From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #316 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, October 21 2003 Volume 03 : Number 316 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan [was: OS: Charmed and Tarzan] [IfeRae@a] Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan [was: OS: Charmed and Tarzan] [IfeRae@a] Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan [was: OS: Charmed and Tarzan] [IfeRae@a] Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan [was: OS: Charmed and Tarzan] [IfeRae@a] [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 1 [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 2 [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 3 [KTL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:27:49 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan [was: OS: Charmed and Tarzan] In a message dated 10/20/2003 7:12:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, leedaley@optonline.net writes: > But I was struck with a > feeling that this was two dissimilar episodes inexpertly glued > together. You gave up right at the end of the first "episode". I reacted > to the first half with "What in Hades is this, "Tarzan, The Music > Video?". The second half seemed to have a different direction and filming > technique, and less music. It also actually had a small glimmer of hope. > I'll be giving this puppy a few more episodes before I write it off (which > I was willing to do after the second episode). > > I reviewed the third ep. Okay, to be honest, I fast-forwarded through almost everything but Lucy's parts. Heh. Anyway, I not only felt like I was watching "dissimilar" eps within one, but that Lucy's parts were kind of stuck in (which is perhaps what they had to do at that point). I liked what Lucy did at the end, with the little "will you stay" part with John. She makes Katherine more vulnerable with him, actually rather excited that he might stay with her, maybe add a little more innocence (heh) and meaning to her life. Hmmm, sounds familiar for some reason. That said, even I of the Glass Half Full School of Rationalization can't make much more of the "glimmer" you saw. I fear we've seen Tarzan's full range of emotions already. I'm not sure I can bear another of those squinty-eyed adolescent pouts he seems stuck in with Auntie. And that crouch with one arm behind is starting to look like it belongs on a billboard for ... something. Jane's also starting to recycle expressions -- the wide-eyed "what the hell am I doing" one being most used. No, I'm not too hopeful about all this. By the time Lucy figures out how her character should run up stairs, it may not really matter. Whatever optimism I have is based on her, and I just don't see that her screen time, lines, colleagues, or context will provide much help. I still believe she's doing her best, but not that it'll be enough for me to watch beyond her few minutes. However, unlike MD, I will try to be there for those few minutes. Seems Glass Half Full can also make me a glutton for punishment. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:46:22 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan [was: OS: Charmed and Tarzan] In a message dated 10/20/2003 7:12:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, leedaley@optonline.net writes: > But I was struck with a > feeling that this was two dissimilar episodes inexpertly glued > together. You gave up right at the end of the first "episode". I reacted > to the first half with "What in Hades is this, "Tarzan, The Music > Video?". The second half seemed to have a different direction and filming > technique, and less music. It also actually had a small glimmer of hope. > I'll be giving this puppy a few more episodes before I write it off (which > I was willing to do after the second episode). > > I reviewed the third ep. Okay, to be honest, I fast-forwarded through almost everything but Lucy's parts. Heh. Anyway, I not only felt like I was watching "dissimilar" eps within one, but that Lucy's parts were kind of stuck in (which is perhaps what they had to do at that point). I liked what Lucy did at the end, with the little "will you stay" part with John. She makes Katherine more vulnerable with him, actually rather excited that he might stay with her, maybe add a little more innocence (heh) and meaning to her life. Hmmm, sounds familiar for some reason. That said, even I of the Glass Half Full School of Rationalization can't make much more of the "glimmer" you saw. I fear we've seen Tarzan's full range of emotions already. I'm not sure I can bear another of those squinty-eyed adolescent pouts he seems stuck in with Auntie. And that crouch with one arm behind is starting to look like it belongs on a billboard for ... something. Jane's also starting to recycle expressions -- the wide-eyed "what the hell am I doing" one being most used. No, I'm not too hopeful about all this. By the time Lucy figures out how her character should run up stairs, it may not really matter. Whatever optimism I have is based on her, and I just don't see that her screen time, lines, colleagues, or context will provide much help. I still believe she's doing her best, but not that it'll be enough for me to watch beyond her few minutes. However, unlike MD, I will try to be there for those few minutes. Seems Glass Half Full can also make me a glutton for punishment. