From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #327 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, November 1 2003 Volume 03 : Number 327 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] O/S Tarzan ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 3 [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Xena Night at Meow Mix Dec. 9 [meredith ] [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan (oh the irony) [meredith ] [chakram-refugees] NewXenaland locations pages [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan (oh the irony) [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] O/S Tarzan [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:11:17 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] O/S Tarzan >Sharon noted: > >>Just an FYI for those not aware of it, but Lucy's scenes in these past >>episodes had already been filmed with another actress. They simply >reshot them. - --*Ahhhh*.....no wonder why the scenes looked so *choppy* and lacked chemistry.....;( So CherylL was correct.....;P Thanks for enlightening us, Sharon. ;) But *still*......;=/ On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:04:52 EST, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >LOL! It's nuts to get stuck on this, but my own comment was more about >intentionality. Lucy seems to have a pretty good feel for how she wants >to interact with the main characters. With John, she's loose, adopts > > With uncle and Jane, she's tough, has more of an "edge," lots of head >cocks and peering up in a calculated way. But when she's doing "filler" >things -- like looking over reports with her employees or talking to the >maid -- it just seems more "studied" to me, less like she's in Kathleen's - --"Intentionality" to me is the same as "motivation". Maybe for you this equals "different personalities for different situations", and I agree people IRL can _some_times be this way, but most times they really are just different facets of the same box, and there's some consistency to their actions/reactions. It's precisely because of these different ways of relating to others without a core consistency that leads me to believe Kathleen's character is "lost" (at least the way LL is portraying her). ;( Even if LL's character has not yet been written for her, what I said earlier about her just _choosing_ a path and then going down it with proper motivation, would still make Kathleen's role far more palatable for me than it is now. I.e., if Kathleen is supposed to be the hardened businesswoman (which by all appearances she is), then just play that to the hilt, with perhaps some softening around those individuals she loves, like John, etc. But to play the pro businesswoman in one scene, then a total wimp in another (who freaks out at loud crashing noises and her nephew--whom she _knows_ climbs trees--jumping down suddenly in front of her in the greenhouse), then a suspicious *b*tch* in another, does not make much sense to me, regardless of how "loose" LL wants to play it. ;P >Indeed, it may be that she consciously chose for Kathleen to appear >spontaneous -- "unself-conscious" -- in her own home, as opposed to >someone whose business persona *is* who they are, even "informally." Now >that I've seen more of the domestic scenes with John, I'm thinking that's >where Lucy's going, so the stair thing "fits" more to me. While I do - --No, the stair-thang still doesn't look right to me, unless she _were_ in the Olympics or an Amazon training camp. ;P I've rarely seen people climb stairs that way, nor have I done so (at that speed) myself, even in urgency. Even the maid didn't climb the stairs that way, and she was subject to the same "emergency" circumstances as Kathleen. And _especially_ if she were a hardened businesswoman, she would be more proper and concerned about not falling, looking the correct way, etc. Or, how's about giving her character some time to react to the noise? Like, stopping halfway up the stairs? That would've showed more reflection than just a hop-skip-jump-and-voila! > At this point, for me anyway, it's more like, "Hmmm, wonder where she's >going with that," rather than, "That didn't seem 'right'" or (a la >Jackie), "She seem's 'lost." I figure she knows what she's doing. Not - --LOL. ;) So now Ife's named a new critique style after me, eh?!? "A la Jackie". LOL ;) I guess, being the cynic I am, I just don't trust _any_one, not even LL. ;P I didn't even agree with all of LL's acting choices in XWP; I'm not about to "lay down" for her choices in Tarzan. ;P LOL CherylA wrote: >> Also Jane is going to have lighten up a bit - I know we are doing > >> angst here but she is getting to be a neurotic pain. >> > >Yeah, I'm afraid the actress doesn't do subtle variations very well. > >kinds of conflictedness. I see basically the same anguished look, >whether it's the moral dilemma of withholding evidence, remembrance of >her slain boyfriend, worry over John getting killed for interfering, >concerns for her career, questioning the "rightness" of her attraction to >John, balancing her personal life and work, etc. Most of the time she - --*Well, well*...this is an interesting development. ;) I actually do like Jane's reactions, though I do agree they are somewhat repetitive. But that is how RL is. Same old, same old. ;P What I like about her reactions is that they have the ring of *truth* to