From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #320 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, October 25 2003 Volume 03 : Number 320 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide ["mirrordrum" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:42:53 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide In a message dated 10/23/2003 2:47:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sgitzou@periaktoi.gr writes: > >Ife wrote: > >See, that's where KT would probably disagree, and I do too. > > I don't agree. What else could she do? Lead Gabrielle to her death? She was > half dead. How was supposed to protect her? On the other hand, this Xena > doesn't come though the experience and the feelings the real Xena has. She > is not exactly the same person, she can't act the same way. >> I believe there are always choices and that opportunity is in the eye of the beholder. I'm agreeing with KT that "true" Xena would've seen opportunities and chosen to try them rather than accept defeat. I think KT believes that the core of "true" Xena would've been there no matter what, in which case she would've found something "else" to do. I'm agreeing with you that *this* Xena saw no other recourse because she *was* different from "true" Xena. She had "true" Xena's courage and heart, but not the experiences that would have led her to deal with Caesar before it was too late. I guess I'm saying the choice she made was based on what her own life had taught her, not on the lack of choices. I understand what you mean. I make the distinction only because I think it's fundamental to why KT doesn't find credibility in Xena's accepting that she had only one way out. > < her life. But her knowledge puts in danger the other woman. What can she do? > Murder Caesar? It could be easy for the other Xena. Maybe the other Xena > would take Gabrielle and leave without fear. But what about her? What does > she know anyway? >> Yes. This is how I see it too. > > "When fates collide" is a story for the non stopping of the true love. That > soulmates finds each other even if the world change from the begining. A > story that heart never loses her way.. BUT if the earth doesn't turn the > right way not even true love can live. >> Again, I agree. I think the ep also shows that true love isn't "real" if you somehow deny the pain and hardships that might lie beneath as well. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:04:13 -0400 From: "mirrordrum" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 12:42 AM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide > In a message dated 10/23/2003 2:47:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > sgitzou@periaktoi.gr writes: > > > >Ife wrote in response to Sophia: > > > < > her life. But her knowledge puts in danger the other woman. What can she do? > > Murder Caesar? It could be easy for the other Xena. Maybe the other Xena > > would take Gabrielle and leave without fear. But what about her? What does > > she know anyway? >> > > Yes. This is how I see it too. > > > > > "When fates collide" is a story for the non stopping of the true love. That > > soulmates finds each other even if the world change from the begining. A > > story that heart never loses her way.. BUT if the earth doesn't turn the > > right way not even true love can live. >> > > > Again, I agree. I think the ep also shows that true love isn't "real" if you > somehow deny the pain and hardships that might lie beneath as well. i agree with what you say in real life, but how do you see demonstrating this? i don't see it myself. i'm not being argumentative, just curious. i'm also not a believer in the soulmates idea. i agree, though, that it's canon--that it's a basic assumption of the show that xena and gab will be connected eternally as "soulmates" and that's fine, though it really sounds quite exhausting. ;) in the strange universe of , however, i think the entire concept of "soulmates" is actually deconstructed since (as i said in the previous post) i think the bond is primarily driven by who xena is. my impression is that no matter how many times they come back, xena will *always* be xena. in caesar's little world, he makes xena not xena and, to my way of thinking, gab not gab. so for me it doesn't really demonstrate anything. i simply could never buy that these two people were the same "souls" that we see in or or even and . md--who can't believe she's involved in a conversation about FATES ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:26:57 -0400 From: "mirrordrum" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Mike Quick caps from Warrior Woman the incomparable mike quick has posted caps from lucy in the grace o'malley "warrior women" ep on abmxh, if anybody's interested. that's alt.binaries.multimedia.xena-herc. the caps were posted on the 22nd. they're a bit hard to find but look for the date and then they're between two sets that are supposed to be caps from tarzan but appear as gibberish. i don't know if he's going to post them on his site or not and at the rate people are posting caps, attachments are geting stripped off pretty fast--at least by my ISP. so if you're interested, check them out. mike does good caps. these are all between 100-150 kb. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:33:25 -0500 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide At 12:56 AM 10/24/2003 +0300, you wrote: > >Ife wrote: > > See, that's where KT would probably disagree, and I do too. [snipped part of Sophia's beautiful post about WFC, only to the point:] >If you join all the "if" of your life, you will create another life. > >"When fates collide" is a story for the non stopping of the true love. That >soulmates finds each other even if the world change from the begining. A >story that heart never loses her way.. BUT if the earth doesn't turn the >right way not even true love can live. > >Sophia Gods, thank you Sophia! :) You have hit the nail right smack on the head for me. This is what When Fates Collide has always been about, or at least what I have understood it to be about. It is a beautiful love story between 2 people and it is a beautiful love story between 2 souls who cannot be separated no matter where or when or what. I am really not into love stories. I would much rather cuddle up to my honey with a copy of Resident Evil than a copy of Better Than Chocolate. S'just how I am. But WFC appeals to me. When Fates Collide, though, had another element in it that made me love it, and that was that I had already grown to love the characters involved. I was invested in their story, and by that time, invested in the idea that these 2 *souls* could not be separated. And because souls are more of an idea than a tangible asset, the idea is one that can reach all corners of time and space, cross all boundaries, and never truly die. That's a big "if" to say that souls can find each other, whether or not they know it, across all time, anywhere. It's a beautiful thought, and one that I even sort of believe in - that we're all old souls, and we're all in the same company we've always been in, but we may not always (or ever) be aware of it. That said, the soul must be a perfect, incredibly sensitive embodiment of absolute to always know where its counterpart lies even while spending time poking around in an imperfect, flawed human body for 80 years at a time. In a different time, one of those big "if"s, this was Xena and Gabrielle - just as this was Xena and Gabrielle in the Hercules' "Apocalypse Now" and Xena and Gabrielle in "Remember Nothing". I think the message was that souls can be bound together through anything, and the message in WFC was that the job of recognizing that, and accepting or rejecting the consequences of that, falls to our very (flawed but noble) human existence. Steph ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:50:58 +0300 From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide >Ife wrote > I believe there are always choices and that opportunity is in the eye of the > beholder. I'm agreeing with KT that "true" Xena would've seen opportunities > and chosen to try them rather than accept defeat. I think KT believes that > the core of "true" Xena would've been there no matter what, in which case she > would've found something "else" to do. It's a point of view and it's good to have many points of view. My point has its base to the fact that experiences make us what we are. > I think the ep also shows that true love isn't "real" if you > somehow deny the pain and hardships that might lie beneath as well. That's true too and I agree with you. Sophia > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:51:02 +0300 From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide >md wrote: > i'm also not a believer in the soulmates idea. i agree, though, that it's > canon--that it's a basic assumption of the show that xena and gab will be > connected eternally as "soulmates" and that's fine, though it really sounds > quite exhausting. ;) Yes I'm not a strong believer of the soulmate idea in our real life too. But I can accept it in the show because it is a tale and all tales express our hidden desires. I believe everyone seeks the ideal relationship, the ideal love or the ideal person. It is reassuring to believe that somewhere in the universe or sometime in the endless time there's something to fit perfectly to your heart. It makes you try to find it and that quest gives you experiences and makes you complete. >i simply > could never buy that these two people were the same "souls" that we see in > or or even and . Yes they aren't exactly the same souls. That's why they act differently with the souls we know. Everything is wrong in a wrong world. Everyone in the end of Caesar's world dies. Do you thing it's accidental? > md--who can't believe she's involved in a conversation about FATES gods help me> Why? Everything in this world has a reason for being the way it is. And you can call it whatever you want fate, destiny, god etc. And I believe man's will is a very strong reason. Sophia > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:51:46 +0300 From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide >md wrote: > sophia, this is a fascinating post. THANK YOU! > i don't like fates collide> and yet this is probably one of the best posts i've seen in > its defense. i think is one of those eps that one either loves or > hates That's a strong truth. Isn't it amazing? That makes people different, the things they love or hate. >my favorite line is: > > > If you join all the "if" of your life, you will create another life. > > brilliant. :) This line is said from a very good Greek author. It is from one of her best books and it is a line that I'll never forget and I keep thinking it many times. >conceding that, i still found the > beginning decidedly irksome. caesar is suddenly loom editor, leaving little > snippets on the cutting room floor of life? pfui! first of all HE'S DEAD. > oh, i know, nobody stays dead but really. Hey if we start thinking like this then we'll have many thinks to say and for many episodes. > oh, and to address one of sophia's points, sophia makes the assumption that > the xena in wouldn't have had battle experience. i think the context > argues against that. a commander of the troops and one beloved of troops and > all of rome, sufficiently exhaulted as a commander that she gets to go > before the senate to champion her latest request for an increase in military > spending (do i remember that correctly?), she has certainly been in plenty > of battles and that means she's fought and killed and that she is very > clearly a warrior. in the beginning, she clearly demonstrates that good old > "take one me" attitude and i have no doubt that the xena we know and love > could have taken on both alti and the soldiers at the end there. she just > didn't and i'm blessed if i know why. also i expressed doubts at the time, > and still have them, about the fervor with which the troops who loved her > would have been quite so eager to do her in, caesar or no caesar. *our* xena > would have turned them against