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:53:07 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan [was: OS: Charmed and Tarzan] In a message dated 10/20/2003 7:12:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, leedaley@optonline.net writes: > But I was struck with a > feeling that this was two dissimilar episodes inexpertly glued > together. You gave up right at the end of the first "episode". I reacted > to the first half with "What in Hades is this, "Tarzan, The Music > Video?". The second half seemed to have a different direction and filming > technique, and less music. It also actually had a small glimmer of hope. > I'll be giving this puppy a few more episodes before I write it off (which > I was willing to do after the second episode). > > I reviewed the third ep. Okay, to be honest, I fast-forwarded through almost everything but Lucy's parts. Heh. Anyway, I not only felt like I was watching "dissimilar" eps within one, but that Lucy's parts were kind of stuck in (which is perhaps what they had to do at that point). I liked what Lucy did at the end, with the little "will you stay" part with John. She makes Katherine more vulnerable with him, actually rather excited that he might stay with her, maybe add a little more innocence (heh) and meaning to her life. Hmmm, sounds familiar for some reason. That said, even I of the Glass Half Full School of Rationalization can't make much more of the "glimmer" you saw. I fear we've seen Tarzan's full range of emotions already. I'm not sure I can bear another of those squinty-eyed adolescent pouts he seems stuck in with Auntie. And that crouch with one arm behind is starting to look like it belongs on a billboard for ... something. Jane's also starting to recycle expressions -- the wide-eyed "what the hell am I doing" one being most used. No, I'm not too hopeful about all this. By the time Lucy figures out how her character should run up stairs, it may not really matter. Whatever optimism I have is based on her, and I just don't see that her screen time, lines, colleagues, or context will provide much help. I still believe she's doing her best, but not that it'll be enough for me to watch beyond her few minutes. However, unlike MD, I will try to be there for those few minutes. Seems Glass Half Full can also make me a glutton for punishment. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:56:34 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan [was: OS: Charmed and Tarzan] In a message dated 10/20/2003 7:12:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, leedaley@optonline.net writes: > But I was struck with a > feeling that this was two dissimilar episodes inexpertly glued > together. You gave up right at the end of the first "episode". I reacted > to the first half with "What in Hades is this, "Tarzan, The Music > Video?". The second half seemed to have a different direction and filming > technique, and less music. It also actually had a small glimmer of hope. > I'll be giving this puppy a few more episodes before I write it off (which > I was willing to do after the second episode). > > I reviewed the third ep. Okay, to be honest, I fast-forwarded through almost everything but Lucy's parts. Heh. Anyway, I not only felt like I was watching "dissimilar" eps within one, but that Lucy's parts were kind of stuck in (which is perhaps what they had to do at that point). I liked what Lucy did at the end, with the little "will you stay" part with John. She makes Katherine more vulnerable with him, actually rather excited that he might stay with her, maybe add a little more innocence (heh) and meaning to her life. Hmmm, sounds familiar for some reason. That said, even I of the Glass Half Full School of Rationalization can't make much more of the "glimmer" you saw. I fear we've seen Tarzan's full range of emotions already. I'm not sure I can bear another of those squinty-eyed adolescent pouts he seems stuck in with Auntie. And that crouch with one arm behind is starting to look like it belongs on a billboard for ... something. Jane's also starting to recycle expressions -- the wide-eyed "what the hell am I doing" one being most used. No, I'm not too hopeful about all this. By the time Lucy figures out how her character should run up stairs, it may not really matter. Whatever optimism I have is based on her, and I just don't see that her screen time, lines, colleagues, or context will provide much help. I still believe she's doing her best, but not that it'll be enough for me to watch beyond her few minutes. However, unlike MD, I will try to be there for those few minutes. Seems Glass Half Full can also make me a glutton for punishment. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:29:31 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 1 This has become SUCH a honker that I'm splitting up my replies And believe or not, I HAVE snipped some stuff. KT wrote and Cheryl replied and now I'm replying again KT: > >Xena ever wanted to be a benign ruler. She was originally motivated to > become a warrior for defense of her homeland. When that went bad, she was > "on the lam" and doing petty piracy to sustain herself when she met > Caesar.> > Cheryl: > Actually she wasn't on the "lam" in Destiny. Hey, all pirates are "on the lam". It's what they do. Cheryl: Her motivation in Destiny was > still protecting Amphipolis (and stealing really nice dresses). We do know > she was ambitious and wanted to rule with Xena. This doesn't mean she > couldn't be a good ruler or even a benign ruler. There is no indication in > Destiny that this Xena was especially cruel or even evil until her betrayal. She was burning a village when we first saw her. And TAUNTING them. Calling them "Friends". Phhhffft. I think this is part of why we see Evil Xena burning Cirra just before we see Pirate Xena burning Neopolitis. It shows an unbroken thread of method with the motivation becoming less rational as Xena gets more evil. KT: > boyfriend was a catalyst for Xena to become a benevolent ruler. (And by > the way, just exactly what made Xena such a good ruler? What did she do > to gain the love of the troops and the people?) Being married to Caesar > has apparently made Xena a happy-go-lucky grrl. Cheryl: > She is rich, powerful and co-ruler of the most powerful nation on earth why > shouldn't she be a happy. Her marriage seems on the surface to be successful. > We of course don't know exactly why she is a good ruler - we know the army > respects her and that she is capable of kindness (i.e. her physician treats > Joxer's daughter). The reformed Xena is not habitually cruel or nasty and > seems to have a soft spot of children there is no indication that Xena > couldn't be a good ruler. Her cruelty was the result of her betrayal by > Caesar and her various encounters with people Alti. Snatch from that time > line and make Xena a ruler and I think given her intelligence and basic > humanity she would be a fine ruler. > As I said before, the life she had to have gone through to have become Empress of Rome could not have been an easy, clean journey. Caesar's history is not pretty. It was a bloody road to the throne, filled with war, betrayal, assassinations and extremely violent power clashes. This life of endless invasion, conquest and destruction of enemies both at home and abroad has to have been just as violent and vicious as the life Xena lead as a warlord. So I don't see the Xena who fought for the throne of Rome with him as being a person likely to fold under pressure and capitulate to her enemies as Fugate's Xena did. KT: > Didn't kill Xena the minute he could but instead stood by and > watched her love and admiration from their subjects far overwhelm his own? > Oh I think not.> > Cheryl: > Who says the people love Xena more than Caesar. That's not in the story line. Brutus says to Caesar after he's literally dragged his bad little wifey home, "There is some... concern about the Empress." Caesar replies, "She defied my orders and attacked Roman troops. That's an act of treason punishable by death." And Brutus replies, "But she's very popular. The troops look up to her." With the implication again that Caesar may have a rebellion on his hands if he tries to kill Xena. And also we have Gabrielle's words after the play: "But you, Empress-- all of Rome talks about you. The country thrives. The people adore you. They say that the army would follow you through the gates of Hades." She specifically says "you" singular, not "you" plural. Nobody ever mentions Caesar's popularity. Of course, later we find out that the soldiers (other than Joxer) are perfectly willing to gleefully drag Xena across the landscape. Either it's tough love or they think they're giving her a fun ride, just playing around like she does when she first storms into the castle, beating up on the soldiers and knocking them down just for the heck of it. Cheryl: > In fact it would appear Caesar didn't kill Xena because he knew her potential > and used her to become the ruler of Rome. So had to share his throne with a > beautiful woman , it sure beats sharing with Pompey and Crassius. > Caesar don't share well though. We all know that. KT: > manage to wait this long to extract his revenge?