From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #310 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, October 16 2003 Volume 03 : Number 310 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades [KTL > (fwd) [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades [IfeRae@a] Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades [KTL > [KTL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:41:13 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades Okay, here's my last response on part one of this thread. I shall just boil down the essence of all the prior posts. Xena needed a sidekick. So Rob and RJ created the character of Gabrielle. And then scripted that Gabrielle would use Xena to get out of Poteidea. Ta da! KT A little traveling music please! DA DA DA DA DA DA, DA DA DA DA DA DA, DA DA DA DA DA DAAAAAAAA! (Exit stage right with effusive arm waving) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:56:53 -0500 From: "H.J.J. Hewitt" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Charmed and Tarzan >--Actually, I disagree with Cheryl on this. I was disappointed in how LL >handled the role. Me, too. And as Jackie said, too many of Kathleen's actions/reactions seemed artificial or ambiguous. I didn't feel any of the spark Lucy had even in the early travel shows she hosted. In fact, the one character who struck me as "alive", and vital, and motivated, much as I disliked him, was Michael. (And even wounded, Tarzan's inability to hold onto Michael makes his having so \effortlessly/ lifted Jane back up over the parapet in the pilot look all the more ridiculous.) Grumpily, TEXena ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:39:49 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> (fwd) > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > >I'm thinking this was more "anti" schmaltz, in terms of how it was shown > > as > > >originating falsely, blown to kingdom come, and dissed by "our" X&G > > >gratefully riding off into their "real" world. > > > > Umm, to say that, is a bit like saying that Married with Fishsticks was a > > satire on sitcoms. There's a risk with satire, which is that part of the > > audience will take it seriously and won't 'get' it. Having said which, I > > think KF was entirely serious in her writing. > > > > > > Yes, that's why I said I believe she treated the characters respectfully, > which also meant treating her method seriously, just as I think MWF was a great > example of that comedy genre. Respectful snippage > > By "anti" schmaltz, I meant I think Fugate knew exactly what she was doing > with the romance ideas and probably saw a useful purpose in those, as writers > tend to look in all sorts of places for ideas. But if she'd wanted that to be > the main point, she wouldn't have shown the importance of the backstory and X& > G's love as more "real" and preferable in their own blood and guts world. > > -- Ife I think she would have been very happy to leave them there, just as they were, little simpering puddles of jellyized smittenness. But thank the gods, Rob took the grrls back, wiped them off and set them back in their own big and little boots again, to play a few more eps. THANK THE GODS. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:06:04 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak > << If Caesar had altered the timeline so the 'other' world > never existed, how could those scenes have ever happened? Plot hole! >> > > Or, you could redefine your concept of such timeline alterations,to include > forces (e.g., X&G's love) which can't be altered no matter how someone tries to > tamper with them. Much easier to skip over plot holes, once you let go of > all preconceptions, "sci-fi canon" or "logic." > > --Ife But their love WAS altered. Once they found each other, Xena became a wimp and Gabrielle became Kali, Goddess of Destruction. Actually, even worse than kali. She became a person willing to kill everyone in the world for her own selfish reasons. You can keep a love like that. Love should make you a better person, not a lesser one. As it did for both our ladies in our real Xenaverse. And sorry, I just can't step over poorly ploted, badly written, mind-numbingly boring stories just because they were eps of XWP. There are a few (especially from season six and from the pregnant and missing Lucy days of season five) that are just not welcome in my VCR slot. I love good stories, good writing and exquisite visuals too much to accept just any slop that comes pouring out of the tube. Even if it is pretending to be a story about Xena: Warrior Princess. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:41:04 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak In a message dated 10/16/2003 3:06:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > >Or, you could redefine your concept of such timeline alterations,to > include > >forces (e.g., X&G's love) which can't be altered no matter how someone > tries to > >tamper with them. Much easier to skip over plot holes, once you let go of > >all preconceptions, "sci-fi canon" or "logic." > > > >--Ife > > > But their love WAS altered. Once they found each other, Xena became a wimp > and Gabrielle became Kali, Goddess of Destruction. Actually, even worse > than kali. She became a person willing to kill everyone in the world for > her own selfish reasons. > > You can keep a love like that. > LOL! I didn't say anything about the type of love or its worth. I'm only talking about a possible "logical" explanation for XWP's version of altered timelines. Somehow I don't think you care about that, any more than you do the ep itself. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:42:29 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades In a message dated 10/15/2003 9:41:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Okay, here's my last response on part one of this thread. I shall just > boil down the essence of all the prior posts.>> How kind of you, as it appears you've also supported the essence of mine. < beg> > > Xena needed a sidekick.>> Exactly! So Rob and RJ created the character of Gabrielle. > And then scripted that Gabrielle would use Xena to get out of Poteidea.>> Yes! Having first decided Xena would "use" Gabrielle as the "needed" sidekick who would help inspire the warrior on her quest. IOW, they did not create Xena to serve Gabs' needs. They created Gabs to serve Xena's. Which is why we see Xena noticing Gabs, before Gabs notices Xena. Thank you! > > Ta da! > > KT > A little traveling music please! DA DA DA DA DA DA, DA DA DA DA DA DA, DA > DA DA DA DA DAAAAAAAA! (Exit stage right with effusive arm waving) > Ditto. Bwahahahahaha! - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:15:34 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades > > Xena needed a sidekick.>> > > > Exactly! Classic story telling device as I mentioned earlier. > > So Rob and RJ created the character of Gabrielle. > > And then scripted that Gabrielle would use Xena to get out of Poteidea.>> > > > Yes! Having first decided Xena would "use" Gabrielle as the "needed" > sidekick who would help inspire the warrior on her quest. No, the use of Gabrielle as a helper on Xena's quest came much later. WAY after Gabrielle had used Xena to get out of Poteidea. At first she was just the little comic relief sidekick. And a little plot device who kept getting into trouble so that Xena could do the requisite number of fights per episode. And messing with Xena's horse and being generally incompetent and being a very fun typically fiesty tomboyish girl character who in most other works wants to do things boys do. In Xena's world, women do things boys usually do. I like that. As I said, later they expanded her character by having her fill a number of other archetype roles. IOW, they did not create > Xena to serve Gabs' needs. They created Gabs to serve Xena's. Which is why we > see Xena noticing Gabs, before Gabs notices Xena. Well, no, we see Xena noticing Gabrielle first because she's behind some bushes, having just buried her weapons. And because she's Xena. She notices EVERYBODY first. And in the very next scene, Xena tells "the kid" that she can't travel with her. And later at her mother's, she tells her she can't travel with her. And then that night, she gives her a blanket because the kid is cold, scared and helpless in the forest. And having nothing much better to do than to wander around and respecting the guts of the girl, AND having a tendencey to let folks follow her around if they want to (like Joxer, like Tara, like Amarice,) or in other words, to pick up strays along her journey who want to follow her for their own purposes, she lets herself be used by Gabrielle to get away from her boring town. Thank you! > "Hey. Quit that!" > > > > Ta da! > > > > KT > > A little traveling music please! DA DA DA DA DA DA, DA DA DA DA DA DA, DA > > DA DA DA DA DAAAAAAAA! (Exit stage right with effusive arm waving) > > > > Ditto. Bwahahahahaha! > > -- Ife For the sake of the sanity of the group, once again, I shall bow off this thread also and let you have the last licks on it. "You KNOW I'm right." KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:59:03 +0100 From: "A. Reddecliffe" Subject: [chakram-refugees] warrior women with Lucy Lawless Well this was fun. Lucy looked great and it was an interesting episode - the series started with Joan of Arc. It had a lot of reconstructions and Lucy doing the voice overs and appearing in the "these events happened in this very room" slots. She did a very good job of keeping the pace and keeping it interesting. It was nice to see her wielding a sword again. I am not too sure about the suit of armour she wore, she looked better in the wooly sweater. I wasn't taken with the cloak either, I am not sure how historically accurate that design was, it may simply have been that Joan of Arc had questionable taste in embroidery. There was a good selection of women historians being interviewed too. The weapons were interesting, especially the siege catapult and we definitely saw flashes of "Meg" when Lucy was playing