From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #370 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, December 11 2003 Volume 03 : Number 370 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Entelechy Destiny Fate and big collisions [Ife] [chakram-refugees] Alecto or Alceto? [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Entelechy Destiny Fate and big collisions [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Entelechy Destiny Fate and big collisions [IfeRae] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:42:39 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Entelechy Destiny Fate and big collisions In a message dated 12/9/2003 4:30:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > KT knows Xena - she's right about > >FatesXene, even though she's wrong about what a cool episode it is{n't}. > > > > LOL! Amazingly, I keep hearing that. (From SOME quarters...grin) >> I heard that. > But Xena doesn't trust Gabrielle's ability to rescue herself or to defend > herself. Xena has a HUGE protective streak where Gabrielle is concerned. > Gabrielle deserves to live no matter what happens to Xena. >> Hmmm, "trust" doesn't seem appropriate here, so much as doesn't *want* Gabs in harmful situations -- at least initially. Later on, I do think Xena'ss pretty much accepted both Gab's ability and the fact that she'll be at the WP's back -- sometimes saving the WP's skin, like in Locked Up. However, even to the end, Xena kept her protective streak. > KT's disgust with FatesXena is, IMO, way too mild. She really was > >wrong, wrong, wrong. Heck, if I had written the episode, I'd have written > Xena > >as a doting sex-toy of Caesar; he would have seen that thread at the time > of > >`Destiny` and preserved it, I would have thought. > > > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Loverly! Damn, that would have been FUN to watch Lucy > play. >> Ugh! Wash your mouth! I could only stand that "seductive" Xena in Destiny for two minutes. I do not think that was Lucy's strong point. Her tryst with Antony came the closest to believable for me, probably because it had an "edge" to it, rather than the goo-goo eyes she had with Marcus, Caesar or Ulysses. > >And I say, that "our" Xena consisted only of those portions of Xena that > had > >noticed the connection with Gabrielle and had seen in Alti's vision the > >twisting of fate. > >That Xena had to preserve these true parts at all costs. And she did. > Trust > >Gabrielle, she'll do good. And when Gabrielle can't be trusted, there's > hell > >to pay! > > > You Gabfans are just so CUTE! Smile. >> What?!! That's it? You used up all your arguments on *me*? "Cute." Grrrrrr. > < not appear as puissant, universe-destroying until AFTER the fact. BUT I do > understand that you're saying that THIS was exactly the leap of faith that > that stupid Fates Xena took--that Gabrielle would save the world. << Wait a minute! I thought you didn't buy that Xena knew what Gabs was up to or that she would save anything. > > I don't agree. (I actually laughed out loud when I said that--KNOWING it's > not going to be a surprise in some quarters. grin) >> Oh, sorry. Got ahead of myself. Whew! At least the "characteristic" KT hasn't disappeared completely. > You know, I honestly am not being stubborn. (Not with YOU anyway.)>> Oh, no, of course not. Just with OTHER people -- Xenafans, no less. Humph! - -- Ife (thanking Cleanthes for bringing out KT's "light" side, as befits -- but doesn't always happen with -- a Gabfan) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 22:23:03 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Alecto or Alceto? I'm just checking through the credits of Xena episodes and I see the credits for The Furies have Asa Lindh listed as playing Alceto. The credits for Motherhood and Coming Home (according to XT's excellent episode transcripts) have it as Alecto. Do any of the classically inclined on this list know the correct name for the Fury in question? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:21:54 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Entelechy Destiny Fate and big collisions On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:41, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > Dilbert inspects the accounting department. They have a "random number" > > monster who provides random numbers. "Nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, > > nine ... " > > the monster intones. "Are you sure that's random?" Dilbert asks his > > guide. > > > > "That's the problem with randomness," the accountant replies, "you can > > never be > > sure." >> > > Bwhahahaha! Which is the kind of thing that drives me nuts. In an infinite series of random numbers (or even a series of just six truly random numbers), '999999' is precisely as likely to occur (and hence as random) as any other sequence. However, if the integrity of the sequence generator is in doubt, there is a