From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #347 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, November 21 2003 Volume 03 : Number 347 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Davis-Anderson Catalog [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] The passing wind of fates [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 4 [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] New Xena Merchandise - 11/20/03 - 2004 CALENDARS have arrived! (fwd) [Sarah Anne Packard ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [KTL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:20:44 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Davis-Anderson Catalog > > Mark B wrote: > > Whaddaya mean days??!!??. We can spend weeks talking about how > > LL runs up stairs in just one scene. Cuts from just one ep > > would keep us yacking for YEARS!! > > And I would be in heaven. I may not get much time to respond > to talks about Xena here, but I do try to eventually read all > of the posts. Maybe there are other mailing lists out there > that still like to talk about Xena episodes, but I haven't > stumbled across them yet. That's why I love this list. > Yeah, this is definitely the best one for discussing eps. Nobody else is doing that regularly like we do here. > So I was wondering... considering our love here for chatting up > Xena ep's, what would be some good ep's for TPTB to highlight > in DVD sets? > I am thrilled that they are doing so much more commentary for season three and beyond. It's a real acknowledgement that there is just so much more depth to season three than to the first two seasons. Season three transformed a pleasant little series into a truly mythic classic and made Xena an iconic character who may well never fade from popular memories. I believe she has joined that band of heros like Robin Hood, Zorro, and Batman for example, who will be rediscovered many times and brought back in new stories for ages to come. > I for one am not much into the comedies as I am the more serious > episodes, so for instance for season 4 I'd love to hear more about > 'Adventures in the Sin Trade', 'Paradise Found' and 'Ides of March', > but could be happy if they passed on episodes like 'In Sickness > and in Hell' or 'Key to the Kingdom'. > I agree. The season four comedies sucked big time to me. I'd also like to have commentary on Past Imperfect, (love Evil Xena and I love Borias--I'd be great to have Martin Csokis do some commentary on that one) and The Way. The Way is so important in Xena's reformation quest. Between the lines would be great too--maybe Claire could do some of that one. I'd love to hear her and Lucy talk and reminisce together--we've never seen that before, not even at cons. I'd like to have the writers and directors talking about their work also, of course. > For season 5 I guess I would pick 'Fallen Angel' for the special > fx, 'Them Bones, Them Bones' because Claire was delicious in that > ep, and 'Antony and Cleopatra'. > I'd Like Antony and Cleopatra for sure, but I'd also like commentary on Chakram, Lyre lyre would be a hoot, Amphipolis Under Siege and any or all of Livia/Eve/Motherhood. If they could slip in God Fearing Child and Eternal Bonds, I'd be very pleased also. Damn, I wish Kevin were around to do some commentary for us also. > For season 6 I'd love to hear more about that dance sequence > between Lucy & Renee in 'Heart of Darkness', and I would be hard > pressed to pick between 'The Rheingold', 'The Ring', and 'The > Return of the Valkyrie.' I want all of the above, plus Old Ares (I'd love to hear RJ talk about that one. Actually, I'd love to hear RJ talk about almost any of the ones he worked onl) God you know, You are There, and Clones. I would pick FIN if we didn't already have it. I've seen cut scenes at cons. I seem to remember that they were mostly raw footage--no music, no polished editing. I saw the Sacrifice ones and another time Fields also showed cut scenes from the Greater Good--after Xena is supposedly dead and Gabrielle is beating up the trees in her grief. It would be nice to "sew" some of these back into the eps, but it would take money and time. It was fascinating to see what Rob put back in FIN, once he was no longer constricted by that artificial 42 minute (was it?) TV episode limit. And of course I'd have to include a > personal favorite of 'When Fates Collide', if only to stir up KT. :) > *sigh* Why am I NEVER left alone to quietly despise that piece of twaddle? Shall I ignore the taunts of the masses? Or shall I suffer the slings of outrageous character assassination, Grand Canyon level plot holes, excrutiatingly vapid dialogue and take a deep breath, hold my nose and leap into the discussion? To Fart or not to Fart? That is the question. Oh that these too, too solid (as in THICK) heads would melt into sudden awareness of just how awful that ep is. OH!