with that. I think she was enjoying herself. The programme came out at about 48 minutes, which is OK for a UK cable channel, but some other countries or channels may find that too long and want to make cuts in it. This series cries out for an accompanying book and a video/ DVD release. It is just a pity it wasn't a co-production with the BBC which would almost guarantee these. Grace O'Malley next week and if it was as good as this week's then it will be a good hour. :-) Ann ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:21:51 -0500 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] warrior women with Lucy Lawless Gawd I wanna see this. Did we ever find out if its showing in the states? Or did I potentially miss that thread? Assuming there was a thread? And I missed it? It's a shame someone can't encode and seed these on BT. :( *HINT!* Steph ps. disclaimer - file sharing is evil! don't do it! bad, bad! (please hurry!) :) At 09:59 PM 10/16/2003 +0100, A. Reddecliffe wrote: >[snipperoo] >The programme came out at about 48 minutes, which is OK for a UK cable >channel, but some other countries or channels may find that too long and >want to make cuts in it. This series cries out for an accompanying book and >a video/ DVD release. It is just a pity it wasn't a co-production with the >BBC which would almost guarantee these. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:53:58 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades In a message dated 10/16/03 10:16:29 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << For the sake of the sanity of the group, once again, I shall bow off this thread also and let you have the last licks on it. "You KNOW I'm right." >> Okay, how 'bout we leave it at "Gabrielle was created to serve Xena's needs" - -- whether as comic relief, companion, plot device, archetype, or whatever. I didn't see even you dispute that. < beg> - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:25:50 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> And now back to F-F-F-Fates >KT wrote: > > For example, there has never been any indication in the real timeline that > > Xena ever wanted to be a benign ruler. She was originally motivated to > > become a warrior for defense of her homeland. When that went bad, she was > > "on the lam" and doing petty piracy to sustain herself when she met > > Caesar. >> > Ife replied: > But in "Destiny" there was certainly suggestion that she wouldn't mind ruling > and no indication that she wouldn't do it benignly -- as long as folks obeyed > her. In Destiny, our first view of her is as a pirate, standing in front of a village she's just burnt to the ground. And spouting with great condescension and swarminess her little scolding to: Xena: "People of Neopolitis. Friends-- you're free to go. But spread the word. My army will punish any village that allies itself with the enemies of Amphipolis. And I will do anything to ensure the safety of my homeland. Those who don't heed my warning-- will pay a terrible price." She's tough, she's vicious, she's the scourge of the area. And she's protecting her homeland. Sure, later she tells Caesar she's "bored" and wants to join forces with him. Because she loves to fight and to win. Xena: "Yes. I love (conquest). Pursuing the enemy. Breaking down his defenses. Cutting off his only path of retreat. And then closing for the kill." Notice how Caesar speaks to her only of conquest and how she responds with only talking about conquest. Not about ruling at all. Xena wanted to protect Amphipolis and then found out she really liked killing people and sacking their villages. And being the smart patootie she is, she can probably see that if Julie thinks he's going to conquer the world, there'll be a lot of that in their future. But I sure don't see anywhere in Destiny where she's leaning towards becoming a ruler rather than an invader. That DOES happen in the Herc Cross-over Armageddon of course. When she becomes the evil Conquerer AFTER she doesn't meet Hercules and get "turned" by him. And of course in that ep the minute she spies her soulmate, she orders her killed. And then calmly turns away and climbs back up to her throne as her men crucify Gabrielle and break her legs. Whooops! One of them musta blinked at the wrong time and messed up that "Soulmate Immediate Recognition" thing. Just as in "Destiny," I don't see that she's developed any grand > view of the world. She likes to ride, scrimmage with her men and be a suitably > "civilized" wife to the Emperor. Suitable "civilized wife"? Where the heck do you see that? Roman wives wore togas and seldom left the house. They sure didn't wear leather trousers and beat up the centurians. No doubt she gladly left the "big picture" > scheming and details to her husband. Unlike in the other timeline, there was > no need for her to aspire to more than that. > What? Again, where are you getting this conclusion from? Oh wait-you see this Xena as happy to be married to a man who'll take care of the details for the little woman eh? I don't know how