From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #300 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, October 8 2003 Volume 03 : Number 300 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> (fwd) [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades [IfeRae@a] Re: [chakram-refugees] US Warrior Women Doc Help [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] (WAS Xena's Wild Streak) Actually FATES, dammit! [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] (WAS friend in Need) Xena as Jeeves [IfeRae@aol.co] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 1 [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:16:41 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 1 mind-boggling snippage > > > > Actually, I've thought for a while that the only person I could possibly > > imagine as Xena other than Lucy just MIGHT be Claudia Clark. While not so > > classically beautiful as Lucy, she is extremely attractive in a unique > > way. But best of all, she play Aeryn as a totally believable warrior. Of > > course, she had an obvioius role model in Lucy as Xena. > > I suggested that a while back (and got rubbished for it). Really? Where? Here? On reflection, > while I like Claudia Black, I don't think I would now suggest her as Xena. > IMO, she doesn't have quite the intensity that LL could generate. I'm > really not sure who does. > Well for me, no one does. As I said, Claudia MIGHT have pulled it off since she does such an excellent job in Farscape as a true warrior. And had Claudia gotten the part of Xena, we'd never know what we were missing. Thank the gods Rob fell for Lucy. And that she actually had talent...grin. > > Lucy didn't have much to guide her. Most other girl-as-male-type-hero > > stories are a linear transformation that show the female ramping up > > through challenges to become the hero. Lucy had to BE the hero from the > > beginning--no girly bits were first played and then left behind, > > no lead up to how she became this way. Nope, she had to present herself as > > this > > best-warrior-in-the-known-world-who-happens-to-be-a-woman right from day > > one. And she did a damn fine job at that. > > She did indeed. Of course, while it was new for Lucy, TPTB did have > experience in half-a-dozen previous eps, in writing tough women, and I'm sure > that helped a lot. > > It wasn't entirly new for LL, though, she did have that part in Herc and the > Amazon Women as Lysia (was it?) the Amazon war leader, to draw on. Yeah, but she was just a lieutenant there. That tiny Roma Downey was the big Kahuna. OBVIOUSLY, since she got Herc. Lucy is just so YOUNG in that movie. (Who, > ironically, ended up with Zeus for a one-night stand. Hmmm. Pity TPTB > never worked that one into the Xena backstory. It would have been - > intriguing. ;) LOL! That WOULD have been prime. Not only for Herc, having him realize that he and dad had both made love to that hot patootie, but how about Ares also knowing that Xena had slept with Zeus. ESPECIALLY if Ares WAS her father--which means of course that his daughter woulda been screwing her own grandpa. Hooooeeeeeee. Wonder how THAT would have played with the studio's focus groups. Heh. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:14:29 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> (fwd) > > The beginning of Fates had so much promise. At first I was SUPER excited > > to see Caesar and Alti and a different Xena. What a great premise. And > > then...it just lapsed into typical bad fanfic slop, evaporated into banal > > schmoopiness and ended with gleefully wreaking some major damage on the > > life and dignity of the hero. > > You didn't care for the ep, huh? ;) You DO have a sharp, discerning eye. ;-> > > Would Gabrielle really have torched that loom without agonizing over > > changing everything that had happened for all the other people in it? If > > all the people exist in both worlds, for some of them, that world has to > > be a BETTER place. A place where perhaps THEY are not slaves or widows or > > murderers or dead. Indeed, how did Gabrielle know that she wasn't > > condemning all of them to total oblivion for her own selfish purposes? > > At that point, she didn't care. I suppose she was as smitten by sudden > savvy-destroying love-at-first-sight as Xena was. > LOL! That's a GREAT way to put it. I like that phrase. grin. > Also very bad tactics was not letting Caesar kill Alti right then and there, > after Alti had attacked her. A sudden attack of the James Bond Villain > Syndrome - "No Mister Bond, I'm not going to kill you right now, I'm going to > leave you in this fiendish trap so you have every chance to escape and come > after me again". "No--I want to kill her. In public. In the forum. HA!" And next thing ya know, Xena's hanging on a cross. With no broken leg, no sliced spine, nothing to keep her from jumping down and