From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #351 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, November 25 2003 Volume 03 : Number 351 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Peekabo, I see you! [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re: No, this is NOT about When Fates Collide [IfeRae@a] Re: [chakram-refugees] Peekabo, I see you! [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [cr ] [chakram-refugees] When the Farts Collide [Brule31x63@aol.com] RE: [chakram-refugees] No, this is NOT about When Fates Collide ["Ribaud,] [chakram-refugees] Tarzan & Lucy - One Last Time ["bookdaft" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:10, KTL wrote: > > > > I have to admit that part of my delight in harpooning Fates is exactly > > because some people get absolutely OUTRAGED when somone talks against it. > > You could, of course, try hating One Against an Army for a change. > > Same scenario, same results. > > cr > You scoundrel! You KNOW that I disdain the dithering Xena of that ep also. And for exactly the same reasons--that indecisive, hand-wringing, changing-her-mind-every-two seconds and too dumb to take many opportunities to get Gabrielle away safely Xena is not one I recognize either. And here's a newsflash for ya--that kind of thing REALLY bothers me... But of course, this version of Xena was also written with an agenda. And "agenda" eps often twist the characters in order to serve the agenda, rather than creating a story that stays true to the established traits of the character or at least shows a character development that continues in later eps also. The agenda in OAAA was to make sure that everyone understood that the rift arc was over and had been successfully negotiated by our two little buddies. That they forgave each other and with Solon's help had found the love between them again. And the cute little totally unanguished exchange at the end, the "I thought you said these guys were tough." "I must have caught them on an off day." and the final line, "You still owe me a new pair of boots" shows that everything is now back to normal. Or at least, as close to normal as things ever get in Xena's world. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 21:16:03 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OAAA On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, S. Wilson wrote: > I have to admit - OAAA is a bit too sappy, Yes. > hardly believable (the whole Persian army? Well, that's Xena for ya. Actually, I never care much for the fights. But some of this one I like for two things--the shot of Xena sweaty and wet, standing ramrod straight and guarding the entrance to the barn with her sword drawn and ready, an implacable Rock of Gibralter you ain't getting past me type warrior. And for her line, "Go home. There are thousands more like me." That just cracks me up. Modest little thing, ain't she? grin Instant cure? feh), Yeah--TOOOO bogus by far. the final fight scene drags on a *bit* > too long, and while there are some good scenes in there worth keeping > (Gab's Xenadoll; Yeah, cool! And the whole beginning with the smug, teasing little Gabrielle eating dirt for her youthful arrogance. Xena getting mad that she can't will up the things Lao Ma > taught her; Gabby touching Xena's hair while she's sleeping; Very sweet. Very nicely done. Xena stabbing > that sucker with his own arrow), I enjoy OAAA with groans and reservations. > It mostly feels like a piece of sweepingly dramatic fanfiction to me, a > hurt/comfort story. Or maybe sweepingly dramatic fanfiction seems like a > Xena ep? *scratch brow* Hm. > LOL! For some it does. But fanfiction has always been in a WAY far behind second place compared to actually watching the series for me. Because in the series, I get to see Lucy as Xena. And in fanfic, I can only imagine how Lucy would act this line or this scene. And also in some fanfic, there's even less Xena Xena than in Fates and OAAA! > S. > (not diverting the topic off her beloved WFC, nosir) > Well *I* am! KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 02:03:27 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Peekabo, I see you! In a message dated 11/23/2003 5:49:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > I'm not really talking about Fates--I'm talking about general concepts of > dramatic series TV viewing. But since Ife is STILL talking about Fates, > (not that she's a stubborn old coot, or anything...) the example is here > on the page to use. >> Me?!!!! It was not this old coot's mailbox that spewed forth responses to the kicked, beaten, stomped, stangled, etc. Fates thread from six moons ago. Ha! > >>And yeah--when I tune into Xena: Warrior Princess, I DO want to see Xena: > >>Warrior Princess. I don't think that's unreasonable. > >> > > > >I absolutely agree. Fates was not the ep either of us necessarily wanted. > >The difference is, the Warrior Princess I saw in it was believable to me, > but > >not to you. Each of us has ample "evidence" for our perspectives, based on > >what we believed we saw. We can discuss our differences, but it won't > change > >that "our" Xena is what's in our heads, regardless of what she does > onscreen. > > > >-- Ife > > > No, that's backwards. What's in our heads is because of what she's done > onscreen, not regardless of it. >> Okay, I'll speak for myself. I was flipping through channels when I saw a woman doing what -- in my head -- "fit" my concept of what a female action hero could be, much better than Wonder Woman did no matter what was projected onscreen. From there, Lucy gave my concept texture, depth -- a personality, heart and soul. If she suddenly let herself go like she did in Doctor, I accepted it as "true," even if it was totally unexpected and even a little unsettling to me when I saw it. We both saw/heard Xena say "From me, nothing less" in Tsunami, yet it "fit" what was in my head, but didn't fit what was in yours. Whatever Xena we were comparing that to was based partly on our interpretation of what Lucy and the show had been doing all along, and partly on what we thought all that meant. IOW, we brought meaning to what we saw, just as what we saw enhanced what we brought to the show. > > What we saw on screen built up the reality of the character we expect to > see when we watch a Xena ep. And yeah, we all interpret her differently. > But there is no denying what is actually on the screen and actually in the > dialogue. Interpretations of these vary. But the images and the words > exist as objective reality.