From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #298 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, October 7 2003 Volume 03 : Number 298 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] US Warrior Women Doc Help [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [cande@sunlink.net] [chakram-refugees] Re: Tarzan: Initial response [cande@sunlink.net] [chakram-refugees] OT: Write a novel in a month ["S. Wilson" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:17, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/6/03 4:43:58 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > << IMO, if they'd brought in Tara (and not Gabs) in > Episode 1, I reckon by now there would be legions of Tarafans exclaiming > over > the 'chemistry' between Shiri and LL and declaiming how nobody else could > possibly have taken her place. >> > > Don't know about the real-life actors, but the character of Tara was too > much like Xena Jr. Not enough tension between their different outlooks on > life or ways of operating. In her way, she was much more immitative and > less of her own person than Gabs. Maybe Gabs irritated me at first for > some of those very reasons, but she also grew on me because of tthat. Tara > might've been okay at first, but probably much more boring and "one note" > over the long haul -- unless they were prepared to make Xena more like a > crusty Lao Ma. > > -- Ife OK, I was being just a little provocative. ;) As for Tara vs Xena, I think there could have been *plenty* of tension between Tara and Xena's views of the world; Tara's views don't need to have been the same as Gabs' for that to happen. All depends how well the writers developed it, Tara didn't need to have been 'one note' any more than Gabs was (and if you recall, in the early eps, Gabs was very much 'one note'). Tara to start with was very naive - so was Gabs. Tara was 'obnoxious' (to quote Gabs), but Gabs was the 'irritating blonde'. A lot of similarities. But I'm just speculating here, of course. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:44:09 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:18, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/6/03 4:43:57 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > << If Caesar had altered the timeline so the 'other' world > never existed, how could those scenes have ever happened? Plot hole! > >> > > Or, you could redefine your concept of such timeline alterations,to include > forces (e.g., X&G's love) which can't be altered no matter how someone > tries to tamper with them. Much easier to skip over plot holes, once you > let go of all preconceptions, "sci-fi canon" or "logic." > > --Ife Well, that might work for a subtexter, of course. :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 22:14:53 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:11, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:09:01 -0800 (AKDT) > From: KTL > > > > > Xena ever wanted to be a benign ruler. She was originally motivated to > become a warrior for defense of her homeland. When that went bad, she was > "on the lam" and doing petty piracy to sustain herself when she met > Caesar.> > > Actually she wasn't on the "lam" in Destiny. Her motivation in Destiny was > still protecting Amphipolis (and stealing really nice dresses). We do know > she was ambitious and wanted to rule with Xena. This doesn't mean she > couldn't be a good ruler or even a benign ruler. There is no indication in > Destiny that this Xena was especially cruel or even evil until her > betrayal. Yeah. It's *all Caesar's fault*. Zeus, I love to hate that guy. ;) > she was like that, so meeting Xena had not given her that blazing courage. > Where did it go? Why is she so...ineffective and moony?> > > Actually I don't find her all that ineffective. There isn't a whole lot > she can do to save Xena but she does save the world in the end. Perhaps > that's what people dislike about the episode is that Gabrielle saves the > world while Xena hangs on the cross. The Gabrielle in the alternative > world is not some pathetic loser. She is rich and successful. She has > managed to get herself out of Potadiea and make a name for herself. This > Gabrielle is perhaps even more independent than the "real" Gabrielle. Well, speaking for me, I don't mind Gabs blowing up the world. I don't even mind Xena getting crucified, too much. It's the instant-luuurve thing that KF gives such prominence to that loses me. > Of course the point is that this is a WFC is a romantic love story and it > has to be viewed from that point of view. If you don't like that genre > then this isn't the episode for you. You said it. :) cr > ... > horrific. Xena gets shot with arrows, gets dragged behind a horse, > (that's three times now-does she get a charm? Can't you just see a little > horsie and dragee on her charm bracelet?) and is crucified--by the order > of her spouse.