--I just remembered that in order to take the bad taste of Fates out of my mouth, after being FORCED to discuss it, I watched the Ring arc--a FAR better telling of a love story between the grrls. And -- I have a post about how much better it is. Boy am I glad you reminded me...I'm sure you will be too once I post it. GRIN Actually, my only joy in talking about Fates is that every time I do, I get posts that say, "Right on sister!" and also posts that say, "By the gods--you're right! That ep DOES suck!" I've gotten five (three of the first, two of the second kind) so far this time. KT > What ep's would you choose? > > -- > Cousin Liz eas01@fast.net ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:31:33 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] The passing wind of fates >Sure, sure, claim you want help, but there's no way you're gonna be able to > >watch "Fates" with any semblance of neutrality. > > > >-- Ife > > > I did that the first time around. << I can just picture you remaining neutral the first time X&G exchanged googoo eyes. No, no, no. The fact that they made GooGoo eyes at each other hardly made me turn a hair. Look, practically nothing in Fates was fresh or original. Just about all of it had been done before, just better, by XWP in the past. You want to see a GREAT use of GooGoo eyes, just watch Return of the Valkyries, when Xena smooches Gabrielle awake. Though Fates copied many elements of the Ring arc, the Ring arc eps present a FAR superior story in my eyes. The Ring arc is among the best of the best of XWP. And when major series themes and ideas were repeated in the Ring eps, they were presented in such a way that they added to the myth, they reinforced it. They didn't negate and subtract from it. In many important ways, Fates is just a simpering, whimpering carbon copy of Return of the Valkyrie. We have the same set-up. Xena is the wife of a king and the past is lost to her. In Valkyrie, she's lost her past because she puts on the ring in order to save Gabrielle. In Fates she's lost her past because Caesar is suddenly more powerful than the Fates. That's the Fates, whom even Zeus acquiesced to. That's Zeus, most powerful of all the gods whom all the other gods acquiesced to because of his great power. We see in God Fearing Child that even Zeus don't mess with the Fates. But in When Fates Collide, a dead mortal can take them and make them do his bidding. Uh-huh. In Return of the Valkyrie, Xena's husband decides to kill her and Fates copies this plot point. But in Valkyrie when Xena's husband tries to kill her, does she meekly agree and let him? No WAY IN HELL. She helps Beowulf and fights her way out of there. She fights the Valkyries on the beach. She stands up to Odin without whimpering and running away. She fights the Valkries again when they try to keep her from saving Gabrielle. And she does all this even though she doesn't even remember or even truly believe that she is a warrior. And even though she doesn't even remember her pirate days and her response to the grievous events in Amphipolis that started her on her downward slide, unlike the Fates Xena who lived through those formative years. In Valkyrie, she keeps getting clues to her past life with Gabrielle, and Fates copies this also. But in Valkyrie, this makes sense since they had LIVED that life and it's there in Xena's memory banks. Unlike Fates where nobody lived that life and so couldn't possibly remember it. And in Valkyrie when it's up to Xena to save Gabrielle, does she whimper and give up because she doesn't remember she's a warrior? Nope. She comes through just like every other ep Xena, except of course, for Fugate's whining, totally unXena Xena. And as I said, if you want to see a great example of non-squiiky GooGoo eyes--just watch Xena's face when she wakes up the little blond kid. She is filled with wonder at what she now remembers. But she also shows sorrow, exasperation and frustration at herself. "I forgot everything", she says with just a touch of shame that she could possibly do that. She touches Gabrielle's face tenderly as her own face crumbles and her eyes fill with tears from relief that she remembers Gabrielle and has her back in her life again. It's a beautiful scene, filled with life affirming, positive and character enhancing love. Now THAT is how to present the grrls in a beautiful Romance story. It puts Xena's cowardly giving up to her enemies and leaving Gabrielle in their hands behavior in Fates absolutely to shame. (Valkyrie was written by Emily Skopov. For me, Skopov was one of the best things about season six-I thought she was the best new writer they brought aboard. I loved all of her eps.) I think the main difference between Valkyrie and Fates is totally encapsulated in one simple line of dialogue. When the main Valkyrie tries to keep Xena from going to Gabrielle and growls at her about how it makes her sick to see how soft Xena has become, Xena replies, "Softness and weakness are two different things". I wish someone had made that clear to Fugate. Of course, Valkyrie is not perfect either. And had this set-up and dialogue not been consistent with the presentation