them, whereas LL's do not. Although Jane is repeatedly angst-driven, at least I *feel* it every time she pushes her Angst Button. I don't feel she's being phoney, just repetitive. And I believe it's probably the writing and directing that's holding her back from *really* taking over that show. ;P But LL's reactions still don't have that ring of truth to them yet, which is why I'm uncomfortable. A good example is when Kate was reminiscing about her childhood with her brother. If she was so young when her brother died, how could she've been close to John to feel such warmth for him when they finally meet again? And she must've run these memories through her mind when John's father first died, so these memories would've been somewhat resolved, not as "fresh" as she played them. For some reason, that scene just felt too "pushed" to me. ;( But, this is clearly becoming a case of "different strokes for different folks". ;) Just MO, ;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:02:21 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 3 Oooh, another one for my reincarnated computer to reply to... On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:27, KTL wrote: > Cheryl: > > Well I rather like the mush. We had no much in season 5 so the > > mush-o-meter quotient went up in season 6. Hmm, I use 'mush' exclusively as a term of derision. I wouldn't use it for an emotional moment that I liked. > But there seldom is mush in Xena. There is dialogue that could easily > have been mushy, but Lucy almost always manages to put heart into the > often banal words and make them strong and heartfelt instead. And with her > amazing ability to take even trash seriously and thus give it dignity, she > pulled many moments of mushy sludge up by their slavering chinnie chin > chins and turned them into honest, true and often beautiful moments in the > show. (snip extensive examples by KT of moments of 'love' in Season 5 episodes). > And in Motherhood, for the love of Xena, Ares even sacrifices his godhood > to bring Eve back to life. And then also restores Gabrielle for no other > reason but that he knows that Xena loves her. Even though he knows that > Xena will choose to be with Eve and Gabrielle over being with him, he > still brings them back from the dead. Now THAT is love. > > And I will take love over mush any day. And there were massive amounts of > extraordinary, life-transforming, transcendent love in Season five. Yes but, the wrong sort of 'love', i.e. not between the right people. The right people being (for a number of subtexters (subtext-fundies?), Xena and Gabrielle and nobody else. They saw any affection shown between, say, Xena and Ares, or Xena and Anthony, or (shock horror) Joxer and Gabrielle, as a vile plot by TPTB to undermine the subtext. And they judged every episode by how many Xena-Gab-subtexty moments were in it and loudly derided Season 5 as a failure because it fell short of their expectations. (Note to subtexters: I'm *not* saying that all subtexters did that and I know many who didn't). > Cheryl: > > Yes I like the more subtle stories too but I found WFC to be kind of > > liberating. Here the love story took center stage and I found that to > > brave move on TPTB part. This is a mushy tragic love story between two > > women done as high drama - I think that was first for popular TV. > > Yeah which makes it particularly sad to me that it wasn't done well. > However, I think a GOOD high drama (with elements of tragedy and loss) > love story between two women had already been done by PacRen that year. In > the Ring arc. I think that is the best telling of a romance story between > X&G. I hope somebody brings out a poster of the kiss in that one. Because > it would be a marvelous, lovely, positive image for a very young lesbian > to hang on her wall amidst all her other cultural icon posters---the > Princess Charming coming and waking up the Princess. Taken and understood > in all it's text, sub-text and high romantic and sexual potential. > > Now THAT was a GOOD romance "novel". Oh agreed. I thought, for example, that the hint of - jealousy (?) that Xena showed when Beowulf and Brunnhilde showed their concern for Gabs, was very nicely done - and highly amusing too. And the subtext implicit in Xena being able to awake Sleeping Beauty Gabs was quite palatable to me. Because it was lightly done, not overloaded with cloying sentimentality and emotionalism. (snip discussion of violence) > > I just don't understand the constant dredged up horror of the Gabfans over > the Gabdrag when there were so many other draggings in the series. Some > Gabfans act as if Xena just woke up one morning, cracked her knuckles and > said, "You know, I'm bored. I think I'll go drag Gabrielle aroundt he > countryside for a while." Works for me. :) (Aaargh! OK, I'm sorry. I won't do it again. Promise. 