From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #295 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, October 5 2003 Volume 03 : Number 295 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] To Helicon [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Xena's wild streak [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 1 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> (fwd) [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> (fwd) [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:29:25 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] To Helicon Hey, just for the hell of it, I'll resend my Helicon review also. (Since I mentioned Helicon in the Fates Review.) Although this isn't my favorite season by any means, I felt all the eps so far this year were more good than bad. But just when I began to think we might get through a season without any really bad episodes, something like this comes out and floats belly up. Oh well, it wouldn't be XWP without falling flat on its face and horrifying a few fans from time to time. This ep was stunningly bad to me. I cannot remember another episode that cranked on in such total silence in my house. We even sat still during the commercials, just staring kind of slack-jawed in puzzled disbelief at the screen. And when it ended my honey and I looked at each other and we both went, "HUH?" This ep reminded me of Tsunami. And the Executioner. And For Him The Bell Tolls--those tapes that live in my "Saved for archival purposes but don't bother re-watching box". I wondered why the hell they created this hatchet job on the Amazons. This was the worst representation of Amazons I've ever seen on XWP. These Amazons were unskilled, witless fighters who seemed amazed that people get hurt and killed in battle. They had no heart for war. They were like a bunch of frightened geese, screaming when they were fired upon and squealing and scattering in terror when they got scared. These Amazons seemed to never have seen battle nor to have any ingenuity, courage or war savvy. And they were wingey to boot. This is the kind of ep that if seen by "civilians" confirms their beliefs that this show is indeed the way they THINK it is. For me, the main problem with this ep is what that we got here is the High Concept of the Homage. I have never liked any homage except for the "You Are there" one. That one was priceless and marvelous. In that one they just took the idea and formatted it fully to XWP sensibilities and characters. That was still Xena, Gabrielle, Ares, Aphrodite, Odin, Grunhilda, etc. etc. With vast wit and comedy both mental and physical to enjoy. But this one... The problem with most of the homages XWP does is that they merely copycat the original material, not enhance it nor use it as a springboard for new insights or conclusions. They take their existing characters and just jam them into being the characters from the homaged piece. And it just doesn't fit. It tortures the show's own plot lines and characters into twisted, unrecognizable robotrons who are dancing to the tune of other people's creations. The creativity and originality, the loony strangeness of XWP are a large part of why I watch this show. And that freshness and outrageousness always falls by the wayside during their homages. You know, I had no plan to ever watch this one again, but then I read a post from a buddy of mine, wherein she laments, "I mean, ok, 1. you have amazons, theoretically great guerilla fighters, specialty forest guerilla warfare. 2. you have an unknown enemy holed up in a stronghold. 3. you have Xena brilliant military mind with a knack for infiltrating, sneaking and spying out her enemies. What do you do? Full frontal amphibious assault?!?!? What, did Xena have a lobotomy? Since when is it a good idea to minimze your strengths rather then capitalize on them? The sheer stupidity of the characters and contrivedness of the plot just drove me nuts." So I thought about the plot what plot of this ep (and not in that GOOD way, if ya catch my drift) and couldn't remember exactly why they were on the boat. So I was going to rewatch just enough of it to figure that out. But on second viewing, once the original "stun" factor was muted, I saw that this ep is actually so bad it's good. Okay-lines, scenes and plot points I found hysterical on second viewing: That first fight in the Amazon compound- didn't Amazons use to have sentries? Hell, didn't Amazons use to have swords? These girls were mostly fighting hand to sword combat. Some of them are seen picking swords up off the ground, but not many seemed to have their own. It was like the army had come through some village where the warriors were off to war and only the "wimmin" were home to fight them. Women who were surprised by the attack and totally ill prepared and unable to fend it off. But on XWP, even village women and men fight pretty well when confronted by bad guys. They usually give a good account of themselves--hell in AUS, they even stand firm against a whole conglomeration of armies. So actually these Amazons were presented as being even worse fighters than the regular run of the mill folks on XWP. At the end of the fight, we hear somebody scream, "They've got Varia". And get a shot of that big