From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #319 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, October 24 2003 Volume 03 : Number 319 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re: O/S Tarzan [cande@sunlink.net] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: O/S Tarzan [Meredith Tarr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: O/S Tarzan [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] O/S Tarzan ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide ["mirrordrum" Gabrielle felt that there was something she could do and she had the > opportunity to do it. Xena didn't have it. > See, that's where KT would probably disagree, and I do too. The "other" Xena was always looking for options, putting herself in position for another round, even if she wasn't sure of the outcome. She might've recruited loyal guards to help her or stabbed Caesar herself. Maybe this Xena didn't realize she couldn't trust Caesar to keep his word, until too late. Whatever, she seemed initially resigned to letting her and Gabrielle's lives play out -- separately - -- as long as the bard was safe. Yes, she fought to save Gabrielle, but she seemed to believe that her own escape had to be through death, which I don't think she thought would change anything except taking her off Caesar's fake stage. Mind you, unlike KT, I don't have a problem with this Xena behaving differently, as I believe the memories that came to her couldn't make up for a lifetime of actually experiencing them of being the self she saw. Like Gabrielle's words, Xena's memories may have had little depth besides what she felt for Gabrielle. I do agree with KT that even this Xena could've *made* other opportunities, but chose not to try. And I don't see that as inconsistent with the profound sense of loss ("true" past, present and future) that drove these versions of Xena and Gabrielle to end the "wrong" life Ceasar had bestowed on everyone. - Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:44:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: O/S Tarzan - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:26:41 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:27:49 EDT, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >No, I'm not too hopeful about all this. By the time Lucy figures out how >her character should run up stairs, it may not really matter. Whatever >optimism I have is based on her, and I just don't see that her screen >time, lines, colleagues, or context will provide much help. - - --Nah, nah, nah, nah. ;P I _toldja_ she was pretty bad, Ife. ;P (And not that I'm _hoping_ she is--them's just "the facts". ;( ) I'm glad someone else other than moi caught that phoney run up the stairs. ;P Where did she think she was--the Olympics?!? Or an Amazon training camp?!? Jeeze are we now going to critize how the woman climbs up and down stairs. What didn't go up or down the stairs with sincerity or with enough urgency - for Pete's sake they are just stairs. You can't et a lot of emotion in stair climbing. Although I agree *our grrrl* doesn't have a lot of screen time, she's gotta make lemonade outta lemons. A XWP teaser lasts all of 5 mins., so she's captivated us in that amount of time before. And IMO she doesn't need a lot of time to do it. But for some reason she's not doing it. ;( One thing that isn't helping is she's using her Meg voice. Frankly I don't hear her Meg" voice at all. It certainly isn't Xena but I think it's just Lucy's voice. And, she needs to make more out of the situations she's given. Like the car scene with Jane could've been quite charismatic or explosive, but it just became whiney. Same with the bedroom scene when Tarzie was having his temper tantrum and wanted to get outta there. She coulda acted more matronly, but instead got freaky-scared. It would be entirely out of character for Kate to suddenly be matronly. She isn't Tarzan's mother - she is his aunt. A young aunt who was probably just a teen-ager when he disappeared. She doesn't know this guy and suddenly he is tearing up her house. Why wouldn't she be scared? That's a reasonable reaction. She is probabaly thinking what the heck have I gotten myself into. She is slowly trying to win his trust. She is gentling him into accepting her. It is appropriate that she approaches him slowly - he is afterall supposedly like wild animal - she needs to be quiet with him. Ilike te scene on the roof at this episodes end. It had a nice gentle quality. I think there is some kind expectation that Lucy is going to take over this show. It is not her show - she is there to support young actors in their first big break. It is not her job to upstage them - it is her job to support them. I think she is doing this. As far as I know no one as every accused her of being a selfish actor - she knows her place and that is to support the stars. As time goes on her role may expand. It depends on how the show goes This isn't the greatest show on TV by any means. but this is a big show for the WB. It has a well-known producer and the network seems to be really trying to sell it. This isn't a slock show. It may be a failure but I think the WB is trying to make a good product here. As a career step for Lucy I think it is good. She is certainly doing her part to sell the show and that should get her in good with the network. Lucy wants to work and as she said she was concerned that she wouldn't work again (all actors fear this when projects end). This probably gives her a good paycheck, time with her family, and very different acting experience from Xena. The assumption the woman "never has to work again" is a big assumption - she gets paid well but agents and other people who work for her get a part of her pay so don't assume she independently wealthy. I persoanlly think she is doing a pretty good job with a role that is after all still in development. One that she got at the very last minute and in show that is obviously in trouble. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:13:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Meredith Tarr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: O/S Tarzan Hi, Since I was home sick yesterday I took the opportunity to watch the first two episodes of _Tarzan_ (I'm a week behind because of the _Alias_ conflict). It's a pretty bad show (though not as bad as I'd feared, from reading the comments here), but Lucy is certainly one of the highlights. I do think that people need to ratchet down their expectations a bit. She's playing a supporting role on a very poorly-scripted melodrama (seriously, I was saying most of the lines a second before they got delivered onscreen). It's probably not going to last more than a dozen episodes anyway, so let's just enjoy what screen time she does get. Who knows when we'll see her again. Just because she has a rumored "development deal" for next season, that doesn't mean she is assured that whatever show comes out of it will actually see the light of day (though if they'll green-light "Calvin Klein Models Of The Concrete Jungle", they'll obviously give pretty much anything a go!). Meredith meth@smoe.org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:07:50 -0500 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: O/S Tarzan At 01:44 PM 10/23/2003 -0400, cande@sunlink.net wrote, quoting people who said: >------------------------------ > ><< I'm glad someone else other than moi caught that phoney run up the stairs. >;P Where did she think she was--the Olympics?!? Or an Amazon training >camp?!? >> > >Jeeze are we now going to critize how the woman climbs up and down >stairs. What didn't go up or down the stairs with sincerity or with >enough urgency - for Pete's sake they are just stairs. You can't et a lot >of emotion in stair climbing. On the Buffy list I'm on, they blow entire weeks discussing character hairstyles, and even have flame wars about them. Hah. Good times. I didn't think anything of the stair-running til someone brought it up. But I still don't actually think anything of it... :) >Frankly I don't hear her Meg" voice at all. It certainly isn't Xena but I >think it's just Lucy's voice. I heard her 'Xena voice' at first, then I quickly corrected myself that, uhm, different show. ;> ><< And, she needs to make more out of the situations she's given. Like the >car scene with Jane could've been quite charismatic or explosive, but it >just became whiney. Same with the bedroom scene when Tarzie was having >his temper tantrum and wanted to get outta there. She coulda acted more >matronly, but instead got freaky-scared. >> She mighta just been following direction, too. "Luce, dear, cut with the charismatic and explosive, here. We're going for whiney, thanks babe. Action!" >I persoanlly think she is doing a pretty good job with a role that is >after all still in development. One that she got at the very last minute >and in show that is obviously in trouble. > >CherylA Yeh, she's doin' okay. I'm not expecting whole huge bags of fireworks, mainly because I hate tv anymore and think it's all a buncha crap and drivel. But I think Lucy's holding her own fairly well and I have nothing bad to say about her or Travis, who I was ready to dis at the drop of a hat when the show started. Travis is okay, I guess, though Tarzan kinda creeps me out with his Jane-stalking thing. Anyhoo. Not much else to say about Tarzan. It's okay so far, and so is Lucy's acting. S. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:56:29 +0300 From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide >Ife wrote: > See, that's where KT would probably disagree, and I do too. I don't agree. What else could she do? Lead Gabrielle to her death? She was half dead. How was supposed to protect her? On the other hand, this Xena doesn't come though the experience and the feelings the real Xena has. She is not exactly the same person, she can't act the same way. This Xena never came to be crucified by Caesar, hate to death Caesar, fill hate her soul, slaughter whole nations for fan, then regret for all these, sick of herself, and in the end be saved by a woman and the relationship with her. This Xena is just an empress, with talent in war, commander of Roman army. She live an empty of feelings life. She is married a bad man who she doesn't love. But she doesn't let herself to accept al these. She is miserable but try not to accept it. Remember what she answered to Caesar on the bed champer. And then a girl come to her life and she almost scared of what she is feeling for her. Later finds out that life with so many lies, betrayals and misery isn't her life. But her knowledge puts in danger the other woman. What can she do? Murder Caesar? It could be easy for the other Xena. Maybe the other Xena would take Gabrielle and leave without fear. But what about her? What does she know anyway? She fight Caesar but she is beaten to death. She doesn't even have the exprience as a warrior as the real Xena. The real Xena wouldn't be beaten so hard. Gabrielle's rescue now is only through Xena's death. She didn't believe that she can return in her real life neither Gabrielle do and that's the key, friend. But anyway when Xena in her real life put her life above of Gabrielle's safety. If you join all the "if" of your life, you will create another life. "When fates collide" is a story for the non stopping of the true love. That soulmates finds each other even if the world change from the begining. A story that heart never loses her way.. BUT if the earth doesn't turn the right way not even true love can live. Sophia > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:04:24 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: O/S Tarzan In a message dated 10/23/03 2:04:41 PM Central Daylight Time, sswilso@uark.edu writes: Cande said: << >Jeeze are we now going to critize how the woman climbs up and down >stairs. What didn't go up or down the stairs with sincerity or with >enough urgency - for Pete's sake they are just stairs. You can't et a lot >of emotion in stair climbing. On the Buffy list I'm