> > Cheryl: > Caesar wasn't interested in revenge at least not against Xena. He was > interested in power. Xena helped him achieve and keep power. It was only > after she threatened his power that he turned against her. > I just don't see Caesar as a patient man. Of course, he sees having killed Xena in the first version of the world as a mistake. So though it's probably galled him for years, he hasn't offed her but has shared his throne with her. That was a good (though unknown to her) revenge for Xena! But I didn't see that she threatened his power anymore after she met Gabrielle than before. Caesar's actions created the problems--Xena had been willing to maintain the status quo if he would just let Gabrielle go home safely. And also threatens that if he doesn't, she will change things back because as they both know, she has many skills. Caesar however, just couldn't stand to do that and sent Alti off to kill Gabrielle anyway. Why? I guess because he just hates Xena so much that he also wants to destroy those she loves. Gabrielle is in his sights for sure. I doubt she would ever have made it back to her vineyard once Xena was dead. KT: > >Alti had never realized her powers before? She had never grabbed > >somebody (all of whom presumably existed in both worlds as they did in > >the Sovereign shadow world on Herc) and hit upon any "real" memories > >before?> > Cheryl: > If she did hit upon "real" memories how would she have know it? The reason > she figured out something was wrong with Xena's memories is that she > had some intimate knowledge of Xena's history. The memories didn't fit > what should have been Xena's memories. That's what threw Alti and Xena > - the memories didn't fit the history of the world they lived in. > I still say, first, that there should not be any memories since nobody lived that life. And second, if we DO accept bleed-over from that non-existant life, then other people's "memories" which Alti also sees when she grabs them should also have shown mysterious variances from CaesarWorld. Which the ever clever and cunning Alti should have immediately picked up on. KT: > changing everything that had happened for all the other people in it? If > all the people exist in both worlds, for some of them, that world has to > be a BETTER place. A place where perhaps THEY are not slaves or widows or > murderers or dead. Indeed, how did Gabrielle know that she wasn't > condemning all of them to total oblivion for her own selfish purposes?> > Cheryl: > Actually according to Katherine Fulgate ROC was concerned about killing > everyone. Grin. Another of those, "Wasn't us, we tried to fight it" moments. (I'm referring to a con where a fan asked why in Ares Farm, for the first time ever, Xena and Gabrielle stripped to their undies to go to bed. And Lucy and Renee said, "Wasn't us, we tried to fight it".) I love that story--I imagine them whispering and banding together to preserve their ideas of the characters and what the characters habitually do. Even if they lose. This has to be an issue on any show where there are free-lance writers and "Directors of the Week". It also reminded me of the Making of Gurkhan tape where they're off to the side in the little room in the dungeon while Michael Hurst is working with "Sarah" and they're whispering to each other about how they're going to play the scene, making suggestions and "Well, what if I...?" " Oh yeah--then I can...") That just made me smile. Those guys NEVER phoned in their work. Cheryl: Gabrielle however wasn't simply because she was going to put things > right or at least destroy what was wrong. I have always felt Gabrielle has a > touch of the zealot in her. She has before her vision of right and wrong, > which she can pursue with a frightening single mindedness. Yes. Absolutely. > Once she discovers > that the world is an artificial construct she is going to correct it. She is > also bitter and angry - Gabrielle has a powerful dark side to her - remember > she betrays Xena in the Debt out of jealously - I think she could destroy that > loom out of anger and frustration. That's going pretty far. I honestly don't see "our" Gabrielle ever being THAT selfish. To be willing to destroy a whole world and everybody in it. And Fugate certainly didn't create a Gabrielle who had enough passion and fire to do that either. It was just totally unbelievable to me. Though I do enjoy the outraged, STOMPING Gabby of that scene. Excellent physical acting from Renee, expressing outrage with her body as she comes crashing into the temple to confront the Fates. KT: > capabilities righteous defender of everybody that she was in "our" Xena > world? What happened to her?