From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #378 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, December 18 2003 Volume 03 : Number 378 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] EVEN MORE CURSES! FATES AGAIN! [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] EVEN MORE CURSES! FATES AGAIN! [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] OAAA [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] "Good" Reasons for Xena to Die [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN and dying a hero's death on a dumb television show [IfeRae@a] [chakram-refugees] Re: Peekabo - red ["H.J.J. Hewitt" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:52:32 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] EVEN MORE CURSES! FATES AGAIN! In a message dated 12/16/2003 12:38:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Huh. By willingly bashing Fugate, you've unwittingly > >make me think maybe Fugate knew what she was doing even more than I'd begun > >to believe. Thanks! > > > >-- Ife > > > > > >Ife, I don't mind the Neener neeners. (I always find them amusing. AND > >satisfying in what they imply. Grin.) > > > >But I will NOT accept your claim that I am bashing Fugate. I am commenting > >on her work and analyzing why it doesn't work for me. I never confuse > >disliking someone's work with disliking that person. Just as I never > >confuse disagreeing with someone's views of an ep with disliking that > >person. Both are totally bogus in my book. > > I'll leap to KT's defence on this one (even if I look a bit like Joxer > purporting to defend Xena ;) I haven't seen KT make any personal remarks > > about KF in her criticisms of the ep. >> My apologies. "Bashing" was a poor choice, even in fun. I did indeed mean "criticism," not personal attacks. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:52:41 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] EVEN MORE CURSES! FATES AGAIN! In a message dated 12/15/2003 3:44:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > IFE: > However, it's fitting that, > as you say, Xena was saved like she was before, even thought her "I love > you, > Gabrielle" suggests to me that she believed she was a goner. > > > > > LOL! Once again, Ife, this is exactly what I'm saying. Xena was dying just > to die. >> Ah, I share your view that Xena didn't expect to escape death, but mot that that this means she "was dying just to die." > M'Lila answers and Nichlio translates: > > "She wants to know if you feel anger towards Caesar." > > Xena hesitates, thinking it over, but never gets to answer because at that > moment the soldiers come in and ultimately kill M'Lila as she tries to > protect Xena. >> Yes, I always thought it significant that Xena hesitated in answering M'Lila. I felt Caesar had brought her to the brink of rage and that M'Lila's death at his soldiers' hands pushed Xena over the edge. > And THAT'S what made her evil Xena. Her rage over the senseless death of > M'Lila, killed for no other reason than that she was trying to save Xena. > Not the crucifixion as Fugate says in Fates. >> Again, I saw the crucifixion as symbolic of what sent her on her evil course, not the *only* cause. > Huh. By willingly bashing Fugate, you've unwittingly > make me think maybe Fugate knew what she was doing even more than I'd begun > to > believe. Thanks! > > -- Ife > > > Ife, I don't mind the Neener neeners. (I always find them amusing. AND > satisfying in what they imply. Grin.) > > But I will NOT accept your claim that I am bashing Fugate. I am commenting > on her work and analyzing why it doesn't work for me.>> Yes, I apologized about that in another post. I certainly didn't meen to imply personal attacks on Fugate. > Who also loves (despite your disclaimer above) how more negative your > posts on Fates got as our discussion progressed, my favorite being your > comment that "Fates was not the ep either of us necessarily wanted." GRIN > I didn't mean it as a negative. My point was that I always had mixed emotions about Fates. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it either. The discussions led me to view it with a lot more respect, in terms of what Fugate was trying to accomplish. FIN wasn't the ep I necessarily wanted either, but that didn't keep me from appreciating what I did get or acknowledging the flaws I continue to see. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:52:42 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OAAA In a message dated 12/15/2003 3:44:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > >fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > > >>And for her line, "Go home. There are thousands > >>more like me." That just cracks me up. Modest little thing, ain't she? > >>grin > >> > > > >Do I dare mention that this is one of the few lines Lucy has said she > >couldn't believe Xena was uttering? Oh, I guess I did. > > > >-- Ife > > > > Yes--it's a hysterical line. I remember her saying that and laughing when > I saw her talking about it. > > BUT I don't believe that she says she can't believe Xena says it. She > says she can't believe SHE was able to say it. That's a big difference. > I see we interpreted that differently. It seemed she couldn't believe even Xena would say that. I don't understand why she'd wonder why she hadn't questioned it, unless it had to do with her character. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:52:37 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] "Good" Reasons for Xena to Die In a message dated 12/15/2003 4:56:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > IFE I felt a little like KT does about the Xena> > >in Fates. Why did Xena accept the thing about staying dead at face value? > >Why not let Gabs bring her back, so she'd be in a position to look into > other > >courses of action, like she usually did? How did she know she couldn't > fall on > >her sword later, if that indeed turned out to be the only way to avenge the > >souls? > > > > Because the way it was written, she had to make her decision by sundown. > That was the overriding concern. She ran out of time this time. Xena's > twitchy sense was usually pretty good and the fact that she accepted this > indicates that it was probably true. It was therefore a sacrifice for the > greater good, a common theme in the series from the very first ep on. >> Again, this is just as "circular" to me as the argument that Xena also had a habit of putting Gabs before the greater good, and therefore Xena never would've given up on at least asking Harukata or Kenji or somebody to check into other options. Xena's "twitchy sense" didn't work so hot in Ides, Crusader or Deliverer. In the past, she always managed to use what time she had to come up with something that would work. I accepted a lot of things I hadn't seen before, because it was the finale and because I thought it would show in some dramatic way how much she had changed from Evil Xena. As I said previously, I thought she was prepared to risk her life at any time, whether it was for a moron like Whatshisname in Tsunami or 40,000 people who were already dead. If Xena did it, then it was a good reason. If it was good enough for her, it was good enough for me and good enough for the finale. Circular. > IFe: > >I don't mean to argumentative for it's own sake. I'm sensitive to what > >appear to be double standards. I don't mind people believing what they > want and > >sharing what's going on in their heads. I have to push back when it sounds > like > >one position is being presented as more valid because the proponents > arrived > >at their position through more "objective" logic -- whether that's based on > >what they saw or on somehow knowing what was going on in Xenastaff's heads. > All > >of it involves integrating some elements and discarding others, in terms of > >what's "ridiculous" or "reasonable," certainly when it relates to the > fantasy > >world we're discussing. > > > > Are you talking to me? Are YOU talking to me? Grin. >> Uh huh. > > Double standards certainly come into play very often when some people talk > about FIN. Some people act as if FIN had come totally out of the blue and > was unlike anything else that had ever come before. But that is an > unsupportable claim. It's not true at all. >> I absolutely agree. To me, the "we'll be together always" theme evolved initially from happenstance, not from Tappy's original idea. I always saw Xena's quest as the primary focus, despite the strong attention paid to Gabrielle's journey and to X&G's commitment to each other. As you say in a part I snipped, both women were always willing to die for the greater good, despite leaving the other behind. However, by always showing them as reunited or together in some other life, I do think TPBT created an expectation that they'd go on together, that "even in death" would mean seeing them go out at the same time on the same plane. It suggested that "love" was Xena's greatest lesson -- represented in her commitment to Gabs. I thought Tappy was willing to incorporate that idea (both because it strengthened the show and as a nod to many fans), but not as the *sole* representation above and beyond or to exclusion of sacrificing themselves for each other or the greater good. Others saw the relationship as the focal point of love and honor, so (rightly or wrongly) had much "evidence" from the show to suggest and ending where both love and honor could triumph with X&G going on together alive or as ghosts. We could argue for days about which "evidence" was more prevalent. For me it all comes down to Tapert's "vision," which I believe FIN fulfilled in a way that he hoped also honored Gabrielle and their life together. Some of us feel he achieved that. Others don't. > But I never heard anyone say that any of these other deaths in XWP were > seen as negating the life Xena and Gabrielle had spent together nor > destroyed the value of their relationship.