on, they blow entire weeks discussing character hairstyles, and even have flame wars about them. Hah. Good times. >> LOL! As the culprit who first mentioned the stair-climbing, my only excuse is that I just happen to notice physical stuff like that. If Lucy had simply walked up very fast, it would've seemed perfectly normal. But she sprinted up in such a way that it looked either purposeful (e.g., "I'm trying to show Katherine as fit, take charge or something equally strong") or like herself or Xena. I'm just sayin' it looked a little odd to me, made me wonder a little what Lucy was up to. I've been talking about her work ethic and the seriousness she'd bring to even a bit part. But tell the truth, it looked like she was having fun running up those stairs however she had a mind to. << I didn't think anything of the stair-running til someone brought it up. But I still don't actually think anything of it... :) << Slo-mo, binoculars and nothing better to look at that night might help. ><< And, she needs to make more out of the situations she's given. Like the >car scene with Jane could've been quite charismatic or explosive, but it >just became whiney. Same with the bedroom scene when Tarzie was having >his temper tantrum and wanted to get outta there. She coulda acted more >matronly, but instead got freaky-scared. >> She mighta just been following direction, too. "Luce, dear, cut with the charismatic and explosive, here. We're going for whiney, thanks babe. Action!" >> LOL! << Yeh, she's doin' okay. I'm not expecting whole huge bags of fireworks, mainly because I hate tv anymore and think it's all a buncha crap and drivel. But I think Lucy's holding her own fairly well and I have nothing bad to say about her or Travis, who I was ready to dis at the drop of a hat when the show started. Travis is okay, I guess, though Tarzan kinda creeps me out with his Jane-stalking thing. >> My sentiments as well. I wonder if Travis thought of being an actor before .... No I dont. I was trying to be charitable. :-) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:45:39 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] O/S Tarzan I was reading the blurb on this Sunday's episode and it looks like we are going to start on the conflict between Richard and Kate so perhaps Lucy will have a bit more to do this week. Also a repeat of last weeks show will be on the WB on Sunday at 5PM. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:38:38 -0400 From: "mirrordrum" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide sophia, this is a fascinating post. i so enjoyed it. i don't like and yet this is probably one of the best posts i've seen in its defense. i think is one of those eps that one either loves or hates--or at least thoroughly dislikes. my favorite line is: > If you join all the "if" of your life, you will create another life. brilliant. :) as much as i liked your post, however, i don't agree with your conclusions, if i understand them. i don't like because all the premises, the arguments, of the episode seem to unravel like the fates' loom. and it doesn't start out on a terribly sound footing. given that this is the xenaverse (by "xenaverse," thelo, i mean the universe of xena and all that it encompasses, not just the list), naturally one expects YAXI out the wazoo. conceding that, i still found the beginning decidedly irksome. caesar is suddenly loom editor, leaving little snippets on the cutting room floor of life? pfui! first of all HE'S DEAD. oh, i know, nobody stays dead but really. and then we have the fates telling caesar a) that one can't change one's destiny once it has been chosen and then 2) that if he tampers with the loom he'll change not only his destiny but everyone else's--the very fabric of things. i detect a bit of waffling here. so i started out a bit cranky about it. for me, waffles all the way through. it suggests that although everything changes the outcome sort of remains the same. soulmates are soulmates however insipid (yawn) and caesar's just a stinker. i think that's the argument for why xena has to get crucified, btw. the fate that they can't seem to escape (according to ms. fugate) is being stabbed to death by somebody in caesar's case and another wet shoot for lucy--er, spikes in the palms for xena. whatever. and gabrielle serves as the deus ex machina which is rather an unusual role for her, actually. xena doesn't usually need one. and insipid is the word i've been looking for. gabrielle is insipid, her play is insipid, and despite lucy's best efforts, xena is fairly insipid--in the sense of diluted, relatively bland. looks nice on the horsey in the leathers and all but. . .she ain't xener. it's not the acting i'm talking about but the part, the characterization. blech! oh, and to address one of sophia's points, sophia makes the assumption that the xena in wouldn't have had battle experience. i think the context argues against that. a commander of the troops and one beloved of troops and all of rome, sufficiently exhaulted as a commander that she gets to go before the senate to champion her latest request for an increase in military spending (do i remember that correctly?), she has certainly been in plenty of battles and that means she's fought and killed and that she is very clearly a warrior. in the beginning, she clearly demonstrates that good old "take one me" attitude and i have no doubt that the xena we know and love could have taken on both alti and the soldiers at the end there. she just didn't and i'm blessed if i know why. also i expressed doubts at the time, and still have them, about the fervor with which the troops who loved her would have been quite so eager to do her in, caesar or no caesar. *our* xena would have turned them against caesar with her incomparable skills. pah! based on caesar's loom tape editing, it would also seem that the xena caesar met who was ornery, piratical, and set to conquer the world is the one with whom he hitched up in this alternative universe. so she shouldn't be viewed as someone with