From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #308 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, October 15 2003 Volume 03 : Number 308 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Charmed and Tarzan [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] Najara defeats Xena! [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Najara defeats Xena! [Lee Daley Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OS: Charmed and Tarzan On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:13, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Jennifer Sky was on Charmed last night. Although Jenny McCarthy got all > the publiicity Jennifer had the bigger and more important role. She was > blond and evil and she was very good in the role. > Taking a leaf out of Callisto's book? ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:04:22 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades > > KT wrote: > > > > I would still argue that it is > > not right to say that Gabrielle never used Xena. At first she couldn't > > care less about Xena in any specific way. A long time ago I wrote that I > > felt that Xena loved specifice individuals while Gabrielle loved > > "humanity" in a general sense. Again, it's the difference between an > > idealistic kid and a person with a fascinating past. >> > Ife replied > > We could say we all "use" each other in some way. Xena "used" Gabs > as a sounding board, playmate, "moral compass," whatever. I would also agree > that Gabs loved in a more general sense. However, I think there's ample > evidence she had unique feelings for Xena and that they're "using" of each other > was mutually sought and beneficial. > I repeat: > > But at first she's just using her presence and her patience as a ticket > > out of Poteidea. >> > At first Xena got nothing from Gabrielle. Initially Gabrielle was using Xena for her own purposes. And it wasn't mutual. Gabrielle had nothing to give her at first--which is why Xena kept "stashing" Gabrielle places as she went off to do her "work". This was before licensed day care centers, so she often had to leave her in bars. Where she got into trouble, running up bar bills and kissing boys. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:47:29 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] (WAS friend in Need) Xena as Jeeves > > Ife wrote: > > > > > >Again, I saw Xena as puppy-doggish with Alti. > > I replied: > > > > Oh, I didn't see that at all. > > Ife (of course) answered: > > I absolutely agree that they didn't have the same relationship. Alti > intrigued Xena from the moment Xena sensed her and saw a demonstration of her power. > By "puppy dog," I mean the way Xena eagerly looks at Cyane and Alti during > their spiritual duel, the campfire scene, when Alti takes her to the Land of the > Dead to see Anokin (?), and when Xena finally delivers on the blood -- sort > of like, "Ooo, a nice new bone. I want! I want! Pant, pant, pant." Boy I did not see anything remotely like that. I saw Xena absorbing the potential of the power that Alti had but certainly not respecting nor liking Alti in the least. Alti brought out the worst in Xena and I think Xena realized that fully. Xena holds herself away from Alti in some ways--she is never relaxed around her. She never fully trusts Alti. Yeah, she'll use her to get her power, but she's not about to let Alti get power over her. She'll follow her to the land of the dead in order to see Anokin AND to check out that power also. But she never gives Alti herself any respect, nor does she bounce around her like a puppy dog like she bounces around Lao Ma. > > Like a puppy dog, Xena sure as heck knocks everything down in her path to get > the new new bone Alti waves in her face -- including shoving her partner > (Borias) to the side even more, threatening children, presumably killing someone > when she needs a body for Alti's rituals, and slaughtering the Amazons who > befriended her. Maybe she didn't like Alti and certainly it was for her own > purposes, but it sure looked liked pandering to me. Stupid pandering, as it turns > out, since Alti initially gets a lot more from the bargain than Xena. > > Her attitude towards Alti was totally different than her attitude (when she was still crippled) towards Lao Ma. Look at the exchanges between Xena and Alti. (Again from a Whoosh transcript--I tried and tried to watch Sin Trades again but just couldn't squeeze the time in) When they are sitting by the fireside: Alti: "Yes-- we both live for power. But so far, your power's been limited to the world of blood-- and sweat." X: "I've done quite well in that world." Alti: "Yes-- but imagine-- what you'd do if you had the spiritual force to match the power of your army. You'd be unstoppable. Anything could be-- in your reach-- Greece, Egypt-- Rome-- Caesar." X: "You talk a good show, Alti, but all I've seen so far is a few disappearing acts." Xena is challenging and in-your-face aggressive with Alti. Dismissive and sarcastic, letting her know that Xena feels she already has considerable power. And Alti hasn't shown her much of anything new that looks useful. So far. This is something she NEVER indicated to Lao Ma. Because she knew that Lao Ma had a greater power, a true spiritual power. Lao Ma showed Xena her power in a very personal way. Heh. The only time Xena is at all snotty towards Lao Ma (after she's saved her) is when she jives her about her feeling towards M'ing Tien. How that boy can get to her everytime. And Lao Ma rather than getting angry or denying it, just calmly says, "Just because we give birth to them