> > > Jeeze how cum we always get upset when Xena gets beat up. We have never > complained when Xena is shooting people full of arrows or loping their > heads off or dragging them behind Argo. But if Xena gets all bloody we > just can't stand it. Huh? I can't answer for lfe, but I don't get upset when Xena gets beat up. Y'know, I don't mind the battle in FIN or the fight in Between the Lines, at all. Great stuff. Or the crucifixions in Destiny or Ides. I cringe a bit in The Way, simply 'cos it's a bit horrific, but I don't object to it. I don't care for the fight in Crusader, not because of any 'ethical' objections so to speak, but simply 'cos I don't believe a little girl like Najara could lay a finger on Xena. I hate Gurkhan, and to a lesser extent dislike Xena *allowing* herself to be crucified in WFC, because it shows Xena as helpless. That, I don't like at all. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 08:56:19 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide - -----Original Message----- From: cr Huh? I can't answer for lfe, but I don't get upset when Xena gets beat up. Y'know, I don't mind the battle in FIN or the fight in Between the Lines, at all. Great stuff. Or the crucifixions in Destiny or Ides. I cringe a bit in The Way, simply 'cos it's a bit horrific, but I don't object to it. I don't care for the fight in Crusader, not because of any 'ethical' objections so to speak, but simply 'cos I don't believe a little girl like Najara could lay a finger on Xena. I hate Gurkhan, and to a lesser extent dislike Xena *allowing* herself to be crucified in WFC, because it shows Xena as helpless. That, I don't like at all. Actually I don't think Xena's crucifixtion shows she is helpless. In the jail scene Xena says to Gabrielle that everything that happened in the real world happened precisely as it should. I think Xena decides that her crucifixtion is actually necessary. It is what happened in the "real" world and she now going to go through it with some idea that this is the path to straightening things out. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:09:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Tarzan: Initial response From: Lee Daley Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Tarzan: Initial response At 10:21 PM 10/5/2003 -0500, you wrote: I liked the show a bit more - I thought Fimmel wasn't awful and rather toouching. Yet having said that his character doesn't bring much to the table - he is simply running away or chasing Jane. You will need the other characters to up the tension and drama. The conflict between the aunt and uncle shold do that. Yes she does look good, doesn't she. Much younger. Hey Lucy's character is a newspaper publisher maybe she needs a crack reporter. Then we can have the adventures of the publisher and the girl reporter (Tarzan will settle down with Jane in Centeral Park and we can concentrate on this new plotline). CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= - ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #297 ************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:58:54 -0500 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: Write a novel in a month I know we have lots of budding authors of all kinds on this list, and others among us that might think this fun and educational, so I thought I'd pass it on. > Every November a bunch of crazy people get together and write 50,000 word > novels in a month just for the fun of it. The point of it is to write > quantity, not quality. It is a great opportunity for those budding authors > itching for an excuse to get started writing. I figured there are lots of > creative types hanging out here so I thought I'd let you in on it. Read >the > FAQ at http://www.nanowrimo.org/ . ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:11:45 -0400 From: "mirrordrum" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Tarzan: Initial response > wasn't such a bad idea, now if they could find a way to get Renee in > there............................> > > Hey Lucy's character is a newspaper publisher maybe she needs a crack reporter. Then we can have the adventures of the publisher and the girl reporter (Tarzan will settle down with Jane in Centeral Park and we can concentrate on this new plotline). > > CherylA oh my word, cheryl, you've gone uber with a vengeance. i wonder how many times *that* theme has been done. and i do love your idea for T&J. you have a definite flair for getting rid of the chaff. must confess i didn't watch the pilot. i knew lucy wasn't in it and i had just watched the US lose the world cup and was trying to decide whether i wanted sweden to win because i really like two of their players and they rejected the euro, which i thought gutsy, or canada to win b/c lucy attended drama school there and the first 3 seasons of the x-files were filmed there. well that's a no-brainer. i was for canada. i lost again. bugger. is this now going to become a tarxena list and then, when lucy's new show gets off the ground, a "tarxena and the new show" list? or what? toodles, md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:11:44 -0700 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: [Flawless] US Warrior Women Doc Help >In a message dated 10/7/03 1:14:56 AM, IfeRae@aol.com writes: > >>I've searched in vain through TVGuide, Zap2it, The Discovery Channel website, >>and other online resources to find listings for the Warrior Women >>Documentary. According to Creation, the show runs on Wednesdays from Oct. >>15 - Nov. 12. >> Anybody in the Chicago-area (or U.S.) find dates, times