From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #350 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, November 24 2003 Volume 03 : Number 350 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] OAAA (was Re: <>) [IfeRae@aol.] Re: [chakram-refugees] OAAA (was Re: <>) ["Kym Taborn] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re: Cousin Liz's post ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The passing wind of fates [KTL >) In a message dated 11/22/2003 8:50:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, ktaborn@lightspeed.net writes: > The third act is 11 minutes of everything the basic hardcore nutball > wanted. > It's cream of condensed XWP. It's poetic and very clever. It is very > post-modern in that it has a character quoting dialogue that was cut from > the episode they are alluding too. > By "cut," do you mean what folks felt was missing (e.g., trust, forgiveness, sensitive chats) from the rift eps? Or do you mean literally "cut" -- originally in scripts, but left out? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:25:49 -0800 From: "Kym Taborn" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OAAA (was Re: <>) From: > > The third act is 11 minutes of everything the basic hardcore nutball > > wanted. > > It's cream of condensed XWP. It's poetic and very clever. It is very > > post-modern in that it has a character quoting dialogue that was cut from > > the episode they are alluding too. > > > > By "cut," do you mean what folks felt was missing (e.g., trust, forgiveness, > sensitive chats) from the rift eps? Or do you mean literally "cut" -- > originally in scripts, but left out? I mean material that was written, shot, and then cut when in the editing process. It is the subplot in Sins of the Past where Gabrielle is show to have the power of prophecy (she has visions of the future). They cut that all from the episode. Check out the Whoosh.org Xena episode guide for Sins of the Past. The script changes are listed in there: From the guide: More dialogue: [Herodotus says they want her to leave]: "join up with your army and move on." Xena: "I don't have an army." (The townspeople all glance at each other curiously. Is this the Xena?) Hecuba: "Of course she doesn't. That's why she befriended us. She wants to recruit our young men for the slaughter." Gabrielle: "Mother, that's not fair. You're not giving her a chance." Herodotus: "Gabrielle, hold your tongue." Gabrielle starts to protest, and Xena says she plans to move on anyway. [Gab begs Xena to take her with her]. "Xena gives this hyper kid a bemused look." [Gab says she was born to do so much more]. "I could be very valuable to you." Xena (amused): "How could you be valuable to me?" Gabrielle: "I've studied the stars, spoken with philosophers and I have the gift of prophecy." Xena: "Then you know already I'm not taking you with me." Gabrielle: "Oh, please Xena, I know I'm just a silly, innocent girl, but I don't want to be." Xena: "Don't be in such a hurry to lose your innocence. Once it's gone, it's gone forever." Gab: "But I want so much to be like you." (Xena eyes her with disdain): "Like me? Why? Look at all you've got in your life. A home, a mother, a father, a nice guy who wants to marry you. Don't be a fool. You don't want to be me." Gab: "I guess you're right. I got it pretty good here. (beat) Where are you headed now?" As Xena moves toward the door, she says: "Goodbye, Gabrielle." [I don't remember her saying Gabrielle's name on the show until Dreamworker, did she?] === what aired was: ISc.1 G: "That thing you did with the hoop-- That was amazing. Where did you get that? Did you make it yourself? And that kick you do-- You've got to teach me--" Herodotus: "Xena, we'd like you move on." G: "Move on? Father, she should rest here until her wound is healed." Herodotus: "Daughter, hush. We don't want any trouble with you, Xena. We know your reputation. We just want you to leave." G: "But, Father, she saved--" X: "It's all right. I plan to move on, anyway." Herodotus: "Don't take too long." Perdicus: "Let's go, Gabrielle." G: "Hey, just because we're betrothed, doesn't mean you can boss me around. I want to stay and talk to Xena. You've got to take me with you, and teach me everything you know. You can't leave me here." X: "Why?" G: "Did you see the guy they want me to marry?" X: "He looks like a gentle soul-- that's rare in a man." G: "It's not the gentle part I have a problem with. It's the dull, stupid part. Xena, I'm not cut out for this village life. I was born to do so much more." X: "I travel alone." G: "So, where are you headed now?" X: "Amphipolis." G: "That's in Thrace, isn't it? I love to study maps and place names. So, what route do you usually take?" X: "Don't even think about it." G: "What?" X: "Following me-- You don't want to make me mad now, do you?" === The dialogue in One Against An Army: G: [Coughs] [Xena attempts telekinesis, fails, then destroys vase in frustration.] G: "Help me." X: "Hey. Hey. I'm here." G: "Xena." X: "Yes?" G: "You've got to take me with you-- teach me everything you know. You can't leave me here in Poteidaia. I wanna go with you. I've studied the stars-- spoken with philosophers-- and I have the gift of prophecy. I can be very valuable to you. Take me with you. I want so much to be like you." X: "And I want to be like you." [Cries] ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:29:44 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide In a message dated 11/22/2003 8:06:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:02, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 11/21/2003 7:02:21 AM Central Standard Time, > > > >fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > >>In SOP, Xena realizes that remaining a warrior means that she can still > >>be good. And stills save good people from bad people. Gabrielle is not > >>particularly part of this at this time. Gab just uses her as her ticket > >>out of Poteidia. (Heh heh heh) >> > > > >Did I see someone refer to you as a "stubborn old coot" in another post? > >Tsk tsk. Can't imagine how she ... or he ... could come up with something > >like that. > > *Did* you see that or did you just make it up? 8-) >> Both. Heh heh heh. > > (Do they have coots in Alaska? Didn't it oughta be 'moose' or something? > > Are mooses - meese - whatever, stubborn? Probably...) >> All's I know is, there's at least one old coot. > Terreis, Iolaus and David stand out to me as > >among the early folks who admired Gabs. > > Now, leaving out Caesar (who deserves to be left out if only for his evil > > haircut, besides which he was nearly as annoying as... errrm, we know who), > ya got Callisto, Meg, Ares and Ephiny. Not exactly trailer trash. > The two greatest villains on Xena (many would say the two greatest villains > on TV), and the favourite Amazon. I think I'd give their opnions due > weight. You're not suggesting, are you, that being 'bad' somehow means > they have no judgement? ;) > > And who are you stacking up against them? Miss Red Shirt of the week whose > > only function was to conveniently die in Gabs arms, a visiting guest from > another show, and a wimpy hero out of someone else's biblical myth. ;) >> As I recall, Ephiny wasn't wasn't initially fond of Xena either, while Meg thought Joxer was the gods' gift to women. You've supported my point that the "irritating" thing was consistent from key "baddies" like Caesar, Ares and Callisto (and later Alti). Perhaps it carries more weight for some folks because of that, but it doesn't negate the favorable responses of a variety of other characters. Nor should we forget that these baddies disliked Gabs for precisely the reasons that Xena valued her -- as a reminder not to succumb to the baddies' ways. KT said: > >>I don't see dying and giving up as fulfilling self-actualization as a > >>warrior for good or for anything. >> > > > > >No doubt many folks hated AFIN for the same reason. I don't think they'd > >make fine distinctions because of the reason. > > > >-- Ife > > That's a red herring, lfe!! Yes many folks *did* hate FIN because it was > the final and Xena died permantly in it. And most of them didn't seem to > give a toss about the reason. Or, put it another way, no reason would have > > been good enough for them. > > But that's irrelevant to WFC. For KT I think, and for me, there was not > *any* good reason for Xena to allow herself to be killed in WFC. >> First, I saw as much dislike for Xena's reason for dying in AFIN as in WFC. Indeed, the anger was even greater because of the permanent consequences of what many saw as senseless, perplexing, injust, and/or supportive of vengeance. Second, it's completely subjective as to whether we agree with the "reasons" given for someone's sacrificing themselves. I don't see it as a "red herring" to point out double standards for determining which point of view of more "reasonable." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 18:21:19 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Cousin Liz's post If I had my druthers this is what I would like to see on the DVD's. Now before I give my list I think everyone had great ideas these are just additions: 1. The missing fight scene from Gurkhan (I would love to see Gabby knock the stuffing out of someone without Xena being around). 2. Commentary for ROC and Alex Tydings for Little Problems. 3. Commentary on In Sickness and In Hell. That's one of my favorite comedies. I think LL was pretty brave as a star to allow her character to be so put upon. I think it showed that Lucy doesn't have a lot of ego about her looks or a fear of looking foolish. I also love ROC's drooling Gabby. 4. You know everyone hate Fishtix's but I would like to hear RT explain what he was thinking when he decided to make that episode. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:35:13 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] No, this is NOT about When Fates Collide No Ife, I'm done discussing Farts for this year. I only got lured into it because a number of people said they wanted to hear my arguments. I just can't ignore taunts and challenges FOREVER. Grin. But my penance is over, I've made my quota of converts this time around, I'm moving on to talking about the good/great eps of XWP. I'm just not interested in dwelling on the depressing negatives of the show. (Except when pulling a "neener neener neener" towards certain stubborn, close-minded people who just HAVE to have the last word.) I'm SURE you'll be replying to this...grin. > > Yes. Xena always admired Gabrielle's goodness. It's one of the big jokes > > of the series, actually. How Xena sees such an amazing, good character > > in Gabrielle, one to emulate and treasure. And everybody else just sees an > > irritating blond. >> > > > Mainly the bad "everybodys." Terreis, Iolaus and David stand out to me as > among the early folks who admired Gabs. Gee, there's three! Don't forget also the guy in Bottle or Purity. And eventually, Aphrodite. Mostly Gabrielle just got ignored--who's gonna notice her when Xena's in the room? A truism that was pointed out so deliciously in A Day In The Life, when Minya says to her, "And you must be...uh...um... er...Lariel!" Renee does such a nice short burn when Allison says that. Renee is SO good at physical comedy. And of course, the running gag of Gabrielle generally only being noticed as a pain in the butt also surfaced as an amusing disclaimer in The Ring. "Gabrielle's popularity surged during the making of this motion picture." So we can add in Brunhilda and Beowulf also. Oh, and of course Eli and Joxer. (Though her relationship with Joxer was VERY complex, on the whole he was almost as besotted as Xena in putting Gabrielle up on a pedestal. ) So there ya go--at least nine people appreciated her. Nine in 134 hours of story...grin. And not just really bad guys had problems with her. Ephiny, Autolycus and in a slightly different way Tara had their own issues with her also. There's also a line in the Valkyries--one of them laments all the good men dying to get to Gabrielle, and says something about how she's just an "ordinary woman". This discussion says the people are after Gabrielle and not the ring. I don't agree with that. Precisely because nobody knows who Gabrielle is. And unlike Cinderella, there's no kingdom or castle involved for the one who wakes her up. (I don't know if in Wagner's Ring there are dead bodies around Brunhilda on her rock--but I know there are dead bodies around Cinderella's castle.) At any rate, I bet in Valkyrie, they ARE after the power of the ring, not the woman holding it. Now had it been the famous (infamous) Xena on that rock, then a quest for the woman would have been much more plausible to me. And I betcha Ares would have been giving Gabrielle a run for her money to get to her. Actually, I've always thought that Xena being the "sleeping beauty" and Gabrielle coming to save her would have made a very fine ep also. Just because it would have stood their usual roles on their heads--and that's always fun. > > > > I don't see dying and giving up as fulfilling self-actualization as a > > warrior for good or for anything. >> > > > > No doubt many folks hated AFIN for the same reason. I don't think they'd > make fine distinctions because of the reason. > > > -- Ife The reason is germane. It is the whole crux of the difference. There was no greater good being served in Xena giving up and dying in Fates. Nobody else was saved because she did that. In order to restore the real world, she needed to stay alive and figure out how to do that, for ALL the lives that were altered by Caesar's actions. But..what? It's too much trouble? She's got the vapors? Who knows? In FIN, by staying dead she liberates those souls so they can attain a state of grace that her actions had denied them. As she's done through the whole series, she steps in to make atonement to those she damaged as Evil Xena. Her actions here are no different from any other ep where she makes atonement. But a clock is ticking in this one and she's gotta do what she's gotta do NOW. This is not to say that it many not be "undone" later. Once somebody, probably some godly entity, figures out how to save the souls AND bring Xena back to her physical life without changing that, well then we got our movie. The Xena who sacrifices herself for those souls in FIN is absolutely the woman whom we've watched returning to her humanity over the last six years. It is perfectly in character and perfectly appropriate for a hero to die for the sake of others. That's like uh...what MAKES a hero a hero. That's what all those stories are about--the human who transcends the fear of their own mortality and is willing to die for some greater good. And one very common example of the Greater Good presented in XWP is to save the weak and helpless, to liberate them from their oppressor. Xena of seasons...hmmm one through four and possibly five would never have made that choice. She did not have enough love in her heart