> > Cheryl: > Actually she is brave. She is brave enough to return to the prison that she > just got out of to be with Xena. So much for Joxer's prior glimmer of intelligence. He "helps" Gabrielle by taking her BACK to the prison. The prison she only got out of because Xena bargained with Caesar. But it doesn't matter this time because Caesaer lets her go free again just for the hell of it, apparently. Why not just kill her on the spot and save Alti another trip? End of part one KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:59:29 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 2 Cheryl: Remember things are moving very fast here. > One minute she is a playwright, next minute she about to be executed, then a > witch on speed shows her life is a fraud, add to that she just feel in love > with the Empress of Rome - let's give a girl a break here. That's a lot to > process in an afternoon. LOL! Alright--because you made me laugh, I'll give you that one. But more I was thinking of her quiet, uneventful life, how she lived and had excitement only in her head and didn't seem to have the gumption to have it in her life. Fugate's Gabrielle was a timid, insecure, not willing to fight for herself or for anybody else type of person. Obviously, all she ever needs is a jolt of Xena and then she's good to go. Unlike the real Gabrielle who runs away from the Performing Bard Academy in order to live with Xena, experiencing the world, rather than secluding herself from it and trying to write about it. For my taste, Remember Nothing does a far better job of preserving these defiant, don't mess with me, sticking-up-for-herself characteristics of a Gabrielle who didn't need to meet Xena to be that way. As we see when she encourages a dog to lick a piece of bread before she serves it to her master. KT: > she was like that, so meeting Xena had not given her that blazing courage. > Where did it go? Why is she so...ineffective and moony?> Cheryl: > Actually I don't find her all that ineffective. There isn't a whole lot she > can do to save Xena but she does save the world in the end. Perhaps that's > what people dislike about the episode is that Gabrielle saves the world while > Xena hangs on the cross. Well that's half right for me--it's not that Gabrielle saves the world but that Xena is just lolling on the cross, having given herself up to her enemies, no broken back, no broken legs, Gabrielle in danger from these same enemies but she's just hanging up there whimpering. Sheee-yeah, I believe that the Xena who was that pirate in Destiny, the one who would have had enough spirit to spit in Caesar's face from the cross (IF he had crucified her) would go so quietly like that. No way. Not when these two Xenas had the same formative years and not when Xena had already dipped her toe into the dark side as we saw in the first shot of her in the Destiny pirate flashback, when we see her happily burning the village, with no trace of conscience nor guilt over it at all. Why would Gabrielle saving Xena bother people? Gabrielle (along with many others) has saved Xena's butt a number of times. As early as Ties That Bind, she saves Xena from herself by whacking her with a rake. In Destiny she drags Xena's body to Niklio to save her. In The Furies, she tracks the naked, crazed Xena down and takes her to the priest for aid. In Sacrifice, she tackles Hope into the pit so that Xena will not die for killing her. In Friend in Need, she goes and fights for Xena's body (and head) so she can be restored to life. And in just about every episode, she joins in on fights to help Xena out. So I don't see that that would bother anybody. Cheryl: The Gabrielle in the alternative world is not some > pathetic loser. She is rich and successful. She has managed to get herself > out of Potadiea and make a name for herself. Well, the only person who's word we have for that is one of the actors in the play. I think if she really was THAT famous that Caesar would have been well aware of who she was already. If she was THAT famous, she would already have played the capital. Yeah, she is out of Poteidea. But I just hate the way she's portrayed as so helpless when the emperor jails her, the way she doesn't fight, doesn't start scheming to get out of jail. She's just totally submissive and accepting of others actions instead of fighting for herself. And sure, we can say, "Well, who would have the guts to stand up to an Emperor." And the answer of course is, "The real Xena and Gabrielle." Cheryl: This Gabrielle is perhaps even > more independent than the "real" Gabrielle. > I sure didn't see that. KT: > in, bounded off the horse and presented herself, the classic smart-assed > show off that she is. And then suddenly she's sniffing flowers and > enjoying Harlequin Romance plays? > Cheryl: > Perhaps Xena sniffs flowers when no one is looking. She must do that - how > would she know all about those healing herbs? As for the play - it was her > life that was being told so perhaps it just struck a cord with her. > Again, that life had never happened and so could not be residing in anyone's memories. KT: > good roll in the hay? (Other than Ares heh.) Are we to believe that > becoming a warlord was what made her sexual and sensual? I don't think > so. That was part of her makeup, part of who she was. That's another > lack--there's no sensuality in her, no sense of joy of love in her...