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chakram-refugees-digest   Thursday, January 8 2004   Volume 04 : Number 004



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Season 5                            [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Accents [was: Last Samurai--*Leetle SPOILER*]  [IfeRae@aol.co]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Accents [was: Last Samurai--*Leetle SPOILER*]  [Sekhmet209@aol.co]
  [chakram-refugees] Re: OT: Accents [was: Last Samurai--*Leetle SPOILER*]  [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Defending Fugate              [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Accents [was: Last Samurai--*Leetle SPOILER*]  ["S. Wilson" <sswilso@uark.edu]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:36:49 EST
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Season 5

In a message dated 1/6/2004 6:41:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
cande@sunlink.net writes:

> Boeotian  wrote:
> 
>  <<But Anthony wasn't honorable.  He was determined to destroy his political
>  opponents, at least some of whom didn't deserve it.  That's why Xena had to
>  kill him.  The fact that he was a sincere lover didn't mean that he was a
>  good guy.>>
> 
>  I think in his own way Antony was honorable.  He was upfront about his
> ambitions and what he was prepared to do to get what he wanted.  Yes he was
> ruthless enough to want to kill Octavian but he wasn't deceitful about it.
> Being honorable doesn't mean that someone is good or that the cause he fight
> for is good.  It does mean that he adheres to a set of principles in which 
> he
> acts without lying or decieving people.  Antony is honest in his dealings 
> with
> Cleopatra (ie Xena).  Everyone knows what he is willing to do and they
> understand his motives.  So yes I think Antony is honorable but it doesn't
> mean he would be a good ruler for Rome.
> 
>  CherylA
> 

I have to weigh in with Cheryl.  I believe he was also honorable in a couple 
of other ways.  Not only is he completely above board with his intentions; he 
keeps his word --   romantically, politically and militarily.  

Ironically (and poignantly) he enabled Xena to devise her ultimate plan 
precisely because she knew he would do what he said regarding Octavius and anyone 
else who got in his way.  If he'd lied, obfuscated or shown a smidgen of 
interest in partnering with Octavius, Xena might've been less decisive about what to 
do, or chosen to back him without being certain of the outcome.  He 
essentially made her decision easier on the practical front, even if his honesty made 
her more conflicted on a personal level.

The other thing is that Xena made the first overtures to him, opening the 
door for an alliance he hadn't counted on.  Unlike Caesar, who figured early on 
that he could use young Xena's interest in him, Antony initially kept the 
political and romantic interests separate, despite Xena's intention to entwine (so 
to speak) the two.  He was strategizing his moves without Cleo's help and 
appeared genuinely and pleasantly surprised when Xena offered it.  Yes, it made 
his conquest appear certain, but not because his plan was to use "Cleo" all 
along.  

Finally, like most of the other would-be rulers, he saw himself and/or his 
actions as synonymous with "what was good for Rome."  Unlike Brutus or Caesar, 
he didn't pretend alliances to deceive folks, or do sneaky assassinations.  
Octavius knew Antony wanted him out of the way.  I'm not saying that made Antony 
a "good guy."  However, I do think Xena responded to his basic honesty and saw 
him as a man of honor in a way that neither Brutus or Caesar was.  I think 
she saw him as a kindred spirit in many ways.  The sad part was the "one little 
thing" (as Gabs said about Najara) that made him someone she had to oppose.  
If she hadn't seen him honorable in his way, Xena wouldn't have felt so badly 
about what she had to do.

- -- Ife
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:36:51 EST
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Accents [was: Last Samurai--*Leetle SPOILER*]

In a message dated 1/6/2004 5:11:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
leedaley@optonline.net writes:

> Years ago the "standard" American accent (or lack of accent) was called 
> "Chicago East" since that regional dialect had no obvious regional 
> characteristics.  But then again how would I know? I'm from Joisey (aka New 
> Jersey), and I don't think we have any accent. :)
> 

Heh. If you were from Chicagah, you'd probably think they were referring to 
the transplants from Iowa, who don't have the brogue, nasality or more 
"southern" accents of many native Chicagoans.  I used to wonder what part of Chicago 
folks meant when they talked about "standard" American accent.