of the main character for the last six years, and thus not allowed Lucy to find a real, true, believable "Xena as amnesiac" take, then I'd be saying things like, "Waitaminute! If Gabrielle is supposed to be the thing that Xena prizes the most, then she should be the woman she was before she met Gabrielle. Why isn't she now the stoic but determined woman that Herc had started on her turnaround? Why is she suffering from TOTAL amnesia?" Actually, good as it was, I was wondering that anyway. She didn't lose just the influence of Gabrielle in her life, she lost EVERYTHING. Which says to me that what she lost was not just the awareness of Gabrielle but the loss of her whole sense of self. And that makes sense to me. Xena has always treasured her freedom to act, to make her own decisions, to be the best warrior she can be. Her sense of self, her core of integrity is surely what she treasures the most. As her decision to stay dead in FIN validates, for Xena, the Greatest Good is taking responsibility for one's actions and choosing to "make things right" for those who have suffered from what you've done to them. Being an honorable person, in other words. And this is what she loses in Valkyrie--herself and her way of living her life. The minute she "remembers" herself, she goes off to save Grinhilda from the fate Evil Xena brought upon her. If the ep wasn't so good, I might also be wondering where Gabrielle got that dress, how Xena and Gabrielle got their regular outfits back, why Gabrielle's hair was still long (surely her short hair could have returned along with her clothes), how Brunhilda shimmered into the ring when her fire self dissolved (and then got out again and became forest mist), how Grinhilda was able to change back just through her own, will (I imagine that she found love in her heart, for Xena. Because Xena came back to save her. And because Xena begs for her forgiveness. [As she's done so many times in the past with other people she's hurt.] And so Grunhilda no longer forsakes all love. Maybe-but THAT'S a sudden new wrinkle. And there's an indication that Brunhilda helps too, since the ring glows like it did when FlameBrunhilda first shimmied into it.) And I always find it amusing when first Xena and then Grinhilda walk casually with just a slight stagger out of the cave that was just the site of a MAJOR explosion, the expended blast of which blew Gabrielle and Beowulf clear across the set. And then of course, at the end, how come Xena has to swim to the Rhine Maiden's pool but Gabrielle can just walk there? But, none of this matters, because this ep was just so GOOD. And also, The Ring Arc was framed as a fairy tale and thus magic does happen. And as with any fairy tale, the moral is more important than absolute logic and reality. That is what fairy tales are like, there's always a touch of magic and so the story telling line inherently has more slack in it for things that would be illogical in non fairy tale tales. Of course, the Return of the Valkyrie ends in an absolutely LAME moment-a close up of Gabrielle giving a somewhat embarrassed, somewhat self-satisfied smile. Ohhhh boy! Just like in those 50's TV kids shows. How often did Leave It To Beaver end on a shot of the Beav, smiling and modest before the camera? (Of course, perhaps that's what this was supposed to be--a shot of the Beav?) Other great goo-goo eyes moments in the series were when X&G CRAWLED towards each other, desperate to be together again in both Between the Lines and Paradise Found, two absolutely excellent eps. In Paradise Found, I CRINGE at rabid bunny Xena. But the rest of the ep was so well done, that that inane silliness (pushed by Lawless by the way) can just be dismissed without too much effort. And this is of course, yet another time that Gabrielle brings Xena back to her own self and saves the day. Of course, another excellent ep that took up a Xena who had forgotten her past was Chakram. And again, Lucy found a presentation of Xena as an amnesiac that was valid, true and totally recognizable as Xena. And even though in Chakram she was an innocent, child-like woman who abhorred violence, a total antithesis of the real Xena, the script and dialogue didn't detract from her character's dignity and gravitas in any way. So stories of Xena losing her memory and/or goodness have been done a number of times. And done really well a number of times. The only original thought in Fates was to present a Xena without a past who gives up to her enemies. I truly am honestly amazed that Rob allowed this. But as I say, he was giving all the fans things they wanted. One sub-genre of bad fanfic consists of stories that glorify Gabrielle but accomplish this by degrading and diminishing Xena. And most certainly, there's lots of fans who love this type of bad fanfic. And so Fates is their ep. This one's for you... You know, even Xena's HAIRSTYLE sucked in Fates. Poodle Xena. Fugate's Xena is a totally insipid creature...with bad hair. And with no Xena spark at all. The second time only reinforced