From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest)
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Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #297
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chakram-refugees-digest    Tuesday, October 7 2003    Volume 03 : Number 297



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<When Fates Collide>> (fwd)  [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Comedy of Eros                      [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<When Fates Collide>> (fwd)        [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak              [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<When Fates Collide>> (fwd)        [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak              [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] The problem with cr's messages...  [cr <cr@orcon.ne]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<When Fates Collide>> (fwd)  [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak        [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak        [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak              [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<When Fates Collide>> (fwd)        [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak              [IfeRae@aol.com]
  [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide  ["Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.n]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1   [KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Tarzan: Initial response  [Lee Daley <leedaley@opto]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 04:21:57 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<When Fates Collide>> (fwd)

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 18:35, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/4/2003 3:51:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
>
> fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes:
> > Spoiler space for When Fates Collide
> >
> >
> > B
> > A
> > N
> > G
> > !
> > C
> > R
> > A
> > S
> > H
> > !
> > B
> > O
> > O
> > M
> > !
> > Y
> > U
> > C
> > K
> > !
> >
> > SPOILERS FOR When Fates Collide, Ides of March, Destiny, Sacrifice II
> >
> > Includes mentions of many eps from all seasons INCLUDING season six,
>
> [Much apologetic snipping]

[Much unapologetic snipping to placate der ListMistress   ;)  ]

> > Alti had never realized her powers before?  She had never grabbed
> > somebody (all of whom presumably existed in both worlds as they did in
> > the Sovereign shadow world on Herc) and hit upon any "real" memories
> > before? >>
>
> I have to agree with you there.  She provided a convenient way to stir up
> old memories, but otherwise seemed weirdly out of place.  As you say, the
> whole changing fates thing was full of holes.  However, once I accepted it
> for what it was (which wasn't unusual for me to have to do), I decided Alti
> was a fairly clever choice for a plot device.

I have to agree with lfe, Alti turning up was more than a bit incongruous.    
Not impossible by any means, and I suppose one could rationalise it by 
producing a moderately plausible reason for her presence - Alti was always 
after power, and Rome was the power centre of the world at that time - still, 
it seems rather improbable.    Much more so than in Clones.    OTOH, I enjoy 
Alti's presence on screen so much, I wasn't going to quibble.   

> > Would Gabrielle really have torched that loom without agonizing over
> > changing everything that had happened for all the other people in it?  If
> > all the people exist in both worlds, for some of them, that world has to
> > be a BETTER place.  A place where perhaps THEY are not slaves or widows
> > or murderers or dead.  Indeed, how did Gabrielle know that she wasn't
> > condemning all of them to total oblivion for her own selfish purposes?>>

(snip)

> I'm not sure what Gabrielle thought would happen when she destroyed the
> loom, except possibly the ending of a world with less rhyme, reason or
> authenticity than it was supposed to have.  I saw a woman enraged by
> learning about and losing love in the span of a few hours, a writer whose
> words up until then had been empty and the life that produced them a lie, a
> bard-warrior who couldn't prevent a huge injustice to the world, especially
> to the one person willing to die for what Gabrielle had written about.

I found it credible too  (though, given my usual stance on Gabrielle's 
thought processes, that's hardly a recommendation  ;)     

But yeah, Gabs looked unsettled enough to do just what she did.

> Retrospectively, I realize that the X&G we saw were in fact living
> the lives they may have fantasized, but there was no depth to it, no life
> -- no blood and guts. Gabrielle didn't know the meaning of her own words. 
> Xena "played" house with someone she probably loved less than her horse. 
> Why wouldn't X&G's "instant" attraction to each other and love have the
> superficiality of people who have just met, who have to profess what all
> their experiences together allowed "real" X& G to convey in a glance?

But, why was it there at all?   Oh yeah, I know, as a little pressie for the 
mushier subtexters, which is essentially what this ep was.    

OK, I'll admit, I liked quite a lot of it (given that my subtext filtering 
was on emergency override power :)   because this type of ep - an 
alternate-realities ep - with some good villains in it (Alti, Caesar), and 
some nice 'in' references - appeals to me.     

