From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest)
To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org
Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #314
Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org
Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org
Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org
Precedence: bulk


chakram-refugees-digest    Monday, October 20 2003    Volume 03 : Number 314



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  [chakram-refugees] Re: Tazan and Lucy's performance  ["Cheryl Ande" <cande]
  [chakram-refugees] Lucy on WB page             [KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>]
  [chakram-refugees] Re:  Helicon         ["Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Tazan and Lucy's performance    [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] warrior women with Lucy Lawless     [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan [was: OS: Charmed and Tarzan]  [IfeRae@a]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:50:55 -0400
From: "Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Tazan and Lucy's performance

> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:40:08 -1000 (HST)
> From: "Jackie M. Young" <jyoung@lava.net>
>
> - --*Hahaha!*  "Enigmatic" can also mean "lost", which is what she was! ;P
>
> And yeah, if you're *lost*, any direction is always an option.....;P

Well I think you are being just a bit hard on Lucy.  She was hired late into
the series and joined the cast very quickly and probably had to jump into
the character with little prep time.
>
>
> - --Decidedly.  XWP was a one-of-a-kind character, never to come around
> again.
>
> But since they're pitting LL against Mitch Pilaggi (sp?), it'll be a
> contest of wills (pun intended ;) ), so the set-up is already there for a
> showdown.  LL's character is _supposed_ to be strong, a fighter.  But I
> unfortunately didn't see any of that fire in her character last Sun. ;(
>
> And, surprisingly, I found Mitch's character more interesting than LL's.
> ;P

Why shouldn't you?  Mitch's character probably had twice as much screen time
as Lucy's and villians are usually more interesting.  However I  just
watched the pilot again this weekend and the scene between her and Mitch was
very subtle.  While it appears that Kate is looking to settle the lawsuit
she is fishing for information.  She says she went to visit her brother and
sister-law's graves and then mentions her nephew's grave and Mitch smiles
just a bit at that.  That's when Kate realizes Jane has told her the truth
about the nepew being alive.  I think Lucy trying for very different kind of
character her than Xena.  Someone who is more subtle and little more
buttoned down than Xena.  It is however hard to judge what this character
may or may not be on about five minutes of screen time.

CherylA
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 15:06:43 -0800 (AKDT)
From: KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Lucy on WB page

Lucy is now featured on the official WB web page with a big honking photo.
She's in the foreground with Tarzan in the background and the photo is
captioned "Can Tarzan be TAMED?"

It isn't the best picture of her, but it's nice to see they know who the
big draw is after only about 5 minutes of her onscreen.

http://thewb.com

KT
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:39:24 -0400
From: "Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re:  Helicon

Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:29:25 -0800 (AKDT)
From: KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] To Helicon

Hey, just for the hell of it, I'll resend my Helicon review also. (Since I
mentioned Helicon in the Fates Review.)


<<<This ep reminded me of Tsunami.  And the Executioner.  And For Him The
Bell Tolls--those tapes that live in my "Saved for archival purposes but
don't bother re-watching box".>>

Hey! I liked Tsunami!  It's actually one of the ones I watch when I'M HUNGREY
FOR A Xena episode.

<<I wondered why the hell they created this hatchet job on the Amazons. This
was the worst representation of Amazons I've ever seen on XWP.  These
Amazons were unskilled, witless fighters who seemed amazed that people get
hurt and killed in battle. They had no heart for war.  They were like a
bunch of frightened geese, screaming when they were fired upon and
squealing and scattering in terror when they got scared. These Amazons
seemed to never have seen battle nor to have any ingenuity, courage or war
savvy.   And they were wingey to boot.>>

I think you are a bit hard on the Amazons.  They were for the most very brave
and skilled fighters once they got a chance to fight.  What happened was that
they actually were for most of the episode at the mercy of technology.  An
unseen enemy is firing them upon and they have no way on earth to defend
themselves.  They only had one recourse and that was to duck and run.  Only
one Amazon actually panicked that I can remember and one was kind of mean to
Xena, but that was it.


....
<<"I mean, ok, 1. you have amazons, theoretically great guerilla fighters,
specialty forest guerilla warfare. 2. you have an unknown enemy holed up
in a stronghold.  3. you have Xena brilliant military mind with a knack
for infiltrating, sneaking and spying out her enemies.