>> Cr and I had that discussion ad nauseum. I believe we agreed that "objective" reality is what's out there regardless of whether we're aware of it or not, but that once our awareness comes into play, so does subjectivity -- which is the realm of "reality" we operate in anytime we discuss our opinions about what "really" happened on XWP. My own position is that someone else's XWP is as valid for them as mine is for me, and that those views can be worlds apart even though we're watching the "same" show. > Certainly movies and plays have the same inherent "problem". But they > create a much more restricted presentation. Because we literally see the > characters and the environment they operate in. We don't have to make up > how everybody and everything looks and sounds. We not only read their > words, we hear them and we see the body language they use when > communicating also.>> I disagree. We live and work with people who are far more "real" and defined than what we see on TV, yet we misinterpret and project upon them every second of the day. They become what is in our own heads -- a smart, ambitious person to some people, a conniving ladder climber to others. Nothing, nothing, nothing that human beings talk about is devoid of human interpretation, no matter how much we "see" and how much we fill in ourselves. > To use your example of talking about what we saw, there is no denying that > Xena gives herself up to her enemies and was willing to die solely for > their agenda in Fates. No matter what kind of rationalization one may > make up for her doing this, it doesn't change the fact that she did. And > there is no denying that the dialogue when they return validates that > she had given up when she says to Gabrielle, "You brought the world back > to us." >> I don't deny that's what *you* saw. *I* saw Xena *not* accepting her enemies agenda, by choosing not to live as though it was right, "real," or worth trying to salvage. I saw Gabs choosing to tear it up. My point is that we're not arguing over whether or not both of us saw an image of, say, Xena on a cross. Neither of us is denying that. What we're arguing about is what Xena on a cross (or on *any* cross or on *that* cross* under *those* circumstances) *means* to us, which depends on what's in our heads. We're not arguing about whether Xena did some things differently in Fates that we hadn't seen before, though we could. We're arguing over whether we *believed* it, which again depends on what's in our heads. > > Though I have to say, I DO enjoy your "It was purposely made so bad to > make the regular grrl's relationship look so good" argument. I just LOVE > creativity. >> I didn't say "bad." I said superficial, romanticized, even bland. I didn't say "good" either. I said their "real" relationship had more depth and meaning because of both the good and bad things they'd gone through together. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 02:03:29 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: No, this is NOT about When Fates Collide In a message dated 11/23/2003 5:36:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > No Ife, I'm done discussing Farts for this year. >> It's almost December, so that ain't sayin' much. > I'm SURE > you'll be replying to this...grin. >> Well, after that comment, it would be impolite not to. > > > > >>Yes. Xena always admired Gabrielle's goodness. It's one of the big jokes > >>of the series, actually. How Xena sees such an amazing, good character > >>in Gabrielle, one to emulate and treasure. And everybody else just sees an > >>irritating blond. >> > > > > > >Mainly the bad "everybodys." Terreis, Iolaus and David stand out to me as > >among the early folks who admired Gabs. > > > Gee, there's three! Don't forget also the guy in Bottle or Purity. And > eventually, Aphrodite. Mostly Gabrielle just got ignored--who's gonna > notice her when Xena's in the room? >> I responded to that in another post, so I'll save my fingers here. > >> > >>I don't see dying and giving up as fulfilling self-actualization as a > >>warrior for good or for anything. >> > > >> > >No doubt many folks hated AFIN for the same reason. I don't think they'd > >make fine distinctions because of the reason. > > > > > >-- Ife > > > The reason is germane. It is the whole crux of the difference. There was > no greater good being served in Xena giving up and dying in Fates. >> I responded to that in another post as well. Bottom line, there will always be disagreement over what's a "good" reason to die, kill or go along. For some, the "greater good" begins with being true to one's self or an ideal, doing what feels right personally. For others, the "greater good" may be tied to the number of others you intentionally or inadvertently help. Still others will argue there's no such thing as an absolute "greater good." > The