ol' redheaded Amazon watching the guy ride by hauling Varia off. And what is her reaction to the kidnapping of her war queen? She hefts her two hatchets and--slams them into the ground. What--she was afraid she might hurt somebody with them? And then she screams in outraged frustration because the guy gets away. I wanted to smack her in the back of her head and say, "Why didn't you throw those hatchets at the guy kidnapping Varia? Or at his horse?" These Amazons get their butts whipped in their own compound. They're like the Keystone Warriors. The second time around I also discovered why Gabrielle was picked to be the leader. (I was so stunned silly by this ep the first time that I missed a lot of these little details. And actually, whenever Cyane talks about hearing all these "great things" that Gabrielle did, I always wonder what's she heard. I suspect somebody threw some fanfic into the Amazon scroll archive. KT scowls suspiciously at Missy.) I mean, here we are with a gathering of queens, most of whom probably got their access to the title by earning it through years of effort or by being born to it, not by being handed it by a dying princess. And most of whom have probably lived among the Amazons for most of their lives, not just visited them four or five times over the last 31 and a half years. Women who have the loyalty of individuals and tribes. BUT, they pick Gabrielle to lead them because they need "someone familiar with the terrain of Greece". Then they all cluster around and look at a map! Did Gab have the map of Greece hidden in her luggage? Is that why the Amazons couldn't just read the map for themselves and so needed somebody who knows Greece? If they don't know Greece, what the hell were they doing THERE making queens? Why did they pick that area of unfamiliar terrain to all of them for this ceremony? Beats me. And why wouldn't Xena just go in and rescue Varia, like she's done so often in the past for girls captured by warlords and being held in their strongholds? With a hot tub scene thrown in for good measure. Because this is an homage and we're gonna redo the scenes we liked so much in those other movies no matter how alien these choices and the subsequent events are to our characters. And by golly, Xena just can't take Belleraphon! (For a minute, I thought I was watching a season four rerun.) But no, this time she can't take the bad guy because he's half god and really p*ssed with Xena for having killed his mother and the Amazons for having let her. We get a deja vu of Xena being held at knifepoint, haven't seen that since season three when Caesar did this to the young and inexperienced Xena IN A FLASHBACK. Meanwhile, the Zons and their Queen who knows Greece are floating towards shore. They all stand up in the boat and emit girly squeals whenever it rocks. They are scared to be at sea. Gabrielle, who has apparently used her pressure points remedy to stop her well established seasick malady, walks among them, bucking up the troops. While either refusing or just forgetting to share Xena's medical knowledge with them. (You know, if they'd just sat down, they wouldn't have felt the rocking so much.) Switch to Belleraphon saying he knows they're coming by sea and Xena's huge saucered eyes and horrified expression when he says that. GASP! Then just for some irony, Gabrielle says to the Zons, "When we hit the shore, disembark in silence. (She's warning them because she's afraid they'll all squeal and cry like pre-title IX girls when they get there and have to get their feet wet as they run through the water.) She continues, "The element of surprise is our greatest weapon." Sadly, for these dames, that's probably true. When Belleraphon gives the order to fire the catapults, Xena is filled with "Gotta Protect Gabrielle Fire" and is suddenly able to easily break out of Belleraphon's hold and just run away. One good laugh was Xena taking that guy out the window with her--for some reason, that really tickled me, even on the first viewing. Meanwhile, down in the sea, the Zons' boat has been sunk under them. They're floating and bobbing around in the water, whining and crying and Cyan screams out, "We can't stay here much longer! What"ll we do, Gabrielle?" Gab immediately screams, "Stay calm!" Stay calm!? How about swimming to shore? I know beyond a doubt that if I were floating in the ocean wearing a full set of leather and carrying metal weapons on my body, I'd be stripping and dog paddling full bore to the beach (in as calm a manner as I could). But the Amazons can't quite figure this out for themselves, so they just float around squealing and crying for a while. Finally, Gabrielle gets a brainstorm. "We're taking the beach! GO!" Boy, good thing she remembered that, eh? Otherwise, the Zons might have floated out there until they evolved into some kind of sea creatures. We now have either the fastest sunrise in the history of Greece or else these girls can swim fully clothed while carrying weapons for hours on end AND not get hypothermic. The Zons hit the beach and immediately start getting shot down. This time they have their swords, but they forgot their bows and arrows. An interesting side note--there are trees in the background and a boulder strewn headland to their right, yet they run across