to answer that because I don't see it in the show. But I will say again that the young woman from Destiny didn't seem that type to me. And in terms of wanting to learn about things that interested her and that would be useful to her, Xena ALWAYS aspired to more. She was the absolute mistress of what she did. The grrl just wasn't the type to sit back and let the little man handle things. Except for things she wasn't interested in. > > > > > But in this ep we are asked to believe that getting Caesar to be her > > boyfriend was a catalyst for Xena to become a benevolent ruler. > > Being married to Caesar > > has apparently made Xena a happy-go-lucky grrl. Watch her in the > > beginning when she comes in and plays around with him. This Xena is a > > sunny chick, filled with sunshine and smiles as she bounds happily up to > > her husband, Caesar. >> > > Which is almost exactly how she was on that beach after ransoming Caesar, > when he promised they'd meet again, as well as when she sees his ship coming and > excitedly prepares to meet him. She's like a girl infatuated with an > inordinately confidant man who promises power and adventure, someone she loves > sparring with. She's like an infatuated girl period. I don't think Caesar offered her much more adventure than she was already having. She figured it would be a different type of adventure. I don't believe they could have ever stayed together. Xena would have moved on before too long. She's just too competitive to follow someone else's dreams and schemes. > The difference is that she doesn't seem to love much more about him. What difference? Again, I have no idea what you're seeing that makes you say this. In fact, I'm not sure what you're saying here, to be honest. > I got the impression they had their separte interests, including at bed time. > Heh. > If I remember correctly, Xena seemed VERY surprised when Caesar left their bedroom. I always wondered just when Caesar and Alti first got it on. Was their first coupling a celebration of Xena giving up and dying for them? Or had they been having an affair before that? I don't think that's covered anywhere. > Also, it was pretty clear that Caesar actually "ruled" and left the military > stuff up to Xena. However, I'm sure the soldiers were a large, important > constituency, who affected the lives of others and had families. Apparently she > treated them well and required them to act honorably. Where is "required them to act honorably" shown? There's still obviously > classicism, and the people Caesar wants to feed and feel secure are probably > Romans. We don't know how they treated those they conquered. All in all, I > didn't find this Xena, her position or attitude to be exaggerated, but rather a > credible outgrowth of what we saw in "Destiny." The Xena before the credits is credible. It's when she falls into the (what did Thel call it?) the immediately non-savvy totally sappy mindset that the flimsy fabric of this episode rips into tiny little shreds. The wild young woman in Destiny just would never go there... The Xena in Fates is just an off-kilter characterization. Xena was smart, scheming, courageous, adaptable, persistant and ambitious WAY before she met Gabrielle. Gabrielle coming into her life didn't give her any of these qualities. And all of these qualities are missing in this story. > > > I think this Caesar had actually learned something from the past. He > realized what an asset Xena could be at his side. He got the more naive Xena who > hadn't become power hungry, She already was. She didn't become a pirate because of the health benefits. She wanted to be a scourge of the area to keep Amphipolis safe. > cunning, She already was. How else could she have gotten as far as she had. > mistrustful, She already was--she didn't trust M'Lila at first. And doesn't believe her advice when she warns her not to welcome Caesar with open arms. or experienced at political > intrigue and strategic domination. I think Xena always had intelligence and certainly her being successful at protecting Amphipolis showed some strategic ability. But I agree--political intrigue is just not something she ever really did take to. She relied on herself and her chakram more than on behind the scenes scheming. Hey--she didn't have her chakram in the Debt, did she? I just realized that. Now THAT is interesting. Why should he care if people loved Xena? Because then she's a rival of his. Remember his actions towards Pompey and even more telling, towards Crassius. Caesar doesn't like Romans hailing others as heros. He > had what he wanted -- power. I didn't see him worrying about whether people > liked him. No, he doesn't care if they like him, but he doesn't want them liking anyone else. I didn't see him as all that interested in the military aspects > except as a means to an end. I'm not sure what you mean by this either. Of course this is true--his final goal is not to be a soldier but to be the Emperor. Indeed, Xena was a good partner. She loved > fighting itself and inspired the genuine respect and affection