From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #374 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, December 15 2003 Volume 03 : Number 374 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Did Ares Kill? [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] OAAA [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] EVEN MORE CURSES! FATES AGAIN! [KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Did Ares Kill? On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:45, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > And I consider leading armies into battle makes you responsible for any > > deaths at the hands of your army, even if you kill none yourself (which > > is HIGHLY unlikely). And we know of at least TWO times he's LEAD armies > > into battle from "Ties That Bind" and "Ten Little Warlords." >> > > True, however my question was more around whether Ares did his own dirty > work in routine cases, not when Olympus was threatened. > > > And let's not forget him killing Smythe and his men in "The Xena > > Scrolls." And those are just off the top of my head. But Ares most > > CERTAINLY has killed.>> > > Yup, forgot that instance too. Thanks to everybody who responded. > > -- Ife Interesting question. I thought it was going to be an Ares-bashing session and I was all ready to leap to his defence with "He's the War God, he's *supposed* to kill people" - but it didn't. :) However, coming back to the original question - my guess is, that while Ares probably left it to his henchmen to do the routine killing, he would have been quite prepared to kill anybody when the occasion arose. And I expect, over the years, he's probably killed quite a lot of people himself. After all, Xena has, Callisto has, Alti has, Borias has, Gabby has, Michael has, even Joxer has... it'd be quite ironical if Ares the War God was the only major character who *hasn't* killed somebody. As, of course, the examples people quoted have demonstrated. By the way, Ares also killed Mavican (by leaving her trapped in the cave). AND he killed the Sovereign. Probably a few more in Herc if I could recall them.... Question - did Hercules ever kill anybody? Umm yes, the Irish god Kernunnos for one. Oh yeah, and assorted Proxidicae (if they count). And ZEUS!!! How could I have forgotten that? OK - question - did Aphrodite ever kill anyone? She certainly started a couple of wars in The Apple and other early eps... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:35:02 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OAAA > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > > And for her line, "Go home. There are thousands > > more like me." That just cracks me up. Modest little thing, ain't she? > > grin > > > > Do I dare mention that this is one of the few lines Lucy has said she > couldn't believe Xena was uttering? Oh, I guess I did. > > -- Ife Yes--it's a hysterical line. I remember her saying that and laughing when I saw her talking about it. BUT I don't believe that she says she can't believe Xena says it. She says she can't believe SHE was able to say it. That's a big difference. It's a totally bogus line. But it's also totally Xena. Xena scams all the time. It's perfectly in character for her to say something like this to torque her enemies. And the fact that it's hilarious is just the icing on the cake. AND Lucy being able to say dumb lines like this while giving them full dignity and serious consideration was just one of the reasons she was just so damn good as Xena. The all time "Gods, how can she say these things with a straight face?" line in our house is in A Day In The Life. Hower is praising Xena for her strategic sense. Hower: "Brilliant! That was your plan all along. To bring Zagrayas into Gareth's path. Do all your plans work this well?" Xena: "Let's hope so. 'Cause when he's done with Zagrayas-- he's coming for us." And as she says, "He's coming for us" she's looking off to the side in a close-up, with a real serious and fearless look on her face. And hokey as that line is, she never even breaks a smile. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:42:01 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] EVEN MORE CURSES! FATES AGAIN! fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > I would argue that Xena has never accepted her dark side as being > absolutely part of herself and instrumental in who she is before Fates. > That's first strongly suggested in Dreamworker and appears in numerous > other eps. Chakram is one of the BIG ones on that theme. >> Ife Replied: KT, I don't understand what you're saying here. I always thought the point of Dreamworker was to show early on that Xena was forced to acknowledge that she wouldn't be who she was without her dark side. She literally embraced it as the "key" to escaping the horrors of her own dreamscape. How did you interpret that or Chakram? Whoops! What did I do