- -- Ife
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:22:08 EST
From: Sekhmet209@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Accents [was: Last Samurai--*Leetle SPOILER*]

In a message dated 1/7/04 12:46:17 AM, IfeRae@aol.com writes:

>Heh. If you were from Chicagah, you'd probably think they were referring
>to the transplants from Iowa, who don't have the brogue, nasality or more
>"southern" accents of many native Chicagoans.  I used to wonder what part
>of Chicago 
>folks meant when they talked about "standard" American accent.

It's the other Chicago accent, the "Great Lakes Twang" (yes, that's its 
official name <g>) of the north side and the North Shore suburbs, stretching 
northward to the outskirts of Milwaukee and eastward through southern Michigan & 
northern Indiana into northern Ohio, where it fades out just short of Cleveland. 
But that's probably too much info...

- --Sekhmet
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:20:25 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: OT: Accents [was: Last Samurai--*Leetle SPOILER*]

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:33, Jackie M. Young wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:44:55 +1300, cr <cr@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
> >As I understand it, 'mid-Atlantic' is a term used for a sort of
> >compromise accent - not strongly British, not strongly American - which
> >is reputed to be adopted by many actors (and requested by many producers)
> >as being sufficiently 'neutral' to pass unnoticed in most
> >English-speaking markets.
>
> --Thanks to TeXena for pushing Thel to this explanation; I always was
> wondering *what-the-h*ll* he meant by this, but always let it pass for
> more important thangs at the time.....;P
>
> And I *still* don't even know *what-the-h*ll* you mean by the above,
> Thel??  Exactly *what* accent is "not strongly British or not strongly
> American"??  Like, a fake stage-acting accent like Richard Chamberlain
> used to use (overly pronounced and slightly British)??  Or the mish-mash
> of accents used on LOTR (those didn't seem "neutral" at all to me)??

Love on the Rocks?   They were just using their normal Hercules accents, so 
far as I could tell.

Anyway, it's not a term that *I* made up.   I've seen it used on more than 
one occasion, though I can't say exactly where.

> And why would that be known as "mid-Atlantic"; to me, that's just "fake
> British". ;P LOL

No, what I'd call 'fake British' would be that veddy exaggerated fake Bwitish 
upper-class accent that occasionally gets used in Hollywood B-movies and 
makes all British people who hear it cringe.    It's insulting.   

> To me, an American, a "neutral" accent is one used by broadcasters,
> without a regional dialect, but more closely Californian than anything
> else.
>
> It's the one that LL tried to use on XWP, and was usually successful at,
> though not 100% of the time.
>
> I certainly don't understand the "most widely requested" part, because it
> would depend on what country's production you were working on at the time.
> If it were American, it would be an American accent.  If it were British,
> it would be a British accent.  Huh??

I didn't say 'most widely requested' I said 'requested by many producers' - 
which I believe to be a fact.   

For example, see this:

http://actionadventure.about.com/library/weekly/2002/aa012602.htm

Exclusive Kevin Reynolds Interview	
	
Director of The Count of Monte Cristo

(snips)

Q: Did you have any problems getting your actors to do French accents? 

A:  I don't think anybody's in a French accent. If anything it's a sort of 
British or mid-Atlantic accent because most of the cast was either English or 
American. So, rather than have everyone affect a fake French accent, we went 
with a mid-Atlantic or European accent. Any time you've got a group of people 
that are working together that are from different countries, the accent thing 
always becomes an issue. You're story's supposed to be taking place in one 
locale, what you try to do is to neutralize things as much as possible so 
they do all feel like they're of the same group or same society.