caesar with her incomparable skills. pah! See, you say it of yourself: *our* xena. Of course I agree that she is a perfect warrior. Excelent techinacal skills and a great commander. But what are her experiences? War with helpless towns which she want to add in her teritory. Useless armies who want to defeat Rome? What else? What more than that? *Our* Xena has fought the most dangerous warlods of the world, monsters, gods, curses and all these before she met Gabrielle. Don't all these count on her experience? She was only an ambitious pirate who want to conquer the world when she joined Caesar. Then she married him. She created the most powerful army, added teritories to her empire. But nothing more than that. > based on caesar's loom tape editing, it would also seem that the xena caesar > met who was ornery, piratical, and set to conquer the world is the one with > whom he hitched up in this alternative universe. so she shouldn't be viewed > as someone with an empty life, in my view. she's a violent sort, at least to > some extent. dark side and all that. an empress rather than a princess, but > a warrior for all that. Does she conquer the world after that? Caesar lied to her only to have her and her skills. She is not even so dark. Her hate made true Xena dark. That Xena doesn't hate. She has only this lust for power and war. And she doesn't really have what she wanted when she joined Caesar. I really believe she lived an empty life. Maybe I can't express it right to you but I really believe it. This is the feeling I take when I see her on the episode. >she can't be beloved of the people > and a commander without a backstory. gabrielle can't live in a vineyard and > be a *cough* celebrated playwrite in athens without backstory. so they've > lived something. That's right. That is exactly what I'm saying. That they have lived something. They have backstory. But this something is different and that's why they are different persons. > xena was at the end of her tether when she met gabrielle not because she was > a woman without passion or fervor but because she was a woman in search of a > redemption and meaning she couldn't find; she was a woman with an excess of > passion. to me, that's a definining characteristic of xena that no > loom-editing would or could remove. how she expressed her passions might be > changed, but her passion and her consumate skills as a warrior and commander > would not themselves be altered. had this happened, she wouldn't have been > in the position in which we find her in the beginning of , haring > around on horseback, doing flips, ululating, knocking down the praetorian > guard (or whoever they were) and zipping arrows at caesar. now that's xena. > I agree she has her skills. That doesn't change. When she met Caesar she had them and when she crucified on the beach she started a iourney that awake them. Although this journey had already started. But in Caesar's world she couldn't awake all of her skills. Caesar didn't want Xena to be the boss of course. > all that mooning about over a sappy play and draping and swooning on > balconies on xena's part is so much horse pucky, imo. and as far as being > drawn to gab, if there was one thing that attracted xena to gabrielle as an > individual it was gab's stroppiness and pluck. she wouldn't have given that > simpy playwrite a second glance, fate or no fate. and no one will convince > me that xena, no matter how much loom footage caesar clipped, would develop > an interest in theatre. she would always be a woman of action. this is the > woman who uses scrolls for toilet paper, fer zeus' sake. need i say more? No one said that she develop intrest in theater. But I could tell you some things more why she gave the playwrite a second glance in my opinion. > thank you. i feel much better. i just needed to say that out loud. And thank you. I needed to hear all these. > and sophia, i still think yours is a fine post. i just don't happen to agree > with a lot of it. ;) Yours is a fine post too. There weren't more to say to you. It's your opinion and I respect it. I gave mine where I thought I could. You do the right and disagree with me and I can understand why. Sophia > > ========================================================= > > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:37:42 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide In a message dated 10/24/03 9:41:01 AM Central Daylight Time, sgitzou@periaktoi.gr writes: >Ife wrote > I believe there are always choices and that opportunity is in the eye of the > beholder. I'm agreeing with KT that "true" Xena would've seen opportunities > and chosen to try them rather than accept defeat. I think KT believes that > the core of "true" Xena would've been there no matter what, in which case she > would've found something "else" to do. It's a point of view and it's good to have many points of view. My point has its base to the fact that experiences make us what we are. >> Yes, mine as well. You express that wonderfully in the post to md, where you point out the differences even in battle experiences between "real" Xena and Fates Xena. Maybe Fates Xena fought for the Roman Empire, but she didn't have the experiences Xena did of marshalling all sorts of people to fight against all sorts of enemies, or of having to battle many of those enemies alone. Nor did Fates Xena give birth to a child in the middle of a battle or have to battle gods to protect that child. Far as we know, Fates Xena wasn't put through a gauntlet by her own men, let alone crucified by the man she wanted to partner up with. No matter what skills and attitudes we begin with, they are always influenced by our experiences, by what works in one situation but might be totally wrong in another. I have to admit, my acceptance of Fates Xena was based more on the *possibility* that she could be different from "true" Xena. Your post made me believe it more as a *probability* of what would happen in that situation. -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:37:46 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide In a message dated 10/23/03 10:49:03 PM Central Daylight Time, aemoses@comcast.net writes: << xena was at the end of her tether when she met gabrielle not because she was a woman without passion or fervor but because she was a woman in search of a redemption and meaning she couldn't find; she was a woman with an excess of passion. to me, that's a definining characteristic of xena that no loom-editing would or could remove. how she expressed her passions might be changed, but her passion and her consumate skills as a warrior and commander would not themselves be altered. >> You know, you've made an interesting parallel there that I think underscores Sophia's point about experiences shaping a different Xena. I personally don't see how you can separate Reformed Xena's passion from her need for meaning. Evil Xena expressed what I suppose could be called "passion" in terms of rage and physical satisfaction that had little meaning beyond immediate gratification. Her passion for knowledge and to excel was twisted into a weapon for gaining more power. Yes, she still had that passion when she buried her weapons in SOP, but there's the strong implication that she had given up on expressing that passion as a warrior -- the heart and soul of who she was -- even if she wasn't ready to end her life. I think the encounter with Gabrielle & co. reminded Xena that there were good people worth being alive to save, good battles worth fighting for and dying in. Without that meaning, what *good* was her passion? What reason was there for her not to slide back into allowing it evil outlets? I'm not sure why you say Fates Xena didn't have passion. True, there's little on screen to prove she expressed her passion in either predominately bad or good ways. We could assume some of both from her position and the comments about being admired. Mostly I saw it expressed in more neutral ways -- e.g., her love of battle and need to be the best at what she did. The deference she showed to the emmisaries from Chin, as well as her snide comments about plays, suggested she exposed herself to culture as befitted her position, even if she disdained some of it. I'm thinking now that Fates Xena was indeed a lot like Reformed Xena at the beginning of SOP. Both had recently learned something about who they were and/or wanted to be, which completely changed their concept about the purpose of - -- the *meaning* in -- their lives. Neither was quite sure what to do about it. They saw no reason to go on as they had (as a warrior in one case, as the Empress in the other). KT will thump my head for saying this, but in both cases Gabrielle was the vehicle for Xena's being able to express her passion as she was *meant* to. I can't claim to have appreciated the love angle as Sophia (and probably most Gabfans) did in the beginning. For me, it started out as a cute (and sometimes boring) sidelight to Xena's quest to be a warrior for good. It's not until I realized that the love was integral to Xena's ability to achieve her warrior quest at its highest level, that I began to appreciate Gabrielle's role in that. Gabrielle wasn't a distraction or competition for that quest, but the personification of love's inspiration, the source for much of its meaning (in Xena's love for her, in her articulation, in her example and ideals). Now that you've led me to compare Fates with SOP, I think it's particularly fitting that Gabs would be the one to give Xena another chance to be her "true" self. It was "accidental" both times, yet apparently destined. For some fans, the soulmate "love" in that theme is sufficient in itself. For me, the beauty is that it was also re-established in Fates as inextricably bound with Xena's on-going self-actualization as a warrior for good. Which is probably the main reason I can accept the choices Xena and Gabrielle ultimately made in AFIN. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:16:09 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide In a message dated 10/24/03 1:07:03 AM Central Daylight Time, aemoses@comcast.net writes: Ife said: << I think the ep also shows that true love isn't "real" if you > somehow deny the pain and hardships that might lie beneath as well. i agree with what you say in real life, but how do you see demonstrating this? i don't see it myself. i'm not being argumentative, just curious. >> Fates initially showed us a lot of fairly superficial romance stuff between X&G (e.g., eye locks, gasps, shy conversations, "instant" attraction). We had beautiful gowns, standing out on balconies in the moonlight, etc. A very lovely veneer, with each effusively and uncritically admiring what she saw/knew of the other at the time. What was missing were all the conflicts, tragedies, betrayals, etc. they'd gone through that tested and strengthened that love -- that gave it real meaning. They'd literally been through just about every "hell" of their own and others' making. They see bad things happening to them in the flashbacks, along with commiting themselves to each other in the face of death. Fates could've shown Xena whisking Gabs away to the bard's seaside retreat -- an ending which would've perfectly befitted the romantic stuff we saw at first. They could've been happy that they escaped some of the terrible things they now knew they had suffered. Instead, we see them choosing to die rather than accept a life that wasn't based on what they'd really been through -- even though they might've created a new one that was more idyllic, where they tried to avoid conflict between themselves or missions where one of them might be hurt. I'm not saying "true" love isn't real if it isn't tested or full of all the pain X&G suffered. I'm saying that X&G's choice to give up the nicey-nice love we saw in Fates says to me that it wasn't "complete," "right" or "true" to them without the bad stuff as well. It wasn't "good enough" to form the basis for keeping the relationship they'd been introduced to in Fates. Clearer? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #320 **************************************