up there? Oh, I was commenting on Fugate saying that Xena had never faced the good in her bad side before. And I would argue with that, using those examples I posted as times when Xena had accepted that her dark side was part of her and would never go away and was valuable in some ways. This concept was certainly not new in Fates. I was just sloppy in the way I wrote my thoughts. > Next line [from Fugate quote]: > "thus, despite all the hatred and guilt xena associates with the cross, it > happened precisely as it was meant to be. and now, by accepting her > destiny in both lifetimes by willingly getting back up on that cross > again, she not only forgives herself, she unwittingly gets her original > life back by doing so." KT: > "Willingly and unwittingly" seem at odds to me. It certainly negates > that Xena went on the cross in order to rescue the situation. She went > on the cross to die. }} IFE: Not sure what Fugate meant by "forgives herself," but I think "unwittingly" means Fugate's Xena did indeed think she was about to die, period. Yes. That's what I said. KT: > All we have in the script to indicate what Fugate is trying to say is Xena > saying "Everything happens as it should." But, if this is true, then Xena > should figure she's gonna be rescued from that cross, as she was in the > real world. >> IFE: Now, that's interesting, though, again, though I'm not convinced Fugate was thinking of or necessarily meant to suggest that. She's said that the "Everything happens as it should" refers to the crucifixion at cons and she says that on the page on her site that I posted the link to. She doesn't say anywhere that Xena expects to be rescued from the cross. In fact, in the link, she says she didn't expect Gabrielle to save her. IFE: However, it's fitting that, as you say, Xena was saved like she was before, even thought her "I love you, Gabrielle" suggests to me that she believed she was a goner. LOL! Once again, Ife, this is exactly what I'm saying. Xena was dying just to die. What I'm also saying is that Fugate appears to have MISSED the point that Xena did NOT die on the cross in Destiny. I'm saying that was a mistake on her part. By ignoring that, the whole shaky premise of Fates gets even less stable than before. (And note--*I* don't make too much of Caesar as the catalyst of Xena's life. Fugate proposed that in the story she pitched to Rob. I don't agree with that premise.) > > Next line from Fugate: > "and that comes from gabrielle, who acts > independently of xena by going to the Temple of the Fates. KT: >> Of course, there is a parallel in Gabrielle saving her as M'Lila did in > Destiny. >> IFE: Wow, I hadn't made that connection either. Again, don't know if Fugate was conscious of that. But she should have been, since Destiny is the source material for this ep. I would expect that she had watched that ep again. I'm not sure why she missed the crucial point that it was M'lila's death that led Xena to her almost insane evil state, not her crucifixion by Caesar. Someone wrote on the lists about this once. How Tapert, Stewart and Sears totally emphasized exactly when Xena lost her soul. From Destiny: Xena: "M'Lila? Up on that cross-I wasn't sure that I wanted to live. You-you had no reason to save me, but you did. Thank you. I know you can't understand." M'Lila answers and Nichlio translates: "She wants to know if you feel anger towards Caesar." Xena hesitates, thinking it over, but never gets to answer because at that moment the soldiers come in and ultimately kill M'Lila as she tries to protect Xena. At which point, Xena fights and overcomes them all. And then says as she holds a soldier captive with her legs, "You'll be dead in thirty seconds. But know this, you won't be the last. Tell Hades to prepare himself. A new Xena is born tonight. With a new purpose in life. Death." (CRUNCH as she twists the guy's head and breaks his neck.) And THAT'S what made her evil Xena. Her rage over the senseless death of M'Lila, killed for no other reason than that she was trying to save Xena. Not the crucifixion as Fugate says in Fates. IFE: However, in both cases Xena wasn't exactly able to save herself, so that necessitates someone else doing it independently. More "precisely" as it should be. EXCEPT that the person who saved Xena last time was murdered by Caesar's men for doing so. So do you still think that Xena would just give up and let Caesar nail her to the cross again when the ultimate outcome is the sacrificial death of someone she cares about very much? I don't. Huh. By willingly bashing Fugate, you've unwittingly make me think maybe Fugate knew what she was doing even more than I'd begun to believe. Thanks! - -- Ife Ife, I don't mind the Neener neeners. (I always find them amusing. AND satisfying in what they imply. Grin.) But I will NOT accept your claim that I am bashing Fugate. I am commenting on her work and analyzing why it doesn't work