he never could, which > could keep him from having to watch his back as much from folks like Brutus. I sure don't see that either. Remember when he first hauls Xena back after having broken his promise to give Gabrielle safe passage, Brutus warns him that Xena's very popular and the troops look up to her. Implying that they might possibly refuse to kill her. This of course gets totally ignored and was apparently nothing but empty dialogue to fill up space. > > > Alti had never realized her powers before? She had never grabbed somebody > > (all of whom presumably existed in both worlds as they did in the > > Sovereign shadow world on Herc) and hit upon any "real" memories before? >> > > I have to agree with you there. She provided a convenient way to stir up old > memories, but otherwise seemed weirdly out of place. As you say, the whole > changing fates thing was full of holes. However, once I accepted it for what > it was (which wasn't unusual for me to have to do), I decided Alti was a fairly > clever choice for a plot device. Well this is exactly the problem for me. I NEVER deny that most Xena eps have plot holes and oddly convenient "bits" and inexplicable actions with unlikely results. BUT Lucy as Xena papers those over for me. When there is no recognizable Xena in an ep, I tend to notice these little incosistancies. Xena was so non-Xena in this (despite having BEEN the real Xena) that even Lucy couldn't make this banal, simpering, swoony woman who got the vapors palatable, hell, not even watchable for me. > > > Would Gabrielle really have torched that loom without agonizing over > > changing everything that had happened for all the other people in it? If > > all the people exist in both worlds, for some of them, that world has to > > be a BETTER place. A place where perhaps THEY are not slaves or widows or > > murderers or dead. Indeed, how did Gabrielle know that she wasn't > > condemning all of them to total oblivion for her own selfish purposes?>> > > > Again, this Gabrielle had led a fairly sheltered life, compared to what she'd > experienced at Xena's side. I'd think you of all people would credit Xena > with teaching her about the "Greater Good," more than the other way around. I did--it's in my original post. "THIS Gabrielle is even less likely to torch the world than "our" Gabrielle is. MUCH less likely to have the oomph and initiative do so. (Of course, she had just almost been crucified, so that could account for some of her sudden fire.) And of course the Greater Good issue is not at play here because this Gabrielle never met Xena and so never realized that concept." However, the Greater Good means sacrificing yourself for others, not sacrificing others for yourself. Snip snip > > Gabrielle also had her own degree of pride and self-centeredness. She ended > up trying to "help" as much because she wanted to prove herself, to try > something new, or because it seemed like fun -- e.g., like bringing the Titans to > life, thinking she could actually control them, sneaking out to "fix" things. > The playwright in "Fates" had a similar shallowness. She lived in her "head," > with no real appreciation for how the beautiful ideas she wrote about actually > felt, how they might play out in the real world. Inexplicably she's drawn to > the Empress. Inexplicably, the Empress is inspired by her, saves her. > Finally she's experiencing and witnessing the ideals she's been writing about. Inexplicably indeed. That's exactly my point about this ep. GRIN > > I'm not sure what Gabrielle thought would happen when she destroyed the loom, > except possibly the ending of a world with less rhyme, reason or authenticity > than it was supposed to have. I saw a woman enraged by learning about and > losing love in the span of a few hours, a writer whose words up until then had > been empty and the life that produced them a lie, a bard-warrior who couldn't > prevent a huge injustice to the world, especially to the one person willing to > die for what Gabrielle had written about. > And where does that fire come from? It sure wasn't in the woman we saw in that ep. This woman would rather write about life than live it, unlike the real Gabrielle. And since she'd never become the "real" Gabrielle, what in her made her capable of this? As you say, "inexplicable". By the way, this is another big ol' gaffe. That loom is all there is. ALL the threads are there, just reconnected in another way. The Fates are now living in this new world too. (Have they been standing there holding their chains around them for ten years? Without any coffee breaks even?) The loom is spilling out all over the place because the Fates are not able to weave it. BUT the material is all there. When Gabrielle torches the material EVERYTHING should end. In fact, she scares the snot out of the Fates when she picks up the torch. They scream out that burning the loom will destroy everything. And Gabrielle replies, "So be it. Your loom destroyed what was meant to be." Now what the heck does THAT mean. It wasn't the loom that destroyed