and broadcast >>station? Is there some other title for the documentary that I should be >>using? >>Thanks! > >I believe those Creation dates are for the UK airings. Maybe Discovery USA is >waiting to air the show until ratings "sweeps" in November? (in which case >they'll probably schedule it for Sunday nights, at, say, 9:00 pm EST ). > >--Sekhmet Correct, those are the UK dates. Discovery US hasn't bought the series yet. P'rhaps they have an email addy where we could make gentle inquiries? Sharon ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:27:50 -0400 From: "mirrordrum" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: [Flawless] US Warrior Women Doc Help - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 1:11 PM Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: [Flawless] US Warrior Women Doc Help > >I believe those Creation dates are for the UK airings. Maybe Discovery USA is > >waiting to air the show until ratings "sweeps" in November? (in which case > >they'll probably schedule it for Sunday nights, at, say, 9:00 pm EST ). > > > >--Sekhmet > > > Correct, those are the UK dates. Discovery US hasn't bought the series > yet. P'rhaps they have an email addy where we could make gentle inquiries? > > Sharon oh jeez, you been reading miss manners, haven't you. good idea though. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:50:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Meredith Tarr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Tarzan: Initial response Hi, md wondered: > is this now going to become a tarxena list and then, > when lucy's new show > gets off the ground, a "tarxena and the new show" > list? or what? I don't have a problem with that. In my view what both Lucy and Renee do with their professional lives going forward may be well worth discussion, so why not do it here? Plus there's only so many times poor Cheryl can review the same X:WP episodes ... ;) If others have an alternate opinion, please let me know. I do think the wishes of the majority should be honored. Meredith meth@smoe.org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 20:09:55 +0100 From: "a.reddecliffe" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] US Warrior Women Doc Help I don't know about anywhere else, but it is starting in the UK next Wednesday (October 15th @ 9pm, Discovery Channel) for 5 weeks. The episode listed for next Wednesday is Joan of Arc. The British magazines are all carrying listings for it and Lucy has been in some of the UK magazines. Hope that helps. Ann > I've searched in vain through TVGuide, Zap2it, The Discovery Channel website, > and other online resources to find listings for the Warrior Women > Documentary. According to Creation, the show runs on Wednesdays from Oct. 15 - Nov. 12. > Anybody in the Chicago-area (or U.S.) find dates, times and broadcast > station? Is there some more specific title for the documentary that I should be > using? Thanks! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:46:13 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] (Was Friend In Need) Gabrielle: Jackess of all trades I'm breaking this reply in two--it's just too darn big Snip snip KT wrote: > << I think at the beginning she was using Xena the same as so many people had > for her own purposes. And yeah, she always thought she was wiser than Xena > was in terms of people and their motivations. Which of course only showed > how naive she was and how she had absolutely no idea of the life that Xena > had led. >> Ife answered > > I guess I'm reacting to "use" in the negative or impersonal sense I'm getting > from what you say. As to Gabrielle, I just don't see her desire to travel > with Xena as nearly on par with what Caesar, Alti, Lao Ma, etc. had in mind. > Initially, all she wanted to do was escape Poteidaia, to do what Xena did, to > learn from Xena. I don't see that she needed Xena as an instrument for some > plot or grand plan. True. But this is just a matter of degree. I would still argue that it is not right to say that Gabrielle never used Xena. At first she couldn't care less about Xena in any specific way. A long time ago I wrote that I felt that Xena loved specifice individuals while Gabrielle loved "humanity" in a general sense. Again, it's the difference between an idealistic kid and a person with a fascinating past. You know, I just took a quick peek at season one's list of eps. I'm honestly surprised to see how many friends, family members, foes and ex-fiances of Xena's figured in season one. We've got Xena with her mother, Draco, Marcus, Ares, Hercules, Iolaus, The Amazons, Flora, Helen, Petracles, Thersites, wandering nomads who once took her in, Salmoneous and brother-for-one-week Toris. That's a LOT of personal connections going on. And then of course, season 2 starts with intoducing Solon. She soon learns that Xena feels alone and could "use" > (needed) a friend, someone who would hopefully support Xena in her quest to do good. But at first she's just using her presence and her patience as a ticket out of Poteidea. > Xena expected that from Gabs, and that's what the Warrior got, whether it > was convenient at the time or not. > > Sometimes Gabs' naivete enabled her to see potential in people or situations > that