high probability that '999999' could have been generated by some non-random process, whereas it is far less likely that, say, '963164' was generated by a non-random process. (I just generated that one by reading the second-last digit of the file sizes of six html pages from XT's episode guide stashed on my hard drive. I'd guess this is a fairly random source. But look how '963' *looks* like a sequence - - this happens all the time in random numbers. In fact if I do the whole column I get '95179964963164978699865' which has all sorts of highly non-random-looking regularities in it. But I think the source is truly random because I can see *no* causal way in which the sizes of XT's successive episode reviews should show any regularity at the tens-digit level. All this proves is that random numbers are tricky). > > > Modern science declares entelechy a non-issue. Random numbers are random > > because they're random; that's the definition of random and nothing more > > can be > > said. This is perfectly fine as far as it goes, but fiction (and people > > who > > read astrology columns and numerology and Lord knows what else) demands > > more. >> > > I can't wait to see cr's reponse to that. Heh heh. Hmmm, although he'll > probably agree with this ("for the most part"). My response is 'ummmmm.' I'm not sure of the current *definition* of random; I do know that random-number-generating algorithms have to be very carefully designed so they don't end up producing some pattern, and that *true* randomness seems to be quite hard to achieve. That reference to astrology and numerology sounds vaguely insulting but since I can't figure out who (if anyone) is being insulted by it I'll let it pass. ;) (snippage) > < fondest of the existential Christian writers, Dostoyevsky and Kierkegaard, > which I > should have mentioned last time, but didn't. It makes more sense for poor, > perverted Fates-Xena to make this leap of faith toward the puissant, > universe-destroying Gabrielle, from the standpoint of Christian (or > theistic) > existentialism than it does from the standpoint of the atheist > existentialism of those > French philosophers that most people think of. >> > A "poor, perverted" person making a "leap of faith" toward a "puissant, > universe destroying" being. My. No wonder crosses give me the willies. > :-) Umm, I think that was Dahak, wasn't it? The universe destroying being I mean ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:43:34 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Entelechy Destiny Fate and big collisions (massive snippage) On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 04:22, Brule31x63@aol.com wrote: > Well, Ife, Thelonius (CR) & KT have been circling the Drain of Fate all > presenting various considerations of the episode `When Fates Collide`. > > As a Gabfan, I thought I'd intervene, but my one pot-shot just stirred the > juices, I guess. Gabfans are rather more likely than Xenafans to enjoy > `Fates`. Conversely, Xenafans will like `The Path Not Taken` much more than > Gabfans because `TPNT` gives an utterly Xenacentric view of things. Well, actually, that's an ep I don't care for very much. Maybe because it's not really showing Xena in a very interesting (to me) light. In the same way, although I like Between the Lines, I wince at seeing Xena as Arminestra (?) the 'mother of peace'. To me, Xena's not really Xena unless she's acting forcefully. (I didn't say 'forcibly' but forcefully includes that ) > > It's all a matter of priviledge, you see. In `WFC` the PRIVILEDGED point > of view was with Caesar & Alti - with Evil EVIL, in other words. The only > goodguys with a claim on knowing what was going on were Gabrielle & Joxer; > not Xena. To me, the purpose of the episode was to justify Gabrielle > destroying the Fates' loom near the end of the episode. Early on in the > episode, we saw Caesar perverting Fate by making a masturbatory change in > the weave, as he refered to events in the episode `Destiny` when he had > Xena tricked. He changed things to KEEP Xena tricked. (snippage) > Even the Xena of `Fates`, though, understands that Gabrielle's existence > proves the falseness of her existence. So I shouldn't have said that this > Xena suicided. In order to suicide, you have to be living. Once the > Fates-Xena realized the falseness of her existence, all she cared about was > that the one true compass of this existence, Gabrielle, would survive. Of > course, Gabrielle went ahead and justified Xena's trust. An interesting argument, but an out-of-character doppelganger Xena really isn't one I'd want to watch for a whole episode. As you say, Gabfans are more likely to like WFC than Xenafans, I think. > > This is why I mentioned the existential leap in my previous post. I'm > fondest of the existential Christian writers, Dostoyevsky and Kierkegaard, > which I should have mentioned last time, but didn't. It makes more sense > for poor, perverted