> > Cheryl: > Perhaps that the point. Her life is artificial - the joy she has isn't real. > Her love for Caesar isn't real. Also it isn't that farfetched to believe that > after ten years together she doesn't find Caesar that interesting as a lover. > They are after all more of a power couple than lovers. > Ehhhh, I'll give you that last point. Though Borias' charms never seemed to fade for her. BUT they certainly weren't together that long. KT: > sacrificed herself for Gabrielle. The cell scene between them was very > reminiscent of IOM, but just not as good. WHY try to reprise a scene that > is surely a masterpiece? Jeez, guys> Cheryl: > That scene isn't as good as IOM but I think it played well. It of course > doesn't have the sense of drama of IOM simply because we know this world is > false and will be corrected so as deathbed scene it isn't as powerful. Well, also the dialogue wasn't near so good. The thoughts expressed were coming from a sense of hopelessness that I did not see in Ides. In Ides they both went bravely to their deaths, without any whining or whimpering. They professed their love for each other without any conscious or sub-conscious thoughts that the other guys had "won" by putting them in this situation. There was no defeat in those women in Ides. Xena even scowls and tosses threatening looks around as they drag her out to her cross. And of course the only reason they get her on the cross is because her back is broken. Unlike in Fates where she's a bit beat up yeah, but nothing that she hasn't shrugged off in dozens of eps. And yet she lets them crucify her. DROVE ME CRAZY! End of Part 2 KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:27:00 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide Part 3 Cheryl: > Well I rather like the mush. We had no much in season 5 so the mush-o-meter > quotient went up in season 6. > But there seldom is mush in Xena. There is dialogue that could easily have been mushy, but Lucy almost always manages to put heart into the often banal words and make them strong and heartfelt instead. And with her amazing ability to take even trash seriously and thus give it dignity, she pulled many moments of mushy sludge up by their slavering chinnie chin chins and turned them into honest, true and often beautiful moments in the show. So sure, like most seasons, season five didn't have a lot of mush. But season five was absolutely suffused with love. We start with Fallen Angel where Xena once again puts her body and her soul in huge danger in order to save Gabrielle. Because as Xena tells Michael, "I can't let her walk through hell alone". Then Xena becomes an archangel and in one of the most beautiful and loving moments of the series, gives up all her goodness to Callisto and redeems her. (Which is truly unfortunate-evil Callisto was so much more fun.) Even as an archangel, Gabrielle doesn't quite rise to the occasion. She gives Michael some strategic info to help him beat Xena and then when he says, "You understand there's no saving Xena? The only way to stop her is to cut her up. And let her spend the rest of eternity in pieces." Gabrielle's only reply is "If that's what it takes " The girl is ON IT without turning a hair about mincing up her soulmate. And when Xena begs her "Gabrielle, you can't let me walk through hell alone." Gabrielle's only response is, "I'm sorry." Oh wait-we were talking about love, not betrayal. (Hey-perhaps this was foreshadowing for Xena winding up in an urn-a minced Xena would have fit in that little pot too.) Other than this one betrayal though, we still have the constant love of Xena and Gabrielle during season five, their absolute bonding, their constant partnership and back-up for each other in their "work place." However, I have heard a number of folks say the subtext was missing in season five. Well, I think that might have been because Lucy was missing. And all those body doubles and stand-ins just couldn't generate the charisma and chemistry Lucy effortlessly pours out even when she's just standing around. And which Renee and everybody else reacts to. But also, since Xena was pregnant, there was a change in the relationship of the two characters. In fact, one of the more poignant lines I ever heard Gabrielle say is due to this. In God Fearing Child, she promises Xena that "I'm going to be more attentive." Renee plays it so well, this promise to both stay out of trouble and to protect Xena's child. Gabrielle knows she's a screw up sometimes and this is just so sadly sweet to me, how she's trying to assure Xena that she'll be better, more adult in the future, for the sake of the baby. Xena of course barely registers the promise-she knows she can always rescue Gab with both hands tied behind her back or even with a boy tied to her wrist while being blind, so a big ol' belly shouldn't create much of a problem for her. And the greatest generator of