From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #352 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, November 26 2003 Volume 03 : Number 352 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] When the Farts Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] OAAA [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: Lucy & Tarzan [cande@sunlink.net] [chakram-refugees] "Good" Reasons for Xena to Die (Was Re: When Fates Collide) [IfeRae@] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:45:41 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] When the Farts Collide In a message dated 11/24/2003 11:29:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, Brule31x63@aol.com writes: > Gabrielle's destruction of the universe is > completely justified *because* false Xena allowed herself to die in `When > Fates Collide`. That's how wrong the Xena of Fates was, but then, so it > should > be, IMO... (of course) > Very interesting. Not my own view, which holds that Xena triumphed by rejecting the false world Caesar created, but I understand your logic. On one hand, it supports KT's contention that this Xena gave up for nothing and was willing to let Caesar prevail. On the other, it supports my own idea that the Xena we got was perfectly in keeping with Fates' false world. A major difference is that I think KT believes Xena would've retained her will to fight back regardless of the circumstances. I can't wait to see what Ms. I'm Through With Discussing Fates For The year says. I just hope she manages to respond anyway before Jan. 1. Heh. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:45:47 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide In a message dated 11/24/2003 12:33:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >First, I saw as much dislike for Xena's reason for dying in AFIN as in > WFC. > >Indeed, the anger was even greater because of the permanent consequences of > >what many saw as senseless, perplexing, injust, and/or supportive of > >vengeance. > > Oh, *much* more anger. But that was because (IMO) of factors completely > unrelated to the validity of the reasons for Xena staying dead, and much > more > related to the consequences. > > That is to say, that in FIN, Xena ended up dead ('permanently') and > separated > from Gabs, and for many fans, *no* reason, not even saving the universe, > would have been good enough for that. >> That may well be. However, I did see quite a few posts where the reason did fuel the anger, as its "senselessness" served to belittle the relationship. Beyond that, I think it's perfectly valid for them to have a different set of criteria for judging AFIN, which were less about reasons for Xena's honoring her solitary quest and more about reasons for honoring her love for Gabs. I'm not arguing their point, so much as saying I understand where they're coming from, which is different from where you and I are coming from. > > In WFC, on the other hand, Xena and Gabs ended up alive and together, and > given that ending I have the impression that most of those same fans really > couldn't have cared less in WFC if Xena had just chomped too much nutbread > and let Jules baby crucify her just for the heck of it. >> Possibly, just as you and I accepted that Xena died in an equally ridiculous scenario. > >Second, it's completely subjective as to whether we agree with > >the "reasons" given for someone's sacrificing themselves. I don't see it > >as a "red herring" to point out double standards for determining which > >point of view of more "reasonable." > > > >-- Ife > > We were discussing WFC. Red herring to bring FIN into it. IMO. >> Why? We were talking about what "real" Xena would or wouldn't do. That necessitates comparison with other situations, which is why KT gave examples of "real" Xena from other eps. I merely brought in another comparison that I thought relevant to her point about Xena's not sacrificing herself unless it was a "good" reason. > Every other time Xena got killed (or nearly killed) - e.g. Destiny, Ides, > The > Way, The Greater Good - it was not voluntary. It was imposed on her by an > enemy who temporarily had the upper hand. >> Precisely. Based on what we saw in other situations, you and KT believe we should not have seen Xena behave as she did in Fates. I agree it was uncharacteristic, but find it consistent with the premise of Fates -- that the Xena in this world was not who she was supposed to be. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:45:50 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OAAA In a message dated 11/23/2003 10:16:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > And for her line, "Go home. There are thousands > more like me." That just cracks me up. Modest little thing, ain't she? > grin > Do I dare mention that this is one of the few lines Lucy has said she couldn't believe Xena was uttering? Oh, I guess I did. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:28:22 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:45, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/24/2003 12:33:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > >First, I saw as much dislike for Xena's reason for dying in AFIN as in > > > > WFC. > > > > >Indeed, the anger was even greater because of the permanent consequences > > > of what many saw as senseless, perplexing, injust, and/or supportive of > > > vengeance. > > > > Oh, *much* more anger. But that was because (IMO) of factors completely > > unrelated to the validity of the reasons for Xena staying dead, and much > > more > > related to the consequences. > > > > That is to say, that in FIN, Xena ended up dead ('permanently') and > > separated > > from Gabs, and for many fans, *no* reason, not even saving the universe, > > would have been good enough for that. >> > > That may well be. However, I did see quite a few posts where the reason > did fuel the anger, as its "senselessness" served to belittle the > relationship. I think it was a circular argument - its proponents had already decided that no reason would be sufficient, therefore the reason was inadequate. > Beyond that, I think it's perfectly valid for them to have a > different set of criteria for judging AFIN, which were less about reasons > for Xena's honoring her solitary quest and more about reasons for honoring > her love for Gabs. I'm not arguing their point, so much as saying I > understand where they're coming from, which is different from where you and > I are coming from. > > > In WFC, on the other hand, Xena and Gabs ended up alive and together, and > > given that ending I have the impression that most of those same fans > > really couldn't have cared less in WFC if Xena had just chomped too much > > nutbread and let