> > << It's a PURE schmaltzy bad fanfic take.  I don't
> > think Fugate writes fanfic and I believe I read in the official mag that
> > she's not online or wasn't on line when she was tapped to write this one.
> > I think she has a good future in fanfic. >>
>
> I'm thinking this was more "anti" schmaltz, in terms of how it was shown as
> originating falsely, blown to kingdom come, and dissed by "our" X&G
> gratefully riding off into their "real" world.  <g>

Umm, to say that, is a bit like saying that Married with Fishsticks was a 
satire on sitcoms.     There's a risk with satire, which is that part of the 
audience will take it seriously and won't 'get' it.    Having said which, I 
think KF was entirely serious in her writing.

> > After about 20 minute or so, I could barely stand to continue to watch
> > it, it was so banal and boring.  The moonlit yearning glances on the
> > balcony was hysterically overwrought and funny and what was up with the
> > playing peek-a-boo in the shadows?  Oh man! >
>
> I watch it now as more of a ....  I can't think of the right word.  Maybe
> I'll stay with "homage."  I don't think it's a parody exactly.  It's like
> Fugate's painting stock scenes from a romance novel, but trying to do it in
> a way that's respectful to the characters and authentic in terms of how
> they might've been wthout their "real" experiences.  

I've just figured out why it never struck me that way.... which is probably 
simply because I've never read a romantic novel.  ;)      Never have, never 
will.    I think the nearest I ever got to it was Lady Chatterley's Lover.   
And only about eleven pages of that   <vbeg>     

> Lord knows I'm not trying to change your mind about "Fates."  (As if.)  I
> certainly wouldn't have voted for a whole ep focused on love, but if we had
> to have one, I'm liking that Fugate did it this way.  The other eps where
> they stuck in "mush" didn't add anything and made me gnash my teeth even
> more.  "Fates" started me on "mush," stood "mush" on its head,  turned it
> inside out, gradually gave it more texture and subtance, and made it more
> palatable to me by reminding me of the missing ingredients.  I don't know
> if Fugate intended all that, or if this is another example of my ability to
> rationalize almost anything. More and more, I'm thinking it could be
> Fugate.

No, it's your rationalizing ability, without a doubt      :)

cr
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 01:45:48 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Comedy of Eros

In a message dated 10/5/2003 4:26:34 PM Central Daylight Time, 
cande@sunlink.net writes:

> does a great job of combining
> a girlish infatuation with feral fighting ability.  She probably the only
> woman in the world who could flirt while sword fighting.  

Oh, yes, I just love that opening scene with Draco, as well as the arm 
wrestling.  This is one of those comedies I could watch a million times.

- -- Ife
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 01:45:45 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<When Fates Collide>> (fwd)

In a message dated 10/5/2003 11:37:22 PM Central Daylight Time, 
cr@orcon.net.nz writes:

> >I'm thinking this was more "anti" schmaltz, in terms of how it was shown 
> as
> >originating falsely, blown to kingdom come, and dissed by "our" X&G
> >gratefully riding off into their "real" world.  <g>
> 
> Umm, to say that, is a bit like saying that Married with Fishsticks was a 
> satire on sitcoms.    There's a risk with satire, which is that part of the 
> audience will take it seriously and won't 'get' it.   Having said which, I 
> think KF was entirely serious in her writing.
> 
> 

Yes, that's why I said I believe she treated the characters respectfully, 
which also meant treating her method seriously, just as I think MWF was a great 
example of that comedy genre.  If the writers in either situation simply made 
fun of or mimicked the genre, I doubt even some of the more astute fans of 
those genres would've appreciated it.  Much of XWP was an homage to some genre or 
another.  What I generally liked was how well the writers integrated XWP 
stories and characters into them, managing to preserve the essence of what was 
"true" to the series from my point of view.  

By "anti" schmaltz, I meant I think Fugate knew exactly what she was doing 
with the romance ideas and probably saw a useful purpose in those, as writers 
tend to look in all sorts of places for ideas.  But if she'd wanted that to be 
the main point, she wouldn't have shown the importance of the backstory and X&
G's love as more "real" and preferable in their own blood and guts world.  

