From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #348 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, November 22 2003 Volume 03 : Number 348 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 4 [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] The passing wind of fates [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] The passing wind of fates [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 04:01:30 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide > aemoses@comcast.net writes: > > << xena was at the end of her tether when she met gabrielle not because she > was > a woman without passion or fervor but because she was a woman in search of a > redemption and meaning she couldn't find; she was a woman with an excess of > passion. to me, that's a definining characteristic of xena that no > loom-editing would or could remove. how she expressed her passions might be > changed, but her passion and her consumate skills as a warrior and commander > would not themselves be altered. >> > > I'm thinking now that Fates Xena was indeed a lot like Reformed Xena > at the beginning of SOP. Well, except for the fact that Xena in SOP decides to continue to fight (as a full-fledged warrior) for the greater good. And in Fates she gives up and dies, leaving the world in the hands of truly corrupt and evil people. Both had recently learned something about > who they were and/or wanted to be, which completely changed their > concept about the purpose of -- the *meaning* in -- their lives. > Neither was quite sure what to do about it. They saw no reason to go > on as they had (as a warrior in one case, as the Empress in the > other). KT will thump my head for saying this, but in both cases > Gabrielle was the vehicle for Xena's being able to express her passion > as she was *meant* to. > In SOP, Xena realizes that remaining a warrior means that she can still be good. And stills save good people from bad people. Gabrielle is not particularly part of this at this time. Gab just uses her as her ticket out of Poteidia. (Heh heh heh) In Fates she decides to give up and die. And let her passion die with her. > I can't claim to have appreciated the love angle as Sophia (and > probably most Gabfans) did in the beginning. For me, it started out > as a cute (and sometimes boring) sidelight to Xena's quest to be a > warrior for good. It's not until I realized that the love was > integral to Xena's ability to achieve her warrior quest at its highest > level, that I began to appreciate Gabrielle's role in that. > Gabrielle wasn't a distraction or competition for that quest, but the > personification of love's inspiration, the source for much of its > meaning (in Xena's love for her, in her articulation, in her example > and ideals). Yes. Xena always admired Gabrielle's goodness. It's one of the big jokes of the series, actually. How Xena sees such an amazing, good character in Gabrielle, one to emulate and treasure. And everybody else just sees an irritating blond. > > Now that you've led me to compare Fates with SOP, I think it's > particularly fitting that Gabs would be the one to give Xena another > chance to be her "true" self. It was "accidental" both times, yet > apparently destined. For some fans, the soulmate "love" in that theme > is sufficient in itself. For me, the beauty is that it was also > re-established in Fates as inextricably bound with Xena's on-going > self-actualization as a warrior for good. I don't see dying and giving up as fulfilling self-actualization as a warrior for good or for anything. Which is probably the main > reason I can accept the choices Xena and Gabrielle ultimately made in > AFIN. > > -- Ife Xena and Gabrielle acted perfectly in character in FIN. But not in Fates. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 04:10:02 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> Well that's enough for me this year on (as md refers to it) Farts Colluding. I have to admit that part of my delight in harpooning Fates is exactly because some people get absolutely OUTRAGED when somone talks against it. You are "allowed" to hate many eps and of course the Fates lovers hate many eps with a vengeance. But if YOU hate FATES--you are either a heartless bitch or a total homophobe or a Gabhater or at the very least, something to be shunned in polite company. Now I saw NONE of that in our exchanges here. But I remember discussing this in the past on the old Xenaverse list and stirring up many thinly disguised accusations on my character. It might me right proud of myself. Alright--I'm taking myself off this thread. I think I'll go read the Tarzan posts for a nice change. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:02:02 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 4 In a message dated 11/21/2003 5:47:10 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > And yeah--when I tune into Xena: Warrior Princess, I DO want to see Xena: > Warrior Princess. I don't think that's unreasonable. > I absolutely agree. Fates was not the ep either of us necessarily wanted. The difference is, the Warrior Princess I saw in it was believable to me, but not to you. Each of us has ample "evidence" for our perspectives, based on what we believed we saw. We can discuss our differences, but it won't change that "our" Xena is what's in our heads, regardless of what she does onscreen. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:02:01 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide Good grief! I can't believe Fates is resurrected once again -- and in such a big way! I thought maybe AOL had cursed ... um, I mean blessed ... me with duplicate KT posts, but no, it's your outbox spewing forth once again from hibernation. In a message dated 11/21/2003 5:49:09 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Are you saying "Fates" contradicts your > >interpretation of that line? Do you believe Xena was referring only to the > >crucifixion when she said that? > > > >-- Ife > > Well yes. She's saying that she NEEDS to be crucified by Caesar. Because > he was the catalyst for her whole life and what he did made her the woman > she became. I don't buy it myself, but apparently Fugate does. > > KT >> Ah. I took that differently to mean that the crucifixion was *one* of the threads in the "true" fabric of her life. It couldn't be eliminated without changing who she became, nor was it the *only* thread determining that. Obviously Tapert gave much importance to it in a symbolic way -- to remind us of both the treachery and greed that produced Evil Xena, as well as the pain and sacrifice of Reformed Xena. However, love was equally shown as being a critical (perhaps *the*) thread, which always enabled Xena to rise above the evils of the first crucifixion. Xena's saying "I love you" as she dies on the cross in Fates is to me a sign that love (at least in Xena's mind) was what defined her more than Caesar. Whatever else one can say about Fates, "everything happens precisely as it should" focused much more on the supremacy of the love Fugate emphasized (too much for some folks) throughout the ep. But unlike idealized stories where the bad stuff gets ignored or is treated as irrelevant, Fates does not disregard the trials we'd rather do without, yet have an undeniable role in shaping -- even giving more significance to -- our triumphs. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:02:07 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> In a message dated 11/21/2003 7:11:06 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > I have to admit that part of my delight in harpooning Fates is exactly > because some people get absolutely OUTRAGED when somone talks against it. > You are "allowed" to hate many eps and of course the Fates lovers hate > many eps with a vengeance. But if YOU hate FATES--you are either a > heartless bitch or a total homophobe or a Gabhater or at the very least, > something to be shunned in polite company. > > Now I saw NONE of that in our exchanges here. But I remember discussing > this in the past on the old Xenaverse list and stirring up many thinly > disguised accusations on my character. > You forgot "stubborn old coot," which *might* have been cast at your character on this list by another ... um ... by a stubborn old coot. - -- "Who, me?" Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:02:04 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The passing wind of fates In a message dated 11/21/2003 5:32:18 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > In Valkyrie, she keeps getting clues to her past life with Gabrielle, and > Fates copies this also. But in Valkyrie, this makes sense since they had > LIVED that life and it's there in Xena's memory banks. Unlike Fates where > nobody lived that life and so couldn't possibly remember it. >> Yes, and that to me is the critical difference. Xena *was not the same* without those experiences, even when she remembered some of them. Yes, her fundamental traits were there, but it is our experiences that shape how those play out. I won't argue that Fugate was "right" in her interpretation of what Xena would be like. I am arguing that I see it as perfectly logical that she would be different in some way that isn't like the Xena we were used to seeing. > > I think the main difference between Valkyrie and Fates is totally > encapsulated in one simple line of dialogue. When the main Valkyrie tries > to keep Xena from going to Gabrielle and growls at her about how it makes > her sick to see how soft Xena has become, Xena replies, "Softness and > weakness are two different things". I wish someone had made that clear to > Fugate. >> Again, you saw "weakness" where I saw the Xena in Fates using love to triumph over a "wrong" life she could never change no matter how hard she fought. > > Of course, Valkyrie is not perfect either. And had this set-up and > dialogue not been consistent with the presentation of the main character > for the last six years, and thus not allowed Lucy to find a real, true, > believable "Xena as amnesiac" take, then I'd be saying things like, > "Waitaminute! If Gabrielle is supposed to be the thing that Xena prizes > the most, then she should be the woman she was before she met Gabrielle. > Why isn't she now the stoic but determined woman that Herc had started on > her turnaround? Why is she suffering from TOTAL amnesia?"