for me. I never confuse disliking someone's work with disliking that person. Just as I never confuse disagreeing with someone's views of an ep with disliking that person. Both are totally bogus in my book. Also, I have no idea if Fates is typical of Fugate's work, having never seen anything else written by her. For all I know, she may have done other stuff that is excellent. And I am open to that possibility. It's just like Helicon. Helicon sucked BIG time to me. (Though it's much better than Fates in that Xena is Xena, even if she's shown as being a real bonehead in regards to strategy ONLY in this one ep. But at least she doesn't lie down and die for no reason as Fugate had her do.) But I absolutely love Many Happy Returns, which was written by the same duo as Helicon. And certainly I came to that work without prejudice. Now had Many Happy Returns ALSO sucked, then I would be very leery to wish for another ep from Friedman and Place. Hell, if critiquing an ep means that we are bashing the writer, than we are all extremely guilty of that on this list every single day. KT Who also loves (despite your disclaimer above) how more negative your posts on Fates got as our discussion progressed, my favorite being your comment that "Fates was not the ep either of us necessarily wanted." GRIN ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 03:54:28 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] FIN and dying a hero's death on a dumb television show > > >Ife responded: > > >>>I'm sure it was. I just wonder how eagerly she would've chosen that > > >>>image, over the chance to have her partner with her in the flesh, > > >>>healthy and alive. (Yes, I'm doing the defending thing again.) > > >> CR: > > >>Oh dear, lfe. That's an unfair comparison and a loaded question. > > >>Obviously the woman would rather have had her partner back. But her > > >>partner > > >>was dead. That wasn't a choice, it was a circumstance. Given that > > >>circumstance, she found FIN to be a consolation. KT was using it as a > > >>counter-example to the 'FIN destroyed my life' posts. >> > > > IFE: > > >Yes, I know. But if we're going to use real-life examples, I don't think > > >it's fair to confine ourselves only to the aspects that support our view. > > Well, I sure didn't seen anyone online who had a real-life example where her/his partner had to choose between dying for a noble purpose or turning their back and running for their lives. So this was the only real life example that I ran across. IFE: >>Much of the criticism about AFIN had to do with Xena's *choice* to stay >>dead, not that she was already dead. Of course we try to find what >>inspiration we can when we lose someone. But how many of us would gladly >>accept our partner's decision to die for what appeared to be an unjust >>reason How is Xena atoning for a wrong she did in her past an "unjust reason" when it's been the modus operandi of Xena for six years now? >>and when she/he had the chance to resume a healthy life? Xena' soul would have been irredeemably damaged by sacrificing those 40,000 souls so that she could stay alive. Hardly a chance to live a "healthy life". CR: > > If we're arguing a point, it's entirely legitimate, IMO. While > recognising that the opposition will produce the opposite example. > > > But your comparison was between a real-life death and a fictional > >one, presenting them as alternatives. That (IMO) is a quite unfair > comparison. > >> > > IFE: > Um, KT used a real-life response to a fictional death, as a source of > inspiration for a real-life death. I don't understand how that's different from > talking about those who responded to the same fictional character's death as > depressing in terms of their real life. No that's backwards-the woman used her partner's death as a source of inspiration for not feeling that Xena's death destroyed all the meaning of her past life with Gabrielle. Which is what the more rabid anti-FIN haters were trying to make everybody admit. I saw incredible attacks on people's characters from FIN haters. I saw people being accused of being disgusting misogynists who enjoyed watching women being brutalized and humiliated. Posts that said that anybody who liked FIN was a vicious lover of gratuitous violence. I was personally accused of being a "Hidden homophobe" after I wrote a post praising FIN. And this came from a person who had written me for years, often thanking me for being such an eloquent and courageous straight ally on the lists, standing up for my gay buddies when a poster would attack them rather than the opinions they had written. But for her, my liking FIN made me a truly evil and malicious person and way outweighed any real life "grace" she had awarded me for defending people against bigotry and prejudice in the past. CR: > > > To turn it on its head - would any of the FIN-destroyed-my-life brigade > > happily choose to sacrifice their nearest