everything. It was Caesar's manipulation that did that. And this sure shows that Gabrielle is ready to destroy the world, kill everyone in it. (Gee and people complained when Xena turned a mere 10,000 Chineses men into stone in Bottle. Or was that Purity?) But of course, having Gabrielle destroy the world was not con VEN ient. So the obvious and logical result of burning up and destroying everyone's thread of life is totally overlooked. Instead, somehow the real world is returned. HOW? The tapestry of life is gone. Everybody's life thread has been burnt up. Yet the world returns to normal. Yeah, that makes sense... > > > > > Why is Gabrielle in this world not the lion hearted brave beyond her > > capabilities righteous defender of everybody that she was in "our" Xena > > world? What happened to her? Right from the start of the real timeline > > she was like that, so meeting Xena had not given her that blazing courage. > > Where did it go? Why is she so...ineffective and moony? Blech. THIS > > Gabrielle is even less likely to torch the world than "our" Gabrielle is. > > MUCH less likely to have the oomph and initiative do so. >> > > If "our" Gabrielle agonized over anything, it was over what wasn't "right." > What had happened to her, to Xena, to everyone else was "wrong" in every way. > "Wrong" particularly in how it had twisted and aborted the love she valued > so. She stood before that loom as a representative of humankind. Hark--I hear the orchestra music starting to swell...Is that the theme from Star Wars I hear? Grin She had the > courage to make a difference, even at the possible expense of her own life. And everyone else's who'd EVER lived. I'd > agree that what she did was selfish -- even arrogant and egotistical -- but > I'd say it was for unselfish reasons as well. No, the bard we initially saw > in "Fates" wasn't what she'd become at Xena's side, but she sure as heck ended > up as the Gabs I saw in "Ides," for many of the same reasons. > The Gabrielle in Ides was killing the people who were killing Xena. She wasn't killing any innocent bystanders nor attempting to destroy the entire world. This is quite different to me. > > fact that this ep is just not nearly so well done as many of the earlier > > ones were which showed the love between the two characters without > > sacrificing a good story to do so.>> > > > I also preferred the more subtle, day-to-day ways they showed their love for > each other. I thought some of the "I love you" moments in S6 seem > "manufactured." That said, I thought the mushiness was fitting for "Fates." > Retrospectively, I realize that the X&G we saw were in fact living the lives they may > have fantasized, but there was no depth to it, no life -- no blood and guts. The Xena I know would NEVER have fantasized herself that way. If they're going for fantasy in a subtext ep, then hell, Xena would be the Emperor and Gabrielle would be the Empress. Caesar wouldn't be in it except maybe as the chambermaid who empties the potty in the morning. > Gabrielle didn't know the meaning of her own words. Xena "played" house with > someone she probably loved less than her horse. Nope. The woman at the beginning of the ep had a real bond with her partner. As someone else said on another list, he felt as if two or maybe even three writers had worked on this script, since it was so disjointed. He specifically mentioned the change in Xena from being the happy, fun-loving, enjoying life, beaming at her partner women of the beginning of the ep to the moony, ineffectual, goober she became after meeting Gabrielle. Why wouldn't X&G's "instant" > attraction to each other and love have the superficiality of people who have just > met, who have to profess what all their experiences together allowed "real" X& > G to convey in a glance? > Fine, but what's that got to do with anything? They DID just meet. And I didn't notice X&G being terribly superficial in early season one. > > > Yes, it was in many ways like my concept of a bad romance novel -- which I > believe we could've seen routinely if not for the conflicts, lies, pain, and > other "bad" things we often go through to maintain relationships, but which some > people would rather not see in a "fantasy" TV show. Speaking of conflict, lies, pain and "bad" things, let me just say two words: Season Three. Which was loaded with ALL these things and which I GREATLY preferred seeeing in a "fantasy" TV show and which made that show a true myth in itself, rather than a silly parody of myths. Maybe "Fates" did pay > homage to the more idealized version of love. But in the end, it only confirmed > what I to prefer to see -- how the tests of life can make love stronger, more > meaningful and exciting. Meeting Gabrielle in this ep made Xena weaker, stupid, and a woman who gives up fighting. The Xena who was the adult of that "child" pirate, in other words, the real Xena would have taken off with Gabrielle and started their adventures at that point. The Xena who grew up from the child pirate could easily have gotten away herself and