From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V4 #39 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, February 12 2004 Volume 04 : Number 039 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 3rd season DVD reviews [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season 3 technical details [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Xener season 3 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 3rd season DVD reviews [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 3rd season DVD reviews [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xener season 3 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Season 3 technical details [Meredith Tarr Yep, so why not *two* commentaries? As I've said though, Sin Trade is one > > ep that cries out for a "how it was made" type commentary (The Debts is the > > other obvious one). *Any* of the episodes can have a commentary about > acting and story issues, and many of them will have. Only a few are really > > suited to a commentary such as I've described. > Well, you'll be happy to know there's quite a bit of production/location commentary for the Debt on the S3 DVD's. So far, I've checked out the interviews/commentaries through Bitter Suite. There's more from the production staff this time around. That said, I found the BS commentary a little disappointing. Everyone talked about how difficult it was to do and why, but it's hard coming away with a sense of how they pulled it together. I think a lot of that is because everyone had their hands full with their own piece of the puzzle. Most said half the time they weren't sure what Rob was after and expressed surprise that it had come out so well. They seemed awed by others' contributions. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:45:20 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season 3 technical details In a message dated 2/10/2004 1:53:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, outback@creationent.com writes: > I just picked up my set from Best Buy during lunch today and they're > close-captioned. > So is mine, which I ordered online. (All I have to do is hit "mute" on my TV remote, and I get captions.) I wish the commentaries were captioned, as there were a few exchanges between LL&ROC that I couldn't understand. Thanks to Meredith and others who pushed for that, as we all benefit. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:48:43 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xener season 3 Got my season three set from Best Buy this morning. And then I spent the whole rest of the day watching it. So far everything's been excellent. I started with the Debt of course. On each disk, at least one ep has full commentary. The commentary ep also has a separate interview piece about it. All other eps that I checked have at least an interview on them, so every ep has something. I've watched about half the interviews. They run about 7 or 8 minutes long. The interview pieces all start with shots from the ep under discussion. Excellent editing on these. There's a stellar cast of people on the interviews. On the ones I've watched so far, on the production end we hear from Rob, RJ, Eric Gruendeman, Liz Friedman, Rob Gillies, Bernie Joyce and John Cavell; writers Armus & Foster, Coyle, and Sears; directors Oley Sassone, Andrew Merrifield, Rick Jacobson and John Laing; and actors Lucy, Renee, Hudson, Ted, and Alexandra Tidings. There are more people listed on the credits, like Rob Field, but I haven't run across any commentary from them. Yet. On the credits for the whole shebang, Sharon Delaney is listed as one of the producers and also as the interviewer and creative consultant for the set. Very nice work--this package is something to be proud of. Kym Taborn gets a credit mention too, as the producer/interviewer for the Sacrifice Retrospective Interviews. The Debt commentary was done by Rob and Lucy and it was very good, loaded with bits of info on what Rob had wanted to achieve and where the influences came from. (He called these scenes homages, Lucy called them rip-offs.) The separate interview pieces on the Debt were also excellent. I wish Jacqueline Kym and Martin Csokas had been available to talk about their characters. During the Debts interview and/or commentary, Rob, Lucy, RJ, and Eric Gruendeman all said that the Debts were their favorite eps and the ones they were most proud of. Lucy mentioned Adventures in the Sin Trade as her other favorite one. Director Oley Sassone said it was one of the most complex scripts he had ever gotten on any televisions show and that it was really great that they did this epic production on television. My only complaint is that they didn't do commentary on the Debt II. BUT Rob does say at the end of Debt I, "Well I don't think all of fandom is going to get a chance to see our commentary on part two. But perhaps at another time". YES! PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE! "Cause I actually like part two better than part one. Hmmmm. Have to go home and watch it." And Lucy replies, "That's really good, yeah. That is a good