From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #309 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, October 16 2003 Volume 03 : Number 309 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Charmed and Tarzan ["Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Charmed and Tarzan On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:13:24 -0400, "Cheryl Ande" wrote: >We all waited for Lucy. The WB really hypd her appearance with clips >from future episodes so I think they expect her to save the day. - --Well, she still might save the day, just by being so good-looking, but that still has yet to be seen. > First off let's say she was very good. Her scene with Jane had a nice >toughness to it; she even had a bit of that Xena stance in her when she >kicked Jane out of her house. - --Actually, I disagree with Cheryl on this. I was disappointed in how LL handled the role. I thought she seemed a bit lost, like in the Herc Trilogy, still trying to find her character's center. I think she should've made a strong choice for her motivation, then just gone ahead with it, whatever it turned out to be. But it looked like she was vascillating about where it was going, so it just turned out to be rather ambiguous. Like, why was she so angry at Jane? Jealousy? Suspicion? Why throw Jane out of her house, if she was giving Kathleen some info on her nephew? No make-ee sense-ee. Was her answer about giving away the trust frivolous or hiding something? The way LL played it made it sound frivolous. And for some reason, I just had the feeling LL didn't feel comfortable in modern attire. She seemed awkward, like she was looking for her leathers. ;) > Her scene with Mitche Peliggi was very touching - her offer to >settle the lawsuit was done with a lot of sincerity although I wasn't >quite sure of Kate wasn't also trying to feel her brother out about the >possibiliy her nephrew was alive. - --Again, I was unclear as to Kathleen's motivations. We know LL can play sad, but if there was an alterior motive (as Richard's reaction seemed to imply), she didn't disclose that to the audience. If all she was was sad, then it seemed too *mushy*. ;P And why was she satisfied to split the trust 2 ways? Most importantly, why is she still whispering?? ;P >Then of course we have her reunion with Tarzan - she and >Fimmel do look alike - blue eyes and the same facile structure - so they - --*That* was the best scene, by far. But it was the shortest. LL's reaction to seeing John was priceless. But that's her forte. ;) The rest of the time she seemed to be struggling with the American accent (ironic, since she could do it so well on XWP ;( ). Maybe she's just a bit out of practice. ;) I hope in future weeks LL fulfills her character's potential....;=/ Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * "I LOVED forgetting it because it really made it * * so _live_ and so _immediate_...!!" * * --Barry Manilow, Manilow Talks CD, 1998 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:55:36 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades In a message dated 10/14/03 10:11:05 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << At first Xena got nothing from Gabrielle. Initially Gabrielle was using Xena for her own purposes. And it wasn't mutual. Gabrielle had nothing to give her at first--which is why Xena kept "stashing" Gabrielle places as she went off to do her "work". This was before licensed day care centers, so she often had to leave her in bars. Where she got into trouble, running up bar bills and kissing boys. KT >> I'd written a scintillatingly brilliant response to this, but the computer I was using crashed before I could send it. (Insert snort from KT.) Cross my heart and all that. Since this is another case where we're running on horse poop fumes, I'll summarize the major points I remember: 1. Xena got something from Gabs first, when she saw the kid standing up to those slavers. Xena still would've saved those folks and probably unearthed her warrior stuff, but I think Gabs made it more "personal," gave it inspiration and meaning. Maybe Xena did feel she "owed" Gabs a ride when she let Gabs hop on Argo that first time, but it didn't extend to taking her with her after she left Cyrene. It's not why she made the choice to let Gabs join her that night. 2. Xena was a smart, honest woman who did as she pleased. I don't see her turning into a sap who carried extra baggage around out of guilt or pity. I don't see her giving short shrift to her quest, in order to devote time and energy to someone who served no purpose. If she let Gabs tag along, it was because that's what she wanted. Mutual. She got something she couldn't give herself -- joy, compassion, innocence, companionship, support, another perspective. These things were missing in her life (and not particularly forthcoming from other people). I believe she was smart enough to see she'd lucked up on that in Gabrielle, and that it would help her stay strong for her quest -- not weaken her. She didn't depend on Gabs for her fighting ability in the beginning, nor was that what she valued most in Gabs later. 3. Xena was used to depending on herself, not to traveling with innocent "civilians" and didn't want Gabrielle to get hurt. Why wouldn't she leave someone that inexperienced out of harm's way? Maybe some of us saw early Gabs as a nuisance, but I didn't get that feeling from Xena. She also found ways to include Gabs when she thought it prudent. She treated Gabs with patience and respect, if sometimes with (understandable) patronization. I do think she thought Gabs would come to her senses and go home, once her "I'm free" haze had worn off. I do believe she thought Gabs would be better off without her. But I don't think Xena thought her life would be better without Gabs. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:55:34 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] (WAS friend in Need) Xena as Jeeves In a message dated 10/14/03 11:53:49 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > Ife wrote: > > I absolutely agree that they didn't have the same relationship. Alti > intrigued Xena from the moment Xena sensed her and saw a demonstration of her power. > By "puppy dog," I mean the way Xena eagerly looks at Cyane and Alti during > their spiritual duel, the campfire scene, when Alti takes her to the Land of the > Dead to see Anokin (?), and when Xena finally delivers on the blood -- sort > of like, "Ooo, a nice new bone. I want! I want! Pant, pant, pant." << Boy I did not see anything remotely like that. I saw Xena absorbing the potential of the power that Alti had but certainly not respecting nor liking Alti in the least. She'll follow her to the land of the dead in order to see Anokin AND to check out that power also. But she never gives Alti herself any respect, nor does she bounce around her like a puppy dog like she bounces around Lao Ma. >> Grrrr. I didn't say "respected," "trusted," or "liked," darn it! Puppy dogs don't think about all that crap. They like the bone and whoever's got it to throw. Some will run heedlessly into a busy street to retrieve it -- oblivious to the danger. I saw Xena eagerly salivating at (while she was "absorbing") the power/bone, not at Alti herself. In Lao Ma's case, she also happened to like the person throwing the bone. I'm saying she was more like a puppy dog in her excitement and willingness to do whatever was asked of her to get that bone -- *not* in terms of any real affection. > > Like a puppy dog, Xena sure as heck knocks everything down in her path to get > the new new bone Alti waves in her face -- including shoving her partner > (Borias) to the side even more, threatening children, presumably killing someone > when she needs a body for Alti's rituals, and slaughtering the Amazons who > befriended her. Maybe she didn't like Alti and certainly it was for her own > purposes, but it sure looked liked pandering to me. Stupid pandering, as it turns > out, since Alti initially gets a lot more from the bargain than Xena. > > << Her attitude towards Alti was totally different than her attitude (when she was still crippled) towards Lao Ma. >> Ah. I see the root of some of our differences. I'm more comparing behaviors and results, making assumptions about "attitude" based on that. You're comparing attitudes and seeing differences in behavior based on that. I truly do see similarities in how early Xena behaves when she wants something, regardless of how she feels about the person who has it. I see her first priority as a single-minded, selfish focus on what she wants, with the other person as secondary. I see her able to abandon the other person as soon as she gets what she wants. You can tell me until the cows come home how much more Xena loved, respected, trusted Lao Ma than all those others. Fine. What I see is someone who followed Lao Ma around until she got what she wanted, then ran off to play in another yard. Yes, years later she realizes what a good "master" Lao Ma was. But at the time, I saw Xena focused as much or more on what Lao Ma could teach her. I don't like thinking of her that way, but I can't give it more depth, either, considering that she ultimately demonstrated the loyalty of a puppy dog. << Alti: "Yes-- we both live for power. But so far, your power's been limited to the world of blood-- and sweat." X: "I've done quite well in that world." >> Yes, a variation on young Xena's standard, arrogant response. She tried a bit of that with Lao Ma initially as well (e.g., "that's my meat you're taking"). Later on, however, she can't quite make that boast, since when Lao Ma saves her, she's got about as much as she had hanging on Caesar's cross. X: "You talk a good show, Alti, but all I've seen so far is a few disappearing acts." Xena is challenging and in-your-face aggressive with Alti. Dismissive and sarcastic, letting her know that Xena feels she already has considerable power. And Alti hasn't shown her much of anything new that looks useful. So far. >> Xena's already had a few demos of Lao Ma's power, yet still challenges her as well -- e.g., showing her she can destroy a vase with her foot, thank you very much, or rather dersively reffering to LM's affection for Pappa Tien's son and LM's seeming to play second fiddle to her husband. Yes, it's more subtle, more respectful, but it still shows a questioning mind that zeros in on any weakness, even in Lao Ma. << Alti was all talk for the most part--she's been tossed out by the Amazons, she's got no power base, no soldiers, she's got a few tricks for getting to the land of the dead, but so far, Borias can easily break her spells and pull Xena back out of the spiritual world that Alti has led her to. Of course she sneaks in the curse on Solon. If Xena had seen that...I imagine things might have been different for the Amazons. >> Yes, a very interesting point. Xena vastly underestimated Alti' s ultimate ability to use her powers to affect Xena's life, just as she underestimated the impact Lao Ma would eventually have on her. << X: "Is that what you wanted? Her blood?" (Editorial note from KT: Xena says this with some incredulity and disgust.) >> And short-sightedness and complete disregard for the enormous attrocity that produced Cyane's blood. If Xena hadn't been so focused on her own short-term "benefit," she might've asked herself why someone as ambitious as Alti would only be interested in the blood. << Alti: "Oh-- it will give me great power." X: "You better deliver on your part of the bargain." Alti: "Xena-- your destiny will be fulfilled, just as I promised." Again, threats, challenges, a touch of contempt and a caustic warning that she'd better come through. Xena knows that Alti has no honor, no not even the kind among thieves. Xena knows she's a user. And is not totally certain if she's nothing more than mostly hot air. >> And is totally wrong. She does the same with Lao Ma, dismissing the greater powers once she's gotten her legs back. Again, totally wrong. << And > Alti didn't even have to save