Gabrielle away from Caesar and never been caught by him. Well, not for long, anyway. But no, she's so dumb in this ep that she trusts the people whom she now knows are bad guys who loath her, one of whom has destroyed a whole world because he didn't like the way it ended for himself, to do the noble thing and just let Gabrielle go live in peace. Right. So because Xena gives up, it's up to Gabrielle to "pull a Caesar" and destroy everybody in this world because she doesn't like the way this world ended for herself. My X&G literally went through hell and high water > together. That's the life they preferred over their girlish fantasies, because > otherwise "love" was simply "mush." Yes--exactly like it was presented in Fates. There's no there there. "Fates" wasn't what I expected either. > But I'm starting to really appreciate how it focused on the flower yet made > me value the roots, the "dirt" that fed it, even more. Dead, somewhat disbelieving silence. ;-> > > I'm thinking this was more "anti" schmaltz, in terms of how it was shown as > originating falsely, blown to kingdom come, and dissed by "our" X&G gratefully > riding off into their "real" world. > Ife, you keep straining like that to find some gold in this ep and your neck veins are going to blow out. The lack of humor drove me nuts also. I don't think there's one ep that doesn't have something funny in it. And there were a few bits in this one. Everybody but Xena finding Gabrielle's play crappy, Joxer's few funny lines, the "It needed a fight" (which was added on set. It wasn't in the script.) But on the whole, this ep took itself far too seriously for such a piece of schmaltzy fluff. IFE: > I watch it now as more of a .... I can't think of the right word. Maybe > I'll stay with "homage." I don't think it's a parody exactly. It's like > Fugate's painting stock scenes from a romance novel, but trying to do it in a way > that's respectful to the characters and authentic in terms of how they might've > been wthout their "real" experiences. We know it's more of a veneer, because > we've seen what Caesar did. Gradually this thin layer cracks, gets rubbed > away. We see there's another painting underneath. If I didn't know X&G, I might > be intrigued, curious about what's going on. But part of the frustration is > that I already know what's underneath and wonder why Fugate would want to > "pretty up" what many of us already thought was beautiful, "truer." Now I'm > thinking that's the point. > Uh-huh. You keep telling yourself that, dear. > On one level, I'm seeing X&G in a new way, even if I'm not thrilled with > that. Still, I'm forced to speculate on how they might've been, if something like > that had happened. If I let myself, I can even get caught up in what's > happening between them, superficial as I know it to be. On another level, I can't > help but compare them with the "real" X&G. I ask myself, "Why is that > 'uncharacteristic?'" "How would my X&G have done it differently?" Once the veneer > has totally gone, I'm on yet another level, because X&G know who they are, yet > they haven't lived those lives and are still in another world. But they DON'T know who they are. How can they when they never lived that life? That's the BIG BLACK (plot) HOLE in the middle of this tripe. It's like > "my" X&G are still trapped in women who aren't quite them. Is this not MY point? Grin. They aren't revealed > until we see the final layer of the painting at the very end. > > Lord knows I'm not trying to change your mind about "Fates." (As if.) I > certainly wouldn't have voted for a whole ep focused on love, but if we had to > have one, I'm liking that Fugate did it this way. The other eps where they > stuck in "mush" didn't add anything and made me gnash my teeth even more. "Fates" > started me on "mush," stood "mush" on its head, turned it inside out, > gradually gave it more texture and subtance, and made it more palatable to me by > reminding me of the missing ingredients. I don't know if Fugate intended all > that, or if this is another example of my ability to rationalize almost anything. > More and more, I'm thinking it could be Fugate. I'm thinking it's you rationalizing plus you loving to argue with me. grin. I think anyone who has seen Fugate at the cons and heard her discuss her work would be hard pressed to think that she meant to be actually satirizing "mush". I think she just wanted to write a mushy love story and details like plot, believability and faithfulness to the characters just didn't matter. Same thing happens in many fanfics. > > > Help me, season six has turned me into a Fatuous Fury Fan and I can't shut > > up>> > > > Sure, sure, claim you want help, but there's no way you're gonna be able to > watch "Fates" with any semblance of neutrality. > > -- Ife I did that the first time around. The second time only reinforced the rightness of my original impression. KT whew. Oh gods--there's dozens MORE Fates posts to go! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. 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