8-( > They somehow miss the reason behind why Xena did that. > > Actually, I think the Gabdrag became ridiculous because it too went too > far. Any normal human being being dragged across boulders, through fire, > used to knock down parts of buildings, etc. would have been dead. This is the Xenaverse.... where people never get concussion, broken bones, or broken necks no matter how much they beat each other up.... > (Or at least would have been wearing their dress up above their ears.) Most defintiely so, but that would've been a bit X-rated for the target audience. Well, part of the target audience, at least. ;) > And it was > just hilariously obvious that it was a dummy in a number of those scenes. Yes, that was a bit distracting. A dramatic moment like that shouldn't ever look phony. > Ultimately, it just became silly to me. > > Fugate said at one con that she had put in Xenadrag 3 to make up for the > Gabdrag a little. Now THAT is gratuitious violence. It's also rather absurd. My favourite squawk was the person who complained that Xena dragging Crassus off in When in Rome was being *insensitive*. Not to Crassus (she had, after all, just saved his neck) but to Gabrielle. Oh my. I suppose, judged by that standard, Xena was being really really insensitive in WFC in letting herself be dragged off by Caesar's guys ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:31:40 -0500 From: meredith Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena Night at Meow Mix Dec. 9 >Xena Night at Meow Mix in NYC > >The Overlord Julia and HRH Camille insist that you attend our December 9th >Winter Solstice Thrills and Chills Festival. We present a night of debauched >revelry, including the thrilling skills of DJ Matty Gzus, and the chilling >intensity of some of the best seasonally appropriate XWP episodes ever. >Door prizes, >trivia prizes, live entertainment, and fascinating conversation. Be part of >the continuing life of the Xenaverse and Party With The Geeks! All the >info and >much, much more, at the web site: http://www.xenanight.com =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:21:27 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Helicon Oooh I just found this mouldering in my 'pending' mailbox. And guess what - my computer, which had apparently died, musta been inspired by the spirirt of the Xenaverse ('nobody ever dies permanently') 'cos it's back from the grave, and working better than ever. Maybe the fact I call it 'Alti' helps.... ;) Okay, here goes.... On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:39, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:29:25 -0800 (AKDT) > From: KTL > Subject: [chakram-refugees] To Helicon > > Hey, just for the hell of it, I'll resend my Helicon review also. (Since I > mentioned Helicon in the Fates Review.) > > .... > <<"I mean, ok, 1. you have amazons, theoretically great guerilla fighters, > specialty forest guerilla warfare. 2. you have an unknown enemy holed up > in a stronghold. 3. you have Xena brilliant military mind with a knack > for infiltrating, sneaking and spying out her enemies. > > What do you do? Full frontal amphibious assault?!?!? What, did Xena have > a lobotomy? Since when is it a good idea to minimze your strengths rather > then capitalize on them?>> > > Actually this wasn't a full frontal assault. What the Amazons were doing > was landing at the back of the castle where Xena said there were no > defenses. They were going to land under the cover of darkness and the make > their way up to the castle where Xena was suppose to have killed > Bellerphone. The problem of course was the Bellerphon had defenses and was > expecting the assault by sea. Then Xena screwed up and didn't stick around > and kill Bellerphon, which I agree was a major plot hole. If Xena had > skewered him right then and there, the Amazons would have made it to shore > without the casualties. I doubt with their leader dead the soldiers would > have cared about Varia or the Amazons. If Xena had skewered Bellerophon then and there the whole Amazonphibious assault would have been unnecessary, wouldn't it? > < sentries? Hell, didn't Amazons use to have swords? These girls were > mostly fighting hand to sword combat. Some of them are seen picking > swords up off the ground, but not many seemed to have their own. It was > like the army had come through some village where the warriors were off to > war and only the "wimmin" were home to fight them. Women who were > surprised by the attack and totally ill prepared and unable to fend it > off. But on XWP, even village women and men fight pretty well when > confronted by bad guys. They usually give a good account of > themselves--hell in AUS, they even stand firm against a whole > conglomeration of armies. So actually these Amazons were > presented as being even worse fighters than the regular run of the mill > folks on XWP.>> > > Actually the Amazons never do seem to come off as very competent, at least > the Greek Amazons don't. Let's see Livia managed to ride into their > village unchallenged. Then that Prince from Upper Slovobia was able to > kill their queen and a bunch of other Amazons. The mortal Ares and his > army burned down their forest. Also they managed to nearly get wiped out > by Pompey without even causing much trouble for him until Xena took over. No, I disagree there. 'Endgame' showed the initial battles as fairly evenly matched. > So I would say the Amazon's were actually pretty much up to form in this > episode. I think that does an injustice to most other Amazon episodes. Including Love Amazon Style. ;) > < with the terrain of Greece". Then they all cluster around and look at a > map! Did Gab have the map of Greece hidden in her luggage? Is that why > the Amazons couldn't just read the map for themselves and so needed > somebody who knows Greece? If they don't know Greece, what the hell were > they doing THERE making queens? Why did they pick that area of unfamiliar > terrain to all of them for this ceremony? Beats me.