- -- Ife
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 01:45:53 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak

In a message dated 10/5/2003 12:18:11 AM Central Daylight Time, 
cr@orcon.net.nz writes:

> The "connection" was between the real
> >X&G, not the alternate ones we saw on the surface.  D'uh. <g>
> >
> >-- Ife
> 
> Umm, I have to disagree.   In this (WFC) timeline, these *were* the real 
> X&G, the others never existed.   (It's quite unlike the 'alternate universe' 
> 
> in Stranger in a Strange World where the inhabitants of the two universes 
> were conjugates of each other).   Therefore, there were no other X&G's to 
> have any connection, and therefore the insta-soulmates thing must stand or 
> fall by itself.   I think it falls.   
> 

Grrrr.  I meant "real" to us.  I didn't bother with noodling through whatever 
dimension they were in -- especially how Alti could summon up images from 
what hadn't happened.  It wasn't just the "insta-soulmates" thing that was 
involved.  It was also the "right" destiny or life X&G were supposed to have.  Xena 
saw past scenes related to Caesar, not just to Gabrielle.

- -- Ife
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 01:45:54 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<When Fates Collide>> (fwd)

In a message dated 10/5/2003 12:18:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
cr@orcon.net.nz writes:

> Also very bad tactics was not letting Caesar kill Alti right then and 
> there, 
> after Alti had attacked her.   A sudden attack of the James Bond Villain 
> Syndrome - "No Mister Bond, I'm not going to kill you right now, I'm going 
> to 
> leave you in this fiendish trap so you have every chance to escape and come 
> after me again".   
> 

I thought it was very "heads-up" on Xena's part.  Don't forget, she didn't 
know the extent of Alti's relationship with Caesar at the time.  She might've 
feared Ceasar would have Alti killed before she could further explore other 
visions Alti might conjure up.  The "we'll battle in the arena" ruse not only made 
sure Alti stayed alive, but it threw Caesar off Xena's real reason for 
wanting Alti to survive a little longer.

- -- Ife
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 01:45:55 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak

In a message dated 10/5/2003 12:18:07 AM Central Daylight Time, 
cr@orcon.net.nz writes:

> On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:37, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
> 
> (snippage)
> 
> >Everyone's spirit needs replenishing sometimes, especially carrying Xena's
> >baggage.  Where else would she have gotten that from?  Sensitive chats with
> >Herc?  Praying to her dead brother?  An inspirational card from Cyrene? 
> >Scrolls on How To Be Good To Yourself?   After however many weeks or months
> >between leaving Herc and running into Gabs, Xena's already admitting it's
> >hard being alone.  Whatever self-motivation and goodness she possessed
> >before Gabs, I think it was "essential" having someone to share her
> >triumphs with, articulate their value, and escape with sometimes in
> >childish fun.   
> 
> Hmm, true.   
> 
> Of course, Tara would have done OK for that.   Or Amarice.   Had they come 
> along earlier.    
> 
> cr
> ... running for the hills 
> 

Nah, I can only roll my eyes at that suggestion.  I'm only surprised you 
didn't have Callisto on the list.  Heh.

- -- Ife
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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 18:27:45 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The problem with cr's messages...

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:27, H.J.J. Hewitt wrote:
> ...is that they're so good I want to read them in the proper sequence in
> relation to the others in an interchange.  \HOW many/ hours should I
> subtract from the time in his date line to figure out what the local time
> would be?  (And, what about when we go off daylight saving time?)
>
>
> TEXena

Yeah.   

Well, I reset my date and time a couple of days ago.   Unfortunately I was 12 
hours out.

I think I've just set it correctly.    Whether my computer will agree with me 
is, of course, a matter of luck.

cr
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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:33:10 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<When Fates Collide>> (fwd)

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:45, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/5/2003 12:18:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
>
> cr@orcon.net.nz writes:
> > Also very bad tactics was not letting Caesar kill Alti right then and
> > there,
> > after Alti had attacked her.   A sudden attack of the James Bond Villain
> > Syndrome - "No Mister Bond, I'm not going to kill you right now, I'm
> > going to
> > leave you in this fiendish trap so you have every chance to escape and
> > come after me again".
>
> I thought it was very "heads-up" on Xena's part.  Don't forget, she didn't
> know the extent of Alti's relationship with Caesar at the time.  She
> might've feared Ceasar would have Alti killed before she could further
> explore other visions Alti might conjure up.  The "we'll battle in the
> arena" ruse not only made sure Alti stayed alive, but it threw Caesar off
> Xena's real reason for wanting Alti to survive a little longer.
>
> -- Ife