Xena who sacrifices herself for those souls in FIN is absolutely the > woman whom we've watched returning to her humanity over the last six > years. It is perfectly in character and perfectly appropriate for a hero > to die for the sake of others. That's like uh...what MAKES a hero a hero. > That's what all those stories are about--the human who transcends the fear > of their own mortality and is willing to die for some greater good. And > one very common example of the Greater Good presented in XWP is to save > the weak and helpless, to liberate them from their oppressor. >> As you know, I thought AFIN was a fitting resolution -- for Xena. I do not think every hero *has* to die to be a hero, even though willing to do so. My problem with some of the criticism is precisely that AFIN was seen as sending out some universal message about vengeance and sacrifice, as opposed to what seemed "right" for the character. I was okay with those who felt "the love" (in general and/or between X&G) dictated that Xena live, because at least they based it on what in *their* view had become the "real" story. And, no, I don't want to argue that point, especially since I personally believe the main story was Xena's quest to give her all and her best. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:09:25 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Peekabo, I see you! On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:49, KTL wrote: (snippity) > No, that's backwards. What's in our heads is because of what she's done > onscreen, not regardless of it. > > What we saw on screen built up the reality of the character we expect to > see when we watch a Xena ep. And yeah, we all interpret her differently. > But there is no denying what is actually on the screen and actually in the > dialogue. Interpretations of these vary. But the images and the words > exist as objective reality. Oops. Careful, KT. I think you're channeling... me. 8) (snippity snippity chop chop chop) > Xena had indeed washed her hands of the whole problem. That is undeniable. > It's there on the screen. And it's also undeniable that since there's no > greater good issue and since Xena is perfectly healthy and fit (or at > least not hurt enough to make a difference for Xena) that it's the only > time in the series that she makes that response to people who want to see > her dead. > > Though I have to say, I DO enjoy your "It was purposely made so bad to > make the regular grrl's relationship look so good" argument. I just LOVE > creativity. > > KT > SMILE That crossed my mind too. With all due respect to lfe, that argument could be used to justify *anything*. Even Fishpaste. ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:24:47 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:29, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snip) > > Now, leaving out Caesar (who deserves to be left out if only for his evil > > > > haircut, besides which he was nearly as annoying as... errrm, we know > > who), ya got Callisto, Meg, Ares and Ephiny. Not exactly trailer trash. > > The two greatest villains on Xena (many would say the two greatest > > villains on TV), and the favourite Amazon. I think I'd give their > > opnions due weight. You're not suggesting, are you, that being 'bad' > > somehow means they have no judgement? ;) > > > > And who are you stacking up against them? Miss Red Shirt of the week > > whose > > > > only function was to conveniently die in Gabs arms, a visiting guest from > > another show, and a wimpy hero out of someone else's biblical myth. ;) > > >> > > As I recall, Ephiny wasn't wasn't initially fond of Xena either, while Meg > thought Joxer was the gods' gift to women. You've supported my > point that the "irritating" thing was consistent from key "baddies" like > Caesar, Ares and Callisto (and later Alti). Perhaps it carries more weight > for some folks because of that, but it doesn't negate the favorable > responses of a variety of other characters. Nor should we forget that > these baddies disliked Gabs for precisely the reasons that Xena valued her > -- as a reminder not to succumb to the baddies' ways. But you see, the baddies - aka Ares, Callisto, Alti, yadda yadda - were precisely what made XWP such a fun series to watch. Not to forget Xena's dark side. So, my dear lfe, you quote all the boring goodies you like, I know who I'll be paying attention to. :) > KT said: > > >>I don't see dying and giving up as fulfilling self-actualization as a > > >>warrior for good or for anything. >> > > > > > > >No doubt many folks hated AFIN for the same reason. I don't think > > > they'd make fine distinctions because of the reason. > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > That's a red herring, lfe!! Yes many folks *did* hate FIN because it > > was the final and Xena died permantly in it. And most of them didn't > > seem to give a toss about the reason. Or, put it another way, no reason > > would have > > > > been good enough for them. > > > > But that's irrelevant to WFC. For KT I think, and for me, there was not > > *any* good reason for Xena to allow herself to be killed in WFC. >> > > First, I saw as much dislike for Xena's reason for dying in AFIN as in WFC. > Indeed, the anger was even greater because of the permanent consequences of > what many saw as senseless, perplexing, injust, and/or supportive of > vengeance. Oh, *much* more anger. But that was because (IMO) of factors completely unrelated to the validity of the reasons for Xena staying dead, and much more related to the consequences. That is to say, that in FIN, Xena ended up dead ('permanently') and separated from Gabs, and for many fans, *no* reason, not even saving