and dearest *if* it meant that > > Xena > > could stay alive at the end of FIN? An equally unfair comparison, no > > doubt. >> > IFE: > Yes, because that's not the choice the ep presented us with. However, I do > think it would be fair to ask them if they would sacrifice the well-being of > thousands of strangers (regardless of the reason), if it meant the salvation of > their nearest and dearest, as that was one of the options the ep presented. > Well we see this everyday. This is EXACTLY the sacrifice we ask the families of our armed forces and our police officers and fire fighters to face when we send their sons, daughters, spouses, parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends off to work. And those people we are sending off to possibly die for the greater good have no history of personally being responsible for great and grievous harm to those people they are sent out to sacrifice themselves for. And yet people choose those jobs and go out and do them. And sure, when they die, their loved ones grieve. But they also know that it could have happened any day they went off to do their job. I don't think any survivor says, "I never thought s/he would die on duty." They PRAY they don't. But they don't act as if it's totally incomprehensible if they die on their dangerous job. Which brings us to the most cogent point of the whole argument. Xena was a warrior. She had the most dangerous job in the world. Gabrielle knew that. As she said in OAAA, "I know that I'm going to die. I accept that. Why can't you? A long time ago, I accepted the consequences of our life together, that it might one day come to this. It has." Yet oddly enough, many of the people who worship OAAA absolutely loathe FIN. Go figure I don't personally know that woman who wrote about the death of her partner not invalidating their life together. But I bet anything neither of them carried weapons for work and set out each day to right the world's wrongs through force. (I COULD be wrong. But I believe that if her partner were a soldier or a cop, she would have said so, since this would be very relevant to the situation.) And that of course is something else that is totally ignored by those who claim that the ending of FIN came totally out of the blue. Xena was always ready to die as a warrior. And she and Gabrielle were lauded throughout the series for just this choice. And then FIN called that bluff, surprising all of us. But only some of us took it as a personal attack on ourselves and viciously attacked many others in return. IFE: > > Thing is, how I or that woman KT mentioned feels has nothing to do > >with the validity of how someone else feels. > > No, but we don't have to accept their screeching that everybody else has to see it the way they do. Which is what I saw people posting online endlessly. On a different list than that one I talked about above, I was attacked for merely agreeing with another poster that FIN was an extraordinary ep. My response of course was to forward my own FIN review which absolutely ENRAGED a couple of people. The most incredible thing was one post that in return attacked me for the usual reasons as outlined above, and then ended with, "We do not honor the 9-ll terrorists and we do not honor Tapert." I wrote back simply pointing out the big difference for me was that in the 9-11 attack real people had died while in FIN a fictional character died. And I ended with "I do honor Tapert, as do most of the fans I know". And then her buddy jumped on me. (Or, it was the same person posting under a different handle as some online people did.) LOL! They were just not willing to let anyone appreciate FIN without accusing them of being evil people. And I refuse to let that go unchallenged. IFE: I agree > that many fans saw that as making the relationship secondary. I didn't see it > that way. I saw X&G as loving each other body *and* soul. Even without the > "eternal soulmates" thing, I believed neither would want the other to live by > betraying what she believed in. The more selfish response would be to want the > other with her in the flesh, no matter what the other wanted or needed, and > regardless of the consequences to the larger society. They chose to honor what > their life together stood for, what gave it meaning and mutual respect. That > became the "heart" of their partnership and would endure long after their > bodies were gone. I think that's what the woman KT quoted also saw. > Yup. She understood exactly what Tapert and Stewart were saying. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 03:55:54 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] "Good" Reasons for Xena to Die IFE > > >However, I did see quite a few posts where the reason > > >did fuel the anger, as its "senselessness" served to belittle the > > >relationship. > > CR: > > I think it was a circular argument - its proponents had already decided that > > no reason would be sufficient, therefore the reason was inadequate. >> Very good point. (As are many you've made on this thread.) IFE: > > My argument wasn't much different. Initially, I wondered why the scenario > didn't involve a past "debt" we had "history" with (e.g., Callisto, the town her > army torched in Gauntlet). Then I felt a little like KT does about the Xena > in Fates. Why did Xena accept the thing about staying dead at face value? > Why not let Gabs bring her back, so she'd be in a position to look into other > courses of action, like she usually did? How did she know she couldn't fall on > her sword later, if that indeed turned out to be the only way to avenge the > souls? > > Because the way it was written, she had to make her decision by sundown. That was the overriding concern. She ran out of time this time. Xena's twitchy sense was usually pretty good and the fact that she accepted this indicates that it was probably true. It was therefore a sacrifice for the greater good, a common theme in the series from the very first ep on. IFE: > I could think of as many arguments for Xena's "there are always choices" > fighting spirit being "characteristic," as I could of her "I'll do what I must at > the moment" willingness to put her life on the line at the drop of a hat. Yes true. This time the situation demanded that she put her life on the line. She can think about choices later. She doesn't end. Her spirit continues so she's got time now to consider all the angles and finagle the situation if she can. As she and Gabrielle sail off to Egypt, with full sails and no wind. (Ya think the ghostly Xena was blowing on them to propel them that way?) IFE: The > only difference was that this was the finale, where the rubber met the road > in terms of whether/how we perceived her as fulfilling her quest. I was okay > with Xena dying, so ended up not worrying about whether the reason was adequate > (although I also came up with numerous rationalizations for why it was). I didn't have to rationalize it at all. To me it was very obvious that the person of honor who Xena had shown herself to be for six years could never turn her back on those 40,000 souls whom she had damaged. Particularly when this is a person who we'd seen on an atonement quest since day one of the series, As I say, one can say they should never have written this scenario. But once they did, Xena had to make the choice she did. IFE: I > can't claim that's less "circular" than what the "there's no good reason for > her to die" folks did. > Well the ending of FIN didn't require circular logic at all for me. It was absolutely true to the Xena we'd been watching for six seasons now. (Examples below.) Snip Snip > > *I* found the "oops, here's another person from > my past who broke my heart, made me chop off her head, and inadvertently caused > me to burn down a whole city, trap thousands of souls in her evil father's > spirit, and necessitate my dying in order to bring them peace" scenario a bit > far-fetched. Of course, so were most of the scenarios we got, so I'm not saying > "ridiculous" is bad, just par for the course. To me. > Exactly-it was no less nor no more far fetched than many of the other Xena eps. We've all talked about this factor of XWP and most people seem to accept it. Myths often don't make a lot of sense and Xena was a mythic epic. IFe: > I don't mean to argumentative for it's own sake. I'm sensitive to what > appear to be double standards. I don't mind people believing what they want and > sharing what's going on in their heads. I have to push back when it sounds like > one position is being presented as more valid because the proponents arrived > at their position through more "objective" logic -- whether that's based on > what they saw or on somehow knowing what was going on in Xenastaff's heads. All > of it involves integrating some elements and discarding others, in terms of > what's "ridiculous" or "reasonable," certainly when it relates to the fantasy > world we're discussing. > Are you talking to me? Are YOU talking to me? Grin. Double standards certainly come into play very often when some people talk about FIN. Some people act as if FIN had come totally out of the blue and was unlike anything else that had ever come before. But that is an unsupportable claim. It's not true at all. The reality is that there are masses of objective examples one can point to to show that the ending of the series was foreshadowed over and over again in many eps. And that FIN ended in a way that PacRen had been leading up to as a distinct possibility for a long time. Xena literally puts her life on the line in just about every serious ep. But even more compelling for fitting FIN in with dozens of other eps, is that we've seen her die numerous times before. She dies in Destiny, Bitter Suite, Ides of March and FIN. She appears to die in the Greater Good, Looking Death In The Eye, The