absolutely agree with all of that. EXCEPT that in season four, we have Xena literally getting the teeth beat out of her head by Najara, we have the dweebyguy in Daughter of Pomira wiping the floor up with her, we have Xena being unable to defend herself against Aiden's mind control. Hell, even in the comedies, we have Xena being bested--by lice! And the earlier season Xena might have been slowed down by these guys but they would never have been a significant threat. Callisto, Caesar and Alti were really the only people in Xena's life who ever ALMOST beat her and caused her grief. Never the warlord of the week. It was her mental state that was her greatest enemy in season four. And that was what let these somewhat insignificant others get to trash the WP in and only in Season four. > Enough rambling from me Gods, you can stop rambling!? Wow! I never realized that...grin KT > > Cheryl ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #51 *************************************