mopping the floor up with the bad guys. But NOOOOOOOOO, she just hangs there, whimpering. And leaving Gabrielle in their hands. > > > > > The "It needed a fight" line was wildly amusing to me since the real > > Fallen Angel was so loaded with super spectacular, special effects laden, > > LOOOOONG fight scenes. They apparently were missing in this version of > > it. No wonder Gabrielle could only make it as a bard in this oh so caring > > and nurturing world where only Caesar and Alti are vicious. > > Oh, I did like that line though. Nice external reference to Rob's known > preferences. Yeah I LOVED it. That line wasn't in the script by the way. Fugate pouted a bit at the con last year about them sticking it in there. > > And I gotta admit that on the cross, when Xena "Marilyn Monroed" our her > > breathy, "I LOVE you Gabrielle", my honey and I both burst out > > laughing--it was just too over the top. > > > > A bud of mine on another list said that though she loved this episode, she > > literally turned the TV off at that moment, because it hit 100 on her > > cringe-o-meter. > > Me too. > > Howcome the *only* crucifixion they got right was in Destiny? > Ides was doing brilliantly till Disneyland struck in the last ten seconds of > the ep. This one in WFC was really gritty - until Love struck - yeah, > that's just exactly what doesn't go through the mind of someone like Xena > about to be crucified, I think. I guess Monty Python were equally > incongruous with "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life" but then they > _wanted_ to get a laugh. > Yeah. As I've said before I always bust out laughing in Bitter Suite when Xena suddenly breaks into song on the cross. It's just so damn incongruous. Even though I love that ep, singing on a cross is just too silly for my suspension of disbelief bar. > > And I agree with that. It's a PURE schmaltzy bad fanfic take. I don't > > think Fugate writes fanfic and I believe I read in the official mag that > > she's not online or wasn't on line when she was tapped to write this one. > > I think she has a good future in fanfic. > > Now from *some* fans, that line would be a compliment. 8-) That comment got me in trouble the first time I wrote it. Heh. > > Okay, so I didn't hate it as much as you did. Much of it I found quite > watchable. Mostly because, I think, I'm a sucker for these little oblique > 'insider' references to other eps or past history (though Clones did that > better); and as always LL and Claire were very good. > Yes they were. I always love seeing those two big powerful women in opposition. As my four year old nephew says, "Scawy". > And I also have a very well-developed 'subtext-ignore' mechanism (or it > should probably rather be 'schmaltz-ignore') that can cope with almost > anything up to expressions of undying love - but I will admit, that moment on > the cross was way beyond its limits. ;) > > cr > Yeah, it was the sappiness that dragged this ep down for me. I enjoy the sub-text, especially when it's presented as teasing and when people toss out lines about it, like Lucifer's reply to Xena's "You and I have much in common." Lucifer: "Of course we do. You're a mortal female with a lying tongue, savage tendencies and a blonde girlfriend. I'm a celibate archangel in the service of the Lord." And Caligula's, "She and that-that-that bard of hers. Yeah, like we don't know what's going on there, huh?" And best of all, Xena's reply to Nigel's "Are you lovers?" "Well, technically...BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ". The love between Xena and Gabrielle is profound, beautiful and totally life-enhancing for both of them. We all hope we have love like that in our lives. So no, the sub-text doesn't turn me off. It's the fact that in Fates, their love diminishes both of them. Particularly Xena, making her naive, stupid, whingey, and worst of all, a person who gives herself up to her enemies machinations. The 17 or so year old Xena who existed in both the "real XWP world and in this alt world would never have grown up to become a woman who did that. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:16:39 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Xena's wild streak > > You know your are right. Gabrielle does love Xena for her wild streak and > > that is certainly what attracts her. She is also as footloose as Xena. > > It's Gabrielle that wants to go trapsing off to India, isn't it? About the > > only time she seems to consider settling down is in that one Amazon epsiode > > where she gets painted blue. Of course it doesn't last long does it. > > > > CherylA > > Yeah that blue paint wears off real fast. > > cr > > ... visualising Season 6 with a blue Gabrielle ;) The Smurf arc. I could see it... Renee barefoot, blue and pregnant. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 04:15:54 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades In a message dated 10/7/2003 3:51:37 PM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Subj: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all > trades > Date: 10/7/2003 3:51:37 PM Central Daylight Time > From: fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu > To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org > Sent from the Internet > > > > I'm breaking this reply in two--it's just too darn big > > Snip snip > > KT wrote: > > < had > > for her own purposes. And yeah, she always thought she was wiser than Xena > > was in terms of people and their motivations. Which of course only showed > > how naive she was and how she had absolutely no idea of the life that Xena > > had led. >> > > > Ife answered > > > > >I guess I'm reacting to "use" in the negative or impersonal sense I'm > getting > >from what you say. As to Gabrielle, I just don't see her desire to travel > >with Xena as nearly on par with what Caesar, Alti, Lao Ma, etc. had in > mind. > >Initially, all she wanted to do was escape Poteidaia, to do what Xena did, > to > >learn from Xena. I don't see that she needed Xena as an instrument for > some > >plot or grand plan. > > > True. But this is just a matter of degree. I would still argue that it is > not right to say that Gabrielle never used Xena. At first she couldn't > care less about Xena in any specific way. A long time ago I wrote that I > felt that Xena loved specifice individuals while Gabrielle loved > "humanity" in a general sense. Again, it's the difference between an > idealistic kid and a person with a fascinating past. >> We could say we all "use" each other in some way. Xena "used" Gabs as a sounding board, playmate, "moral compass," whatever. I would also agree that Gabs loved in a more general sense. However, I think there's ample evidence she had unique feelings for Xena and that they're "using" of each other was mutually sought and beneficial. > But at first she's just using her presence and her patience as a ticket > out of Poteidea. >> She saw someone living the life she wanted to have. It inspired her to leave on her own. She no doubt would've kept walking, if Xena'd told her to go fly a kite -- or jump in the lake, since Xena hadn't invented kites yet. > > Now, Tapert and Stewart being the creative folks that they are, with > Gabrielle, they quickly moved away from the stereotype of the sidekick. I > firmly believe that one reason for this was that this was new ground. The > female hero is rare. Therefore a sidekick for a female hero is also a very > rare character. >> One of the interesting aspects of the S1 bonus DVD of the directors' comments is how much they enjoyed working on an "action" show with such emotional depth. I think it's Stewart who says some of his favorite scenes are between Xena and Cyrene and between Gabs and Lila. I think you're right, in that it might never have occurred to them to imagine quiet, introspective or "feeling" dialogues to the extent that we got on such a women-centered show. > > Gabrielle embodied not only the sidekick and the best friend, but the > archetype "Girlfriend" character also. The Girlfriend embraces the > civilized world. She tries to stop the hero from committing violence. She > stands for the normal, everyday, orderly life of peace and comfort. She > often begs the hero to stop being a hero, to stop fighting and come sit by > her side at home. Where they will draw the curtains on that evil world > outside and the nasty people in it. This is obviously the role Gabrielle > epitomized in the Price. "Leave them alone and they'll leave us alone." > Uh-huh.>> Aw, I was with you until that last bit. Gabrielle wanted to understand them as humans, not "things" you could only deal with by killing. She wanted the Roman soldiers to be treated as humans, rather than canon fodder or useless "things" you let die. She wanted Xena to be human, as opposed to a calculating, ruthless machine. Perhaps it's harder to fight a war like that, but I think that was her point. She wasn't advocating doing nothing, but looking for alternatives to slaughter. Anyway, yes, characters like Gabrielle in many of her manifestations are> > essential to a classic hero's story. Tapert and his writers, by combining > a number of archetypes in one person, created a very complex character. > And a lot of confusion in fandom about her role and her "real" > relationship with Xena. Which is certainly part of the plurality of the > relationships--there WERE many relationships between these characters. > Fans responded to and related to all of them. Though some fans deny some > of them, they all exist. And are all given credence in the show, though > not usually all at the same time. Different eps showcase different > relationships. Whew--no WONDER we're so splintered... >> Excellent point. > > > >As to Xena, "used" suggests to me that Xena was herself naive or helpless > to > >the point where she was forced to do something she didn't have a hand in > >making possible. > > > Oh no, that's not the way I mean it. She was often compliant with "being > used" in order to achieve her own agenda. Mutual usage in other words. >> LOL! Sounds a bit like a "have my cake and eat it to" form of "used," but I'll bite. A little bite. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 04:15:55 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] US Warrior Women Doc Help In a message dated 10/7/2003 2:07:20 PM Central Daylight Time, a.reddecliffe@ntlworld.com writes: > I don't know about anywhere else, but it is starting in the UK next > Wednesday (October 15th @ 9pm, Discovery Channel) for 5 weeks. The episode > listed for next Wednesday is Joan of Arc. The British magazines are all > carrying listings for it and Lucy has been in some of the UK magazines. > Hope that helps. > Thanks. It would help more if all that were happening in the U.S. We're not used to this! - -- Ife (repressing the urge to throw a good ol' 'Merican tantrum) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:16:04 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] (WAS Xena's Wild Streak) Actually FATES, dammit! Oh CRAP! What the heck is this? How did the Fates discussion get stuck under "Xena's wild Streak" thread? Even more frustrating are the posts that come in as "Digest Number something" I NEVER find them until I've already said something somebody else has alread said. Huff. > > cande@sunlink.net writes: > > > I have to point out that in Fates Xena in that episode > > > is not the Xena of the series. It is a Xena who hasn't had to survive > > > crucifixion, limping across Asia, meeting Lao Ma, or Alti, or Odin. > > > This is a woman who actually has had a rather comfortable life > > > despite being a warrior. But it is the Xena who was smart, scheming, courageous, adaptable, persistent, vicious and ambitious WAY before she met Caesar. She's still the young woman who stood up to Cortez. She's still the same woman who suffered through the death of Lyceus. She'd already been thrown out of town by her mother and the villagers and was building her reputation as a warlord when Caesar met her. There's just no way to me that that wild, aggressive, scheming young pirate we met in Destiny grew up to become this simpering, weak, easily defeated dodo. And surely a life charged with all the events that lead to one becoming Empress of Rome as the consort of the renegade Julius Caesar was not a quiet, uneventful, easy journey that would lead one to just fold up and die when threatened. C'mon--subjugating Rome's colonies, defending them against Rome's enemies and defeating Rome's heirarchy to put herself and her upstart husband on the throne of Rome does not jive with a simple, comfortable, unchallenging life. This woman and her partner created themselves as an Emperor and Empress. They were not born into it and it was not handed to them. They fought, killed, schemed and battled for every inch of it. And yet, we're supposed to buy that despite having been a conqueror of nations and the Empress of Rome for many years, she's less defiant, less self-regarding and less threatening than the teen-aged petty pirate Xena who spit in Caesar's face when he crucified her the first time. She never gave up then, but we're supposed to believe that that girl, having created herself as the Empress of Rome would meekly surrender and allows Caesar and Alti, her sworn enemies, to crucify her without a fight? And in Fates she's apparently lost all her smarts too-she seems to believe that Gabrielle will be saved by her death because Caesar has promised her this, even though she has just seen Caesar go back on his word to give Gabrielle safe passage to her home by sending Alti after her to kill her. Instead of leaping off the cross, stealing a horse, grabbing up Gabrielle and riding off across the countryside, Xena just hangs there whimpering and whining and waiting to die. Good thing Gabrielle save her. (I believe that this is the reason Xena is so subdued when they get back to their world-she's MORTIFIED over her behavior back there!) In all probability Gabrielle probably had more of struggle with > > > life than Xena did. > > Gabrielle too is absolutely diminished in this ep. In the "real" world, our very first view of Gabrielle is seeing her defy Draco's men. And this is before she even noticed Xena hiding in the bushes in her unmentionables. Where did that feisty, wildly courageous beyond her abilities, self-sacrificing for others girl go? And where did her taste for adventure go? Fugate's Gabrielle is content to write, not live. (Unlike the Gabrielle of the Athens Academy ep.) I guess we're supposed to believe that without Xena the whirlwind in her life, she did just stay at home and never hit the road. Just settled for the