doesn't mean we own them." And it blows Xena away. (I always figure she's thinking, 'Holy caca--wait until she finds out that I bricked the boy up! She'll be tossing me around the room again for sure'.) Later of course after Xena's got her legs and her familiar power back, all bets are off. Alti was all talk for the most part--she's been tossed out by the Amazons, she's got no power base, no soldiers, she's got a few tricks for getting to the land of the dead, but so far, Borias can easily break her spells and pull Xena back out of the spiritual world that Alti has led her to. Of course she sneaks in the curse on Solon. If Xena had seen that...I imagine things might have been different for the Amazons. Then after Xena kills all of the Amazon leaders: X: "All right, I delivered." Alti: "You did, indeed." X: "Is that what you wanted? Her blood?" (Editorial note from KT: Xena says this with some incredulity and disgust.) Alti: "Oh-- it will give me great power." X: "You better deliver on your part of the bargain." Alti: "Xena-- your destiny will be fulfilled, just as I promised." Again, threats, challenges, a touch of contempt and a caustic warning that she'd better come through. Xena knows that Alti has no honor, no not even the kind among thieves. Xena knows she's a user. And is not totally certain if she's nothing more than mostly hot air. And > Alti didn't even have to save her (twice), wash her hair, heal her legs, rope her > in, or beat the crap out of her, yet still got better immediate results than > Lao Ma. Yep, that Xena sure knew how to show and repay kindness, eh? No she didn't. She did know how to grab power though. As with Alti and Odin. BUT with them that's all she wanted--a crack at getting their knowledge and power for her own use. But only with Lao Ma and only when she was crippled, did she also offer subservience. > > Caesar--Xena definitely at first felt superior with Caesar--remember how > > she orders him to her bed chamber and then stalks him across the bed. >> > > Whatever superiority she felt didn't last long. I think she believed she had > the upper hand, since he was, after all, her "prisoner." She believed she > could seduce him, with both her body and her other ... skills. Yes. Well, she did. Physically. Just not mentally. Like he did her. > > > She's girlish and happy when he comes back, yes. But she's still thinking > > of herself as his equal--that they will rule the world together as > > partners. Because they are both the same type of person. Unlike Lao Ma in > > her eyes, who has a very different and totally new type of power and > > skills. Xena can learn from Lao Ma. She doesn't expect to learn anything > > much from Caesar. > > > She saw a man of the world who could speak several languages, knew the > political landscape of places she'd only heard about and had absolute confidence in > his "plan" for using all that to gain power. She's bored with pirating, > senses she could do better. She's mystified by his grasp and sense of a destiny > that's only a blur to her. Why wouldn't she think she could learn from him? In > her naive arrogance, she probably saw herself as an equal, Exactly. but she's the one > expecting they'll meet again to consummate something. He never promises her > anything except that they'll simply meet again. > Right. And she was wrong. She's joyful when he comes back, but she also starts a seductive dance with him just before he puts the knife at her throat. She stands up to him as the person who captured him and held him for ransom. Until Caesar evened the score by capturing her, she considered herself to have one up on him. I saw their connection as much like her connection with Borias. I don't think she expected Borias to teach her much either. They were just both excellent warriors and comrades in arms. And lovers. Same-o, same-o. snip snip KT: > > > Xena does not need to be subservient to Lao Ma to be a student. She does > > not need to be truly subservient to others to learn Lao Ma's Way. She only > > needs to ACT as if she is. But with Lao Ma, it's not acting as if she was > > subservient. She IS subservient towards her. This just manifests in a > > natural way, beyond what Lao Ma is trying to teach her. >> > Ife: > What else was she a "student" of, besides Lao Ma's Way? How to put her hair > in a bun? How to behave in "polite" society? Yes, exactly--this is exactly what demonstrates Xena's subservience to me. Nobody else gets to dress her up like a Barbie doll. Nobody else gives her lessons in how to be a good maid. For crying out loud, she lets Lao Ma make her into a Mini Me. (Though with the respective sizes of Lucy and Jacqueline, Biggie Me is a more apt term.) Ife: > > Yes, Xena did not believe in Lao Ma's Way in her bones. Her loyalty to Lao > Ma was not connected in some fundamental way to Lao Ma herself. Once she no > longer feels she needs Lao Ma's power, she doesn't need Lao Ma either. No, but she never forgot what Lao Ma did for her. Xena is ever loyal to her friends and to people who help her (whom she then considers her friends). She was loyal to Lao Ma forever. She was certainly not loyal in any way to Alti nor to Caesar, both of whom she fought endlessly, whenever they appeared in her life. (And only giving up to them and letting them beat her once--in Fates.) True, > the need will surface much later. I'll agree it was "genuine" long term. > Short-term, Xena treated it like a puppy dog that manages to break from its leash > and run joyfully into traffic. > Yup. Again, once her legs were healed, she was back on the road again. However, she still came when Lao Ma