for others to make that choice. As Lucy says in the commentary, it was impossible for Xena to turn her back on those guys. What kind of life would she have if she had walked away? If she had shirked her personal responsiblity to those souls, she'd no longer be a hero. Thus dismissing six years of the show presenting her that way. People who run away from their responsibilities are not called heroes. Had she not chosen to stay dead to save those souls, we would have been left with our hero being shown up as a coward in the last ep. And left with that image. In FIN, Xena died a hero for the Greater Good. And the main theme of the series, her redemption quest, came to full fruition. As is validated in Between The Lines, when she's reincarnated in her next life as the Mother of Peace. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:49:06 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Peekabo, I see you! I'm not really talking about Fates--I'm talking about general concepts of dramatic series TV viewing. But since Ife is STILL talking about Fates, (not that she's a stubborn old coot, or anything...) the example is here on the page to use. > > And yeah--when I tune into Xena: Warrior Princess, I DO want to see Xena: > > Warrior Princess. I don't think that's unreasonable. > > > > I absolutely agree. Fates was not the ep either of us necessarily wanted. > The difference is, the Warrior Princess I saw in it was believable to me, but > not to you. Each of us has ample "evidence" for our perspectives, based on > what we believed we saw. We can discuss our differences, but it won't change > that "our" Xena is what's in our heads, regardless of what she does onscreen. > > -- Ife No, that's backwards. What's in our heads is because of what she's done onscreen, not regardless of it. What we saw on screen built up the reality of the character we expect to see when we watch a Xena ep. And yeah, we all interpret her differently. But there is no denying what is actually on the screen and actually in the dialogue. Interpretations of these vary. But the images and the words exist as objective reality. (Excluding the ones that wound up on the Avid hard drive--at least until they get incorporated into a director's cut ep.) As an English prof bud of mine always says, in writing there's always the reality that "Author's intent does not equal reader's response". Certainly movies and plays have the same inherent "problem". But they create a much more restricted presentation. Because we literally see the characters and the environment they operate in. We don't have to make up how everybody and everything looks and sounds. We not only read their words, we hear them and we see the body language they use when communicating also. This still of course, leaves interpretations of the "text" wide open. That is what art is. And why art is so valuable to humans. But filmed images make a more specific board to bounce our impressions off of. We "see" the board in movies, we don't have to imagine it. To use your example of talking about what we saw, there is no denying that Xena gives herself up to her enemies and was willing to die solely for their agenda in Fates. No matter what kind of rationalization one may make up for her doing this, it doesn't change the fact that she did. And there is no denying that the dialogue when they return validates that she had given up when she says to Gabrielle, "You brought the world back to us." Xena had indeed washed her hands of the whole problem. That is undeniable. It's there on the screen. And it's also undeniable that since there's no greater good issue and since Xena is perfectly healthy and fit (or at least not hurt enough to make a difference for Xena) that it's the only time in the series that she makes that response to people who want to see her dead. Though I have to say, I DO enjoy your "It was purposely made so bad to make the regular grrl's relationship look so good" argument. I just LOVE creativity. KT SMILE ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:21:06 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The passing wind of fates > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 00:31, KTL wrote: > > (snippity snippity snip snip SNIP) > > > > Fates to me was a schmaltzy, sappy, hysterically dramatic, totally > > illogical fop of an ep. And there's far too many GREAT eps in XWP > > to suffer through this trite, degrading to Xena's character nonsense ever > > again. How's that for a different angle? I know just where to file it, > > too. > > > > KT > > Yowza! "You sure you used enough dynamite, Butch?" > > ;) > > cr > Pretty good, huh? NOw Thel, there are times when one can never use too much dynamite. Some formations are just so stubborn that there is no recouse but to blow them to Illusia, where they can sing and dance their way into oblivion. KT polishing my fingernails and embracing the explosion ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #350 **************************************