Rheingold and The Way. She gives up and agrees to die because her enemies want her dead in Fates. Her soul dies in Fallen Angel. Gabrielle dies too. She's dead for a little bit in Doctor (brain dead, as we medics call it) and dies in Bitter Suite. She seems to die in Sacrifice. She is willing to die in One Against An Army. But I never heard anyone say that any of these other deaths in XWP were seen as negating the life Xena and Gabrielle had spent together nor destroyed the value of their relationship. Aside from dying on each other, Xena and Gabrielle are also separated a number of times in the series for the sake of the Greater Good. Xena chooses to "take her punishment" in order to atone for her past and leaves Gabrielle behind when she lets herself be put in jail in The Reckoning and in Locked Up and Tied Down. She leaves Gabrielle behind when she goes on possible suicide missions to rectify old wrongs in the Debt, The Ring arc and FIN. She tries to give Gabrielle away a number of times to save her from dying on the cross with her in season four. But despite these examples, somehow Xena dying in FIN and leaving Gabrielle behind is a HUGE surprise to some people. Aside from claiming that Xena dying was something they never expected, people also tried to claim that FIN was more violent and misogynist than any other ep. For example, people point with disgust to Xena's body being mutilated and hung up like a side of beef in FIN. Did these people miss The Way where Xena's arms are chopped off, and Who's Gurkhan, where Gurkhan's boys hang Xena upside down and beat her with their fists and with batons? And those tortures are even worse, since in those eps she's still alive and so able to suffer horribly during them. How come these same circumstances didn't start an outrage among those future FIN hating fans? The same people who boo-hoooed over Gabrielle's bravery in One Against An Army, glorifying her willingness to die for the greater good because it made her such a hero were some of the same people who tried to claim that having Xena die for the greater good was a direct insult to Gabrielle and the love they have for each other. Yes, Xena stayed dead this time. BUT by staying dead she receives her redemption which is what she's been looking for since we first saw her in Sins of the Past. Xena was a warrior who was on a quest to make atonement for her evil past. If you ignore the massive number of scenes, eps and arcs that all present that story because the story you want to see doesn't fit in with large parts of the story they gave us, then yeah, by doing that, FIN could come as a complete and total surprise to you. So sure, you can chose to see Xena deciding to stay dead as being all about dissing Gabrielle and not about the 40,000 people whom she saved. It's easy when you ignore massive number of hours of XWP's storylines. And even if we never get the movie that "fixes" FIN as all the other "One of them's dead" eps got fixed, Tapert and Stewart have already shown us that the love between these two souls never dies. In Between the Lines, Dj vu, and Soul Possession, we see that they continue down the centuries, their souls finding each other and making room for each other in their lives endlessly. No matter what bodies they find themselves in. Now, in the series, there are two times when Xena says that Gabrielle is more important to her than the Greater Good. But neither time does this attitude last. In One Against An Army, Xena says she's going to put Gabrielle's safety above everything. And in Legacy where though there is no greater good issue, Xena again claims that Gabrielle is more important than the greater good to her. In both of the above examples, Gabrielle is willing to die and leave Xena behind. In other words, the greater good is more important to her than letting others die just so she can continue to live with Xena. In OAAA, Gabrielle (who's obviously been watching the series) says she can't let Xena rescue her at the expense of other people's lives because THAT would negate their lives together and everything they've stood for. And surely, anyone who loves OAAA should therefore love FIN. I know folks who do love both eps. But I know MANY folks who love OAAA and despise FIN. Again, subjecting FIN to a definite double standard. And, as we see in the Ring arc, which came shortly after Xena claiming in Legacy that Gabrielle is more important that the greater good to her, Xena again goes off on a probable sacrificial suicide mission to make old wrongs right and leaves Gabrielle behind to live without her once again, knowing that she will grieve for her. (With nothing but a smooched up note for solace.) So while there are two instances where the dialogue says Gabrielle is more important to Xena than doing what the greater good requires, there are literally hundreds of examples where we see it's not. And besides, in the Xenaverse dead is