>> Of course not, because within an ep or two they were always back together. This tended to support the notion that they'd be together in the flesh, whether in that lifetime or another -- and not with one of them being a ghost half the time. > Aside from claiming that Xena dying was something they never expected, > people also tried to claim that FIN was more violent and misogynist than > any other ep. >> My apologies, but that's not a whole 'nother issue to me that doesn't float my boat. > Xena was a warrior who was on a quest to make atonement for her evil past. > If you ignore the massive number of scenes, eps and arcs that all present > that story because the story you want to see doesn't fit in with large > parts of the story they gave us, then yeah, by doing that, FIN could come > as a complete and total surprise to you. >> True. I believe we agreed that we can be selective in terms of what "fits" the story we want to see or believe we are seeing, and what doesn't -- whether we chalk it up to bad writing, a mistake, giving in to fans, wrongheadeness, technical/personnel issues, losing direction or whatever. > And even if we never get the movie that "fixes" FIN as all the other "One > of them's dead" eps got fixed, Tapert and Stewart have already shown us > that the love between these two souls never dies. In Between the Lines, Dj > vu, and Soul Possession, we see that they continue down the centuries, > their souls finding each other and making room for each other in their > lives endlessly. No matter what bodies they find themselves in. >. Agreed. Again, before FIN we had the luxury of seeing physical embodiments of that idea. They were still there ("alive") on screen, even when they were dead. In the aired version (the "true" one for me), one of them disappears at the end, and each of us is left to imagine the form that might take. In the director's cut version, we see them together, which satisfied some but certainly not all of those who thought X&G should continue on together. The first one tugs my heart more because it seems more "final" to me. It's not the ending I wanted to see, but it is the one I thought was more "fitting" for the story I thought Tapert wanted to tell. > And besides, in the Xenaverse dead is never forever. You KNOW Gabrielle's > gotta be scrambling to figure out some way to get Xena back. >> Yes, many of us would like to *imagine* that. > > Xena and Gabrielle deeply loved each other. That is also undeniable and > also totally supported in dozens of scenes. And it's supported in FIN when > we see that Gabrielle loved Xena enough to want her to have the peace > she'd been seeking since she met her, even though it would break > Gabrielle's heart to do so. In other words, she stood by the decision she > had made in OAAA and accepted that Xena needed to sacrifice herself for > the greater good, just like Gabrielle had wanted to do then. > > You will of course try to claim that this is just my opinion. I defy > ANYONE to say that Xena not carrying Gabrielle off to Athens on Argo in > OAAA to get the antidote doesn't prove that working for the Greater Good > is the most important thing in both their lives. It is literally what they > live (and die) for. >> Um, yes, I think you're offering an opinion, which I happen to agree with wholeheartedly. > > And that was right up there on our screens for everyone to see, week after > week after week. >> Yep, right along with whatever else some folks saw on screen week after week after week. I happened to see what you did, so I have no problem with it. However, if you're suggesting what we saw is "immutable fact" (which maybe you're not), I suggest we agree to disagree. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:52:39 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN and dying a hero's death on a dumb television show In a message dated 12/15/2003 4:56:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > IFE: > >Um, KT used a real-life response to a fictional death, as a source of > >inspiration for a real-life death. I don't understand how that's different > from > >talking about those who responded to the same fictional character's death > as > >depressing in terms of their real life. > > > > No that's backwards-the woman used her partner's death as a source of > inspiration for not feeling that Xena's death destroyed all the meaning of > her past life with Gabrielle. >> Oops, sorry. I read it the other way around. > CR: > > > >>To turn it on its head - would any of the FIN-destroyed-my-life brigade > >>happily choose to sacrifice their nearest and dearest *if* it meant that > >>Xena > >>could stay alive at the end of FIN? An equally unfair comparison, no > >>doubt. >> > > > > > IFE: > >Yes, because that's not the choice the ep presented us with. However, I do > >think it would be fair to ask them if they would sacrifice the well-being > of > >thousands of strangers (regardless of the reason), if it meant the > salvation of > >their nearest and dearest, as that was one of the options the ep presented. > > > > > > Well we see this everyday. This is EXACTLY the sacrifice we ask the > families of our armed forces and our police officers and fire fighters to > face when we send their sons, daughters, spouses, parents, aunts, uncles, > cousins, friends off to work. >> I absolutely agree. I thought it a fairer question in terms of both the ep and real life. That's why I don't get hung up on Xena's reasons for dying or think what she