OK, so she had a reason.   (Which I must admit I'd missed).   Turned out to 
be very high-risk, though, didn't it?  ;)

cr
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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:37:51 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:45, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:

> >
> > Of course, Tara would have done OK for that.   Or Amarice.   Had they
> > come along earlier.
> >
> > cr
> > ... running for the hills
>
> Nah, I can only roll my eyes at that suggestion.  I'm only surprised you
> didn't have Callisto on the list.  Heh.
>
> -- Ife

Roll 'em all you like.     IMO, if they'd brought in Tara (and not Gabs) in 
Episode 1, I reckon by now there would be legions of Tarafans exclaiming over 
the 'chemistry' between Shiri and LL and declaiming how nobody else could 
possibly have taken her place.   

But then I'm just a cynic.   An iconoclastic one at that, sometimes.   ;)

(I wouldn't add Callisto to the list simply because she could never fill the 
sidekick's role.   Much too intense.   It wouldn't be Xena + sidekick, it'd 
be catfight, all the way    :)

cr
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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:32:01 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:45, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/5/2003 12:18:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
>
> cr@orcon.net.nz writes:
> > The "connection" was between the real
> >
> > >X&G, not the alternate ones we saw on the surface.  D'uh. <g>
> > >
> > >-- Ife
> >
> > Umm, I have to disagree.   In this (WFC) timeline, these *were* the real
> > X&G, the others never existed.   (It's quite unlike the 'alternate
> > universe'
> >
> > in Stranger in a Strange World where the inhabitants of the two universes
> > were conjugates of each other).   Therefore, there were no other X&G's to
> > have any connection, and therefore the insta-soulmates thing must stand
> > or fall by itself.   I think it falls.
>
> Grrrr.  I meant "real" to us.  I didn't bother with noodling through
> whatever dimension they were in -- especially how Alti could summon up
> images from what hadn't happened.  It wasn't just the "insta-soulmates"
> thing that was involved.  It was also the "right" destiny or life X&G were
> supposed to have.  Xena saw past scenes related to Caesar, not just to
> Gabrielle.
>
> -- Ife

Hmmm.  Good point.    If Caesar had altered the timeline so the 'other' world 
never existed, how could those scenes have ever happened?   Plot hole!   

cr
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:17:59 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak

In a message dated 10/6/03 4:43:58 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz 
writes:

<< IMO, if they'd brought in Tara (and not Gabs) in 
 Episode 1, I reckon by now there would be legions of Tarafans exclaiming 
over 
 the 'chemistry' between Shiri and LL and declaiming how nobody else could 
 possibly have taken her place.    >>

Don't know about the real-life actors, but the character of Tara was too much 
like Xena Jr.   Not enough tension between their different outlooks on life 
or ways of operating.   In her way, she was much more immitative and less of 
her own person than Gabs.  Maybe Gabs irritated me at first for some of those 
very reasons, but she also grew on me because of tthat.  Tara might've been okay 
at first, but probably much more boring and "one note" over the long haul -- 
unless they were prepared to make Xena more like a crusty Lao Ma.  <g>

- -- Ife
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:18:00 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<When Fates Collide>> (fwd)

In a message dated 10/6/03 4:43:57 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz 
writes:

<< > I thought it was very "heads-up" on Xena's part.  Don't forget, she 
didn't
 > know the extent of Alti's relationship with Caesar at the time.  She
 > might've feared Ceasar would have Alti killed before she could further
 > explore other visions Alti might conjure up.  The "we'll battle in the
 > arena" ruse not only made sure Alti stayed alive, but it threw Caesar off
 > Xena's real reason for wanting Alti to survive a little longer.
 >
 > -- Ife
 
 OK, so she had a reason.   (Which I must admit I'd missed).   Turned out to 
 be very high-risk, though, didn't it?  ;)
  >>

Let's see....  Xena does something risky in order to gain knowledge.  And 
your point would be?   