the open beach to hide behind these teensy little branch barriers that Belleraphon's boys put out as bait apparently. Once again these Amazons get totally spooked. They squeal and scream their way up the beach and act as if they've never seen anyone die before. All they needed was some heels and pearls to complete the helpless, hapless classic B movie women in danger look. Gabrielle's next brainstorm--send out somebody to be a diversion. G: "Trudis, can you do it?" T: "I'll go." She hesitates and Gabrielle gets impatient and urges her along with a toss of her head. So Trudis runs out, waking the catapult guys out of their stuptified boredom, gets about two feet away, and gets blown up. This great diversion tactic gives the girls all of 12 seconds before they run out from their little branch hideaways in sheer girly hysteria, dash halfway across the open sands and then apparently give up the effort to reach the protection of the dune and instead lie down flat on the open beach. And wail. Great strategy They keep asking Gab what to do. How many times can she repeat, "RUN!" Run out into the open so they can blow you up and get good effects! The dialogue was exquisitely excruciating in it's own right. Standing amidst the carnage, G says, "We are not dying here." Gee, it sure looks like that to me. (In more ways than one.) Xena storms out of the water, having spent even more time floating around than the Zons did. (I bet she took in a little surfing while she was out there.) X: "They're being led by the son of Artemis. Do you understand?" G "He's going to destroy us!" YES! Gab gets a clue! G. "You should take over." X: The Amazons aren't going to listen to me." Since when? It's that 26 year gap and that fan fic file that's got all those gals confused, I bet. Gabrielle tells Xena, "You should take command." Xena refuses, saying that it's up to Gabrielle. And then a Zon cracks up under the strain, jumps up and runs off. Xena immediately takes command and screams at the woman, ordering her to stay put. The Zon stands up just as straight as she can and flings her arms out and waves her sword, just to be sure that the guys can spot her. And she not only gets pincushioned with a bunch of arrows, they then throw a fire ball on top of her for good measure. Perhaps the Zon filled with arrows was a little homage to their own Maternal Instincts. My thought as I looked at her was, "Gods, wouldn't it be kewl if they took the arrows out and then dumped some water down her throat. An Amazon fountain for their square" And then they had to go and blow her up. War IS hell and hard on monuments too. X: "I've got an IDEA! It won't buy us much time, only seconds, but it's the only chance we have." And the idea is? To use her chakram! DOH! We get another chorus of Gabrielle screaming, "Run, run, run, go, run!" That red-headed Amazon gets a little blown up, giving Xena her obligatory chance to scream out people's names at the top of her lungs during an ep. (And please tell me that Xena didn't run up to her and say, "Oh dear." Sure sounded like that to me both times I watched this.) And Xena's right--the chakram taking out one of the catapults doesn't buy them much time. In fact it really wasn't worth waiting around for instead of heading right to the shelter of the sand dunes, which they should have done the minute they hit the beach. I don't think these two diversions saved any more lives than if they had just hit the dunes right away. Gabrielle congratulates them all. "At least we're out of the line of fire." YAY! Then Varia comes out of the castle. She's wearing a blindfold. Now, her hands are chained in front of her so she could easily reach up and take the blindfold off but no, she walks the whole way back with it on. Apparently the fact that she can't see her hands keeps her from realizing just where they are, and how useful they could be to her in this current situation. (You know, it was moments like these that make me decide that this ep ranks [and I use that word advisedly] right up there with any other B movie you can pick. It's XWP's own Plan Nine From Outer Space.) Gabrielle immediately hands the reins of command back to Varia. Who decides they will retreat. Gabrielle is stunned. "RETREAT!" she yells incredulously. (She's just not the best strategist in the crowd, is she? Or maybe she just thought things were going well?) Xena suggests they escape by water and approach the castle from a different direction. Gabrielle then gets bent out of shape over taking the wounded along on the retreat. "More of us will be injured or die." (Subtext: "I don't want to take any chances with getting my queenly ass safely outta here") Xena and Varia sprout stiff speechless, embarrassed by G's lack of honorable leadership looks which shame Gabrielle into agreeing to take the wounded along. (Of course, she does get her revenge later for them slowing her down when she feeds one of the wounded to the sharks.) Then--the whole discussion of finding a path just cracked me up. V: "There's definitely a track I came down on. And if I came down..." and G's response, "...then we can go up !" Well, yeah, look, the castle is just over the dune and through the woods, guys. Gee, that there deep-trenched footpath up the dune looked like a pretty good