>> > > They are there because Varia has called them together to unite the various > nations, so they are unfamiliar with Greece. It however does make some > sense that they would feel that it was the duty of a Greek queen to lead > the battle in Greek territory. Gabrielle did suggest that Xena lead the > Amazons but they reject that idea and insist on Gabrielle leading them. Didn't seem to cause too much problem in Endgame.... > The Amazon's are nothing if not neurotically tied to their traditions. > Gabrielle continually tries to give Xena command of the army and they keep > insisting that Gabrielle is the only they will follow. Seems like the Season 6 loss-of-IQ virus struck them too. Let me see now, Gabrielle the well-known pacifist and follower of Eli? Doesn't this just scream 'plot device'? ;) > < often in the past for girls captured by warlords and being held in their > strongholds? ...>> > > Because the Amazon's probably would get all huffy and insulted that Xena, > who is not an Amazon, would go off and rescue their queen So, what were they going to do about it? Give her back? Declare Xena Persona Non Grata and request Queen Gabby to find herself a new soulmate? Not invite Xena to their next howling-at-the-moon party? (Umm, now I think of it, they never invited her to those anyway). As it is, I can just imagine the debriefing session - "Well sisters, we've lost two-thirds of our warriors recuing a queen who was immediately deposed before the action was over, by the leader we appointed to rescue her, but we Kept Our Self-Respect". Followed by three verses of 'I did it My Way'. > < shore. They all stand up in the boat and emit girly squeals whenever it > rocks. They are scared to be at sea. Gabrielle, who has apparently used > her pressure points remedy to stop her well established seasick malady, > walks among them, bucking up the troops. While either refusing or just > forgetting to share Xena's medical knowledge with them. (You know, if > they'd just sat down, they wouldn't have felt the rocking so much.)>> > > I just watched the episode again and actually they only squeal once and I > think it was surprise when a wave hits the boat :) Memo to Amazons: Re: Sea. The sea is full of waves. These are the bumpy things you can see moving across it. When they hit a boat it bounces around a bit. This is quite normal and nothing to be concerned about. For your comfort, it is suggested that you hang on to something when waves are encountered, which is most of the time. Thank you. Your captain. > rather then fear (as Xena > said to Ares when he squeals at the sight of a rat: "that's not fear, it's > surprise). Actually the more interesting question is where did they get > that boat? Do the Amazon's have a navy? So if there is no navy they must > have hired the ship and this is probably why Belle figured out they were > coming by sea. As for the seasickness - I don't know why Gabby didn't > teach them the pinch - maybe she forgot (g). > > > < time they have their swords, but they forgot their bows and arrows. An > interesting side note--there are trees in the background and a boulder > strewn headland to their right, yet they run across the open beach to hide > behind these teensy little branch barriers that Belleraphon's boys put out > as bait apparently.>> > > Actually a lot of them did have bows and arrows but they arrows wouldn't > have done them any good anyway - the fort was too far away. The things > they were hiding behind were actually put there to impede their progress up > the beach. Agreed. Those barricades were not much use as cover, even from arrows, and none from B's 'catapult'. Actually, if B really planned it right, he shoulda made the barriers much better cover - and then sighted his 'catapult' in with trial shots the day before. > < their way up the beach and act as if they've never seen anyone die before. > All they needed was some heels and pearls to complete the helpless, > hapless classic B movie women in danger look.>> > > Again I don't think screaming when fire hits you and arrows denote > cowardice. Also the people who seemed to be spooked were the young Amazons > and perhaps they never were in battle before. The Amazons I assume are not > perpetually at war so not every Amazon would be battle hardened. Amazons > like Cyane seem to be worried but not particularly spooked. > > > < boredom, gets about two feet away, and gets blown up. This great > diversion tactic gives the girls all of 12 seconds before they run out > from their little branch hideaways in sheer girly hysteria, dash halfway > across the open sands and then apparently give up the effort to reach the > protection of the dune and instead lie down flat on the open beach. And > wail. Great strategy>> > > I have to admit Trudis didn't strick me as a particularly bright girl. I'm > afraid I wouldn't have been the one to say yes mam to that particular > assignment. Of course this completely ignores the fact that trying to hit a running person with a shot from a 'catapult' is pointless. Those things are frighteningly effective against *stationary* targets like castle walls. Against a moving target it's like trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer. Actually, for anti-personnel use, I think I'd just fill the 'catapult' basket with stones, maybe 2" or 3" across. The shotgun approach. A shower of those landing on the beach would be just as lethal and give far better coverage of the target area. > > << G. "You should take over." > X: The Amazons aren't going to listen to me." Since when? It's that 26 > year gap and that fan fic file that's got all those gals confused, I bet.