- -- Ife
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:18:01 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak

In a message dated 10/6/03 4:43:57 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz 
writes:

<<  If Caesar had altered the timeline so the 'other' world 
 never existed, how could those scenes have ever happened?   Plot hole!    >>

Or, you could redefine your concept of such timeline alterations,to include 
forces (e.g., X&G's love) which can't be altered no matter how someone tries to 
tamper with them.  Much easier to skip over plot holes, once you let go of 
all preconceptions, "sci-fi canon" or "logic."   <g>

- --Ife
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 20:11:24 -0400
From: "Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide

Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:09:01 -0800 (AKDT)
From: KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>




<For example, there has never been any indication in the real timeline that
Xena ever wanted to be a benign ruler.  She was originally motivated to
become a warrior for defense of her homeland.  When that went bad, she was
"on the lam" and doing petty piracy to sustain herself when she met
Caesar.>

Actually she wasn't on the "lam" in Destiny.  Her motivation in Destiny was
still protecting Amphipolis (and stealing really nice dresses).  We do know
she was ambitious and wanted to rule with Xena.  This doesn't mean she
couldn't be a good ruler or even a benign ruler.  There is no indication in
Destiny that this Xena was especially cruel or even evil until her betrayal.


<But in this ep we are asked to believe that getting Caesar to be her
boyfriend was a catalyst for Xena to become a benevolent ruler. (And by
the way, just exactly what made Xena such a good ruler?  What did she do
to gain the love of the troops and the people?)  Being married to Caesar
has apparently made Xena a happy-go-lucky grrl.  Watch her in the
beginning when she comes in and plays around with him. This Xena is a
sunny chick, filled with sunshine and smiles as she bounds happily up to
her husband, Caesar.>

She is rich, powerful and co-ruler of the most powerful nation on earth why
shouldn't she be a happy.  Her marriage seems on the surface to be successful.
We of course don't know exactly why she is a good ruler - we know the army
respects her and that she is capable of kindness (i.e. her physician treats
Joxer's daughter).   The reformed Xena is not habitually cruel or nasty and
seems to have a soft spot of children there is no indication that Xena
couldn't be a good ruler.  Her cruelty was the result of her betrayal by
Caesar and her various encounters with people Alti.  Snatch from that time
line and make Xena a ruler and I think given her intelligence and basic
humanity she would be a fine ruler.

<...  Was able to not kill Brutus for so
many years?  Didn't kill Xena the minute he could but instead stood by and
watched her love and admiration from their subjects far overwhelm his own?
Oh I think not.>

Who says the people love Xena more than Caesar.  That's not in the story line.
In fact it would appear Caesar didn't kill Xena because he knew her potential
and used her to become the ruler of Rome.  So had to share his throne with a
beautiful woman , it sure beats sharing with Pompey and Crassius.

<So then, how did such an impatient and egotistical megalomaniac as Caesar
manage to wait this long to extract his revenge?>

Caesar wasn't interested in revenge at least not against Xena.  He was
interested in power.  Xena helped him achieve and keep power.  It was only
after she threatened his power that he turned against her.

...

<Alti had never realized her powers before?  She had never grabbed somebody
(all of whom presumably existed in both worlds as they did in the
Sovereign shadow world on Herc) and hit upon any "real" memories before?>

If she did hit upon "real" memories how would she have know it?  The reason
she figured out something was wrong with Xena's memories is that she had some
intimate knowledge of Xena's history.  The memories didn't fit what should
have been Xena's memories.  That's what threw Alti and Xena - the memories
didn't fit the history of the world they lived in.


<Would Gabrielle really have torched that loom without agonizing over
changing everything that had happened for all the other people in it?  If
all the people exist in both worlds, for some of them, that world has to
be a BETTER place.  A place where perhaps THEY are not slaves or widows or
murderers or dead.  Indeed, how did Gabrielle know that she wasn't
condemning all of them to total oblivion for her own selfish purposes?>

Actually according to Katherine Fulgate ROC was concerned about killing
everyone.  Gabrielle however wasn't simply because she was going to put things
right or at least destroy what was wrong.  I have always felt Gabrielle has a
touch of the zealot in her.  She has before her vision of right and wrong,
which she can pursue with a frightening single mindedness. Once she discovers
that the world is an artificial construct she is going to correct it.  She is
also bitter and angry - Gabrielle has a powerful dark side to her - remember
she betrays Xena in the Debt out of jealously - I think she could destroy that
loom out of anger and frustration.

<Why is Gabrielle in this world not the lion hearted brave beyond her
capabilities righteous defender of everybody that she was in "our" Xena
world?  What happened to her?>

Actually she is brave.  She is brave enough to return to the prison that she
just got out of to be with Xena.  Remember things are moving very fast here.
One minute she is a playwright, next minute she about to be executed, then a
witch on speed shows her life is a fraud, add to that she just feel in love
with the Empress of Rome - let's give a girl a break here.  That's a lot to
process in an afternoon.