did makes her less loving or less of a hero. An example I've used is the fire fighter who runs into a building and dies saving someone she knows is a child molester or murderer. It's her job, just as it was Xena's. Even her own family may question whether that person was "worth" saving or if it was a "good reason" for the fire fighter to die, but to others (and possibly the family of the person she saved), she is a hero. What matters to the firefighter is that she did what *she* thought was right and died honorably, which does not mean she loved her family less than a fire fighter who didn't run into the building. > IFE: > >>Thing is, how I or that woman KT mentioned feels has nothing to do > >>with the validity of how someone else feels. > >> > > > > > No, but we don't have to accept their screeching that everybody else has > to see it the way they do. Which is what I saw people posting online > endlessly. >> Then we're agreed on that too. Further apologies for snipping responses to other people's views, which I don't share anyway. ;-) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:38:09 -0600 From: "H.J.J. Hewitt" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Peekabo - red Some notes in re KT's ruddy comments-- > How about >temperamental redhead? In an unfinished analysis of female protagonists in science fiction books from 1950-1980, I found that a quite disproportionate number had red hair... My hypothesis: in those days the degree of independence displayed by a woman as protagonist had to be 'explained'... so the common belief in the non-submissiveness of redheads was used to make it more understandable (acceptable?). >(And why did the phrase, "redhead" come into use >instead of just red like blond or brunette?) Well, blond and brunette primarily refer to hair, while red definitely does not. >And I'm thinking, Xena wore red to seduce Caesar in Destiny. Then she wore >red at his party in When In Rome. And of course she is dressed in a red >robe by the ghosts in FIN. Don't forget the ribbons Xena removed from Diana's disguise. TEXena ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:58:30 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] EVEN MORE CURSES! FATES AGAIN! On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:52, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > > I'll leap to KT's defence on this one (even if I look a bit like Joxer > > purporting to defend Xena ;) I haven't seen KT make any personal > > remarks > > > > about KF in her criticisms of the ep. >> > > My apologies. "Bashing" was a poor choice, even in fun. I did indeed mean > "criticism," not personal attacks. > > -- Ife I suspect my crack about 'Saint Katherine of the Subtext' was probably more questionable (though I hasten to add it was more an observation on KF's rep among the fans than directed at anything KF has said :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:33:53 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Peekabo On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:25, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > People did not usually describe Xena as a "peasant" as they did Gabs. It > wasn't that Cyrene's tavern was different from other taverns, but that she > had one at all. It was a meeting place where things got discussed and > Cyrene (and possibly her daughter) had a somewhat unique position and > influence. It said something to me about Cyrene's strength, independence, > savvy. The inn/tavern gave me a different impression of Xena's background, > than the more farm country I pictured Gabs coming from. Well, so far as status goes, did TPTB ever explain where the Xena Warrior *Princess* bit came from? Was it just a courtesy title? > I think of all the times we didn't "see" something after several viewings, > until someone else pointed it out to us. In some cases, it changed > someone's idea of what they saw -- of what was "actually" happening. Even > then, some people would say it didn't matter to the "main" story, while it > might've mattered to someone else. One scene that stands out for me is in > Deliverer, when Xena and Boudica are arguing about Gabs. I hadn't noticed > the bit where Xena tosses Gabs' staff back to Boudica, until somebody said > that's why Gabs didn't have the staff in the temple. They thought it > significant (and somewhat thoughtless) that Xena didn't bring the staff > with her, so she could give it to Gabs after the rescue. Not sure I > entirely agree with that, but TPTB might've been trying to at least > establish that Gabs didn't have the staff when it came time to fight > Dahak's folks, which could somewhat explain her resorting to a knife. > Again, I saw some heated discussions around Xena's culpability because of > the staff thing. Really rather absurd and pointless argument - since Gabs would probably not have been holding her staff at the moment when she had to use the knife anyway, a staff being so unweildy. She would probably have parked it against the wall. If she'd had it, which of course she didn't. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #378 **************************************