(rest snipped)

Or just search in Google for 'mid-Atlantic accent' and see how many pages of 
refs you get!

cr
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:10:00 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Defending Fugate

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 00:28, KTL wrote:

> When Fugate is asked publicly (as she always is), what she thinks of FIN,
> she always defends Rob's right to end his show the way he wanted to. She
> tells her fans that if they want to end a show their way, then they need
> to create their own show. She talks about letting people live their own
> dreams and the right of the artist to control their own vision. In fact,
> the only time I've ever noticed a trace of impatience in her towards fans
> is when she's defending Rob from the furious Anti-FIN contingent.

That's entirely consistent with what she said in her interview in Whoosh 58:

<<
FUGATE:
[89] As far as these questions, in general I think Xena should be applauded 
for all the risks it has taken, jumping genres, trying new things. I'm a big 
fan of The X-Files but when they tried a cops reality style episode there was 
a lot of flack. It's not easy to showcase a show with varying styles, and it 
takes skill to pull it off. And face it, not every day of our real lives is 
strictly a comedy or a drama or a musical. We live varied lives, why 
shouldn't the folks on Xena? If anything, it's more true to the imagined real 
lives of the people the show portrays. And I, for one, love the musicals. The 
thing that does confound me is the "I Would Do It This Way" hoopla. Then go 
do it your way. That's the beauty of it. This is Rob and RJ's show. It's 
their dream - not yours. They should do it the way they want to do it. You 
should do your dream the way you want to do your dream. Something's gotten 
messed up in society in which we critique and bad-mouth everyone else's 
dream, telling them how to "change" it to fit what we want.  
>>


That interview was before FIN aired (IIRC, in the context of the Season 5 
controversy).   I had wondered if she'd changed her mind at all post-FIN, but 
I'm pleased to see she hasn't.   

I did notice several trolls (I think that's the correct term) on her Q&A 
pages after FIN, virtually inviting her to join in slagging it, and I noticed 
that in her replies she carefully avoided doing so.   

cr
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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:48:04 -0600
From: "S. Wilson" <sswilso@uark.edu>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Accents [was: Last Samurai--*Leetle SPOILER*]

And, not to drag this too far OT, or to knock Nicole Kidman's performance 
in "Cold Mountain" (which is a great movie), but I've always wondered why 
the American Southern accent is so hard to do. Her accent in the film is a 
concoction of deep Georgia by way of Vivien Leigh. Jude Law's, OTOH, is a 
weird Hollywood Southern that's not an actual dialect (so far as I could 
tell). Renee's, OTOH, pure hillbilly. But, like our other Renee, she's also 
from the South (two of my favorite Renees from Katy, TX - what are the 
odds!) so no real effort for her there. I'm from the American South, 
specifically the Delta where we all talk like Elvis. ;) But I've lived in 
so many places in my life that my accent is totally gone - in fact, I came 
home for Xmas to my parents house and heard myself on their answering 
machine and was stunned - "I sound like a Yankee!" *g*

I always thought, though, that the flat, square Americanese that foreign 
actors affect in movies and tv sounded more to the west of Midwest - like 
Denver, Santa Fe. That's affectionately called "crispy" where I'm from. ;)

S.teph


At 01:22 AM 1/7/2004 -0500, Sekhmet209@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 1/7/04 12:46:17 AM, IfeRae@aol.com writes:
>
> >Heh. If you were from Chicagah, you'd probably think they were referring
> >to the transplants from Iowa, who don't have the brogue, nasality or more
> >"southern" accents of many native Chicagoans.  I used to wonder what part
> >of Chicago
> >folks meant when they talked about "standard" American accent.
>
>It's the other Chicago accent, the "Great Lakes Twang" (yes, that's its
>official name <g>) of the north side and the North Shore suburbs, stretching
>northward to the outskirts of Milwaukee and eastward through southern 
>Michigan &
>northern Indiana into northern Ohio, where it fades out just short of 
>Cleveland.
>But that's probably too much info...
>
>--Sekhmet
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End of chakram-refugees-digest V4 #4
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