Xena didn't, which Xena's experience in fact blinded her to. Xena > trusted Gabs' unblemished (and usually unselfish) perspective. And Gabs was > sometimes right -- as she was with Petracles, the Horde Xena was right about how to handle the Horde at that moment. Gabrielle can pass all the water she wants to (I swear, she ALWAYS channelled Gunga Din) but if Xena hadn't fought the head horde to the death, they all would have died that day. Xena of course acknowledged and praised Gabrielle's stubborn insistance that the Horde is just another variation of human. Gabrielle of course, never thanks Xena for saving her and everyone else yet again. and even Xena herself (as > when she whacked Xena with the pitchfork). I don't think either the series or > Xena herself could've been as multidimensional without having the perspective of > someone who believed there was a world beyond the violent one Xena lived in. > No, all kidding aside, the archetype character that Renee played was essential to the series. Many stories feature a sidekick to make the hero the hero by comparison. And to have an entry for "us" to enter into the hero's world. The sidekick's service as an apprentice to the hero is always a way to view the hero, to get inside their head. To see them as teacher, to have them explain their life and their life view. Hopefully by the things they do rather than the things they say which always makes for better storytelling. The sidekick, along with us, watches what they do and thus learns what makes a hero. The sidekick also provides a lot of humor in a story, with their incompetence leading to trouble and their attempts to learn skills often ending in disaster at first. Now, Tapert and Stewart being the creative folks that they are, with Gabrielle, they quickly moved away from the stereotype of the sidekick. I firmly believe that one reason for this was that this was new ground. The female hero is rare. Therefore a sidekick for a female hero is also a very rare character. (Note: Most contemporary stories about women feature a friend who can be considered a sidekick in a way. Like Ethel to Lucy. But they are more equals in terms of aptitudes and abilities than the hero and sidekick duo are. Certainly the protaganist of I Love Lucy was Lucy and the story focused on her and her needs and desires. But Ethel was not learning about life from Lucy, she was just Lucy's bud and therefore often involved in Lucy's escapades as an equal and willing accomplice.) Gabrielle also quickly became Xena's friend. A role she immediately claimed, even though Xena was very askance at this at first. We don't see Frodo claiming to be a friend of Gandalf's minutes after meeting him. But women characters have close friends, usually best friends, not just comrades in arms. And Gabrielle became Xena's best friend in the Cagney and Lacy way of sharing their thoughts and emotions along with their jobs. And in sharing great affection and love for each other and in taking care of each other against an often antagonistic world. (Like Herc and Iolaus do also.) Gabrielle embodied not only the sidekick and the best friend, but the archetype "Girlfriend" character also. The Girlfriend embraces the civilized world. She tries to stop the hero from committing violence. She stands for the normal, everyday, orderly life of peace and comfort. She often begs the hero to stop being a hero, to stop fighting and come sit by her side at home. Where they will draw the curtains on that evil world outside and the nasty people in it. This is obviously the role Gabrielle epitomized in the Price. "Leave them alone and they'll leave us alone." Uh-huh. As we've said Gabrielle doesn't want to settle down. BUT at the beginning of the series she doesn't want to solve problems through violence and force either. And therefore plays the Girlfriend role. This is part of why Gabrielle's character keeps changing--she has conflicting "duties" within the series. As in many stories, by the end of the hero's journey, the sidekick comes to be a hero themselves, transformed by also living the journey of the hero they accompanied, also facing and dealing with some of the challenges that the hero overcame. And having to overcome their own demons and challenges also. Frodo is a great example of this. One unique thing that Tapert did was to have the hero see the sidekick as a teacher and as someone to emulate. THAT is highly unusual--truly a fresh and very creative twist upon the usual ways these characters interact. In that way he stood the genre totally on its head. And took Xena's story way beyond the constraints of a formulaic genre. Anyway, yes, characters like Gabrielle in many of her manifestations are essential to a classic hero's story. Tapert and his writers, by combining a number of archetypes in one person, created a very complex character. And a lot of confusion in fandom about her role and her "real" relationship with Xena. Which is certainly part of the plurality of the relationships--there WERE many relationships between these characters. Fans responded to and related to all of them. Though some fans deny some of them, they all exist. And are all given credence in the show, though not usually all at the same time. Different eps showcase different