quiet farm life. What a waste of a fine feisty girl. I think that Remember Nothing does a far better job of preserving these defiant, don't mess with me, sticking-up-for-herself characteristics of a Gabrielle who didn't need to meet Xena to be that way. As we see when she encourages a dog to lick a piece of bread before she serves it to her master. Both women in Fates were written as if they were totally different characters than the Real grrls, even though they lived through the Real grrl's formative years. And that is what makes no sense to me. If Fugate had written that Caesar had turned back time to a totally fresh start, rather than a continuation of the old world, then sure, they could very well be totally different women. But we've seen what they're like before they meet each other. And this sure ain't them characters growed up. Not to me anyway. > > You make a very interesting point. The irony of KT's dislike of this > > wimp-ering Xena is that she might not have been so taken with Gabs and the > > play, were it not for the unconscious connection to stoic Xena's life. > > Yes, this Xena was more innocent in her way, more "open," but I didn't get > > the impression she was especially "deep" (certainly not to the point of > > enjoying most artists of the day). She might've seen the play as > > enterntaining "fluff" and Gabs as a source of novelty. She was certainly the only one who seemed to enjoy the play. Hey--even her taste has suffered in Fates! > > > > Real-time X&G had several years to develop the bond between them. They'd > > been thru hell and high water together. Xena had learned the value of > > "true" love because of her past, as well as her relationship with Gabs. > > Initially, I didn't believe the "Gods, who is that woman!" looks between > > them, when they first see each other in Fates. The insta-soulmates thing > > didn't ring true, especially between the shallower versions we got in Bard > > By The Sea and Caesar's Empress. But when I think of it as based on what > > lay unknown beneath, it makes sense. The "connection" was between the real > > X&G, not the alternate ones we saw on the surface. D'uh. > > > > -- Ife > > Umm, I have to disagree. In this (WFC) timeline, these *were* the real > X&G, the others never existed. (It's quite unlike the 'alternate universe' > in Stranger in a Strange World where the inhabitants of the two universes > were conjugates of each other). Therefore, there were no other X&G's to > have any connection, and therefore the insta-soulmates thing must stand or > fall by itself. I think it falls. > > cr Yes, this is something that seems to get confused all the time. There IS no connection between these two women because no one lived their real life. As you said, it just never existed. People seem to think of this as an uber and it's not at all. There was never any bond between these women, they had never met before. There was no history for them to "feel" that pulled them together. I repeat the absolute worst thing about Fates is Xena giving up. The second worst is the idea that Ceasar created Xena. That he was the absolute catalyst for the woman she became. I will NEVER accept that view. Xena created herself. And re-created herself when she needed to. Getting nailed to Caesar's cross is not the defining characteristic of Xena to me. Getting away from getting nailed to Caesar's cross is much closer to the woman she was when she was 17 and the woman she should be in any future that includes that past. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 04:15:52 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] (WAS friend in Need) Xena as Jeeves In a message dated 10/7/2003 5:19:57 PM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Ife wrote: > > > >Again, I saw Xena as puppy-doggish with Alti. > > > Oh, I didn't see that at all. > > Alti never offered her friendship or respect. She's vicious and Xena knows > it. Xena knows that the minute Alti wants something from her, she will get > it anyway she can no matter what this does to Xena. Even to sucking her > blood if she wants to. > > Xena NEVER complimented Alti. She only took from Alti. She never wanted to > give her anything. Or serve her in any long-term way. She never scurried > around after her. She sat and stared at her as she absorbed Alti's > knowledge. > > At the campfire when Alti says, "I will make you the destroyer of > nations", Xena just smiles into the flames. It's all incoming with Alti. > Xena couldn't care less about the woman herself. She sees and wants > only her power. Not her respect, not her friendship. Once she > gets what she wants from Alti, she'll be hitting the road again. >> I absolutely agree that they didn't have the same relationship. Alti intrigued Xena from the moment Xena sensed her and saw a demonstration of her power. By "puppy dog," I mean the way Xena eagerly looks at Cyane