place to start to me. V&G add, "Then we won't have to go through the water." WHY? Now that Varia's out, why the hell would you lay siege to the castle? Lure him out to your turf. Let him come after you there. The second time around, I wondered for a moment if the Bard Shooting Gallery scene was supposed to be a visual metaphor for how they're all sitting ducks. But probably not... Just why did they have to go do that character assassination of Varia? She was a cool character that they had given some interesting back story to. What a waste. A real Amazon would have used that ploy to escape and then just started guerrilla action against Belleraphon and his troops anytime they managed to find that incredibly elusive footpath and leave the castle. But we're also deconstructing the Amazons as great warriors in this ep, so maybe that's why Varia got shafted too. Gabrielle's anger over being used for target practice for the good of the tribe was very interesting due to other elements of the story. Gabrielle can ask a woman to sacrifice herself as a diversion for the tribe but when Varia picks one to sacrifice this is BAD? Okay, yes, Varia didn't ask Gab if she'd do it. And why didn't she? The Gabrielle we know certainly would have sacrificed herself for others. That would have been a very consistent character driven plot point. But apparently it's not something that was in Saving Private Ryan or The Longest Day or the Guns of Navarrone. This was definitely a ham-handed attempt to show that despite the horror of war, there's still honorable ways to wage it, things that good commanders just don't do. Xena of course is considering giving herself up. But Gabrielle talks her down. Gods, that water getaway scene was beyond funny. When I saw the fin in the water, I fully expected to hear a knock on the raft and a muffled voice saying, "Telegram! Telegram for Gabrielle!" Then an expectant beat. And when that didn't work, another knock and a hopeful, "Pizza delivery!" (The Land Shark bits on Saturday Night Live are some of the few things I really enjoy about that show.) One of the Amazons in the water squeals,: "Something touched my leg! Something BIG!" Heh. I bet it was Xena. And I didn't hear Gab ask that wounded Zon if she wanted to be a shark hors d'oeurve either. She just pulls that Zon off her raft, gives her a push and with a gentle, "Travel safely sister" slides her out to the waiting maw. Of course the woman manages to float unerringly right towards the shark and not sink on the spot. And again of course, the shark immediately focuses on this still, calm mass floating towards it and recognizes that as food rather than the moving, agitated, wounded and bloody, pumping limbs like wounded prey Amazons bobbing in the water. Riiiiiight. Luckily, they don't have much of a special effects budget left after all those catapult blow up bits, so they apparently were not able to show the feeding frenzy that should have resulted after the shark was done with the appetizer. G: "Was that honorable?" X: "Would you have given yourself for her?" Well, based upon how p*ssed Gab got when Varia tried to sacrifice HER for the good of the tribe, I think the answer is no. THIS Gabrielle wouldn't do that. The real Gabrielle would have tried to save them all, by leaping on its back and biting its fin or sticking her finger in its eye, making Xena swim over and save her by punching the shark out and drowning it. I can just hear the sing-song taunts the next time the queens get into a hissy fit with each other. "Gabrielle can pick a sacrifice but not be picked to be one. Neener, neener, neener." Xena the non-commander then orders the girls, "Forward" and they swim on. You know I still don't understand why they couldn't just walk along the shore to get to the other side of the castle. But then we would have lost out on the Jaws homage. Then of course, we get Xena's "New Plan" to lure Belleraphon out of his castle, where the Zons can capitalize on their guerrilla warfare skills. So Xena casually comes riding up to the gate on Lil' Argo. Now how the hell did she AND the horse get there without any problems? Did Xena send a telegram to Argo telling her to swim to Mommy? Or did Xena swim back, get Argo and then just ride through the strategically placed, heavily defended, nobody gets past us mountain pass? I haven't decided yet myself. And then when Xena calls to Belleraphon, he opens the gates, preens in the doorway for a bit and then walks out. Doesn't even peek around first to see if there's any hidden Amazons in the trees. Then his boys run out behind him. Literally RUN out. What---they only got three horses? I guess not many of their horses can swim. And YAY! This time during the battle, the Amazons remembered to bring all their weapons. And they fight like warriors! And we're treated to some more amazing dialogue. B: "Oh you forget, Xena, you can't kill me because I'm half-god." X: "You forget--you're half mortal too." Slash. Die. Now how could someone "forget" something like that? The first time around I didn't notice that the ending is actually very good. Lucy acted well in the "I can see that you're in pain scene. (Although that "Aw, Gabrielle" moue when Gab says, "Don't try to comfort me" was pure Lucy, not much Xena. The rest of