relationships. Whew--no WONDER we're so splintered... > As to Xena, "used" suggests to me that Xena was herself naive or helpless to > the point where she was forced to do something she didn't have a hand in > making possible. Oh no, that's not the way I mean it. She was often compliant with "being used" in order to achieve her own agenda. Mutual usage in other words. Even as young Xena, she did what she wanted. She put herself in > the position to be used for others' purposes because of her own curiosity, > arrogance, rage and/or greed. Yup. Maybe her later sense of honor made her respond to > Gabrielle's "I saved your life," but I didn't get the impression that's why > she let Gabrielle travel with her. I think that was a large part of it. Lucy played it that way--when Gabrille insists that she could get up on "the horse" behind Xena, Xena just stares at her then gives this impatient shake of the head and then after a moment's consideration, hauls lil' bubble butt up behind her. Lil' bubble butt then gives Xena's heinie a friendly little squeeze as she settles herself and off they go, with Xena perhaps thinking, "Hey, this might not be so bad after all." I think Xena was impressed with Gabrielle's courage and general fiestiness. Gabrielle stood up to a whole band of warlords. Then she stood up to her parents and her fiance. Then she stood up to a mob of furious Amphipopolitans. Then she stood up to Xena herself. Prettyyyyyy feisty. AND she literally ran away from home, seeing a chance for adventure and to better herself. And THEN she tracks Xena down and attaches herself to her like a burr to a saddle yet again at the end of the ep. That all took gumption and initiative. I think Xena respected that. And also, young sidekicks are often refused at first. They're seen as bothersome pests, kids who are going to hinder the mission. They often have to "prove" they can hold their own in at least a limited way before they're allowed to come along on the journey. Which Gabrielle did. And again, we've discussed in the past how Xena saw herself in Gabrielle that day. And she probably figured, "Hell, how can it hurt." If she only knew... KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 18:11:46 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak In a message dated 10/7/03 4:41:08 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: << > Or, you could redefine your concept of such timeline alterations,to include > forces (e.g., X&G's love) which can't be altered no matter how someone > tries to tamper with them. Much easier to skip over plot holes, once you > let go of all preconceptions, "sci-fi canon" or "logic." > > --Ife Well, that might work for a subtexter, of course. :) >> Okay, then substitute Xena's honor and need to fulfill her destiny as a hero. How's that work for ya as something unalterable by human or god? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 18:11:44 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Tarzan: Initial response In a message dated 10/7/03 12:51:01 PM Central Daylight Time, meredith_tarr@yahoo.com writes: << In my view what both Lucy and Renee do with their professional lives going forward may be well worth discussion, so why not do it here? >> Okay, that brings up another issue. Originally, this was more of a "private," "invitation only" list, right? I certainly was careful not to say anything about it, before contacting Meredith. I suspect quite a few of us are also on Flawless, which spawned a Tarzan list. Does it matter anymore if others know about C-R? What about cross-posting with the other two lists? As to Meredith's question, C-R is the only place I can satisfy my obsession for continuing to discuss XWP eps, as well as ideas remotely connected to the series. As we move on to other discussions (e.g., LL&ROC's careers, Warrior Women, movies, maybe even Tarzan), I'm hoping folks will continue indulging those of us who keep beating what refuses to be a dead horse. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:18:22 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] (WAS friend in Need) Xena as Jeeves KT wrote: > Xena always did whatever it took to learn what she wanted. But only > with Lao Ma did she make herself a servant along with being a student. snip > > Totally different attitude towards Lao Ma than torwards anybody else. >. Ife wrote: > > Again, I saw Xena as puppy-doggish with Alti. Oh, I didn't see that at all. Alti never offered her friendship or respect. She's vicious and Xena knows it. Xena knows that the minute Alti wants something from her, she will get it anyway she can no matter what this does to Xena. Even to sucking her blood if she wants to. Xena NEVER complimented Alti. She only took from Alti. She never wanted to give her anything. Or serve her in any long-term way. She never scurried around after her. She sat and stared at her as she absorbed Alti's knowledge. At the campfire when Alti says, "I will make you the destroyer of nations", Xena just smiles into the flames. It's all incoming with Alti. Xena couldn't care less about the woman herself. She sees and wants only her power. Not her respect, not her friendship. Once she gets what she wants from Alti, she'll be hitting the road again. I even saw a little of