and Alti during their spiritual duel, the campfire scene, when Alti takes her to the Land of the Dead to see Anokin (?), and when Xena finally delivers on the blood -- sort of like, "Ooo, a nice new bone. I want! I want! Pant, pant, pant." Like a puppy dog, Xena sure as heck knocks everything down in her path to get the new new bone Alti waves in her face -- including shoving her partner (Borias) to the side even more, threatening children, presumably killing someone when she needs a body for Alti's rituals, and slaughtering the Amazons who befriended her. Maybe she didn't like Alti and certainly it was for her own purposes, but it sure looked liked pandering to me. Stupid pandering, as it turns out, since Alti initially gets a lot more from the bargain than Xena. And Alti didn't even have to save her (twice), wash her hair, heal her legs, rope her in, or beat the crap out of her, yet still got better immediate results than Lao Ma. Yep, that Xena sure knew how to show and repay kindness, eh? > > I even saw a little of it with > >Caesar. In both cases, she exhibited childlike vulnerability that they > >played on -- e.g., romance and friendship. > > Caesar--Xena definitely at first felt superior with Caesar--remember how > she orders him to her bed chamber and then stalks him across the bed. >> Whatever superiority she felt didn't last long. I think she believed she had the upper hand, since he was, after all, her "prisoner." She believed she could seduce him, with both her body and her other ... skills. > She's girlish and happy when he comes back, yes. But she's still thinking > of herself as his equal--that they will rule the world together as > partners. Because they are both the same type of person. Unlike Lao Ma in > her eyes, who has a very different and totally new type of power and > skills. Xena can learn from Lao Ma. She doesn't expect to learn anything > much from Caesar. She saw a man of the world who could speak several languages, knew the political landscape of places she'd only heard about and had absolute confidence in his "plan" for using all that to gain power. She's bored with pirating, senses she could do better. She's mystified by his grasp and sense of a destiny that's only a blur to her. Why wouldn't she think she could learn from him? In her naive arrogance, she probably saw herself as an equal, but she's the one expecting they'll meet again to consummate something. He never promises her anything except that they'll simply meet again. > > > > > My only point is that Lao Ma required a > >kind of subservience that the others did not, which was fundamental to the > >knowledge (powers) she offered Xena. > > I don't think Lao Ma required it. Xena just gave it. Now I'm not talking > about the "Lose yourself, give up desiring" thing. That is totally > separate from being subservient to Lao Ma.>> I see the two as intertwined. She's already seen (and felt) what Lao Ma can do, before Lao Ma saves her. Not only that, Lao Ma seems to be able to see into Xena's future -- her destiny. Xena is vulnerable physically and emotionally. She grows to trust Lao Ma. Yes, as Lao Ma says, it would be easy for Xena to "serve" Lao Ma as a friend, master or teacher. But if Xena is to learn the powers she craves, Lao Ma requires her to suppress her will much more than that. To me, Lao Ma's powers were like another bone Xena wanted, inseperable from her attraction to Lao Ma in the first place. Lao Ma quite astutely used the stick and the bone (carrot) in winning Xena over. > The subservience Xena shows towards Lao Ma is genuine, unforced and real.> > > Agreed. Xena wanted what she thought she could get from Lao Ma, even though Xena wasn't exactly certain what that would be. > > > >It's interesting to me that Xena's "subservience" takes on a different > tone, > >once she has her physical abilities back and discovers there are indeed > >strings attached. > > > Exactly! This is what I said many posts and endless paragraphs ago. > (grin) I think that Xena's crippled legs and loss of mobility is > definitely a strong factor in how she relates to Lao Ma. >> Agreed again. Except I see it as an indication of a certain superficiality, in terms of the degree of Xena's subservience to Lao Ma for its own sake, out of "pure" affection. > Xena sees that this power can be owned and utilized even by people who are > not physically powerful. Once she masters it, it will work for her no > matter how badly crippled she is. > > This is a whole new concept for her. Being "peacefully powerful" is > unique in her experience. Lao Ma is the only person Xena has ever met who > has managed to do this. I think THAT'S where the subservience comes in. > Xena is genuinely in awe of this person. She also hasn't hung around > many gentle, soft-spoken, highly "civilized" people before. She's never > met a savage sophisticate before. AND she knows Lao Ma can take