>> > > Xena is probably right. They only listen to Xena if they have no choice or > if Gabrielle is acting as queen. You noticed no one ever asked Xena to > take over or do they ever ask her advice about anything. Check out 'Endgame'. > < them much time. In fact it really wasn't worth waiting around for instead > of heading right to the shelter of the sand dunes, which they should have > done the minute they hit the beach. I don't think these two diversions > saved any more lives than if they had just hit the dunes right away. > Gabrielle congratulates them all. "At least we're out of the line of > fire." YAY!>> > > My question is if the Chaky can take out one catapult why doesn't Xena just > keep flinging it around until all the catapults are blown up? Seems like > really good idea. Xena does seem to be having real lapses in judgment in > this episode. 'Cos this ep is payback on behalf of the gabfans for all the times Gabs has had to do stupid things to further the plot? ;) Unfortunately Gabs fares no better than Xena in this ep anyway. > > < decides they will retreat. Gabrielle is stunned. "RETREAT!" she yells > incredulously. (She's just not the best strategist in the crowd, is she? > Or maybe she just thought things were going well?)>> That was cruel, KT. :) > Actually there is nowhere to retreat to, is there? So retreating seems out > of the question any way. They also know that Bellerphone is after the > Amazons so he would come after them while they are retreating. I actually > think Varia is trying to think of a way to get out of her deal with > Bellerphone and suggested the retreat as way the get out of trying to kill > Gabrielle. Well, they managed to retreat a few minutes later, didn't they? > > < escape by water and approach the castle from a different direction. > Gabrielle then gets bent out of shape over taking the wounded along on the > retreat. "More of us will be injured or die." (Subtext: "I don't want to > take any chances with getting my queenly ass safely outta here") > > Xena and Varia sprout stiff speechless, embarrassed by G's lack of > honorable leadership looks which shame Gabrielle into agreeing to take the > wounded along. (Of course, she does get her revenge later for them > slowing her down when she feeds one of the wounded to the sharks.)>> > > Actually Gabrielle is right. Taking bleeding people into shark infested > waters is a bad idea. So is swimming in shark infested water. Then > feeding people to sharks in the water is a bad idea. Oh! I guess going by > water was just a bad idea. Oh gosh you finally got there. Give this gal the Gabrielle Master of Strategy award. ;) Actually it was just the Spielberg Effect. 'Who cares if it makes any sense so long as the idea sounds cool?' It was just a way to show ex-bleeding heart pacifist Gabby being hardened by the responsibility of commanding in battle. 'It's a tough job, getting people killed, but someone's gotta do it'. We can blame the entire dumb idea on Spielberg (or TPTB's desire to imitate Saving Private Ryan). If they'd planned to attack across the beach in the first place, I'd have all sorts of things to say about the stupidity of attacking across an open beach. (Armies with heavy artillery support and air cover find it critically difficult). As it is, landing on the beach can be put down to accident - their ship was hit by Bellerophon's 'catapult'. Direct hit, too, with the first shot - that has to be a first time ever ;) I'm assuming they originally planned to land at the base of the cliffs, where they might have some cover (and would be less conspicuous to anyone who happened to look out to sea). As KT pointed out, since they had no bows and arrows and hence were sitting targets on an open beach, why didn't they run like hell for the cliffs which at least would have given some cover? Wherever they intended to land, though, they should have sent in a scouting party ahead to signal if the coast was clear (literally :). If no signal, assume the scouts are prisoners or dead and call off the attack. On the whole, though, since they were still apparently capable of escaping by water *after* their hammering on the beach, they must have been capable of doing so immediately after B sank their ship and before so many got killed - so why didn't they? They thought they could still pull off a sneak attack across an open beach against an enemy who knew they were coming? Surely this falls in the category of "We'll catch him by surprise - nobody could believe we'd do something so stupid" ;) > < She was a cool character that they had given some interesting back story > to. What a waste. A real Amazon would have used that ploy to escape and > then just started guerrilla action against Belleraphon and his troops > anytime they managed to find that incredibly elusive footpath and leave > the castle. But we're also deconstructing the Amazons as great warriors in > this ep, so maybe that's why Varia got shafted too.