subtext was always Gabrielle's hurt/held at knifepoint/dangling from a high rope/stuck on a doomed vessel/hanging off a cliff/kidnapped by priests-king's ministers-cannibals/lost leaping into a pit/held up by the hair in the clutches of an evil shamaness/put on a rock and left to sleep forever, etc and Xena's sacrificing anything to rescue her, followed by the loving embraces and dialogue of their reunion scene after she does. This hurt and comfort scenario was constant in the show and created most of the high subtext moments. With Gabrielle now positioned as the pregnant Xena's protector and later protector of Eve, this whole line of comfortable, well-worn plot points was retired for the year. And so the basic situation that created scenes that folks saw subtext in was just not part of that year's story arc. Other season five episodes particularly filled with love include Purity, where we have Xena finding Lao Ma's daughters and working with the good daughter to preserve Lao Ma's legacy. And Kao calling Xena sister at the end. In Seeds of Faith, we have Callisto impregnating Xena, out of love and gratitude, giving her another child to love. In God Fearing Child, we have the love between Xena and Solon. Solon sacrifices being in the Elysian fields because in Tartarus, he can at least see his mother. And Xena promises Solon that she will never forget him, that not a day goes by without her thinking of him. And we have Ares whispering to Xena's back that he loves her. In Eternal Bonds, Joxer's love for Gabrielle is finally fully expressed to her by him. In Amphipolis Under Seige we see Cyrene's love for her daughter and her granddaughter and her courageous stand against gods for them. (And once again, we see Ares' love for Xena.) In Antony and Cleopatra, we see Xena and Antony's immediate attraction. And their deep feelings for each other. And then witness the tragedy of their love having to be sacrificed for their duties. "I could not love thee dear, so much, loved I not honor more." In Looking Death in the Eye, we see Xena talking about the loss of her brother and her son in a heartbreaking scene, that shows us how much Death loves her own brother. In Livia we see Xena helpless before the love she feels for her daughter and racked with guilt that she's a chippette off the old blockhead(s). And in Eve, we see Livia tranformed through love. Unfortunately, this makes her the whiny and aggravating Eve. (Talk about a wasted character...) And in Motherhood, for the love of Xena, Ares even sacrifices his godhood to bring Eve back to life. And then also restores Gabrielle for no other reason but that he knows that Xena loves her. Even though he knows that Xena will choose to be with Eve and Gabrielle over being with him, he still brings them back from the dead. Now THAT is love. And I will take love over mush any day. And there were massive amounts of extraordinary, life-transforming, transcendent love in Season five. KT: > the characters love each other, which I what I saw Fates devolve into. > Cheryl: > Of course the point is that this is a WFC is a romantic love story and it has > to be viewed from that point of view. If you don't like that genre then this > isn't the episode for you. > Well, I don't like the action adventure genre either. But Lucy as Xena made me forgot that I didn't. So that argument does not apply for me. KT: > illuminating the relationship we've seen over the years. I thought this > was really well presented in Abyss, with its emotionally wrenching cave > scene showing how much Xena hurt over having hurt someone she loved so > much. The Ring Trilogy is another excellent example of the way to > showcase the love between these characters without using them as puppets > by dismissing or replacing elements of their personality that we all know > so well.> > Cheryl: > Yes I like the more subtle stories too but I found WFC to be kind of > liberating. Here the love story took center stage and I found that to brave > move on TPTB part. This is a mushy tragic love story between two women done > as high drama - I think that was first for popular TV. Yeah which makes it particularly sad to me that it wasn't done well. However, I think a GOOD high drama (with elements of tragedy and loss) love story between two women had already been done by PacRen that year. In the Ring arc. I think that is the best telling of a romance story between X&G. I hope somebody brings out a poster of the kiss in that one. Because it would be a marvelous, lovely, positive image for a very young lesbian to hang on her wall amidst all her other cultural icon posters---the Princess Charming coming and waking up the Princess. Taken and understood in all it's text, sub-text and high romantic and sexual potential. Now THAT was a GOOD romance "novel". KT: > think Fugate writes fanfic and I believe I read in the official mag that > she's not online or wasn't on line when she was tapped to write this one. > I think she has a good future in fanfic.