<Right from the start of the real timeline
she was like that, so meeting Xena had not given her that blazing courage.
Where did it go?  Why is she so...ineffective and moony?>

Actually I don't find her all that ineffective.  There isn't a whole lot she
can do to save Xena but she does save the world in the end.  Perhaps that's
what people dislike about the episode is that Gabrielle saves the world while
Xena hangs on the cross.  The Gabrielle in the alternative world is not some
pathetic loser.  She is rich and successful.  She has managed to get herself
out of Potadiea and make a name for herself.  This Gabrielle is perhaps even
more independent than the "real" Gabrielle.


<The first time we see Xena is heart stoppingly kewl.  I loved how she rode
in, bounded off the horse and presented herself, the classic smart-assed
show off that she is.  And then suddenly she's sniffing flowers and
enjoying Harlequin Romance plays?  ...>

Perhaps Xena sniffs flowers when no one is looking.  She must do that - how
would she know all about those healing herbs?  As for the play - it was her
life that was being told so perhaps it just struck a cord with her.

<And she won't sleep with her spouse.  When has Xena ever turned down a
good roll in the hay?  (Other than Ares heh.)  Are we to believe that
becoming a warlord was what made her sexual and sensual? I don't think
so.  That was part of her makeup, part of who she was.  That's another
lack--there's no sensuality in her, no sense of joy of love in her...>

Perhaps that the point.  Her life is artificial - the joy she has isn't real.
Her love for Caesar isn't real. Also it isn't that farfetched to believe that
after ten years together she doesn't find Caesar that interesting as a lover.
They are after all more of a power couple than lovers.

...
<Xena returned to classic-any-time any-place-any-lifetime Xena when she
sacrificed herself for Gabrielle.  The cell scene between them was very
reminiscent of IOM, but just not as good.  WHY try to reprise a scene that
is surely a masterpiece?  Jeez, guys>

That scene isn't as good as IOM but I think it played well.   It of course
doesn't have the sense of drama of IOM simply because we know this world is
false and will be corrected so as deathbed scene it isn't as powerful.


<A bud of mine on another list said that though she loved this episode, she
literally turned the TV off at that moment, because it hit 100 on her
cringe-o-meter.  On that same list, another poster said that she feels
that all the mushy X & G stuff of this season is a major mistake on
PacRen's part.  ...>

Well I rather like the mush.  We had no much in season 5 so the mush-o-meter
quotient went up in season 6.


<I just don't enjoy romance stories where the whole story is merely that
the characters love each other, which I what I saw Fates devolve into.
That's just not enough story for me. I like the love to be present but I'm
just not that interested in it as the whole focus of an ep. I like a TOUGH
Xena who has love in her heart, the Xena of the good eps and scenes which
present far more complex ideas than just "These two people love each
other.  That's all folks!"  ...>

Of course the point is that this is a WFC is a romantic love story and it has
to be viewed from that point of view.  If you don't like that genre then this
isn't the episode for you.

<I prefer the love to be part of the story,
illuminating the relationship we've seen over the years.  I thought this
was really well presented in Abyss, with its emotionally wrenching cave
scene showing how much Xena hurt over having hurt someone she loved so
much. The Ring Trilogy is another  excellent example of the way to
showcase the love between these characters without using them as puppets
by dismissing or replacing elements of their personality that we all know
so well.>

Yes I like the more subtle stories too but I found WFC to be kind of
liberating.  Here the love story took center stage and I found that to brave
move on TPTB part.  This is a mushy tragic love story between two women done
as high drama - I think that was first for popular TV.

....
<And I agree with that.  It's a PURE schmaltzy bad fanfic take.  I don't
think Fugate writes fanfic and I believe I read in the official mag that
she's not online or wasn't on line when she was tapped to write this one.
I think she has a good future in fanfic.>

As you probably know by now she is a screenwriter.  She is not a fan fiction
writer.  By the way all fan fiction writers are not bad writers.  I find a lot
of fan fiction very good.