the > > rightness of my original impression. >> Humph. Big surpise. Fine. You put "Fates" in your "Stomp and Toss" file. I'll put it in my "Hmmm I Need To View That From A Different Angle" file. :-) - -- Ife Well, sure, in GOOD eps I can skip over plot holes in a single bound. In good eps, I can go surprising and unusual places where Xena takes me. But in bad eps, there just ain't enough ancillary loft to get ya going. When the story not only doesn't engage you but actually dismays you, hell, when it's so bad that not even Lucy can convince me that Xena would act this way, for me, that's just a SHAMEFUL waste of a good hour of XWP. Fates to me was a schmaltzy, sappy, hysterically dramatic, totally illogical fop of an ep. And there's far too many GREAT eps in XWP to suffer through this trite, degrading to Xena's character nonsense ever again. How's that for a different angle? I know just where to file it, too. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:46:05 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 4 > Cheryl wrote: > > >Look it no one can argue anyone into liking an episode they don't like. > > > > KT replied: > > Hey Ife--you listening? Grin. > > > > Heh, I figured that out awhile back, once I realized it wasn't about ep we > saw, so much as about the ep you'd rather have seen. But this makes absolute sense to me. Of COURSE that's true. That's why you watch a series--because it presents characters you've grown to like in stories that are well written and internally consistent. A series can take you anywhere so long as it stays true to itself. In fact, that's the best kind of series--those that do take you to new and surprising places but always with a reasonable and believable development of the character. The character develops from what went before but must stay within the boundaries of rational (for them) actions and responses. When I watch an XWP ep, I expect to see a recognizable Xena. And in most cases, even when Xena is good or evil, or in the present or the future or the past, or fully cognizent of whom she is or totally cut off from her memories and her experiences, she's still Xena. And that's what I expect to see. Not some creature who's totally at the mercy of a badly plotted ep, scrabbled together to accomplish a specific agenda of the writer and resulting in actions from the main character that are not remotely like anything we've ever seen her do before. And yeah--when I tune into Xena: Warrior Princess, I DO want to see Xena: Warrior Princess. I don't think that's unreasonable. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:47:47 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > > So I would say that enslaving yourself to the destiny the Fates weave > > for you is most definitely no part of Xena's philosophy. > > > > Yes, Xena was meant to be a warrior in this life as she learns from > > Krishna. And any steps that made her that warrior were important. But > > other steps could just as well lead to her becoming that warrior also. I > > think "Everything happens precisely as it should" can work if it refers > > more to broad strokes than to details. > > I happen to agree with this. GASP! Are you saying "Fates" contradicts your > interpretation of that line? Do you believe Xena was referring only to the > crucifixion when she said that? > > -- Ife Well yes. She's saying that she NEEDS to be crucified by Caesar. Because he was the catalyst for her whole life and what he did made her the woman she became. I don't buy it myself, but apparently Fugate does. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:54:54 -0500 (EST) From: Sarah Anne Packard Subject: [chakram-refugees] New Xena Merchandise - 11/20/03 - 2004 CALENDARS have arrived! (fwd) Oooh, check out the bit at the bottom - the Season 3 Xena dvd set now has a release date, woo-hoo!! :) -Sarah, aka the abbagirl- - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:06:38 -0800 From: Marianne Ward Subject: New Xena Merchandise - 11/20/03 - 2004 CALENDARS have arrived! Dear Xena Fan: Welcome to the Power Star Collectibles Xena Merchandise Information Update. You are receiving this update because you have purchased Xena Merchandise from Power Star in the past or you have requested to received these updates. If for any reason you don't want to receive these updates just reply and let us know, we will remove you promptly. We promise not to flood your mailbox and we don't give or sell our email or snail mail addresses to anyone. Now, for the update. New items in stock and shipping. 1. Xena 2004 Calendars - we have managed to obtain a small amount of 3 different 2004 Calendars put out by Creation. There are 2 different wall calendars & a daily tear away calendar 2. The Quotable Xena 135 Trading Card Set - is now available. We also have a very small amount of boxes & binders left. We will not be able to get anymore of those. 