Jules baby crucify her just for the heck of it. >> > > Possibly, just as you and I accepted that Xena died in an equally > ridiculous scenario. *Not* ridiculous to me, that's the point. But this is just going round-the-houses again..... > > >Second, it's completely subjective as to whether we agree with > > > > > >the "reasons" given for someone's sacrificing themselves. I don't see > > > it as a "red herring" to point out double standards for determining > > > which point of view of more "reasonable." > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > We were discussing WFC. Red herring to bring FIN into it. IMO. >> > > Why? We were talking about what "real" Xena would or wouldn't do. That > necessitates comparison with other situations, which is why KT gave > examples of "real" Xena from other eps. I merely brought in another > comparison that I thought relevant to her point about Xena's not > sacrificing herself unless it was a "good" reason. Hmmm. OK. > > Every other time Xena got killed (or nearly killed) - e.g. Destiny, Ides, > > The > > Way, The Greater Good - it was not voluntary. It was imposed on her by > > an enemy who temporarily had the upper hand. >> > > Precisely. Based on what we saw in other situations, you and KT believe we > should not have seen Xena behave as she did in Fates. I agree it was > uncharacteristic, but find it consistent with the premise of Fates -- that > the Xena in this world was not who she was supposed to be. > > -- Ife Well, I guess I could accept cleanthes' premise - that the Fates Xena was a spurious quite un-Xena-like Xena (i.e 'wrong') - and therefore that world needed to be destroyed. (I hope I've understood Cleanthes more or less...) That prob'ly puts it on a par with the bizarre world in Fishsticks cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:10:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Lucy & Tarzan My only comment about the probable final episode of Tarzan is: It took them 8 episodes to unleash Lucy and her character. What a waste. bd> I agree 100%. Finally I saw Lucy really taking hold of that part and make it her own. I also thought Mitch was starting to be interesting too. I loved their confrontation and especially Kate's sarcasm when she said someting to the effect "Oh animal refrences, how cute. Just remember I can be a real bitch." I also liked her humor in her scene with Jane when saying they were friends afterall : "you aided and I abetted." I think at this point we might have gotten a half decent series but it was way too late. Too bad maybe Lucy and Mitch can come back as fighting siblings sans Tarzan and Jane but TPTB could keep Jane's partner around (I really liked him). CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:01:36 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] "Good" Reasons for Xena to Die (Was Re: When Fates Collide) In a message dated 11/25/2003 3:30:26 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >That may well be. However, I did see quite a few posts where the reason > >did fuel the anger, as its "senselessness" served to belittle the > >relationship. > > I think it was a circular argument - its proponents had already decided that > > no reason would be sufficient, therefore the reason was inadequate. >> My argument wasn't much different. Initially, I wondered why the scenario didn't involve a past "debt" we had "history" with (e.g., Callisto, the town her army torched in Gauntlet). Then I felt a little like KT does about the Xena in Fates. Why did Xena accept the thing about staying dead at face value? Why not let Gabs bring her back, so she'd be in a position to look into other courses of action, like she usually did? How did she know she couldn't fall on her sword later, if that indeed turned out to be the only way to avenge the souls? I could think of as many arguments for Xena's "there are always choices" fighting spirit being "characteristic," as I could of her "I'll do what I must at the moment" willingness to put her life on the line at the drop of a hat. The only difference was that this was the finale, where the rubber met the road in terms of whether/how we perceived her as fulfilling her quest. I was okay with Xena dying, so ended up not worrying about whether the reason was adequate (although I also came up with numerous rationalizations for why it was). I can't claim that's less "circular" than what the "there's no good reason for her to die" folks did. > > >>In WFC, on the other hand, Xena and Gabs ended up alive and together, and > >>given that ending I have the impression that most of those same fans > >>really couldn't have cared less in WFC if Xena had just chomped too much > >>nutbread and let Jules baby crucify her just for the heck of it. >> > > > >Possibly, just as you and I accepted that Xena died in an equally > >ridiculous scenario. > > *Not* ridiculous to me, that's the point. But this is just going > round-the-houses again..... >> Ah, sorry I spoke for you. *I* found the "oops, here's another person from my past who broke my heart, made me chop off her head, and inadvertently caused me to burn down a whole city, trap thousands of souls in her evil father's spirit, and necessitate my dying in order to bring them peace" scenario a bit far-fetched. Of course, so were most of the scenarios we got, so I'm not saying "ridiculous" is bad, just par for the course. To me. I don't mean to argumentative for it's own sake. I'm sensitive to what appear to be double standards. I don't mind people believing what they want and sharing what's going on in their heads. I have to push back when it sounds like one position is being presented as more valid because the proponents arrived at their position through more "objective" logic -- whether that's based on what they saw or on somehow knowing what was going on in Xenastaff's heads. All of it involves integrating some elements and discarding others, in terms of what's "ridiculous" or "reasonable," certainly when it relates to the fantasy world we're discussing. > >Based on what we saw in other situations, you and KT believe we > >should not have seen Xena behave as she did in Fates. I agree it was > >uncharacteristic, but find it consistent with the premise of Fates -- that > >the Xena in this world was not who she was supposed to be. > > > >-- Ife > > Well, I guess I could accept cleanthes' premise - that the Fates Xena was a > spurious quite un-Xena-like Xena (i.e 'wrong') - and therefore that world > needed to be destroyed. (I hope I've understood Cleanthes more or less...) > >> That's what I got, except I hadn't quite thought about Xena being "wrong" in quite that way. Interesting premise. > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #352 **************************************