that scene though Lucy did pull her Xena character back on over her Lucy face.) "War is tough on the soul" Xena's hurt is excellent. But it was way too little too late to save this ep for me. The weirdest thing about this ep to me is that they've been over this ground already and have dealt with it far better in past episodes like A Good Day and Endgame. Why take someone else's "War is hell" study and homage it when you've got excellent stuff in the can on this topic already? It's unfathomable to me. I think this ep was indeed part of a winding down process that PacRen started in OAHAF, when for the first time ever when Xena remembered her past, she recalled the time before she was evil. She reached back into her innocent days and enjoyed them, instead of going for the guilt and horror of her more recent bad past. What I'm finding REALLY hysterical is that one of my little gabfan buddies said to me that in this ep, she's finally seeing what I see in Xena. But *I* didn't see it this ep. Not even Lucy could save this ep for me. I think even she didn't know how to play this mishmosh very well. Either that or she had a bad case of short timer's disease. Hey--maybe they were TRYING to make a bad ep. To make us feel better that it's almost over? Gee, thanks guys. But as for me, I'd much rather you tried to leave me wanting more rather than letting me down "easy". KT _________________________________________________ Note: I have to say though that Liz Friedman and Venessa Place more than redeemed themselves for the awful Helicon with the script for "Many Happy Returns". I loved that ep. Hmmm--perhaps Helicon WAS supposed to be a comedy... KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:32:12 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:37, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snippage) > Everyone's spirit needs replenishing sometimes, especially carrying Xena's > baggage. Where else would she have gotten that from? Sensitive chats with > Herc? Praying to her dead brother? An inspirational card from Cyrene? > Scrolls on How To Be Good To Yourself? After however many weeks or months > between leaving Herc and running into Gabs, Xena's already admitting it's > hard being alone. Whatever self-motivation and goodness she possessed > before Gabs, I think it was "essential" having someone to share her > triumphs with, articulate their value, and escape with sometimes in > childish fun. Hmm, true. Of course, Tara would have done OK for that. Or Amarice. Had they come along earlier. cr ... running for the hills ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:23:02 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Xena's wild streak On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 11:59, Cheryl Ande wrote: > KTL wrote > > > Now see, I think this disses Gabrielle. There is nothing in Gabrielle's > > character that would make me believe that she wants to live her life with > > a tamed, quiet, tasteful, peaceful companion. If she did, she'da stayed > > with Perdicus. Instead of begging Xena to get her away from the man she's > > supposed to marry because he's "dull and stupid". > > You know your are right. Gabrielle does love Xena for her wild streak and > that is certainly what attracts her. She is also as footloose as Xena. > It's Gabrielle that wants to go trapsing off to India, isn't it? About the > only time she seems to consider settling down is in that one Amazon epsiode > where she gets painted blue. Of course it doesn't last long does it. > > CherylA Yeah that blue paint wears off real fast. cr ... visualising Season 6 with a blue Gabrielle ;) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:21:34 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 1 On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 23:14, KTL wrote: > massive snippage > > > > Well hell, almost everybody else in her life is dead! Even Hercules is > > > probably already in Olympus, courtesy of his...er whoops, dead father. > > > Hmmmm. In the real myth, Zeus takes Hercules up to Olympus at the end. > > > Wonder how Hercules ends up on Tapert's version of the myth. Guess > > > we'll never know now since last we saw, he was just walking off into > > > the sunset with his little boy toy. > > > > Umm, nope, God Fearing Child came after Full Circle. GFC was the true > > finale of the Herc series, IMO. > > > > (How do I know? Because, at the end of Full Circle, Zeus and Hera were > > still alive. By the end of GFC they were dead.) > > Yeah, but where do you think Herc goes after he offs Zeus? I'm sure he > just goes back to strolling with Iolaus. Herc's story never ended--it was > much more like regular tv shows that way. Okay, I'll argue that in a moment. I was just making the point that 'Full Circle' was not really the Herc finale, since God Fearing Child happened *after* that. Maybe he did hook up with Iolaus again after that. And maybe the Furies did take a bit of time off (before Xena chakkied 'em in Coming Home) to torment Herc offscreen. Sin (aka the Devil) was still lurking around, waiting to have another crack at him, too, or at least until Xena fixed him in Haunting of Amphipolis. Busy girl Xena. > But of course it was much > lighter than Xena and Herc didn't have those huge personal flaws