>> > > Yes a great queen would have used Belle's plan against him but when did > Varia ever show any kind of judgement. She insists on killing Eve in > Coming Home when they need Xena to fight Ares, then she follows Xena and > gets in trouble in Dangerous Prey, and then she almost turns the tribe over > to Ares - this girl is not queen material. Again I think the Amazons > don't come off as awful warrior. They do defeat Telephone and his army > once they have a chance to stand up and fight I agree about Varia, she never really had the presence to be a queen (or even a leader, IMO). 'Telephone'? - how many different ways to spell 'Bellerophon' are you going to find, grrl? ;) Actually, they didn't 'stand up and fight' - they did what they're good at, an ambush in the forest. > < ground already and have dealt with it far better in past episodes like A > Good Day and Endgame. Why take someone else's "War is hell" study and > homage it when you've got excellent stuff in the can on this topic > already? It's unfathomable to me.>> > > Actually I think what they were trying to do was a character study of how > war changes people specifically Gabrielle. They were indeed, that was kinda obvious, but it sucked. Not because of the idea itself, but because the entire supporting plot was deficient. The idea of copying Spielberg should've been given the elbow right in the first draft. And because the plot was so deficient, it made Gabs (and Xena) look dumb. > Gabrielle indeed doesn't act > like herself and she says that to Xena. She is trying to behave as a queen > would. She is doing what Xena does in The Price - she is trying to put away > the humane part of her and to be the stoic warrior. The one who can send an > Amazon to her death if necessary and decide that wounded will be sacrificed > if necessary. The problem is that Gabrielle can't do this without a lot of > damage to herself. She doesn't have that ruthless streak that Xena has. > Now that is what I believe the episode is about. The problem is that to do > this you had to create a situation where the Amazons get in trouble in a > realistic way. The battle plan goes awry for a plausible reason but > apparently a lot of people didn't find the plot plausible. I personally > never can understand any strategy (I still am confused about what exactly > was going on in A Good Day) so I concentrated on the human drama here. I > wasn't as critical of that part of the story although I do believe a lot of > the dialog was stilted and sounded forced. However the episode still hold > my interest. > > CherylA Snag is, for the human drama to matter, the plot has to be at least adequately plausible. If something strikes one as particularly stupid or incongruous - and especially if it's some action by someone at the focus of attention - then it distracts completely from what we're presumably supposed to be thinking about. In Helicon, I think we were supposed to worry mainly about the effect that command had on Gabby's nature. I don't think that effect was supposed to include a sudden loss of IQ (I *know* I've gone on about Gabby doing dumb things before, most of them were rash or ill-considered but at least plausible). Gabby's actions in Helicon were all over the shop. Feeding the shark for example. And Xena didn't fare much better. Take 'Legacy' by way of contrast. I've ranted before about Gabs' failure to keep her mouth shut and confessing to killing Desert Boy, thereby derailing Xena's plan right across all tracks - but that was typically Gabby. It was entirely believable. I might have said rude words to the TV about Gabs keeping her mouth shut, but it wasn't a Monty Python moment like those in Helicon. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:56:14 -0500 From: meredith Subject: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan (oh the irony) Hi, Just had to share ... I just watched episode #3 of "Tarzan". This is the one with the oft-discussed Run Up The Stairs, right? Well, I didn't see it ... the WB's clock was off last Sunday and I didn't catch the first five minutes of the episode. Damn. I was so looking forward to seeing this scene that caused such an uproar here. ;) I do agree the show is getting better as it goes along, though. And in comparison to "Tru Calling" -- the show starring Eliza Dushku (Faith from "Buffy") which featured Hudson Leick in the pilot -- it's Emmy material. (I couldn't believe how bad "Tru Calling" was!! Good lord.) =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:33:49 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] NewXenaland locations pages The NewXenaland 'locations' pages have been offline for a few weeks since their host, Dingojunction, sank without trace. (Thanks Adrian Petford of Xenaverse-Britannia for letting me know). Still, nothing ever dies permanently in the Xenaverse. They're back up again at http://cr.qc1.net/nx/index1.html cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:56:47 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan (oh the irony) In a message dated 11/1/2003 11:04:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, meth@smoe.org writes: > Just had to share ... I just watched episode #3 of "Tarzan". This is the > one with the oft-discussed Run Up The Stairs, right? Well, I didn't see it > ... the WB's clock was off last Sunday and I didn't catch the first five > minutes of the episode. Damn. I was so looking forward to seeing this > scene that caused such an uproar here. ;)>> LOL! I believe the "uproar" consisted of two people (Ife an Jackie) who thought the stair-run a bit odd, while a couple of other folks (including Cheryl) wondered if some of us didn't have anything better to do than nitpick at this fairly inconsequential (to them) scene. The answer to that, of course, is "no," which is why someone must put this bit up on a site somewhere so that you can judge it for yourself. I should add that I've since decided that the stair-climb was probably "characteristic" of the Kathleen whom Lucy is shaping, which wasn't apparent to me at the time I saw the stair-climb. Clear? > > I do agree the show is getting better as it goes along, though. And in > comparison to "Tru Calling" -- the show starring Eliza Dushku (Faith from > "Buffy") which featured Hudson Leick in the pilot -- it's Emmy > material. (I couldn't believe how bad "Tru Calling" was!! Good lord.) > Eewww. Agreed! I taped the danged thing just because of Hudson. Thank the gods I got to see her playing Psycho Barbie first! I can't believe how reviewers are going along with the hype on some of these shows. They're not just bad. They're atrocious! It's amazing how often I'm reminded of what wonderful roles XWP gave quite a few actors. I see them in other shows as shadows of what they got to do in the Xenaverse. Kathryn Morris is about the only person I've actually tried to watch more than once, in her show "Cold Case." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:56:55 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] O/S Tarzan In a message dated 10/31/2003 10:11:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, jyoung@lava.net writes: > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:04:52 EST, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >LOL! It's nuts to get stuck on this, but my own comment was more about > >intentionality. Lucy seems to have a pretty good feel for how she wants > >to interact with the main characters. With John, she's loose, adopts > > > > With uncle and Jane, she's tough, has more of an "edge," lots of head > >cocks and peering up in a calculated way. But when she's doing "filler" > >things -- like looking over reports with her employees or talking to the > >maid -- it just seems more "studied" to me, less like she's in Kathleen's > > --"Intentionality" to me is the same as "motivation". Maybe for you this > equals "different personalities for different situations", and I agree > people IRL can _some_times be this way, but most times they really are > just different facets of the same box, and there's some consistency to their > actions/reactions. >> I actually meant "intentionality" in terms of Lucy's acting choices for the character, which might not always seem "consistent" -- e.g., very different reactions to John vs. other characters. It's just that she seems quite sure of the impression she wants to create in "big" scenes, but is still feeling her way with others, which is quite understandable. Frankly, as the viewer, I don't know yet whether what I'm seeing for the first time will become "typical," was a reaction to something we might not see again, or was her trying out something she may decide to do differently if confronted with it again. > > It's precisely because of these different ways of relating to others > without a core consistency that leads me to believe Kathleen's character > is "lost" (at least the way LL is portraying her). ;( >> I do see a core consistency in her approach to the key characters we've seen so far -- guarded, thoughtful, probing, and communicating she is not to be messed with. It's like a mask (as Xena wore) when she's "working" or in the presence of those who may have tricks up their sleeves. But the first time she accepts that John is truly her nephew, she smiles genuinely. She becomes protective with others, yet takes off the mask with John, becoming more relaxed, playful, vulnerable -- almost a kindred spirit in terms of being alone and needing family she can trust and relate to. This contrast in how she approaches John vs. everyone else is something Lucy seems very intentional about in every gesture and facial expression. > But to play the pro businesswoman in one scene, then a total wimp in > another (who freaks out at loud crashing noises and her nephew--whom she > _knows_ climbs trees--jumping down suddenly in front of her in the > greenhouse), then a suspicious *b*tch* in another, does not make much > sense to me, regardless of how "loose" LL wants to play it. ;P >. Again, I now believe she's showing a different side of Kathleen at home, with people she trusts -- showing that the "real" Kathleen is not the hardened person her brother is, that she is not a "ho hum" mogol who has underlings go check things out while she continues to go over P&L statements in her living room. Sort of like the comfort level Xena had with Gabrielle or Joxer. I don't see Kathleen as freaking out or wimpy, so much as concerned and inquisitive. IOW, she's not going to be the total bitch l we're used to seeing in the Alexis Carrington (?) mode. > > > > >Indeed, it may be that she consciously chose for Kathleen to appear > >spontaneous -- "unself-conscious" -- in her own home, as opposed to > >someone whose business persona *is* who they are, even "informally." Now > >that I've seen more of the domestic scenes