> Frankly, I found the "logic" for Amnesiac Xena to be far more problematic than what I saw in Fates. I don't think anybody had a clue what "losing the essence" of herself meant, and that Lucy winged it the best way she could. I accepted it because that's what Lucy did, because she *is* Xena to me. Even when she feels she must adapt to something she questions, she does it as she thinks Xena would, and I believe she would be insistent about not doing something she absolutely believed undermined the essence of the character. Bottom line for me, if she did it, then it was or became what Xena would do, regardless of how it matched the Xena in my head. > > Actually, good as it was, I was wondering that anyway. She didn't lose > just the influence of Gabrielle in her life, she lost EVERYTHING. Which > says to me that what she lost was not just the awareness of Gabrielle but > the loss of her whole sense of self. >> Yeah, well, I snorted when Ghost Gabs appeared to Xena. It's like, "Hmmm, how can we keep the 'eternal soulmates' thing and at the same time make sure it's shown as integral to the 'essence' of what Xena lost? Why don't we make Gabs like a little fly magically whispering in Xena's ear? That way it'll look like Xena still has the essence of what Gabs meant even though we implied she lost it. Yes! The best of both worlds!" > But, none of this matters, because this ep was just so GOOD. And also, > The > Ring Arc was framed as a fairy tale and thus magic does happen. And as > with any fairy tale, the moral is more important than absolute logic and > reality. That is what fairy tales are like, there's always a touch of > magic and so the story telling line inherently has more slack in it for > things that would be illogical in non fairy tale tales. >> I'm not big on fairy tales, any more than I am on romances. I like science fiction, tho that's a personal preference that has nothing to do with judgements about the "logic" of any of 'em. I'm still amazed I got so caught up in XWP's fantasy world, which has elements of all of that. I have to suspend my disbelief in each case, so I don't hurt my brain distinguishing between which deserves more slack. I had to give The Ring trilogy a lot more slack than Fates or some other eps. Plots aside, my liking them might've come down to appreciating the costumes Lucy wore, which were far superior to that tent dress in the equally improbable Return to Chin eps that I seldom rewatch. > Of course, another excellent ep that took up a Xena who had forgotten her > past was Chakram. And again, Lucy found a presentation of Xena as an > amnesiac that was valid, true and totally recognizable as Xena. And even > though in Chakram she was an innocent, child-like woman who abhorred > violence, a total antithesis of the real Xena, the script and dialogue > didn't detract from her character's dignity and gravitas in any way. >> Again, I accepted this Xena because that's what Lucy showed her as, same as I did with Fates. Keeps things simple for my simple mind. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:02:08 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide In a message dated 11/21/2003 7:02:21 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > In SOP, Xena realizes that remaining a warrior means that she can still be > good. And stills save good people from bad people. Gabrielle is not > particularly part of this at this time. Gab just uses her as her ticket > out of Poteidia. (Heh heh heh) >> Did I see someone refer to you as a "stubborn old coot" in another post? Tsk tsk. Can't imagine how she ... or he ... could come up with something like that. > > Yes. Xena always admired Gabrielle's goodness. It's one of the big jokes > of the series, actually. How Xena sees such an amazing, good character > in Gabrielle, one to emulate and treasure. And everybody else just sees an > irritating blond. >> Mainly the bad "everybodys." Terreis, Iolaus and David stand out to me as among the early folks who admired Gabs. > > > > >Now that you've led me to compare Fates with SOP, I think it's > >particularly fitting that Gabs would be the one to give Xena another > >chance to be her "true" self. It was "accidental" both times, yet > >apparently destined. For some fans, the soulmate "love" in that theme > >is sufficient in itself. For me, the beauty is that it was also > >re-established in Fates as inextricably bound with Xena's on-going > >self-actualization as a warrior for good. > > > I don't see dying and giving up as fulfilling self-actualization as a > warrior for good or for anything. >> > > No doubt many folks hated AFIN for the same reason. I don't think they'd make fine distinctions because of the reason. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:02:10 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide In a message dated 11/21/2003 6:44:24 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: md said: > >and insipid is the word i've been looking for. gabrielle is insipid, her > >play is insipid, and despite lucy's best efforts, xena is fairly > insipid--in > >the sense of diluted, relatively bland. looks nice on the horsey in the > >leathers and all but. . .she ain't xener. it's not the acting i'm talking > >about but the part, the characterization. blech! > > > > > YES! You GO grrl! > > Exactly. Md says this Xena was insipid, as was much else in the ep. She also says (in a part I snipped) that this Xena is not the stuff her hero was made of. I agree. This was a Xena devoid of that darkness, drive and "edge" that made her such a complicated, compelling and admirable hero, that gave depth to her passion and the feralness we love. Without her "bad" experiences, she was as interesting as any other attractive, energetic, talented, ambitious peasant girl who makes a name for herself and marries well. That's about how she was written in Fates and Lucy played her. Is it interesting to watch someone like that for six years? Probably not, or TPTB wouldn't have put her through all those terrible experiences. Is it interesting to watch someone like that for 40 minutes? Some say yes, some say no. As usual, I'm not arguing over how well Fates was written or whether it should've been shown at all. I'm arguing that the superficiality, the inspidness, the blandness were an excellent reflection of the ep's premise that Xena would *not* have been the warrior we knew, if Caesar had succeeded in robbing her of the experiences that forged her into the absolutely fascinating person we're still arguing about. Ironically, anything less -- or more, in this case -- would've been "pulling the punches." We'd have gotten the Xena we were used to, except for the clothes and setting. Someone "born" a hero, who didn't need all that bad stuff that "made" her into an *interesting* hero. You can say the Xena in Remember Nothing, Chakram or Return of the Valkyrie were somehow still more "characteristic" Xena, that the stories were told better than Fates. You can point to their moments of passion or feistiness. Well, I wouldn't have wanted to watch those Xenas for too long either. But there was enough other stuff going on that I didn't focus that much on how "weird" she was acting. There was usually somebody else in the ep who pushed her to be "herself," was seeking a way to help restore her, or acting as the heroes in her place. In Fates, there was little heroic, outside of gestures like Joxer helping Gabs. There was nothing to prod Xena into being the woman we knew. Fugute relied on the always convenient soulmate thing and Alti to do that, which I suppose were as good as any devices. Still, the overall feeling I got was of an unexciting world without heroes, mainly because *the* hero was missing in action. It hit me in a new way just how different the entire series could've been without the Xena marked by betrayal and rage, not just ambition o fondness for fighting. Whatever gremlin you might've seen on her shoulder pre-Ceasar was nothing in comparison to the devil Reformed Xena battled. I've said before that I thought the superficial romance aspects in Fates were also intentional, in terms of how X&G's love might have been without the depth of their experiences together. I have to thank you for making me focus more on how the same blandness brought out the importance of the experiences that gave depth to Xena as a hero. I can understand where you're both coming from, as I feel strange saying how much I got from what I *didn't* see. Lord knows I'm not trying to change any minds here. I'm only 'splaining why I accept the superficiality of Fates and find it to be a worthwhile (perhaps even brilliant) exploration of the Xena we might've gotten without Caesar as a catalyst for the darkness that made her different from any other hero we'd seen before. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:41:21 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The passing wind of fates On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 00:31, KTL wrote: (snippity snippity snip snip SNIP) > Fates to me was a schmaltzy, sappy, hysterically dramatic, totally > illogical fop of an ep. And there's far too many GREAT eps in XWP > to suffer through this trite, degrading to Xena's character nonsense ever > again. How's that for a different angle? I know just where to file it, > too. > > KT Yowza! "You sure you used enough dynamite, Butch?" ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 15:13:44 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:10, KTL wrote: > Well that's enough for me this year on (as md refers to it) Farts > Colluding. > > I have to admit that part of my delight in harpooning Fates is exactly > because some people get absolutely OUTRAGED when somone talks against it. > You are "allowed" to hate many eps and of course the Fates lovers hate > many eps with a vengeance. But if YOU hate FATES--you are either a > heartless bitch or a total homophobe or a Gabhater or at the very least, > something to be shunned in polite company. You could, of course, try hating One Against an Army for a change. Same scenario, same results. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #348 **************************************