one, I remember. It's one of the few I do remember." I wish they would also take these two parters and cut them into one continued show for the DVDs. Not re-edit them much, just take out the "Last week on Xena" part and the double credits. I guess you'd have to run both end credits though, if anything was different from one ep to the next. But it would make for a smoother show and would keep us from getting half a commentary next time. I also watched Bitter Suite with the Lucy/Renee commentary turned on. They are their usual goofy selfs, forgetting half the stuff, laughing at inappropriate moments, (though, as someone who always laughs out loud when the crucifixion scene comes on in BS, I was glad to hear them guffaw at it also. Lucy says, "It's like, 'I'm crucified. But I'm okay with it!'" They found the Gabdrag hilarious also. They talked about the second unit having shot most of that with some guy in drag being dragged as Gabrielle. Renee said all she did was lie in a patch of sand kind of roll around so they could get close-ups of her. Anyway, everything I've seen so far has been excellent and very interesting or at least fun. Of course, the source material is so good, it'd be very hard to make a boring package out of this season. Ahhhhhhh. The blessed Season three... KT To unsubscribe: From your email program, send a blank message to: flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flawless/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:07:48 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 3rd season DVD reviews On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:45, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Well, you'll be happy to know there's quite a bit of production/location > commentary for the Debt on the S3 DVD's. Ooooh goody! It'd probably be too much to hope for that they give the precise map co-ordinates of the battle scene** . But any information is welcome. ** I've searched for that location - you'd think it would be easy to find - a grassy plain with Mount Ruapehu (which I'm fairly sure it is) rising right behind it. But though there are two or three areas around Ruapehu that look promising, they none of them quite 'fit' - in particular, they're all covered either in scrub or in tussock - no way could you gallop horses across them. I've almost come to the conclusion that the foreground is in a different location and the mountain in the background is CGI'd in - but if there's a join, it's very hard to spot. TPTB did just that with the 'love on horseback' scene when Borias rides off towards the mountain - it was shot at Bethells - but when you know, it's quite easy in that shot to spot how the mountain was added. > So far, I've checked out the > interviews/commentaries through Bitter Suite. There's more from the > production staff this time around. That said, I found the BS commentary a > little disappointing. Everyone talked about how difficult it was to do and > why, but it's hard coming away with a sense of how they pulled it together. > I think a lot of that is because everyone had their hands full with their > own piece of the puzzle. Most said half the time they weren't sure what > Rob was after and expressed surprise that it had come out so well. They > seemed awed by others' contributions. > > -- Ife I think, in many of these eps, it doesn't all 'make sense' until it's cut together. Which is maybe why Lucy's often vague about details of episodes. Since the scenes weren't shot in order, and frequently (I think) scenes from different episodes would be shot 'next to' each other, I'd say that the episode director would know what was going on but the actors would only have a vague idea. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:36:26 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 3rd season DVD reviews On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:27, A. Reddecliffe wrote: > > (Hmm, I missed Ann's original post somehow. I presume it was Ann's, > > since KT was replying to her) > > And I was replying to someone else. I believe it was me who started the > issue of ROC and TJ on Sin Trade Hope I didn't sound too negative about it. :) > > > > > I would like to know why ROC > > > > chose to shadow TJ. Was it just that she didn't have a lot to do in > > > > that > > > > ep and decided to take the opportunity, or was it that she > > > > particularly wanted to work with TJ. > > > > T J certainly has a very distinctive style of camera work. I'm not sure > > that he'd be the most obvious choice for a beginning director to model > > themselves on. > > There is also the issue that ROC consistently talks about how much she > likes the comedies. When she did the London convention she was talking > about her love of slapstick and she really liked that aspect of ISAIH. > From that POV it is interesting that she shadowed TJ - yes, he can do > comedy, but he is much more of a visual director and his work really comes > across so well in big dramas. Yes, I'd put him and Oley Sassone (The Debt) near the top of my list for visual impact. And also whoever did Destiny (believe it or not, on the