3. The 3rd Season of Xena will be released on DVD January 20th. Due to the Holiday Season, this is the last update we will be sending out for 2003. We will continue to get new merchandise in stock though so be sure to visit the website often. The updates will resume again in January. Thank you for your business, it is appreciated. Marianne Ward Power Star http://www.xenastore.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:57:28 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide > > I happen to agree with this. Are you saying "Fates" contradicts your > > interpretation of that line? Do you believe Xena was referring only to > the > > crucifixion when she said that? > > > > -- Ife > > > > I'm sorry for jumbing in but I believe Xena thinks more her present when she > said "everything precisely as it should" than a something general like her > destiny as a warrior. They came to an end and they couldn't go back to their > lives. But they knew who they were so... everything happens precisely as it > should: she dies to save Gabrielle and their souls even in this "wrong" > world. Gabrielle didn't accept this and turn things to be precisely as it > should. > > Sophia >> > > > Sophia! Thank the gods you came out of hibernation to help us! > > Ooo, I like! Yes, yes, yes! This explains why Xena's death doesn't > save anything. I think KT is justifiably upset about Xena's doing > this, as it does seem to make those blasted crosses so significant and > seems to suggest that Xena is giving in to "sacrifice for love," > instead of fighting for it. Gabs is the one who sets things right > (even if unwittingly) by doing what Xena usually did -- taking their > fate in her own hands, not accepting defeat, searching for other > choices, going with her heart as opposed to debating the pros and > cons. Snip snip > > I simply wasn't convinced that the superficial aspects (characters, > mushiness, "idealism") was what we're ultimately supposed to take away > from "Fates." If that were the case, then Xena's sacrifice on the > cross would've changed things back -- suggesting the "rightness" of > accepting that fate, of her expressing her love by dying and of her > being the washed out version of her "true" self that KT hates so > much. But, as you say, that's *not* what was "right." Xena's > acquiescence and sacrifice changed nothing. Gabrielle's refusal to > accept Xena's acquiescence and sacrifice is what changed things back. > Uh yeah--as I said about 15 posts ago. Grin. And I don't agree that "Characters are superficial aspects" > Again, I don't want to argue whether any of that was characteristic or > made sense. I'm not arguing that this is the most fantastic, well > plotted, etc. ep of all time. But these are things that are very important in stories to many people. And to me, I must admit. I'm saying only that the way it ends > tends to undermine the "rightness" of nearly everything we saw, > regardless of how "credible" it was and tends to prove much of what KT > says would've been "right." And I agree with KT about that. > > I don't expect KT to like or see the sense in an ep devoted to what > was "wrong." I can see why she believes (I think) that Fugate meant to > give credence to what we saw. This helps me understand why, instead, > I've come to think Fugate did a masterful job romanticizing what was > "wrong," while ultimately showing what was "right." I see it as a very shoddy job. Nothing can save this crap for me. That's just too much distortion, too much complexity for me to accept as the probable intention of this author. Not from what I've heard from her when she talks at cons and not from what I've read on her web site. KT And once again, > my dear, I have you to thank for saying in a few words what it takes > me pages to get out. > > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:06:28 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 sgitzou@periaktoi.gr wrote: > Xena did fight for her love. At the end of the ep, she gave up and left gabrielle behind with the powerful people who had already tried to kill her. Twice. But don't forget that she is another Xena. She > saw her past self but only saw it. She couldn 't remember it as a memory, as > a feeling. Both of them knew who they were. No they did not. They had not lived that other life. If that other world existed, then another Xena and Gabrielle, the ones whose real time line it was were still living in it. What happened to them then, when the Fates X&G suddenly showed up? Do we now have two sets of X&G? Perhaps this accounts for all the Xena look-alikes--it's all women who have popped in form other time lines. That knowledge explained to > them that chemistry and that sudden love they felt. But the only true > feeling they knew is this love in this world. What we see is Xena's life > without crucifixion on the beach and that life is very different and the > person who come from this life is a different person. But a life without > crucifixion isn't the right life, the life that it was meant to be. I just don't buy that Caesar crucifying Xena was the defining moment of her life. Respectful snippage > > > Gabrielle felt that there was