her (twice), wash her hair, heal her legs, rope her > in, or beat the crap out of her, yet still got better immediate results than > Lao Ma. Yep, that Xena sure knew how to show and repay kindness, eh? No she didn't. She did know how to grab power though. As with Alti and Odin. BUT with them that's all she wanted--a crack at getting their knowledge and power for her own use. But only with Lao Ma and only when she was crippled, did she also offer subservience. >> LOL! See my preceding comment. I'm not sure "offer" reflects everything that went into Xena's acceptance of Lao Ma's tutelage. I'm also not sure "grab" reflects the murdering and simpering pretension of love that she exchanged for the power she got from Alti (which was imaginary, since we still see her thinking it's the Ixion Stone that'll cement her destiny as Destroyer of Nations) or from the Rheingold (which she lost almost as soon as she got it). Again, it's only later that she actually puts those powers into practice, just as with Lao Ma's. but she's the one > expecting they'll meet again to consummate something. He never promises her > anything except that they'll simply meet again. > Right. And she was wrong. >> Again. <> Yet she discovers later that he has taught her something about love, honor and negotiation. KT: > > > Xena does not need to be subservient to Lao Ma to be a student. She does > > not need to be truly subservient to others to learn Lao Ma's Way. She only > > needs to ACT as if she is. But with Lao Ma, it's not acting as if she was > > subservient. She IS subservient towards her. This just manifests in a > > natural way, beyond what Lao Ma is trying to teach her. >> > Ife: > What else was she a "student" of, besides Lao Ma's Way? How to put her hair > in a bun? How to behave in "polite" society? Yes, exactly--this is exactly what demonstrates Xena's subservience to me. Nobody else gets to dress her up like a Barbie doll. Nobody else gives her lessons in how to be a good maid. >> True. They merely get her to betray, slaughter and/or mistrust innocent people and those who've befriended her. She was used to assuming the trappings of whatever culture she was trying to learn from. Her "Barbie doll" look was also a disguise, certainly as necessary for being around Pappa Tien as her obsequious behavior. Sorry, but when I weigh what Alti got Xena do to vs. Lao Ma - -- with far less investment -- I can't be too impressed by gimpy, no-place-else-to-go Xena's willingess to wear different clothes and hair-dos. Ife: > > Yes, Xena did not believe in Lao Ma's Way in her bones. Her loyalty to Lao > Ma was not connected in some fundamental way to Lao Ma herself. Once she no > longer feels she needs Lao Ma's power, she doesn't need Lao Ma either. No, but she never forgot what Lao Ma did for her. Xena is ever loyal to her friends and to people who help her (whom she then considers her friends). >> Woopedoo. What evidence do we have that Lao Ma had much impact on Xena's behavior in the years between her leaving Lao Ma and her reformation? Again, I'm talking about Xena as she was "then," not the Xena who miraculously realized Lao Ma or Borias' positive influence sometime after meeting Hercules. I'm not arguing that she didn't love or remember such people in her way, only that I did not see the same depth at the time, as you apparently do. << Ife--this is just going to have to be one of those times when we accept that we're never going to agree on this. >> Well, I do agree with you that young Xena had more genuine feelings for Lao Ma and that she put herself in Lao Ma's hands more than anyone else we saw. We agree that Lao Ma made an impression on her deep enough to surface years later. I guess we'll always disagree on the reason(s) for, depth, expression, impact, or uniquess of Xena's affection for or subservience to Lao Ma. Would you agree? << You know, I just remembered something else. > Oh goodie. << On another list a few years ago, we talked about how almost no one was ever kind to Xena. But Lao Ma was. And this could be it too. Lao Ma seemed to truly love Xena and to respect her potential. Xena didn't get that from a lot of people. Very few people respected Xena. And she responded to the kindness of Lao Ma also. >> I agreed with that a long time ago. I don't think she understood it at first, given her experiences with others. I think she was beginning to believe there was no ulterior motive in Lao Ma's kindness. Even after she got her legs back, she might've continued learning to trust the purity of Lao Ma's motives. What's unfortunate is that Xena is able to put it on a level she can understand, once she learns about the Warrior Princess thing. This concept shrivels Lao Ma down to the size of others who want something from Xena, however unfairly that dismisses Lao Ma's true affection. Lao Ma needed a lot more time working with Xena on self-denial and subservience, though I'm not sure that Xena would've been ready or ever willing to serve as the Warrior Princess Lao Ma had in mind. > > I don't see "avenging" so much as wallowing in sorrow over them. Only > > focusing the loss, not the things they'd given her, as you say. This is > > part of why she replies to Gabrielle's suggestion that "People say you > > should examine your life" with, "They haven't lived mine." >> > > > LOL. If her actions after Cortes, M'Lila's death, Akemi's suicide, etc. are > any indication, her "wallowing in sorrow" meant a lot of bloody handkerchiefs. > > -- Ife For those who killed them, yes. But for Xena herself--she's drowning in sorrow for the ghosts of her past whom she loved. Endlessly drowning in sorrow. << How about "drowning her sorrows in blood" as opposed to tears? KT Off this thread for good. At this point we're beating a dead horse's fleas. (That's not to say it might not be referred to in future arguments...) >> LOL! It's all "fair game." Fleas, hairs, poop -- we don't overlook anything! - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #309 **************************************