What do you do?  Full frontal amphibious assault?!?!?  What, did Xena have a
lobotomy?  Since when is it a good idea to minimze your strengths rather
then capitalize on them?>>

Actually this wasn't a full frontal assault.  What the Amazons were doing was
landing at the back of the castle where Xena said there were no defenses.
They were going to land under the cover of darkness and the make their way up
to the castle where Xena was suppose to have killed Bellerphone.  The problem
of course was the Bellerphon had defenses and was expecting the assault by
sea.  Then Xena screwed up and didn't stick around and kill Bellerphon, which
I agree was a major plot hole.   If Xena had skewered him right then and
there, the Amazons would have made it to shore without the casualties.  I
doubt with their leader dead the soldiers would have cared about Varia or the
Amazons.


<<That first fight in the Amazon compound- didn't Amazons use to have
sentries? Hell, didn't Amazons use to have swords?  These girls were
mostly fighting hand to sword combat.  Some of them are seen picking
swords up off the ground, but not many seemed to have their own.   It was
like the army had come through some village where the warriors were off to
war and only the "wimmin" were home to fight them.  Women who were
surprised by the attack and totally ill prepared and unable to fend it
off.  But on XWP, even village women and men fight pretty well when
confronted by bad guys. They usually give a good account of
themselves--hell in AUS, they even stand firm against a whole
conglomeration of armies.  So actually these Amazons were
presented as being even worse fighters than the regular run of the mill
folks on XWP.>>

Actually the Amazons never do seem to come off as very competent, at least the
Greek Amazons don't.  Let's see Livia managed to ride into their village
unchallenged.  Then that Prince from Upper Slovobia was able to kill their
queen and a bunch of other Amazons.  The mortal Ares and his army burned down
their forest.  Also they managed to nearly get wiped out by Pompey without
even causing much trouble for him until Xena took over.  So I would say the
Amazon's were actually pretty much up to form in this episode.


<<BUT, they pick Gabrielle to lead them because they need "someone familiar
with the terrain of Greece".  Then they all cluster around and look at a
map!  Did Gab have the map of Greece hidden in her luggage?  Is that why
the Amazons couldn't just read the map for themselves and so needed
somebody who knows Greece?  If they don't know Greece, what the hell were
they doing THERE making queens?  Why did they pick that area of unfamiliar
terrain to all of them for this ceremony?  Beats me.>>

They are there because Varia has called them together to unite the various
nations, so they are unfamiliar with Greece.  It however does make some sense
that they would feel that it was the duty of a Greek queen to lead the battle
in Greek territory.  Gabrielle did suggest that Xena lead the Amazons but they
reject that idea and insist on Gabrielle leading them.   The Amazon's are
nothing if not neurotically tied to their traditions.  Gabrielle continually
tries to give Xena command of the army and they keep insisting that Gabrielle
is the only they will follow.

<<And why wouldn't Xena just go in and rescue Varia, like she's done so
often in the past for girls captured by warlords and being held in their
strongholds?  ...>>

Because the Amazon's probably would get all huffy and insulted that Xena, who
is not an Amazon, would go off and rescue their queen


<<Meanwhile, the Zons and their Queen who knows Greece are floating towards
shore.  They all stand up in the boat and emit girly squeals whenever it
rocks.  They are scared to be at sea.  Gabrielle, who has apparently used
her pressure points remedy to stop her well established seasick malady,
walks among them, bucking up the troops.  While either refusing or just
forgetting to share Xena's medical knowledge with them.  (You know, if
they'd just sat down, they wouldn't have felt the rocking so much.)>>

I just watched the episode again and actually they only squeal once and I
think it was surprise when a wave hits the boat rather then fear (as Xena said
to Ares when he squeals at the sight of a rat:  "that's not fear, it's
surprise).  Actually the more interesting question is where did they get that
boat?  Do the Amazon's have a navy?   So if there is no navy they must have
hired the ship and this is probably why Belle figured out they were coming by
sea.  As for the seasickness - I don't know why Gabby didn't teach them the
pinch - maybe she forgot (g).

...
<<When Belleraphon gives the order to fire the catapults, Xena is filled
with "Gotta Protect Gabrielle Fire"  and is suddenly able to easily break
out of Belleraphon's hold and just run away. One good laugh was Xena
taking that guy out the window with her--for some reason, that really
tickled me, even on the first viewing.>>

I agree I think Xena would have just killed Bellerphon at that moment.  It
makes no sense for her to jump out that window.  The way to save the Gabrielle
and the Amazons is to take out Bellerphon.  However as to the point that Belle
had her at knifepoint - yes Caesar did that but so did Hercules - perhaps
that's how Xena knows Belle is telling the truth about being a demigod - he
got the drop on her.  Though apparently she had no trouble to break from his
hold - maybe she just thought she would listen to him as he explained his
motivations to her.