something she could do and she had the > opportunity to do it. Xena didn't have it. Of course she had it. She was the Empress of Rome. She was a warrior. She was a conquerer. She could easily have fought ehr way out of there--look how she takes on all those soldiers when she first appears in this ep. Before meeting Gabrielle unwomans her. > They acted without trying to change things anymore. Xena was dying and fates > told Gabrielle that it was dangerous that she was going to do. They both > wanted to do something, a try, a reaction in this mess, in their wrong life. > When Gabrielle set up the fire didn't know if she corrected the things. She > just wanted to do something as Xena did. In this wrong world Gabrielle > didn't accept the death of Xena and she died too. > > Sophia But the story's not written that they died. They were somehow returned to the regular time line. How? Who knows? It's not explained. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:18:35 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide > sgitzou@periaktoi.gr writes: > > > Gabrielle felt that there was something she could do and she had the > > opportunity to do it. Xena didn't have it. > > > > See, that's where KT would probably disagree, and I do too. The "other" Xena > was always looking for options, putting herself in position for another > round, even if she wasn't sure of the outcome. respecgtful snippage > Yes, she fought to save Gabrielle, but she > seemed to believe that her own escape had to be through death, which I don't > think she thought would change anything except taking her off Caesar's fake > stage. > And why would she do that? What good that do? It wasn't going to save Gabrielle and her dying was just about the only thing that would guarantee them never being together in that world. Totally senseless. > I do agree with KT that > even this Xena could've *made* other opportunities, but chose not to > try. And I don't see that as inconsistent with the profound sense of > loss ("true" past, present and future) that drove these versions of > Xena and Gabrielle to end the "wrong" life Ceasar had bestowed on > everyone. > She didn't accept losing Gabrielle in Is There A Doctor In The House, in Remember Nothing, in Girls Just Want To Have Fun, in Lost Mariner, in Bitter Suite, in One Against an Army, in Sacrifice, in Adventures in the Sin Trade, in Family Affair, in Devi, In Ides of March, In Deja Vu, in Fallen Angel, in Where's Gurkan, or in Return of the Valkyrie. In all of these eps, the little blond kid was snatched (or about to be snatched) in one way or another from her life. But she did not give up trying to get her back. Only in Fates does she do that. KT > - Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:25:41 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide respectful snippage On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 sgitzou@periaktoi.gr wrote: > > If you join all the "if" of your life, you will create another life. Yes. But I don't think that a person's basic, deep down character changes very much after they're grown up. And this world was changed after Xena was already a young woman. She was already brave, intelligent, and ready to fight for what she wanted. That should not have been iggnore4d. > > "When fates collide" is a story for the non stopping of the true love. That > soulmates finds each other even if the world change from the begining. A > story that heart never loses her way.. BUT if the earth doesn't turn the > right way not even true love can live. > I don't agree with that in Xena's saga. True love always wins out in XWP. It does in all those eps I already mentioned and in many more besides. I am certainly not denying the undying love of Xena for Gabrielle--I'm just saying it's been presented endlessly before in many better ways in many better eps. I also refuse to deny Xena's huge protective streak towards those she loves. She would never give up and die before she knew that her loved ones were safe. KT > Sophia ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:42:46 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide AHHHHHHH what a LOVELY post! On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, mirrordrum wrote: Snip snip snip. md lays out so well what so wrong with this ep. Excellent job, bud! And absolutely hilarious! > > for me, waffles all the way through. > soulmates are soulmates however insipid (yawn) and caesar's just a stinker. i think > that's the argument for why xena has to get crucified, btw. the fate that > they can't seem to escape (according to ms. fugate) is being stabbed to > death by somebody in caesar's case and another wet shoot for lucy--er, > spikes in the palms for xena. whatever. and gabrielle serves as the deus ex > machina which is rather an unusual role for her, actually. xena doesn't > usually need one. > It's Xena ex machina, usually > and insipid is the word i've been looking for. gabrielle is insipid, her > play is insipid, and despite lucy's best efforts, xena is