to > deal with. Herc was much more of a regular action adventure show that > way--there wasn't really an internal conflict that he had to "conquer", > not much he had to atone for like Xena did. (Although I bet he's WAY happy > Xena killed the Furies so he doesn't have to worry about the fallout from > killing his father.) > > The story line of Herc was...Herc has adventures, yeah? > > The story line of Xena was, "Xena is a reforming warlord, trying to > become a better person and to make restitution for old wrongs." > > One really has no need of an ending because there is no conflict to have > been resolved. > > The other one does have the major conflict of the whole series. And it did > get resolved at the end. Well no, not quite correct. Depends how you mean 'conflict'. Xena's conflict was, maybe, within herself, over her own dark past. Herc didn't have that to be bothered about. However, throughout the whole series, Herc was in conflict with his father Zeus and his wicked stepmother Hera. This was really only resolved in God Fearing Child when Hera overcame her jealousy of Herc and Herc ended up killing Zeus to protect Xena. Herc's internal conflict was with his own dark side, which was made apparent in several eps, most noticeably in Be Deviled. So yes, he *did* have personal flaws to deal with, even if they were overshadowed by Xena's. In many episodes, he was faced with difficult personal choices to make, such as in The End of the Beginning, one of the 'aternate timeline' eps that TPTB liked to do, when he had to 'cancel out' the timeline of his past short marriage to Serrena, the Golden Hind, in order for her to remain alive. (That was where the Hinds Blood dagger came from, btw). In Episode 1, The Wrong Path, within the first 5 minutes Hera had firebombed Herc's wife Deianeira and kids, in revenge for Herc's unremitting war against her priests and temples. Herc certainly felt guilty about that. "It wasn't me who hung the big bullseye on your family" - Callisto. So, Herk's dark side wasn't as pronounced as Xena's, partly because it was a lighter show, partly I think because the original premise of the shows (Herc = hero, Xena = villain) gave far more opportunity for Xena to have a Dark Past. I'd disagree with your implication in 'Herk has adventures' that HTLJ was *only* 'warlord of the week' stuff. It did have long-running story arcs, just not as pronounced as Xena's. > > Heh! I was discussing just this point with a fellow Xena / Farscape > > fan, and complaining that Gabrielle got away with far too much (as in > > Gurkhan - is anybody surprised? :) and that, if one of the Farscape > > characters had done that, they'd be hearing all about it for the next six > > eps. In other words, actions had consequences. In Xena, rather > > more often, actions only seem to have consequences for Xena, and they > > don't go away. > > That's because it's Xena's story. Y'know, I rather think you're right there. > > > With Xena's story, Tapert and Stewart created the most complex, > > > multi-layered, morally ambiguous, loaded-down-with-dense history > > > characters I have ever seen on my little TV screen. > > > > You don't watch Farscape, do you? ;) > > Yes, smarty pants, I do. Jade sent me copies of seasons two, three and > parts of four. It's an EXCELLENT show. BUT Lucy as Xena was better to me. > > Actually, I've thought for a while that the only person I could possibly > imagine as Xena other than Lucy just MIGHT be Claudia Clark. While not so > classically beautiful as Lucy, she is extremely attractive in a unique > way. But best of all, she play Aeryn as a totally believable warrior. Of > course, she had an obvioius role model in Lucy as Xena. I suggested that a while back (and got rubbished for it). On reflection, while I like Claudia Black, I don't think I would now suggest her as Xena. IMO, she doesn't have quite the intensity that LL could generate. I'm really not sure who does. > Lucy didn't have much to guide her. Most other girl-as-male-type-hero > stories are a linear transformation that show the female ramping up > through challenges to become the hero. Lucy had to BE the hero from the > beginning--no girly bits were first played and then left behind, > no lead up to how she became this way. Nope, she had to present herself as > this > best-warrior-in-the-known-world-who-happens-to-be-a-woman right from day > one. And she did a damn fine job at that. She did indeed. Of course, while it was new for Lucy, TPTB did have experience in half-a-dozen previous eps, in writing tough women, and I'm sure that helped a lot. It wasn't entirly new for LL, though, she did have that part in Herc and the Amazon Women as Lysia (was it?) the Amazon war leader, to draw on. (Who, ironically, ended up with Zeus for a one-night stand. Hmmm. Pity TPTB never worked that one into the Xena backstory. It would have been - intriguing. ;) > > That almost sounds like a contradiction. That I like the bits of > > history that come back to bite the characters, but I don't care that the > > ad-hoc things Xena does today may come back to haunt her in years to > > come. (Not inevitably. Sometimes we get away with it). > > > > But it isn't really a contradiction. Shit happens, all the time. And > > sometimes, the results are