with John, I'm thinking that's > >where Lucy's going, so the stair thing "fits" more to me. While I do > > --No, the stair-thang still doesn't look right to me, unless she _were_ in > the Olympics or an Amazon training camp. ;P I've rarely seen people climb > stairs that way, nor have I done so (at that speed) myself, even in > urgency. Even the maid didn't climb the stairs that way, and she was > subject to the same "emergency" circumstances as Kathleen. > > And _especially_ if she were a hardened businesswoman, she would be more > proper and concerned about not falling, looking the correct way, etc. Or, > how's about giving her character some time to react to the noise? Like, > stopping halfway up the stairs? That would've showed more reflection than > just a hop-skip-jump-and-voila! >> Yes, that's what I'm saying -- that this is *not* what I would expect if Kathleen was being developed as a carbon copy of her brother. We may be dealing with our preconceived notions of her as a "hardened" businesswoman. I haven't seen anything so far to suggest she's ruthless and greedy. Yes, she carried herself with an air of authority in her office and dealings with Richard and Jane, but she doesn't feel the need to promote that image all the time. That's the part that I think is very intentional, not "lost." I'm not sure if that's because she now has John in her life or not, but I do think Lucy is establishing a "connection" between Kathleen and John that goes beyond facade and image. I think John will be her Achilles heel as Gabs was for Xena, and that Kathleen will bolt up stairs or use roller skates if she has to, to make sure John is okay. > >At this point, for me anyway, it's more like, "Hmmm, wonder where she's > >going with that," rather than, "That didn't seem 'right'" or (a la > >Jackie), "She seem's 'lost." I figure she knows what she's doing. Not > > --LOL. ;) So now Ife's named a new critique style after me, eh?!? "A la > Jackie". LOL ;) >. A new critique *conclusion.* > > I guess, being the cynic I am, I just don't trust _any_one, not even LL. > ;P I didn't even agree with all of LL's acting choices in XWP; I'm not > about to "lay down" for her choices in Tarzan. ;P LOL << LOL! Like I said before, I'm trying to bring a blank slate, in terms of how Kathleen *ought* to behave. Like you, I still bring my own ideas. But at this early stage, I'm simply willing to consider alternatives if they make sense to what Lucy seems to be doing. Prior to the stairs thing, I hadn't seen anything to prepare me for that. Since then, I've seen a consistency to the more "loose" way Lucy plays Kathleen when John's around. I'm not saying the stair thing in itself was "right" or "wrong." I'm saying I see it now as part of a pattern Lucy's developing that indicates a very special and *genuine* relationship with John that is less self-conscious, more "natural" and relaxed. It's consistently there with John and consistently not there yet with others. If Lucy were to suddenly treat John like a bad employee, I'd now be more inclined to wonder if Kathleen felt threatened for some reason, rather than attribute it to Lucy playing the scene "wrong." > But LL's reactions still don't have that ring of truth to them yet, which > is why I'm uncomfortable. >> Now, that's a different issue to me, though that gives me a better idea of where you're coming from. I agree that Lucy's lines so far have been superficial to me, in terms of her being the "good gal." I can accept Richard's greed as "true" without any explanation whatsoever. But I need reasons for why somebody wants to give up a fortune. That, in turn, determines whether the reactions seem "true" to me. All we have about Kathleen as the "good gal" is that she wants to follow in her dead hero's footsteps, in terms of wanting the empire to treat folks well and give money to charity. Admittedly, if I listened only to her lines and didn't know she was being set up as John's protector, I'd question her motivation. The only reason they do have that "ring of truth" for me is because of the little ways Lucy is showing vulnerability and genuine affection for John. So if you don't believe what Lucy's doing, I can certainly understand why Kathleen doesn't "ring true." > > A good example is when Kate was reminiscing about her childhood with her > brother. If she was so young when her brother died, how could she've been > close to John to feel such warmth for him when they finally meet again? > And she must've run these memories through her mind when John's father > first died, so these memories would've been somewhat resolved, not as > "fresh" as she played them. For some reason, that scene just felt too > "pushed" to me. ;( >> Yes, I do think we were supposed to get an awful lot from those few scenes, with not much in the way of emotional backstory. What saved it for me was the feeling that Kathleen sees John as her connection to those warm memories, that he's why they have become "fresh" for her again. But that's because I believed Lucy was doing everything to portray it as genuine -- no undercurrents or studied looks like she had when talking to Richard about their childhood. Believe me, if I had only the dialogue or plot to go on, I wouldn't find much of Tarzan to feel "true" -- Kathleen included. :-) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #327 **************************************