beckoned. As she did with a number of others, though it was only Lao Ma to whom we ever saw her subservient. Ife--this is just going to have to be one of those times when we accept that we're never going to agree on this. Like the line in Tsunami. I still consider that line totally bogus. NOT because it was rude or it made the guy feel bad, but just because Xena would never compare her character with another's and declare her's better. Nope, we are never gonna agree on either of these things. snip snip KT: > > > > No--you're denying it. You don't see it so you can't possibly explain it. > > (Though that WOULD be a very Zen exercise. This doesn't exist. This is why > > it does.) Heh. >> > > Ife: > I'm not denying it. I'm saying Xena had practical reasons, along with (and > underlying) her emotional ones. I think you're looking for a deeper > "something" -- e.g., love, respect? -- I just don't believe early Xena was capable of, > at least not consciously or to the point of subjugating her self-interest. > It's perfectly logical to me that she would behave as she did, particularly after > she'd lost everything that mattered to her and been rescued by someone who > seemed willing to give her that and more. > You know, I just remembered something else. On another list a few years ago, we talked about how almost no one was ever kind to Xena. But Lao Ma was. And this could be it too. Lao Ma seemed to truly love Xena and to respect her potential. Xena didn't get that from a lot of people. Very few people respected Xena. And she responded to the kindness of Lao Ma also. Sure Lao Ma wanted to use her too--that's why she fixed her legs, so she could become her Warrior Princess. (Notice it's not Warrior QUEEN.) But Lao Ma also genuinely enjoyed Xena--she LAUGHS at her when she's furiously trying to break the vase with her mind. And Xena merely scowls at her--she doesn't kill her for laughing at her. Talk about Xena being subservient... Grin. > > I don't see "avenging" so much as wallowing in sorrow over them. Only > > focusing the loss, not the things they'd given her, as you say. This is > > part of why she replies to Gabrielle's suggestion that "People say you > > should examine your life" with, "They haven't lived mine." >> > > > LOL. If her actions after Cortes, M'Lila's death, Akemi's suicide, etc. are > any indication, her "wallowing in sorrow" meant a lot of bloody handkerchiefs. > > -- Ife For those who killed them, yes. But for Xena herself--she's drowning in sorrow for the ghosts of her past whom she loved. Endlessly drowning in sorrow. KT Off this thread for good. At this point we're beating a dead horse's fleas. (That's not to say it might not be referred to in future arguments...) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:58:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Meredith Tarr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: There was Buffy, then there was Uma Hi, - --- "S. Wilson" wrote: > I am caught mostly wondering, after seeing the movie > twice now, does Uma > know martial arts? If not, she has a double that > looks exactly like her. I haven't seen the movie yet (haven't had time, though I do plan to see it this weekend no matter what!), but I did read that Uma did three months of intense, all-day training with (the guy who did the fight choreography for _The Matrix_ and _Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon_ as well as _Kill Bill_) prior to the start of filming. So yeah, I'd say now she does know martial arts. :) > (it was originally intended to be > one movie, 3 hrs., but the studio asked Tarantino to > split it). This really surprised me, especially given that the LOTR movies are all well over three hours long and plenty of people are willing to sit through those!! Oh well. The studio gets to double their receipts this way, so I suppose from that standpoint it's a shrewd marketing maneuver. > If Uma doesn't win something for this, I will be > UTTERLY mystified and > probably really cranky. She won't win an Oscar, if that's what you're getting at. Genre movies like this never do. > I am not a beer, at least, I don't think that I am. You're making a funny, right? :} Meredith __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:38:23 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OS Charmed repeat Any Jennifer Sky fans her Charmed will be on TNT tonight at 10PM EST. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:28:37 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Najara defeats Xena! Variety, Oct. 6, 2003, p. 23, has a chart showing the opinions of reviewers from 11 newspapers and magazines (TV Guide, LA Times, etc.) on the new TV shows. Cold Case, starring Kathryn Morris, has 6 pro, 3 con and 2 mixed. Tarzan, with Lucy Lawless, has 4 con, 3 mixed, no pro; ignored by 4 reviewers. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:49:10 -0400 From: Lee Daley Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Najara defeats Xena! At 08:28 PM 10/14/2003 -0400, Boeotian wrote: >Variety, Oct. 6, 2003, p. 23, has a chart showing the opinions of reviewers >from 11 newspapers and magazines (TV Guide, LA Times, etc.) on the >new TV shows. Cold Case, starring Kathryn Morris, has 6 pro, 3 con >and 2 mixed. Tarzan, with Lucy Lawless, has 4 con, 3 mixed, no pro; >ignored by 4 reviewers. If it wasn't for Lucy, I would be with the 4 reviewers who ignored it. The concept HAS potential and maybe all the rewriting and recasting will help. The things we do for our addiction. LeeD ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #308 **************************************