.....


<<The Zons hit the beach and immediately start getting shot down.  This
time they have their swords, but they forgot their bows and arrows.  An
interesting side note--there are trees in the background and a boulder
strewn headland to their right, yet they run across the open beach to hide
behind these teensy little branch barriers that Belleraphon's boys put out
as bait apparently.>>

Actually a lot of them did have bows and arrows but they arrows wouldn't have
done them any good anyway - the fort was too far away.  The things they were
hiding behind were actually put there to impede their progress up the beach.

<<Once again these Amazons get totally spooked.  They squeal and scream
their way up the beach and act as if they've never seen anyone die before.
All they needed was some heels and pearls to complete the helpless,
hapless classic B movie women in danger look.>>

Again I don't think screaming when fire hits you and arrows denote cowardice.
Also the people who seemed to be spooked were the young Amazons and perhaps
they never were in battle before.  The Amazons I assume are not perpetually at
war so not every Amazon would be battle hardened.  Amazons like Cyane seem to
be worried but not particularly spooked.


<<So Trudis runs out, waking the catapult guys out of their stuptified
boredom, gets about two feet away, and gets blown up.  This great
diversion tactic gives the girls all of 12 seconds before they run out
from their little branch hideaways in sheer girly hysteria, dash halfway
across the open sands and then apparently give up the effort to reach the
protection of the dune and instead lie down flat on the open beach.  And
wail. Great strategy>>

I have to admit Trudis didn't strick me as a particularly bright girl.  I'm
afraid I wouldn't have been the one to say yes mam to that particular
assignment.

<< G.  "You should take over."
X:  The Amazons aren't going to listen to me."  Since when?   It's that 26
year gap and that fan fic file that's got all those gals confused, I bet.>>

Xena is probably right.  They only listen to Xena if they have no choice or if
Gabrielle is acting as queen.  You noticed no one ever asked Xena to take over
or do they ever ask her advice about anything.



<<And Xena's right--the chakram taking out one of the catapults doesn't buy
them much time.  In fact it really wasn't worth waiting around for instead
of heading right to the shelter of the sand dunes, which they should have
done the minute they hit the beach.  I don't think these two diversions
saved any more lives than if they had just hit the dunes right away.
Gabrielle congratulates them all.  "At least we're out of the line of
fire."  YAY!>>

My question is if the Chaky can take out one catapult why doesn't Xena just
keep flinging it around until all the catapults are blown up?  Seems like
really good idea.  Xena does seem to be having real lapses in judgment in this
episode.

<<Then Varia comes out of the castle.  She's wearing a blindfold. Now, her
hands are chained in front of her so she could easily reach up and take
the blindfold off but no, she walks the whole way back with it on.
Apparently the fact that she can't see her hands keeps her from realizing
just where they are, and how useful they could be to her in this current
situation.>>

I asked Tasiania (?) about that scene.  She doesn't have a clue either as to
why Varia never just took off the blindfold.  That was the direction she had.


<<Gabrielle immediately hands the reins of command back to Varia.  Who
decides they will retreat.  Gabrielle is stunned.  "RETREAT!"  she yells
incredulously. (She's just not the best strategist in the crowd, is she?
Or maybe she just thought things were going well?)>>

Actually there is nowhere to retreat to, is there?  So retreating seems out of
the question any way.  They also know that Bellerphone is after the Amazons so
he would come after them while they are retreating.  I actually think Varia is
trying to think of a way to get out of her deal with Bellerphone and suggested
the retreat as way the get out of trying to kill Gabrielle.

<<Xena suggests they
escape by water and approach the castle from a different direction.
Gabrielle then gets bent out of shape over taking the wounded along on the
retreat.  "More of us will be injured or die." (Subtext:  "I don't want to
take any chances with getting my queenly ass safely outta here")

Xena and Varia sprout stiff speechless, embarrassed by G's lack of
honorable leadership looks which shame Gabrielle into agreeing to take the
wounded along.   (Of course, she does get her revenge later for them
slowing her down when she feeds one of the wounded to the sharks.)>>

Actually Gabrielle is right.  Taking bleeding people into shark infested
waters is a bad idea.  So is swimming in shark infested water.  Then feeding
people to sharks in the water is a bad idea.  Oh!  I guess going by water was
just a bad idea.