it with > Caesar. In both cases, she exhibited childlike vulnerability that they > played on -- e.g., romance and friendship. Caesar--Xena definitely at first felt superior with Caesar--remember how she orders him to her bed chamber and then stalks him across the bed. Then she comes to love him or at least his dreams and his vision of himself. (I HATE to think she actually loved that supercilious worm.) Yeah, he makes her believe she's going to be happy by his side as they rampage off to rule the world. His sheer audacity attracts her tremendously. But I saw her seeing him more as an equal. Not a mentor, not a teacher--hell, she'd kidnapped him and beat off his forces. So she considers herself a better fighter than he is. She's after Caesar because he's an ambitious person. And yeah, she obviously thinks he's a hottie too. She's girlish and happy when he comes back, yes. But she's still thinking of herself as his equal--that they will rule the world together as partners. Because they are both the same type of person. Unlike Lao Ma in her eyes, who has a very different and totally new type of power and skills. Xena can learn from Lao Ma. She doesn't expect to learn anything much from Caesar. My only point is that Lao Ma required a > kind of subservience that the others did not, which was fundamental to the > knowledge (powers) she offered Xena. I don't think Lao Ma required it. Xena just gave it. Now I'm not talking about the "Lose yourself, give up desiring" thing. That is totally separate from being subservient to Lao Ma. The subservience Xena gives to Ming Tzu is false and given only to try to absorb and control the will that would make Xena want to kill him on sight. It's a training exercise. The subservience Xena shows towards Lao Ma is genuine, unforced and real. > It's interesting to me that Xena's "subservience" takes on a different tone, > once she has her physical abilities back and discovers there are indeed > strings attached. Exactly! This is what I said many posts and endless paragraphs ago. (grin) I think that Xena's crippled legs and loss of mobility is definitely a strong factor in how she relates to Lao Ma. Prior to having her legs broken, all of Xena's taking and using power resided in her own brawn and physical prowess. When she was a pirate, she had no great strategies and schemes, no ambitions other than to "Sack that town, steal all their goods, take hostages for ransom and burn everything so they're too scared and devastated to attack my home town in revenge". When Borias talks about making alliances, she derides this and thinks the only persuasion one needs is to have a bigger sword and to wield it better than the other guy. Her damaged body and diminished ability HAS to scare the tartarus out of her. I'm sure it galls her too--things like Borias being able to tip her off her horse so easily. If Xena had her good gripping legs, NOTHING would have gotten her off either the horse OR Borias. Sure, she works around her disability. When she decides to kidnap Ming T'ien, she rides her horse right into the house, since stealth and sneaking around are much harder for a person who needs a cane to walk upright. But she can't always be on a horse. Look what happens in the yurt when she threatens Lao Ma with two knives. Lao Ma turns her back on Xena (SUCH contempt!) and stomps down on a piece of burning wood to arc it unerringly towards Xena's face. Xena swings her upper body away to dodge it. Xena then throws her knives at Lao Ma's back. Lao Ma calmly picks up her hairbrush and holds it behind her head to transect their arc. She spins around and uses the hairbrush to launch the knives back at Xena Xena leaps to the side to avoid them and stumbles, crashing to the floor. In the fall, she hurts her bad legs. She clutches her knee as she tries to get up, hopping on one leg in pain, desperate to gain her balance. The minute she's upright, she hurls herself at Lao Ma, who easily steps aside and lets Xena barrel past her. Xena falls again and scrabbles on the floor like an animal as she tried to stand up. She crawls on all fours away from Lao Ma, then holds and supports her knee as she struggles to stand upright again on her crippled legs. Lao Ma calmly watches her. Xena being Xena of course doesn't give up (no matter what Katherine Fugate might believe) and once again launches herself at Lao Ma. Lao Ma, realizing that Xena isn't going to give up, launches her bolt o' light and blows Xena right throw the wall as if she had been launched from a cannon. Lao Ma follows her outside, uses her hairpin to slice through the water skin and wake the unconscious Xena up. And then kneels down by Xena's side and begins her lessons. And Lucy shows the wheels spinning in Xena's head as she takes in what just happened to her and what power this small, "weak" woman posesses. Xena sees that this power can be owned and utilized even by people who are not physically powerful. Once she masters it, it will work for her no matter how badly crippled she is. This is a whole new concept for her. Being "peacefully powerful" is unique in her experience. Lao Ma is the only person Xena has ever met who has managed to do this. I think THAT'S where the subservience comes in. Xena is genuinely in awe of this