Whoosh list they're actually having an in-depth discussion about an episode! - - to wit, Destiny - and that reminded me how visually glorious that episode was. It certainly stands out in my memory as the first Xena ep that was exceptional in that respect. And that was directed by... (checks the credits) - Rob Tapert! I really didn't know that. Or I'd forgotten. Somehow, we get so tied up debating RT's influence on the overall Xena storyline, we forget he's also a director of (if Destiny is anything to go by) no mean ability. > Someone should give him a movie to do, you > can just imagine how awesome his work could look on a big screen. It would indeed. Do we know who's going to direct the if-it-ever-happens Xena movie? (That's probably the most premature question of the decade, now I come to think of it...) > At that > point, I am sure ROC was expressing an interest in directing rather than > preparing for an actual script. More than likely, as someone suggested, it was the only time ROC was 'free', for obvious reasons. > > Was this 'The Way' we're discussing? > > The whole India arc needs a reflection in retrospect, but we were > suggesting (or I was anyway) that a commentry on The Way would be > interesting now. Regardless of any religious controversy, I think The Way > was the most violent episode of any season, ironic when you think that it > is remembered for the final scene when Gabrielle throws the staff away. > The violence in Way was, in some senses more shocking than even in FIN. > What do TPTB feel about that now? Yes, I agree. I winced at that fight in Between the Lines, but I actually love to watch it. Xena was getting comprehensively beaten up by Alti (and so was Gabrielle), but somehow I could accept that - maybe because she still had all her arms ;) But in The Way, when Indrajit cut Xena's arms off, that makes me cringe inwardly. Far more so than the beheading in FIN, for some reason. I suppose because we didn't actually see Xena get beheaded - all we saw was a red mist from Xena's point of view - and after all, she had intended to go down fighting. Then when we saw her headless corpse, well, shocking though it was, she was already dead. > > Part of the controversy that was generated was, I think, because it made > > pacifism look ridiculous. I think the fans who complained about that > > were > > indulging in the fallacy (shared by many fans over many different issues) > > of > > reading a universal message into the actions of one character. In other > > words, "because Gabby's brand of pacifism is ridiculous for her in her > > position, TPTB are rubbishing pacifism in general". I'm certain this > > wasn't TPTB's intention; they wanted to show only how Gabrielle was > > conflicted, not to make some sweeping philosophical or moral statement. > > Just as Xena was uncertain of her 'way'. IMO. > > Some of the inconsistencies are acceptable in exploring a conflicted > situation. How can anyone lead a non-violent life in a violent lifestyle? Don't know about 'lifestyle', but Gandhi certainly led a non-violent life in a violent situation (at least, going by the movie). But as he explained in the movie, non-violence was the best tactic available in the circumstances. OTOH, in Gabrielle's case, her pronounced non-violent attitude probably was not the best tactic. > It is one thing to show the character being conflicted, provided the > integrity of the character is maintained. I believe some of the objections > came when people believed that the integrity was being compromised. There > are times for everyone when we don't know what is the right thing to do, we > would do what is right if we could only work out what that was. It is > valid for the X & G characters to explore that and to make mistakes and > compromises, provided that their integrity is maintained. There was a fine > line to draw between conflict and hypocrisy and they didn't always get it > right. I agree there. To me, Gabby looked highly hypocritical when she was urging the Amazons on to do battle in 'Endgame'. But in many ways this is a matter of individual viewpoints - what seems hypocritical to one viewer, may just seem to another to be the character pragmatically trying to do the best she could in an impossible situation. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:44:51 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xener season 3 On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:48, KTL wrote: > > During the Debts interview and/or commentary, Rob, Lucy, RJ, and Eric > Gruendeman all said that the Debts were their favorite eps and the ones > they were most proud of. Lucy mentioned Adventures in the Sin Trade as her > other favorite one. > Yay! Go Lucy!! That gal has *EXCELLENT* taste! ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:36:46 -0800 (PST) From: Meredith Tarr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season 3 technical details Hi, wrote: > I just picked up my set from Best Buy during lunch > today and they're > close-captioned. Yay!! This makes me very happy. :) Now I can get my sister a belated birthday present. Thanks, Meredith meth@smoe.org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:38:56 -0600 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] Season 3 technical details Meredith Tarr said, in a conversation about Closed Captioning: "Meredith (who promises to shut up about this now :) meth@smoe.org" Meredith, DON'T shut up about it. The reason so many of us watched Xena is, as the producers said, because we wanted to know that Xena was inside US. Be the person you are meant to be. I have several friends who are disabled, some blind, but not presently deaf, though I have a friend who is an ASL (American Sign Language) interpreter, and I have received, let's say, an education. When I do treadmill at the YWCA, there are TV's on with the sound turned down, and closed captioning on. It's been interesting to "watch" TV and "listen" more with my eyes, and to the visual pace, and to body language. Once, when I was done working out, the man next to me said something in a rather ugly way, to the effect that, he was asking if I was done "watching" the program, and that there was nothing he could really get out of it anyway because there was no sound. I said, blithly, responding to his prejudice about Closed Caption, that, no, I didn't like the program because of the violence. Other than than, I "got" stuff out of it just fine. Go Meredith! Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:51:21 -0600 From: "Laconia" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 3rd season DVD reviews I remember when The Way was first aired and some Hindus got so upset about the depiction of one of their gods in the media. I couldn't for the life of me wrap my mind around the whole idea of why they were so upset. It seemed like a medieval reaction. Then the Taliban happened, and I began to understand that some people in the world were/are still living in medieval times in regard to attempts to impose their religious beliefs on others. > > The whole India arc needs a reflection in retrospect, but we were suggesting > (or I was anyway) that a commentry on The Way would be interesting now. > Regardless of any religious controversy, I think The Way was the most > violent episode of any season, ironic when you think that it is remembered > for the final scene when Gabrielle throws the staff away. The violence in > Way was, in some senses more shocking than even in FIN. What do TPTB feel > about that now? ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:35:55 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 3rd season DVD reviews In a message dated 2/11/2004 4:06:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > They > >seemed awed by others' contributions. > > > >-- Ife > > I think, in many of these eps, it doesn't all 'make sense' until it's cut > together. Which is maybe why Lucy's often vague about details of episodes. > > Since the scenes weren't shot in order, and frequently (I think) scenes from > > different episodes would be shot 'next to' each other, I'd say that the > episode director would know what was going on but the actors would only have > > a vague idea. > > cr > Now I've checked out all of the interviews/commentaries. They convince me even more that what you suggest about production/location discussions should probably have to their own spot, with the people most knowledgeable coming together to talk about specific scenes/eps. The way it is now, you usually have one person talking about one aspect, then a solo shot of somebody else -- each coming from a different perspective and not necessarily talking about the same scene. Their focus is more on the overall "feel," rather than some of the details I think you'd like. Maybe in one of the future DVD sets, they could pick something from any season -- like Debt, Sin Trade or another one you think is particularly interesting in terms of location/production. The directors have pretty much said what they were looking for. Perhaps what you're suggesting would involve the cinematographer, film editor, whoever chose the location, and anybody else who contributed to the physical "look." Most of the ones I've heard seem to have quite good memories of what went into their contribution, even if they don't say much about that in their brief commentary appearances. You'll see what I mean, once you view the S3 DVDs. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:35:58 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xener season 3 In a message dated 2/11/2004 12:59:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > There are more people listed on the credits, like Rob Field, but I haven't > run across any commentary from them. Yet. >> I think he may only be on the bonus Sacrifice Retrospective piece. I've watched all the commentaries now, and I don't recall him on any others. > I wish Jacqueline Kym and Martin Csokas had been available to talk about > their characters. >> Tapert says they'd looked high and low for the perfect Lao Ma. They were very interested in Kym for a reading, but she didn't want to do that. I'm not sure about the terminology, but it sounds like they had to make her the offer before