<<Just why did they have to go do that character assassination of Varia?
She was a cool character that they had given some interesting back story
to.  What a waste.  A real Amazon would have used that ploy to escape and
then just started guerrilla action against Belleraphon and his troops
anytime they managed to find that incredibly elusive footpath and leave
the castle. But we're also deconstructing the Amazons as great warriors in
this ep, so maybe that's why Varia got shafted too.>>

Yes a great queen would have used Belle's plan against him but when did Varia
ever show any kind of judgement.  She insists on killing Eve in Coming Home
when they need Xena to fight Ares, then she follows Xena and gets in trouble
in Dangerous Prey, and then she almost turns the tribe over to Ares - this
girl is not queen material.  Again I  think the Amazons don't come off as
awful warrior.  They do defeat Telephone and his army once they have a chance
to stand up and fight

...
Gods, that water getaway scene was beyond funny. When I saw the fin in the
water, I fully expected to hear a knock on the raft and a muffled voice
saying, "Telegram!  Telegram for Gabrielle!"  Then an expectant beat.  And
when that didn't work, another knock and a hopeful, "Pizza delivery!"
(The Land Shark bits on Saturday Night Live are some of the few things I
really enjoy about that show.)

....
<<G: "Was that honorable?"
X: "Would you have given yourself for her?"   Well, based upon how p*ssed
Gab got when Varia tried to sacrifice HER for the good of the tribe, I
think the answer is no.  THIS Gabrielle wouldn't do that.  The real
Gabrielle would have tried to save them all, by leaping on its back and
biting its fin or sticking her finger in its eye, making Xena swim over
and save her by punching the shark out and drowning it.>>

Oh I would have liked to have seen Gabby fighting the shark  She did off an
octopus in Fishsticks so I'm sure the shark would have gotten his too.


...
<<Then of course, we get Xena's "New Plan" to lure Belleraphon out of his
castle, where the Zons can capitalize on their guerrilla warfare skills.
So Xena casually comes riding up to the gate on Lil' Argo.  Now
how the hell did she AND the horse get there without any problems?  Did
Xena send a telegram to Argo telling her to swim to Mommy?  Or did Xena
swim back, get Argo and then just ride through the strategically placed,
heavily defended, nobody gets past us mountain pass?  I haven't decided
yet myself.>>

Argo took the dayliner over from Amazonia.  She was left behind again but knew
Xena would need her so she barrowed a couple of dinars and book passage over.
She had a lovely time and met a very nice stallion and she's been dating him
ever since.

<<And then when Xena calls to Belleraphon, he opens the gates, preens in
the doorway for a bit and then walks out.  Doesn't even peek around first
to see if there's any hidden Amazons in the trees. Then his boys run out
behind him. Literally RUN out. What---they only got three horses?  I guess
not many of their horses can swim.>>

Yes Belle doesn't seemed at all surprised that she is knocking on his front
door.  Wasn't she behind him yesterday?

...

<<The weirdest thing about this ep to me is that they've been over this
ground already and have dealt with it far better in past episodes like A
Good Day and Endgame.  Why take someone else's "War is hell" study and
homage it when you've got excellent stuff in the can on this topic
already?  It's unfathomable to me.>>

Actually I think what they were trying to do was a character study of how war
changes people specifically Gabrielle.  Gabrielle indeed doesn't act like
herself and she says that to Xena.  She is trying to behave as a queen would.
She is doing what Xena does in The Price - she is trying to put away the
humane part of her and to be the stoic warrior. The one who can send an Amazon
to her death if necessary and decide that wounded will be sacrificed if
necessary.  The problem is that Gabrielle can't do this without a lot of
damage to herself.  She doesn't have that ruthless streak that Xena has.  Now
that is what I believe the episode is about.  The problem is that to do this
you had to create a situation where the Amazons get in trouble in a realistic
way.  The battle plan goes awry for a plausible reason but apparently a lot of
people didn't find the plot plausible.  I personally never can understand any
strategy (I still am confused about what exactly was going on in A Good Day)
so I concentrated on the human drama here.  I wasn't as critical of that part
of the story although I do believe a lot of the dialog was stilted and sounded
forced.  However the episode still hold my interest.