Fates-Xena to make this leap of faith toward the > puissant, universe-destroying Gabrielle, from the standpoint of Christian > (or theistic) existentialism than it does from the standpoint of the > atheist existentialism of those French philosophers that most people think > of. I think CR interpreted my statement from the atheist standpoint. I think I probably did. (Always assuming that those French philosophers whoever they were had the standpoint I guess they probably had :) > Sorry for the confustication. Xena did the honorable thing - not kill > herself, but make the existential leap, much as Gabrielle did in > `Sacrifice`. > > The Xenaverse has gods and Eidos and metagods, and the rules of heaven can > change when Xena attacks from hell, and who knows what else, maybe even > Japanese rules of atonement. Xena can afford to trust that _something_ > would happen, and given her realization of the wrongness of the > Caesarverse, she could hardly go wrong loving Gabrielle. > Spoken like a true Gabfan :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:50:04 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Entelechy Destiny Fate and big collisions On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:08, KTL wrote: > Oh bravo, Dude! > > (massive snippage of your most excellent post only for bandswidth sake) > > > Well, Ife, Thelonius (CR) & KT have been circling the Drain of Fate all > > presenting various considerations of the episode `When Fates Collide`. > > Yes, but not all of us have resisted the pull to the sewer. ;-> Is that a joke? That better not be a joke! (Said in the manner of Thor in Somewhere Over the Rainbow Bridge, I wish you lot weren't so ignorant of Herc episodes, says cr who has, *right now* on the TV, a tape sequence of a guy walking through a sewer - being copied in connection with his job.) > > I very much think `When Fates Collide` > > > changed a lot of things. So many in fact that the Fates themselves were > > unable to set things right. > > Well of course that's the premise. The Fates BEFORE the change are however > presented differently than the Fates in "Fates". Before this, the Fates > were always all powerful and absolutely immutable in doing their duty. As > I pointed out, even Zeus has to "obey" them. I remember the first time we > talked about Fates, we had a discussion on "Do the Fates MAKE what happens > happen? Or do they just record it?" In other words, which comes first--the > woven parts of the loom or that actions that the loom records? > > Sicne they speak in riddles, one always wonders exactly what's going on. > For example, in "looking Death in the Eye", they literally say that Xena > must die. > > (Dialogue from Whoosh transcript) > > X: "What do you mean? It's me that determines when the twilight > begins? How?" > > Atr: "You must die, Xena." > > Clo: "Only in the essence of death-- will the child find > salvation-- and the twilight be set in motion. Until then, a > storm without end lies upon your path, and hers." > > G: "You're saying that, the sooner Xena dies, the faster Eve > brings about the fall of the gods? [Whispers] No [Normal > Voice]-- Xena, let's go. Hey-- what are you doing? You're not > listening to them? Xena, you have said we _always_ determine our > own fate. It's not written for us. You've always believed > that." > > (You GO grrl! Exactly...grin) > > X: "I still believe that, Gabrielle. So do they. It's the only > way. I have to die, Gabrielle." > > > Two things. First, Xena latches onto the "essence of death". Second if > anybody could destroy the loom to make things the way she wants them, it > SHOULD have been Xena. Heh. > > Anyway, were the Fates giving Xena clues about how to create the coming > events? Thus leaving the loom as created by the free will of individuals, > rather than it existing as a type of "Predestination" thing, with > the loom itself creating what happens to a person. (I think the second is > much closer to what the Greeks believed then.) Xena of course never > followed that believe. From Sins of the Past on, she's out to recreate > herself, no matter what the Fates may say about it. > > And of coures in this ep--she doesn't die to start the Twilight, thus > defying what the first Fate proclaimed. Yeah but she *staged* her apparent death, thus making the Fates' prediction come true at least symbolically. If you read it as 'You must "die", Xena' (of course the quotes don't show up in the spoken word) then it becomes literally true. And 'only in the essence of death (Death's tears which Xena used to stage it) will the child find salvation' yadda yadda These things - as Ares pointed out to Athena - were self-fulfilling prophecies. (snippppp) > > Xena-the-sex-toy would really have pissed off the Xena fans, > > Oh, whoops! Uh.. yeah--I'm appalled. APPALLED I tell ya! Now a world like > THAT would of course deserve to be blown up. Uh-HUH! Damn right! It's not us Xenafans who get all excited