person. She also hasn't hung around many gentle, soft-spoken, highly "civilized" people before. She's never met a savage sophisticate before. AND she knows Lao Ma can take her out at the drop of a hair pin. But doesn't. Xena is absolutely intrigued by this person. And truly is humble before her. First, she must "play nice" with Borias. Then she learns she's > to be Lao Ma's Warrior Princess, expected to form an alliance with the man who > hunted her like the dogs he set upon her. Prior to that, her subservience > served her own needs, regardless of her affection for Lao Ma. It had an eager or > rebellious quality dependant on how "right" it seemed to her own "studies." I don't see that at all. I don't see the subservience I'm seeing as being part of the lessons. Xena does not need to be subservient to Lao Ma to be a student. She does not need to be truly subservient to others to learn Lao Ma's Way. She only needs to ACT as if she is. But with Lao Ma, it's not acting as if she was subservient. She IS subservient towards her. This just manifests in a natural way, beyond what Lao Ma is trying to teach her. Learning to control her own desires and will, yeah those are required for the lessons. And Xena just can't do that. And so she fails in the use of the powers. She learns them. But she can never reliably control them. > In the dice game, she treats Lao Ma as inconsequential -- someone who's > chosen not to play the game, so no longer has anything to say about the rules. > Whatever genuine affection lay beneath her subservience to Lao Ma, it certainly > wasn't strong enough not to vanish completely, once it comes down to her way > vs. Lao Ma's. She reverts back to the Xena who sees nothing wrong with killing > the child of someone she's supposed to love, admire and obey. > Exactly again. The subservience is gone once her legs are healed, and she regains the power she used to have. She no longer needs this power. She no longer needs to try to control it through lack of will and dampening of desire. She is once again the full Xena, filled with a savage desire for life in all it's rawness and physical joy. And Lao Ma learns that a wild creature is always wild. And will never be fully house-broken. > I don't mean that Xena's subservience was consciously "false" in that way. > I'm not sure she knew better. I do believe she was trying as best she knew how > -- both to learn and because she had a certain amount of trust in Lao Ma's > motives. > But Lao Ma wasn't exactly setting a "pure" example of subservience, > devoid of mixed messages. Her lessons involved duplicity and political gain. > IOW, I don't see her as the role model who could show Xena a subservience not > based on ulterior purpose. > Xena didn't LEARN subservience from Lao Ma. She just offered it to her. > > Yes and when it's false it's obvious. That's what I'm saying. Xena never > indicated that acquiesing to Lao Ma's classes, tests, lectures, requests > was ever somethign Xena only pretended to do. She DID them, > truthfully, faithfully and willingly.>> > > Agreed. As she no doubt did with Alti or Cyane. Her thirst for knowledge > was definitely genuine, bottomless and eclectic. That's different than > acquiesing to someone for its own sake, simply because of her feelings for the person. Exactly. It was only Lao Ma that she acquiesed to--nobody else. > > << Lao Ma talks about how easy it is for Xena to want to serve her. Because > it's "easy to serve one you love". As Xena is doing. Why she was willing > to do this for Lao Ma is my only question. I'm convinced she is > subservient--but I'm not totally sure why. It's just one of those > intriquing XWP puzzles. >> > > I keep telling you, but you won't listen. > No--you're denying it. You don't see it so you can't possibly explain it. (Though that WOULD be a very Zen exercise. This doesn't exist. This is why it does.) Heh. BUT you have helped me to get closer to some reasons why it occured. And I thank you for that. > > I agree on that. But she still mourns those people because she loved them. > > I remember feeling really happy for Xena in Ares Farm. Because for once, > she remembers a past when she was happy, safe, nurtured and loved, when > she was a young girl in her grandparent's house. And > it's all good--she doesn't suddenly say, "And then I killed them all." > > It was a very poignant moment, very lovely. Sniffle.>> > > Oh, absolutely. For me, a lot of the poignancy comes from her not > appreciating the chances she had in her past -- e.g., Lyceus' admiration, Cyane's > invitation to join with the Amazons, M'Lila's rescue and sacrifice, Borias' genuine > love for her, Akemi's friendship, Lao Ma's recognition of her potential for > greatness in a positive way. If Xena mourned, it was not in celebration of what > those people represented or their positive feelings for her. It was by > avenging what she believed she'd lost. I don't see "avenging" so much as wallowing in sorrow over them. Only focusing the loss, not the things they'd given her, as you say. This is part of why she replies to Gabrielle's suggestion that "People say you should examine your life" with, "They haven't lived mine." KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #298 **************************************