she'd come (as opposed to an audition). Anyway, Tapert says they were more than pleased with the results. > Anyway, everything I've seen so far has been excellent and very > interesting or at least fun. Of course, the source material is so good, > it'd be very hard to make a boring package out of this season. > My one caveat is that the commentaries seemed aimed at viewers who might not be privy to some of the info obsessive fans are. E.g., Lucy talks about how it's probably not her, if it's a shot from the back. There are other instances where I've read/heard them make almost the same comments in other sources. Also, the bloopers (with perhaps a minor addition) are from a previous fan kit. Tacking on to KT's comments, some interesting bits for me were: *Liz Friedman's often sardonic comments on the subtext or costumes, how various story lines developed. About the idea of having Ares as Xena's father in "Furies," she says, "I don't want to believe that the only way Xena can do this amazingly cool stuff is because of godly sperm." She and Rob have some great exchanges. During the "Furies," she asks Rob why Xena was naked during the early scene with the villagers. Rob says it was to underscore Xena's vulnerability. Liz later says the scene where Xena ties Gabs up fulfilled the fantasies of many viewers, then ruined those fantasies when Xena runs off. Rob says, "Huh! I never thought about that." *We learn that the part of Tara in "Forgiven" was initially conceived as a way to use Selma Blair, whom the staff had liked during her work for the Amazon High pilot. *We got the Mystic Diamond in "Fins" because the DeBoer (?) diamond company (an advertiser) asked Universal if there'd be a way to work one in. Also, it wasn't just the initial "Gabs obsessed with Xena" idea that got nixed. The problem was also that Gabs would be obessed with some of those X-rated positions *and* Xena. Bwahahahaha! There's a comment from Alex Tydings that she and many others would've loved to have seen the original idea play out. Heh. *I think it's during the "When in Rome" interviews that Sears says why Gabs could be the true hero of XWP. Xena chose light over dark, while "Gabrielle came from the light and chose to walk freely into the dark. That's a truly heroic thing to do, especially doing it for the right reasons. Her education is what the series has been about." He says that she was the vehicle for bringing the audience along on that journey. *For the Sacrifice interview, we have Lucy saying that Hudson gave "prismatic performances," where the information would be put in "like a beam of light" and come out in a spectrum of colors all at once. Nice. Hudson does the commentary, pretty much focused on her part. She's hilarious in her disdain for Cally being a rather pitiful god who could shoot fire from her fingers yet never quite figure out how to avoid rocks falling on her head. She jokes about their skimpy costumes, Cally's "bad" hair, and Cally's and Xena's "hooker boots." When Gabs is trying to convince Xena to use Cally's help, Hudson says, "Listen to your wife, Xena." Hudson said she had a hard time making Cally laugh at the end, after Gabs and Hope fall in the pit. She felt the character had gone about as far as she could being an ineffective god trying to do in the undefeatable hero. She didn't see Gabs' death as changing anything, in terms of Cally's need to die. It seems Sears and Tapert did believe Cally wanted to live. So Hudson added the the joyful expression when Xena kills Cally. Lucy says how wonderfully Hudson performed that -- adding emotion and movement that greatly enhanced the scene. Sears concluded that the ambiguity was perfect in terms of the audience wondering whether Xena surprised Cally or Cally tricked Xena. Finally, I'd hoped we see extra footage for a number of eps. I haven't watched any of the actual eps yet, but suspect "Sacrifice" is the only case of that. At least, that's the only place where I saw a specific section for outtakes. On one hand I was disappointed, as the "Sacrifice" bits didn't do much for me, even one where Xena and Cally have a sensitive chat. On the other, I didn't feel I'd missed much, in terms of the key aspects that did make it to the screen. I even felt that way about AFIN. What it did do was underscore my respect for the marvellous job of editing that went into telling these stories in the time they had. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:32:51 -0500 (EST) From: Sarah Anne Packard Subject: [chakram-refugees] My Burbank con report, again... Whew, I finally finished the last part of my con report for the Burbank Xena con (tonight I wrote up about Sunday), so you can read the whole thing now, here: http://abbagirl.zoiks.org/burbank.html :) -Sarah, aka the abbagirl- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:58:20 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] S3 Closed Captioning The episodes are closed captioned _ i tried it out. You have to use the closed captioning menu on your TV not the DVD player. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #39 *************************************