...
<And then it got worse.  Far worse.  The gratuitous violence in this ep is
horrific.  Xena gets shot with arrows, gets dragged behind a horse,
(that's three times now-does she get a charm?  Can't you just see a little
horsie and dragee on her charm bracelet?) and is crucified--by the order
of her spouse.>

Jeeze how cum we always get upset when Xena gets beat up.  We have never
complained when Xena is shooting people full of arrows or loping their heads
off or dragging them behind Argo.  But if Xena gets all bloody we just can't
stand it.

<I HATED seeing Xena being in the power of two of her greatest enemies,
subjected to humiliation, pain and agony.  Ooooo, let's watch the bad
girl's enemies take great pleasure at seeing her tortured, degraded and
killed, being laughed at by Alti as she's in extremis, having her husband
turn his back  on her also laughing at her as he goes off to f*ck the
woman who hates Xena in every timeline and in every world.  This was VERY
hard to watch, never mind enjoy. I just don't need to watch an ep that
rips Xena's life and dignity to shreds.>

Actually isn't it Xena who has the last laugh.  Caesar is dead.  Alti is blown
to smithereens again.  I have always felt that Xena knew exactly what she was
doing when she went to that cross.  She knew that the her death and Caesar's
death were connected.  Her death on the cross was her way of destroying
Caesar.  I believe she sacrificed herself in order to destroy Caesar.

Look it no one can argue anyone into liking an episode they don't like.  I
have criticisms of the episode myself.  I dislike that Caesar is seems to be a
dunderhead - he knows that his death and Xena's death are tied together yet he
still kills her.  He knows Alti is unreliable and yet he takes her to bed.
There is no earthly reason to kill Brutus but he does anyway.  Caesar never
seems to ponder that there may be consequences to killing a popular Empress
and a loyal friend.  I however never thought the episode did an injustice to
Xena or Gabrielle.  Xena is a little softer but then her life has been easier
and with less hardships.  Gabrielle isn't pounding people with her stick but I
saw that inner strength there.  They were to me the same people - a bit
changed because of circumstances but they were Xena and Gabrielle.

CherylA
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 16:42:20 -0800 (AKDT)
From: KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1

KT wrote:
>  << I think her decision to try to kill Hope was a real life-changing event
>  for her. The first time is always the hardest. >>


Ife answered:
> Are you not counting Meridian because that was an impulsive, unintentionally
> lethal kill?
>


Yes. Also because Meridian practically threw herself on the knife. She
certainly didn't move away from it by any means. She seemed quite happy
and honored to be a martyr whose death at Gabrielle's hands corrupted
Gabrielle enough to prepare her to be the vessel to bring Dahok's spawn
into the world. Meridian sacrificed herself to sacrifice Gabrielle's
innocence for Dahok's needs.

And also, I was talking about the first time you decide to kill someone
ahead of time. (And do follow through on it, of course.)

KT
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Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:04:20 -0400
From: Lee Daley <leedaley@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Tarzan: Initial response

At 10:21 PM 10/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:

><snip>
>
>With the salient exception of XENA I just don't watch "stuff that's acted",
>so I am utterly out of my league in trying to assess what I saw.  But I
>liked what I saw.  For what it set out to be, it seemed that --given a
>reasonable time slot-- it ought to be found satisfactory by a mass audience.
>
><snip>
>
>Now I am eager to see what \y'all/ have to say.
>
>
>TEXena

Well let's see.......
Take the following:

Hong Kong type action scenes.
A really big building with a HUGE sign for the enemy's lair.
A hero off the cover of a romance novel.
A conspiracy involving mega bucks.
A romantic triangle.
Love at first sight.
Bare chests.
Metropolitan police for lights, guns and sirens.
A convoluted plot that's rather obvious.
People hanging from gargoyles.
Rather bizarre sub-plot baddies.

Mix them all together, film them slightly underexposed to give it an 
"artsy" look, and put it on the air in a bad time slot.

OK it is the pilot, and they have to cram in as much as possible to attract 
potential viewers and advertisers.  A little something for everyone.

But overall this does not look good, let's hope Lucy brings some magic to 
the table.

We will get to see Lucy in modern attire.  That will no doubt make for some 
good screen-caps.

Of course I will tape EVERY episode...........  maybe putting Lucy in 
wasn't such a bad idea, now if they could find a way to get Renee in 
there............................

LeeD, Warrior Jester and Critic.
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End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #297
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