an empty life, in my view. she's a violent sort, at least to some extent. dark side and all that. an empress rather than a princess, but a warrior for all that. indeed, what she's presumably missed have been the tempering influences of lao ma, naiyima, akemi, the amazons, herc, her mom, her daughter, her son and gabrielle. of course, she's also missed a lot of grief and angst of one sort and another. but a backstory is implied--at least to my mind. it's ignored, but i think has to be inferred. she can't be beloved of the people and a commander without a backstory. gabrielle can't live in a vineyard and be a *cough* celebrated playwrite in athens without backstory. so they've lived something. gabrielle feeling empty i can understand for a lot of reasons. i'd buy that, given gab's role. gab is "jedermann." she's not the hero. the hero is archetypal and while subject to the slings and arrows and, in the greek sense, certainly heir to tragedy, the hero is *not* everyone. xena is the hero so, imo, she has to stay the same in her essence. she may suffer, she may have flaws, fatal flaws and xena does. but she is above everything but her moira, her fate. and her fate, her moira, would be the scope of what is possible for her to accomplish, those limits beyond which, as a mortal, she can't go. that's something separate, to my way of thinking, from who she ends up with. it's about something larger. am i totally off the wall here? i think somehow that the idea of xena and gabrielle as soulmates, whatever the hell that means, flows from xena's fate rather than being the driving force of it. mind you, sophia, i agree that xena's experiences would have been different and certainly those things you describe as missing were indeed absent. however, xena was a warrior and a very good one before lao ma, before any of these other characters and before all her caesar-induced suffering. she was a woman of passion long before she met gabrielle. if gabrielle did anything, it was to occasionally channel her passion. i use the word "passion" in its broader sense here, not exclusively as a synonym for sexual fervor. xena was at the end of her tether when she met gabrielle not because she was a woman without passion or fervor but because she was a woman in search of a redemption and meaning she couldn't find; she was a woman with an excess of passion. to me, that's a definining characteristic of xena that no loom-editing would or could remove. how she expressed her passions might be changed, but her passion and her consumate skills as a warrior and commander would not themselves be altered. had this happened, she wouldn't have been in the position in which we find her in the beginning of , haring around on horseback, doing flips, ululating, knocking down the praetorian guard (or whoever they were) and zipping arrows at caesar. now that's xena. all that mooning about over a sappy play and draping and swooning on balconies on xena's part is so much horse pucky, imo. and as far as being drawn to gab, if there was one thing that attracted xena to gabrielle as an individual it was gab's stroppiness and pluck. she wouldn't have given that simpy playwrite a second glance, fate or no fate. and no one will convince me that xena, no matter how much loom footage caesar clipped, would develop an interest in theatre. she would always be a woman of action. this is the woman who uses scrolls for toilet paper, fer zeus' sake. need i say more? thank you. i feel much better. i just needed to say that out loud. and sophia, i still think yours is a fine post. i just don't happen to agree with a lot of it. ;) md - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide > >Ife wrote: > > See, that's where KT would probably disagree, and I do too. > > I don't agree. What else could she do? Lead Gabrielle to her death? She was > half dead. How was supposed to protect her? On the other hand, this Xena > doesn't come though the experience and the feelings the real Xena has. She > is not exactly the same person, she can't act the same way. This Xena never > came to be crucified by Caesar, hate to death Caesar, fill hate her soul, > slaughter whole nations for fan, then regret for all these, sick of herself, > and in the end be saved by a woman and the relationship with her. This Xena > is just an empress, with talent in war, commander of Roman army. She live an > empty of feelings life. She is married a bad man who she doesn't love. But > she doesn't let herself to accept al these. She is miserable but try not to > accept it. Remember what she answered to Caesar on the bed champer. And then > a girl come to her life and she almost scared of what she is feeling for > her. Later finds out that life with so many lies, betrayals and misery isn't > her life. But her knowledge puts in danger the other woman. What can she do? > Murder Caesar? It could be easy for the other Xena. Maybe the other Xena > would take Gabrielle and leave without fear. But what about her? What does > she know anyway? She fight Caesar but she is beaten to death. She doesn't > even have the exprience as a warrior as the real Xena. The real Xena > wouldn't be beaten so hard. Gabrielle's rescue now is only through Xena's > death. She didn't believe that she can return in her real life neither > Gabrielle do and that's the key, friend. > But anyway when Xena in her real life put her life above of Gabrielle's > safety. > > If you join all the "if" of your life, you will create another life. > > "When fates collide" is a story for the non stopping of the true love. That > soulmates finds each other even if the world change from the begining. A > story that heart never loses her way.. BUT if the earth doesn't turn the > right way not even true love can live. > > Sophia > > > ========================================================= > > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > > ========================================================= > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #319 **************************************