her out at > the drop of a hair pin. But doesn't. Xena is absolutely intrigued by this > person. And truly is humble before her. >> Wonderfully said. Again, my only point is that I don't see this awe in itself as different from her attraction to Caesar, Cyane, Alti, or even maybe Borias when she first met him. The difference is that Lao Ma's power is deceptively caring and selfless. Lao Ma has not initially asked Xena to join her or attack some community. She's merely told Xena that if she learns to conquer herself, she can tap into greater power. That's knowledge no one can take from Xena, which she could wield even with crippled legs. Unfortunately, once Xena has her physical abilities back, she goes right back to her focus on conquering others. > Xena does not need to be subservient to Lao Ma to be a student. She does > not need to be truly subservient to others to learn Lao Ma's Way. She only > needs to ACT as if she is. But with Lao Ma, it's not acting as if she was > subservient. She IS subservient towards her. This just manifests in a > natural way, beyond what Lao Ma is trying to teach her. >> What else was she a "student" of, besides Lao Ma's Way? How to put her hair in a bun? How to behave in "polite" society? No, it was to learn the deceptively "peaceful power" you describe above. To me, Xena was someone who immersed herself in whatever she wanted to learn. From that standpoint, it wasn't "acting." She could pretend to like the Amazons and most others she learned from, but she couldn't pretend whatever was required to blow up that vase with her mind. If she was going to learn that, she had to learn Lao May's Way, which required emptying (subjugating, conquering) one's self. But Lao Ma's Way didn't just give an advantage internally. Externally, you sometimes had to *appear* subservient (or at least deferential), just as Lao Ma did. > > Learning to control her own desires and will, yeah those are required for > the lessons. And Xena just can't do that. And so she fails in the use of > the powers. She learns them. But she can never reliably control them. >> Yes, although I do believe her attempts were genuine, both because she wanted and had to try. > > > >In the dice game, she treats Lao Ma as inconsequential -- someone who's > >chosen not to play the game, so no longer has anything to say about the > rules. > >Whatever genuine affection lay beneath her subservience to Lao Ma, it > certainly > >wasn't strong enough not to vanish completely, once it comes down to her > way > >vs. Lao Ma's. She reverts back to the Xena who sees nothing wrong with > killing > >the child of someone she's supposed to love, admire and obey. > > > > Exactly again. The subservience is gone once her legs are healed, and she > regains the power she used to have. She no longer needs this power. She no > longer needs to try to control it through lack of will and dampening of > desire. She is once again the full Xena, filled with a savage desire for > life in all it's rawness and physical joy. > > And Lao Ma learns that a wild creature is always wild. And will never be > fully house-broken. >> Yes, Xena did not believe in Lao Ma's Way in her bones. Her loyalty to Lao Ma was not connected in some fundamental way to Lao Ma herself. Once she no longer feels she needs Lao Ma's power, she doesn't need Lao Ma either. True, the need will surface much later. I'll agree it was "genuine" long term. Short-term, Xena treated it like a puppy dog that manages to break from its leash and run joyfully into traffic. > > > >I don't mean that Xena's subservience was consciously "false" in that way. > >I'm not sure she knew better. I do believe she was trying as best she knew > how > >-- both to learn and because she had a certain amount of trust in Lao Ma's > >motives. > > But Lao Ma wasn't exactly setting a "pure" example of subservience, > >devoid of mixed messages. Her lessons involved duplicity and political > gain. > >IOW, I don't see her as the role model who could show Xena a subservience > not > >based on ulterior purpose. > > > > > Xena didn't LEARN subservience from Lao Ma. She just offered it to her. >> Um, I know I've been arguing that Xena's surbservience to Lao Ma wasn't all that unique in motivaton. I do believe it was unique in its form, to Xena in its practice and meaning. Xena's behavior with Caesar, the Northern Amazons or Alti wasn't about truly subjugating herself. She would've regarded it as weak if she'd had to defer to them for too long, if there was nothing more to be gained. On one hand, Lao Ma's subservience was genuine, a way of life. On the other, it offered the promise of power despite *appearing* to be weak. "Deceptive" is a key word to me when describing Lao Ma. The fact that her subservience was both "real" and "illusory" is the lesson I think Xena learned and had trouble with. > > > > > > Yes and when it's false it's obvious. That's what I'm saying. Xena never > > indicated that acquiesing to Lao Ma's classes, tests, lectures, requests > > was ever somethign Xena only pretended to do. She DID them, > > truthfully, faithfully and willingly.