never forever. You KNOW Gabrielle's gotta be scrambling to figure out some way to get Xena back. Xena and Gabrielle deeply loved each other. That is also undeniable and also totally supported in dozens of scenes. And it's supported in FIN when we see that Gabrielle loved Xena enough to want her to have the peace she'd been seeking since she met her, even though it would break Gabrielle's heart to do so. In other words, she stood by the decision she had made in OAAA and accepted that Xena needed to sacrifice herself for the greater good, just like Gabrielle had wanted to do then. You will of course try to claim that this is just my opinion. I defy ANYONE to say that Xena not carrying Gabrielle off to Athens on Argo in OAAA to get the antidote doesn't prove that working for the Greater Good is the most important thing in both their lives. It is literally what they live (and die) for. And that was right up there on our screens for everyone to see, week after week after week. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 03:56:27 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] FIN and dying a hero's death on a dumb television show > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > > >>In fact, one of the most moving posts I ever read about FIN was written > > by > > >>a woman who had lost her partner to death a number of years ago. And she > > >>talked about how FIN validated for her that the love between her and her > > >>partner transcended the death of one of them. And that the sight of Xena's > > >>spirit at Gabrielle's side was incredibly heart fulfilling and satisfying > > >>for her as an emblematic image of the never ending love in her own life. >> > > IFE: > > > > > >I'm sure it was. I just wonder how eagerly she would've chosen that image, > > >over the chance to have her partner with her in the flesh, healthy and > > alive. > > KT > > Oh Ife, that is TOTALLY a stalking horse. Of COURSE she'd prefer not to > > have her partner gone from her life. But she refuses to agree that the > > death of a partner totally negates the good things about their life > > together. Which is what people were trying to say.>> > > They claimed > > this as if it were an absolute truth for everyone. And that is ALWAYS > > bogus. That is exactly the opposite of what you're saying. They refuse to > > accept the validity of other peoples' lenses. And THAT'S what many of us > > objected to. Not their opinons. But the fact that they discounted ours. >> > IFE: > Yes, it drives me nuts when folks do that. I just don't think it changes > anything by discounting theirs in turn. But no one's doing that here. I honestly don't understand why you keep bringing that up. We're saying we disagree with their opinion of an episode. Are we not allowed to disagree because they're upset? And besides, the difference I saw was that some of the FIN haters were not just attacking the episode. Rather, they viciously attacked the people who made the episode and the people who liked the episode. They claimed that Tapert had ulterior motives, that he had killed Xena solely because she was a strong woman and/or lesbian. That he had tricked all of us for many years into thinking he respected strong women and FIN was proof positive that he was a master deceiver who had "thrust a knife into the heart of true fans everywhere." One person claimed that because the show was cancelled, he had "broken the toys in the sandbox", thus guaranteeing that nobody else would ever be able to write any further adventures of Xena. This of course got recycled endlessly by a number of hysterical fans as gospel truth, totally ignoring the opportunity the cliff-hanger of FIN gave him to bring her back from death as he always had before, in any way his unlimited imagination might conjure up. (Or by "ripping off" any number of other stories.) And what I've learned from my many years on line is that if no one speaks up when people start attacking people for their opinions, calling them names and claiming they have ulterior motives, then those people just never stop until they have driven people with differing opinions right off the lists. And then congratulate themselves for having done so. I'm sensitive to this type of obnoxious behavior because it was just a situation like this that first led to me actually posting publicly. I had been on the lists for well over a year, probably closer to two years than one, before I ever posted anything. But on the Xenaverse list, there was such a truly hysterical reaction to season three that the list nearly imploded under the weight of some truly vicious attacks. Day after day a handful of people constantly ripped apart the producers for creating the rift arc and also tried to ream out anyone who enjoyed season three and dared to say so. The most benign thing they called us was "sheep", who'd swallow anything "Tapeworm" shoved down our throats. Most people who liked