the universe, would have been good enough for that. In WFC, on the other hand, Xena and Gabs ended up alive and together, and given that ending I have the impression that most of those same fans really couldn't have cared less in WFC if Xena had just chomped too much nutbread and let Jules baby crucify her just for the heck of it. > Second, it's completely subjective as to whether we agree with > the "reasons" given for someone's sacrificing themselves. I don't see it > as a "red herring" to point out double standards for determining which > point of view of more "reasonable." > > -- Ife We were discussing WFC. Red herring to bring FIN into it. IMO. But since you have, reflect on this (which KT has already pointed out): In WFC, Xena let herself be passively crucified with nothing more than the weaselly Caesar's word for it (which she must have known damn well he'd break) to lay off Gabrielle. Not very convincing. Would you buy a used chariot from this man? In FIN, Xena went down fighting (rather than just commit hara-kiri which would have been just as effective in rendering her dead but no way would that have been in character), she killed Yodoshi, and then she stayed dead to 'redeem' the 40,000 souls. All objectives achieved and no loose ends or Caesars left dangling. Every other time Xena got killed (or nearly killed) - e.g. Destiny, Ides, The Way, The Greater Good - it was not voluntary. It was imposed on her by an enemy who temporarily had the upper hand. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:25:41 EST From: Brule31x63@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] When the Farts Collide I'm a sucker for `When Fates Collide`; it's one of my favorite episodes. I'm a sucker for posts by KT, she's very high in my list of favorite Xener commentators. Naturally, coward that I am, I've stayed out of this discussion. What's more, if I enter a discussion in the near future, it will be one that both KT and I like. Nonetheless, I can never pass up on an opportunity to explain something by reference to a completely scalene interpretation which hasn't so far appeared. KT writes, of Xena's decision to die in `Fates`: > The reason is germane. It is the whole crux of the difference. There was > no greater good being served in Xena giving up and dying in Fates. > Nobody else was saved because she did that. In order to restore the real > world, she needed to stay alive and figure out how to do that, for ALL the > lives that were altered by Caesar's actions. But..what? It's too much > trouble? She's got the vapors? Who knows? And I completely agree. Which is why Fates is a great episode. It's the only episode where we see the essential Xena, untempered by Hercules, Lao Ma, Salmoneus or Gabrielle. Thus, in such a universe the existential truth will hit Xena squarely. She will succumb to the Sickness Unto Death in Fear and Trembling, to not coin some cool phrases... She's not in touch with the Greater Good. It's WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. So, imagining that she cannot understand the workings of the universe, she must suicide. The following is the passage that explains the need for `Fates` in the XWP canon just as it explains the need for Hope to turn out bad in `Maternal Instincts` and for Gabrielle to be dragged to death. (I've rehearsed this argument mucho with Gabfundies, so its fun to cast KT in the Xenafundie light by using it when the tables were turned as they were in `Fates`. I hope everyone understands that I have rather more goodwill and Thanksgiving just now than I did when arguing with the Jerry Falwellite Gabfundies back in the day) Ahem, where was I, oh, yes, the passage: "Long-suffering is like an emerald whose colour never varies. For no temptation can overpower long-suffering, which always gleams with a green and constant light; and whoso strives against it, it wins each time the honour and the palm." Queste del Saint Graal Once Xena dies on the cross and threatens to storm Heaven while dead. (`Fallen Angel` That's tempered Xena. Untempered Xena still receives martyrdom and suffering and, of course, is restored when Gabrielle destroys the entire universe to save her. Pretty, pretty. Gabrielle's destruction of the universe is completely justified *because* false Xena allowed herself to die in `When Fates Collide`. That's how wrong the Xena of Fates was, but then, so it should be, IMO... (of course) Suffering is good. Cleanthes In pity for my sufferings dire Scorch me, Zeus, with heavenly fire! Blow on me with thy breath divine -- Serve me up with vinegar and brine. (Aristophanes the Wasps, translated by David Barrett) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:39:32 -0500 From: "Ribaud, Lynn" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] No, this is NOT about When Fates Collide KTL writes: > ... (I don't know if in Wagner's > Ring there are > dead bodies around Brunhilda on her rock--but I know there > are dead bodies > around Cinderella's castle.) It's been a while since I last went through the Cycle, but I don't recall mention of bodies. It may well be that no one else knew of Brunnhilde's rock -- Siegfried was told of it by the Forest Bird after he'd gotten the dragon's (i.e., Fafnir's) blood on his hand and then licked it off. Lynn Lynn Ribaud ribaud@bnl.gov ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:05:14 -0500 From: "bookdaft" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Tarzan & Lucy - One Last Time My only comment about the probable final episode of Tarzan is: It took them 8 episodes to unleash Lucy and her character. What a waste. bd ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #351 **************************************