> > Cheryl: > As you probably know by now she is a screenwriter. Yeah, when she announced that she would be writing a possible Xena movie, I looked at her credits on the web. I didn't recognize anything she'd done, but then I don't keep up on movies a lot. > She is not a fan fiction writer. I'm just saying this story was in the league of bad fanfic stories that one can run across every day online. Cheryl: > By the way all fan fiction writers are not bad writers. I find a lot > of fan fiction very good. > I agree that there is some very good stuff out there. And a lot of good enough stuff I would say. But compared to the vast amount of material that is available, the very good/good vs. Fates type of poor/bad stories is a very low proportion of the whole. There is a whole sub-genre which is called PWP (for Plot? What Plot?) which usually consists of nothing more than a very graphic sex scene between X&G. When Fugate presented such a poorly plotted ep, they should have at LEAST stuck in some good sex scenes to distract us. Of course, sometimes good sex scenes offends the sensibilities of those who love Romance novels. KT: > horrific. Xena gets shot with arrows, gets dragged behind a horse, > (that's three times now-does she get a charm? Can't you just see a little > horsie and dragee on her charm bracelet?) and is crucified--by the order > of her spouse.> > Cheryl: > Jeeze how cum we always get upset when Xena gets beat up. We have never > complained when Xena is shooting people full of arrows or loping their heads > off or dragging them behind Argo. But if Xena gets all bloody we just can't > stand it. Now that's not true for me. Hell, Xena takes a beating in every ep, right from the very start when the bad guy whacked her across the back of her head with the hilt of his sword, knocking her down to the ground. And it continued in every ep ever since. AND we seldom see a lot of blood and gore when Xena beats people up. It's short, it's fast, it's sometimes played to be funny. When she kills people, it's swiftly down and she seldom twists the knife except for really bad guys like Yodoshi. The only times I get squiiked is when the beating is particularly violent and lasts so long that it becomes hard to watch. The mutilation of Xena in The Way and the horrific beating with fists and sticks that she sustains while being strung up by her feet and hung upside down in Gurkhan were the worst two to me because they were over the top and seemed to me to almost be taking delight in just how badly Xena was getting it. The beating Gabrielle got from Alti in Between The Lines was hard to take too, because Gabrielle just shouldn't be beaten like that. I think she's still too young and too inexperienced, maybe? It was just an absolute bully situation. The bully picking on the nice but nerdy kid. I hated that Xena lost "a good chewing tooth" in the Crusader. I wish there was a part in that scene where we saw Xena pushing it back in assessingly. That would have been a comfort. I was just really aware that this means her teeth will be shifting and she's probably going to lose more teeth as they shift around in her mouth due to the gap from the lost tooth. I hated the "Xena kills all the Amazons" in Sin Trade too--that was far too violently gratuituous for my taste. The draggings (you know, actually Xena also gets dragged behind the chariot by Callisto too so that makes four draggings, no? But only three right behind a horse) don't really bother me that much. I have a gabfan bud who was whining about the Gabdrag (Gee--how come we don't use the term, Xenadrag(s)?) and I said, "It's not like she's the only one in the whole series to ever be dragged you know. And Xena's got the record--she's been dragged three times!" And my bud answered, "Yeah, but I bet you anything old Teflon Hide barely noticed she was being dragged." That CRACKED me up. I just don't understand the constant dredged up horror of the Gabfans over the Gabdrag when there were so many other draggings in the series. Some Gabfans act as if Xena just woke up one morning, cracked her knuckles and said, "You know, I'm bored. I think I'll go drag Gabrielle aroundt he countryside for a while." They somehow miss the reason behind why Xena did that. Actually, I think the Gabdrag became ridiculous because it too went too far. Any normal human being being dragged across boulders, through fire, used to knock down parts of buildings, etc. would have been dead. (Or at least would have been wearing their dress up above their ears.) And it was just hilariously obvious that it was a dummy in a number of those scenes. Ultimately, it just became silly to me. Fugate said at one con that she had put in Xenadrag 3 to make up for the Gabdrag a little. Now THAT is gratuitious violence. End of part 3 KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #316 **************************************