CherylA
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:51:51 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Tazan and Lucy's performance

In a message dated 10/19/2003 4:39:21 PM Central Daylight Time, 
cande@sunlink.net writes:

> I think Lucy trying for very different kind of
> character her than Xena.  Someone who is more subtle and little more
> buttoned down than Xena.  It is however hard to judge what this character
> may or may not be on about five minutes of screen time.
> 

You know, even though she played "over the top" and "large" a lot on XWP, I 
was struck most by the subtleties that could express so much.  Problem is, some 
of her best moments were gone in a flash.  But we fanatics watched eps so 
many times and had so many views from others, that we often picked up on those.  
I always wondered if the casual viewer ever "got" that.  

My concern is that Tarzan (at least to me) doesn't warrant much rewatching in 
and of itself.  Sure, I checked out Lucy's parts again and saw a small ways 
she used her eyes, expressions, smile variations, and body language to 
communicate more than might be immediately apparent.  Possibly professionals in the 
field will notice that.  But she had much more time and many more opportunities 
to develop Xena from the nearly expressionless, tightly controlled portrayal 
she began with.  

Still, I'd rather she take her time with this new character anyway, despite 
the risk that the show'll get cancelled before she really defines the character 
more.  Otherwise, she could create someone who stood out, but didn't become 
more interesting if the show makes it through a season.

- -- Ife
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:51:55 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] warrior women with Lucy Lawless

In a message dated 10/18/2003 1:05:16 PM Central Daylight Time, 
fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes:

> Their address was posted on another list:
> 
> Discovery Communications Inc.
> One Discovery Place
> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> 
> And if you feel truly outraged by this lack of Lucy in America, their
> telephone number is 240-662-2000.
> 

Heh, I wonder if they'll need to add another number, just for Xena fans.  <g>

Isn't there a way to do an on-line petition, which folks could "sign" and 
would be forwarded on to Discovery?

Gods, I can see the headline now:  "Xena Strikes Beyond the Grave:  Irate 
Lawless Fans Demand U.S. Broadcast of Warrior Women."  <beg>

- -- Ife
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:51:58 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tarzan [was: OS: Charmed and Tarzan]

In a message dated 10/18/2003 4:41:15 AM Central Daylight Time, 
jyoung@lava.net writes:

> 
> On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:36:01 EDT, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
> > But she started XWP very restrained, very dour. (Same with the X-Files
> >character.)
> 
> --Stoic is one thing.  Lifeless is another. ;P
> 
> And I was deliberately _not_ bringing up the X-F character because I
> wanted to review Tarzan on its own terms.  But since you mentioned
> it.....;)  I was more riveted by the X-F character than I was by Kathleen
> Clayton.  The X-F person had more mystery, more spunk, more in-your-face
> danger than Kathleen will ever have. >>

The X-F character was a bionic killer, created to be dangerous.  Lucy played 
her "down" as well, but we got to see how coldly ruthless she could be through 
her actions.  She didn't have to scream it.

>  >I think Lucy'll show more "spark" as she becomes more comfortable with
> >the character, though I still doubt it'll captivate us in the same way as
> >with Xena.
> 
> --Well, I hope so, because her character is supposed to be the
> counterpoint to Richard.  Without it, the story will have even less depth
> than it does now. ;P >>


I believe she's trying to give it "depth" by not being a carbon copy of 
Richard.  By its nature, depth requires more time to notice.  Part of our 
nervousness may be in believing Lucy may not have that much time to develop that depth. 
 

> 
> I'm just disappointed she didn't have a better handle on her character
> from the start.  She's a much more seasoned actress now than she was when
> she began on XWP, so there's no reason why she couldn't've given us a more
> decisive motivation for her character (and less *mush*) than she did
> coming out of the box.
> 
> I can only hope LL will get better over time. ;(  >>


Again, huge difference between being the star -- the focal point -- and a 
supporting, spottily seen character.   Plus, as Hudson once said, it's easier 
being interesting as the bad gal, and Lucy said she always enjoyed playing Evil 
Xena.  Richard has already been pegged as the bad guy, whether that ends up 
being true.  All Mitch P. has to do is glower and be cryptic sometimes.  Lucy has 
to somehow convey skepticism, maternal instincts, "tough" gal, trusted 
confidante, and a mysterious "edge" in chopped up, one-minute bits -- quickly, but 
suggesting more "depth."  With little help from the writing itself.  I ain't 
saying this is her best.  I'm saying I think she's doing the best with what 
she's got.

- -- Ife
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #314
**************************************