over the publicity stills of Xena in that Amazon cossie in Path of Vengeance, or Xena strolling out of the pond in Altared States, or Xena giving Ares an eyeful in Chakram, or any of that stuff, no way, no sirree! > > > (see `The Bitter Suite`; incidentally, what happened to Solan when > > the Gods fell? Xena sent him off to Elysium, but then she killed Hades. > > To save Solan the universe of the gods had to go > > Welll, she'd already rescued Solon from the Blockbuster Video rerun > section of Hades. Besides, Fates proposes that Hades and Elysim still > exist. But that folks are apparently free to come and go, no? That's why > Julius Caesar can get to the Fates. I buy that as possible. But I still > dont buy that he could overpower the Fates the way he did. Yeah, Xena killed Hades, but that doesn't mean that his establishment ceased to exist. Olympus was still there, therefore presumably Hades (the place), Tartarus and the Elysian Fields were still there, albeit with nobody in charge. Though Hades did say several times that he had a staff (I mean people, not a staff like Gabs's) so presumably they just kept the place running as any good bureaucrat would do until a replacement manager was appointed. (snipped a whole lot more KT rant that I mostly agree with) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:08:38 -0500 From: "Ribaud, Lynn" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Alecto or Alceto? cr asks: > I'm just checking through the credits of Xena episodes and I > see the credits > for The Furies have Asa Lindh listed as playing Alceto. > > The credits for Motherhood and Coming Home (according to XT's > excellent > episode transcripts) have it as Alecto. > > Do any of the classically inclined on this list know the > correct name for the > Fury in question? According to the Britannica (the one that *should* have a "c" in it...), the three Furies are: Alecto (Unceasing in Anger), Tisiphone (Avenger of Murder), and Megaera (Jealous) But these names were given "later" (in this case, after Euripides, who they claim was the first to state that they were three in number). Lynn Lynn Ribaud ribaud@bnl.gov ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:08:40 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Entelechy Destiny Fate and big collisions In a message dated 12/10/2003 2:13:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > In an infinite series of random numbers (or even a series of just six truly > > random numbers), '999999' is precisely as likely to occur (and hence as > random) as any other sequence. However, if the integrity of the sequence > generator is in doubt, there is a high probability that '999999' could have > been generated by some non-random process, whereas it is far less likely > that, say, '963164' was generated by a non-random process. (I just > generated that one by reading the second-last digit of the file sizes of six > > html pages from XT's episode guide stashed on my hard drive. I'd guess > this is a fairly random source. But look how '963' *looks* like a sequence > > - this happens all the time in random numbers. In fact if I do the whole > column I get '95179964963164978699865' which has all sorts of highly > non-random-looking regularities in it. But I think the source is truly > random because I can see *no* causal way in which the sizes of XT's > successive episode reviews should show any regularity at the tens-digit > level. All this proves is that random numbers are tricky). You have warned us about not wanting to be in your head. Warning heeded. Cleanthese said: > >>Modern science declares entelechy a non-issue. Random numbers are random > >>because they're random; that's the definition of random and nothing more > >>can be > >>said. This is perfectly fine as far as it goes, but fiction (and people > >>who > >>read astrology columns and numerology and Lord knows what else) demands > >>more. >> > > > > I can't wait to see cr's reponse to that. Heh heh. Hmmm, although he'll > >probably agree with this ("for the most part"). > > That reference to astrology and numerology sounds vaguely insulting but > since > I can't figure out who (if anyone) is being insulted by it I'll let it pass. > > ;)>> Yeah, I was wondering about that too. I don't generally read astrology columns (which I associate with ... um ... more Xenalite fans), but then remembered that I have actually read *serious* astrology books and other personality-style/archetype kinds of references, so I too let it pass. > > >A "poor, perverted" person making a "leap of faith" toward a "puissant, > >universe destroying" being. My. No wonder crosses give me the willies. > > :-) > > Umm, I think that was Dahak, wasn't it? The universe destroying being I > mean ;) >> Oh. I thought Cleanthes was referring to Xena making that leap because of Gabs. - -- Ife > > cr > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #370 **************************************