fairly insipid--in > the sense of diluted, relatively bland. looks nice on the horsey in the > leathers and all but. . .she ain't xener. it's not the acting i'm talking > about but the part, the characterization. blech! > YES! You GO grrl! > oh, and to address one of sophia's points, sophia makes the assumption that > the xena in wouldn't have had battle experience. i think the context > argues against that. a commander of the troops and one beloved of troops and > all of rome, sufficiently exhaulted as a commander that she gets to go > before the senate to champion her latest request for an increase in military > spending (do i remember that correctly?), she has certainly been in plenty > of battles and that means she's fought and killed and that she is very > clearly a warrior. in the beginning, she clearly demonstrates that good old > "take one me" attitude and i have no doubt that the xena we know and love > could have taken on both alti and the soldiers at the end there. she just > didn't and i'm blessed if i know why. also i expressed doubts at the time, > and still have them, about the fervor with which the troops who loved her > would have been quite so eager to do her in, caesar or no caesar. *our* xena > would have turned them against caesar with her incomparable skills. pah! > Exactly. Becoming Empress of the known world trumps being a warlord who only attacks villages but doesn't rule a kingdom anyday, in terms of the skills and determination it takes to achieve that. snip snip > xena is the hero so, imo, she has to stay the same in her essence. she may > suffer, she may have flaws, fatal flaws and xena does. but she is above > everything but her moira, her fate. and her fate, her moira, would be the > scope of what is possible for her to accomplish, those limits beyond which, > as a mortal, she can't go. that's something separate, to my way of thinking, > from who she ends up with. it's about something larger. am i totally off the > wall here? i think somehow that the idea of xena and gabrielle as soulmates, > whatever the hell that means, flows from xena's fate rather than being the > driving force of it. > Gods, you are SO good! snip snip > > xena was at the end of her tether when she met gabrielle not because she was > a woman without passion or fervor but because she was a woman in search of a > redemption and meaning she couldn't find; she was a woman with an excess of > passion. to me, that's a definining characteristic of xena that no > loom-editing would or could remove. how she expressed her passions might be > changed, but her passion and her consumate skills as a warrior and commander > would not themselves be altered. had this happened, she wouldn't have been > in the position in which we find her in the beginning of , haring > around on horseback, doing flips, ululating, knocking down the praetorian > guard (or whoever they were) and zipping arrows at caesar. now that's xena. > > all that mooning about over a sappy play and draping and swooning on > balconies on xena's part is so much horse pucky, imo. I LOVE you... and as far as being > drawn to gab, if there was one thing that attracted xena to gabrielle as an > individual it was gab's stroppiness and pluck. she wouldn't have given that > simpy playwrite a second glance, fate or no fate. and no one will convince > me that xena, no matter how much loom footage caesar clipped, would develop > an interest in theatre. she would always be a woman of action. this is the > woman who uses scrolls for toilet paper, fer zeus' sake. need i say more? > I always think she "used the part without a lot of writing on it" just because she didn't want ink up her butt, rather than out of any sense of preserving what Gabrielle had written. It was a very practical move on her part. > thank you. i feel much better. i just needed to say that out loud. > > and sophia, i still think yours is a fine post. i just don't happen to agree > with a lot of it. ;) > > md > I know that me too posts are verbotten. I snipped what I could bear to, I just couldn't bear to snip much. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:46:01 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide > in the strange universe of , however, i think the entire concept of > "soulmates" is actually deconstructed since (as i said in the previous post) > i think the bond is primarily driven by who xena is. my impression is that > no matter how many times they come back, xena will *always* be xena. in > caesar's little world, he makes xena not xena and, to my way of thinking, > gab not gab. so for me it doesn't really demonstrate anything. i simply > could never buy that these two people were the same "souls" that we see in > or or even and . > > md--who can't believe she's involved in a conversation about FATES gods help me> I know--horrific, ain't it? Go watch the Ring arc. Or the Debt. Or Ides. Wallow in the excellence that XWP often reached. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #347 **************************************