the eps continued to write positive posts about the rift arc, either ignoring the worst of the attackers or responding by speaking calmly and keeping to the opinions stated rather than the character of the posters. Even these people were subjected to the same vicious and bullying rampages in reply. Unfortunately, some people did reply in kind which just generated a mindless ganging up on individuals by the anti-rift crowd. Ultimately, a number of good and satisfied fans who still loved the show said they were regretfully leaving the list because it was no longer a fun place to be. THAT really p*ssed me off and made me realize that even in cyber space, bowing to bullies is cowardice. And certainly does nothing to promote tolerance. And then FINALLY, even Spikus, that most tolerant and easy-going of moderators stepped in and said that the Xenaverse was a list for fans of the show. And that the constant drumbeat of negative posts was driving fans away. And that anyone who wanted to do nothing but attack other posters for being fans, well it was time for them to go. Spikus of course was soundly condemned for doing this. But many of us were very relieved and I remember thanking her publicly for speaking up and essentially saving the list, while begging a few posters whose posts I had always enjoyed to not leave. So yeah, extremely angry, disgruntled fans attacking other fans because they disagreed about an episode always makes me want to fight for the "greater good" of tolerating differing opinions. Far more than making me want to nurture the damaged fans along by just meekly standing by while they spit on anyone who disagrees with them. And ultimately drive the more timid or less aggressively argumentative people totally off the lists. Thus effectively censoring what is allowed to be said on the lists. That's what I felt was happening, so my > own little "fairness" meter made me jump to their defense. Unnecessary, I > know, but it's a knee-jerk response. LOL! Ife, you know, I honestly feel that if I had come out complaining about Fates by sobbing hysterically that that b*tch Fugate had stabbed all true fans through the heart by showing Xena as a stupid coward who dies for no reason, leaving Gabrielle behind to bear the consequences, (while fluttering a hanky as I dab at my weeping eyes and wailing that Fugate did it just to torment ME), then you would be defending me against all comers. Note-I KNOW I couldn't do that with a straight face and I know even more fully that my buds wouldn't let me get away with it. (And hey, since Fugate did say at a con that she threw in Xenadrag3 to make up for the Gabdrag, there is actually objective information that Fugate DID want to humiliate and hurt Xena, just out of a sense of mean-spirited vengeance. Whereas, there is no evidence at all that Tapert wanted to hurt Xena just for kicks in FIN. But boy, I never heard anybody accuse Fugate of that, unlike the dozens of people who accused Tapert of it. Amazing, eh?) And I truly think that had I been hysterical, YOU would have been much more likely to let me have my say AND to say that I had the right to feel the way I do. Unlike the response you do have to me disliking the way Fugate portrayed Xena. Which is to endlessly try to point out why I'm wrong. Heh. KT: > > md by the way also has a absolutely fabulous post on FIN in which she > > states how Xena dying did nothing to destroy the life she and Gabrielle > > had lived together and how positive that life had been portrayed. IFE: > Yes, I agree with that. Bottom line, those fans had valid reasons for > wanting to see a different ending. I believe they felt someone else's ending had > been imposed on them, Well duh. Yes. Tapert's. Just like he "imposed" everything else about the show and the characters on us. so they wanted to impose their ending on everybody else. But they weren't the people who created the show and presented it to us. So why should we have to accept their version over the one by the people who had given us this creation in the first place? Which is what they wanted we people who didn't hate FIN to do. And which made them furious when we didn't. And so led to them attacking us. > This is where your "immutable facts" come into play, as we were presented with > Xena's headless corpse and fading image. AND the fact of the 40,000 condemned souls being saved. Just as Xena had saved so many others in the course of the series. I kinda feel sorry for those folks, > because they had to deny what they obviously saw. > WHAT? Are you claiming something on screen is obviously objective? GRIN Hey-denial has never bothered them before. They've denied MASSES of material. Which of course is a big part of why they found the ending showing Xena completing her atonement quest so surprising. But that sure isn't Tapert's fault. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #374 **************************************