>> > > > >Agreed. As she no doubt did with Alti or Cyane. Her thirst for knowledge > >was definitely genuine, bottomless and eclectic. That's different than > >acquiesing to someone for its own sake, simply because of her feelings for > the person. > > > Exactly. It was only Lao Ma that she acquiesed to--nobody else. >> I guess that's why Xena ran into traffic, rather than obey Lao Ma. Well, that's puppy love for ya. > > > > > > < > it's "easy to serve one you love". As Xena is doing. Why she was willing > > to do this for Lao Ma is my only question. I'm convinced she is > > subservient--but I'm not totally sure why. It's just one of those > > intriquing XWP puzzles. >> > > > >I keep telling you, but you won't listen. > > > > No--you're denying it. You don't see it so you can't possibly explain it. > (Though that WOULD be a very Zen exercise. This doesn't exist. This is why > it does.) Heh. >> I'm not denying it. I'm saying Xena had practical reasons, along with (and underlying) her emotional ones. I think you're looking for a deeper "something" -- e.g., love, respect? -- I just don't believe early Xena was capable of, at least not consciously or to the point of subjugating her self-interest. It's perfectly logical to me that she would behave as she did, particularly after she'd lost everything that mattered to her and been rescued by someone who seemed willing to give her that and more. > I don't see "avenging" so much as wallowing in sorrow over them. Only > focusing the loss, not the things they'd given her, as you say. This is > part of why she replies to Gabrielle's suggestion that "People say you > should examine your life" with, "They haven't lived mine." >> LOL. If her actions after Cortes, M'Lila's death, Akemi's suicide, etc. are any indication, her "wallowing in sorrow" meant a lot of bloody handkerchiefs. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:57:59 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 1 On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 18:16, KTL wrote: > mind-boggling snippage > > > > Actually, I've thought for a while that the only person I could > > > possibly imagine as Xena other than Lucy just MIGHT be Claudia Clark. > > > While not so classically beautiful as Lucy, she is extremely attractive > > > in a unique way. But best of all, she play Aeryn as a totally > > > believable warrior. Of course, she had an obvioius role model in Lucy > > > as Xena. > > > > I suggested that a while back (and got rubbished for it). > > Really? Where? Here? Here or some other list. *Gently* rubbished, I should add. ;) > > On reflection, > > > while I like Claudia Black, I don't think I would now suggest her as > > Xena. IMO, she doesn't have quite the intensity that LL could generate. > > I'm really not sure who does. > > Well for me, no one does. As I said, Claudia MIGHT have pulled it off > since she does such an excellent job in Farscape as a true warrior. And > had Claudia gotten the part of Xena, we'd never know what we were missing. I think Claudia would have pulled it off, but not as well as LL. And as you say, we'd never have known. > Thank the gods Rob fell for Lucy. And that she actually had > talent...grin. Umm, I think that happened in reverse order, didn't it? Lucy gets part, RT falls for Lucy? ;) > > She did indeed. Of course, while it was new for Lucy, TPTB did have > > experience in half-a-dozen previous eps, in writing tough women, and I'm > > sure that helped a lot. > > > > It wasn't entirly new for LL, though, she did have that part in Herc and > > the Amazon Women as Lysia (was it?) the Amazon war leader, to draw on. > > Yeah, but she was just a lieutenant there. That tiny Roma Downey was the > big Kahuna. OBVIOUSLY, since she got Herc. Lucy is just so YOUNG in that > movie. Hmmm, lemme see, Roma Downey gets Herc, the immortal hero, but LL gets Zeus, the King of the Gods himself. Guess which one I think carries more status ;) > > (Who, > > ironically, ended up with Zeus for a one-night stand. Hmmm. Pity TPTB > > never worked that one into the Xena backstory. It would have been - > > intriguing. ;) > > LOL! That WOULD have been prime. Not only for Herc, having him realize > that he and dad had both made love to that hot patootie, but how about > Ares also knowing that Xena had slept with Zeus. ESPECIALLY if Ares WAS > her father--which means of course that his daughter woulda been screwing > her own grandpa. Hooooeeeeeee. Wonder how THAT would have played with the > studio's focus groups. Heh. > > KT Ah well, Xena never did care much for convention, did she? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #300 **************************************