long-term. In fact, because of the infinite > > capacity of shit to happen, long-range plans don't usually work as > > intended, if at all. > > > > Maybe this is why I don't see any great Message in the ending of FIN. > > Some folks (obviously not lfe and cande?) felt that Xena's entire saga > > had a great moral attached, that she was working towards her reward, and > > her death cancelled out all that and made a nonsense of it. Others > > felt that FIN was the fitting culmination of her saga. I think that > > Xena's life *was* the message. That all her adventures added up to the > > whole, of which her death was just a part. And that the exact way that > > FIN ended didn't make a great deal of difference. Call it pragmatic, I > > guess. > > To me Xena's last few years of life was the message also. And that led to > her staying dead in FIN to save those lost souls. > > > > And of course, in the end this sacrifice does, as Akemi says, redeem > > > Xena too. Because in the next life, she's the Mother of Peace. Still > > > fighting for the little guy but this time only with her words and > > > example, not with her words, example AND chakram. > > > > I was about to say that, of course, that next-life thing contradicts my > > pragmatic approach. But actually, it doesn't. Xena only had to do > > her best from day to day (or in fact, be a warrrior, as Krishna told her > > and she decided in Ides). In that respect, what happened in FIN didn't > > really matter for Xena's long-term future (though it certainly changed > > her immediate career prospects ;) so long as she did the best she > > could, win or lose. > > Had she chosen to walk away from those souls, it would have mattered. > Because that would be the coward's way out. To not take the responsiblity > for what had happened. To say, there I've done enough, sorry it's not > enough. And as Lucy and Renee say in the commentary to FIN, what kind of > life would Xena have had after she had turned her back on those souls? > That would have been the end of the hero's story for sure... > > > KT Oh, I entirely agree there. I guess what I meant was, that whether she had triumphed over Yodoshi or not, and whether she had happened to end up alive or not, wasn't what mattered so far as her karma went. All she had to do was try her best. What Big K said. Her best happened to include staying dead to save those souls. In other words, her intentions were what mattered, rather than the results. (The results, of course, did matter to a lot of other people, including the 40,000 souls, no question). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:34:54 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:37, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/3/2003 5:55:19 PM Central Daylight Time, > > cande@sunlink.net writes: > > I have to point out that in Fates Xena in that episode > > is not the Xena of the series. It is a Xena who hasn't had to survive > > crucifixion, limping across Asia, meeting Lao Ma, or Alti, or Odin. This > > is a woman who actually has had a rather comfortable life despite being a > > warrior. In all probability Gabrielle probably had more of struggle with > > life than Xena did. > > You make a very interesting point. The irony of KT's dislike of this > wimp-ering Xena is that she might not have been so taken with Gabs and the > play, were it not for the unconscious connection to stoic Xena's life. > Yes, this Xena was more innocent in her way, more "open," but I didn't get > the impression she was especially "deep" (certainly not to the point of > enjoying most artists of the day). She might've seen the play as > enterntaining "fluff" and Gabs as a source of novelty. > > Real-time X&G had several years to develop the bond between them. They'd > been thru hell and high water together. Xena had learned the value of > "true" love because of her past, as well as her relationship with Gabs. > Initially, I didn't believe the "Gods, who is that woman!" looks between > them, when they first see each other in Fates. The insta-soulmates thing > didn't ring true, especially between the shallower versions we got in Bard > By The Sea and Caesar's Empress. But when I think of it as based on what > lay unknown beneath, it makes sense. The "connection" was between the real > X&G, not the alternate ones we saw on the surface. D'uh. > > -- Ife Umm, I have to disagree. In this (WFC) timeline, these *were* the real X&G, the others never existed. (It's quite unlike the 'alternate universe' in Stranger in a Strange World where the inhabitants of the two universes were conjugates of each other). Therefore, there were no other X&G's to have any connection, and therefore the insta-soulmates thing must stand or fall by itself. I think it falls. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:37:31 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> (fwd) On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 09:49, KTL wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:09:01 -0800 (AKDT) > From: KTL > To: xenaverse@mlists.com > Subject: <> > > > Spoiler space for When Fates Collide > What's this, KT? Re-runs? ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 17:22:36 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> (fwd) On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 09:49, KTL wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:09:01 -0800 (AKDT) > From: KTL > To: xenaverse@mlists.com > Subject: <> > > > Spoiler space for When Fates Collide > > > B > A > N > G > ! > C > R > A > S > H > ! > B > O > O > M > ! > Y > U > C > K > ! > > SPOILERS FOR When Fates Collide, Ides of March, Destiny, Sacrifice II > > Includes mentions of many eps from all seasons INCLUDING season six, > > > > > > The beginning of Fates had so much promise. At first I was SUPER excited > to see Caesar and Alti and a different Xena. What a great premise. And > then...it just lapsed into typical bad fanfic slop, evaporated into banal > schmoopiness and ended with gleefully wreaking some major damage on the > life and dignity of the hero. You didn't care for the ep, huh? ;) > Season six is holding up the grand tradition of seasons four and five in > being erratic and uneven in terms of the quality of the eps. But six may > be the most evenly uneven season we've ever had. We get retro, bland > bad-fanfic type of eps punctuated with XWP's hallmark style of wildly > original, boldly outside the box eps. The season literally limps along > like a wooden legged pirate between fresh, witty and complex > multi-layered-filled-with-series-history-offerings like You Are There and > The Ring Trilogy, interspersed with ho-hum stuff like Dangerous Prey, Path > of Vengeance and Helicon. One week we have characters like Caligula, > Lucifer and Beowulf and another week we have the dweeby desert boy, > warlord of the week Prince Morloch and insipid ineffective girly > squealing Amazons. We stagger between stories that simper of Barbara > Cartland and stories that blast of John Walters. Oh I *love* your literary style, KT. You should be writing episodes! :) > Alti had never realized her powers before? She had never grabbed somebody > (all of whom presumably existed in both worlds as they did in the > Sovereign shadow world on Herc) and hit upon any "real" memories before? Now that was a moment I did rather like. That Alti was as surprised as Xena was to see some of that stuff. I found it kinda refreshing that Alti could be surprised - and actually admit it to Xena. > And once again we have Gabrielle acting like Xena, taking matters into her > own hands and creating changes that are literally earth shattering. > Gabrielle has always made decisions for herself but seldom makes decisions > that affect others besides Xena. (Except in Helicon and we see where that > led us) ROTFL! KT, you're baaaad. :) > Would Gabrielle really have torched that loom without agonizing over > changing everything that had happened for all the other people in it? If > all the people exist in both worlds, for some of them, that world has to > be a BETTER place. A place where perhaps THEY are not slaves or widows or > murderers or dead. Indeed, how did Gabrielle know that she wasn't > condemning all of them to total oblivion for her own selfish purposes? At that point, she didn't care. I suppose she was as smitten by sudden savvy-destroying love-at-first-sight as Xena was. > And she won't sleep with her spouse. When has Xena ever turned down a > good roll in the hay? (Other than Ares heh.) Are we to believe that > becoming a warlord was what made her sexual and sensual? I don't think > so. That was part of her makeup, part of who she was. That's another > lack--there's no sensuality in her, no sense of joy of love in her. Just > a moony longing. Euuuuwww. I'm disliking this one more and more and > more. Besides, that was, at the very least, bad tactics. If she wanted Caesar to notice that there was something going on with this playwright that she kept exchanging meaningful glances with, she was going the right way to alert his suspicions. Also very bad tactics was not letting Caesar kill Alti right then and there, after Alti had attacked her. A sudden attack of the James Bond Villain Syndrome - "No Mister Bond, I'm not going to kill you right now, I'm going to leave you in this fiendish trap so you have every chance to escape and come after me again". > > The "It needed a fight" line was wildly amusing to me since the real > Fallen Angel was so loaded with super spectacular, special effects laden, > LOOOOONG fight scenes. They apparently were missing in this version of > it. No wonder Gabrielle could only make it as a bard in this oh so caring > and nurturing world where only Caesar and Alti are vicious. Oh, I did like that line though. Nice external reference to Rob's known preferences. > Xena returned to classic-any-time any-place-any-lifetime Xena when she > sacrificed herself for Gabrielle. The cell scene between them was very > reminiscent of IOM, but just not as good. WHY try to reprise a scene that > is surely a masterpiece? Jeez, guys > > And I gotta admit that on the cross, when Xena "Marilyn Monroed" our her > breathy, "I LOVE you Gabrielle", my honey and I both burst out > laughing--it was just too over the top. > > A bud of mine on another list said that though she loved this episode, she > literally turned the TV off at that moment, because it hit 100 on her > cringe-o-meter. Me too. Howcome the *only* crucifixion they got right was in Destiny? Ides was doing brilliantly till Disneyland struck in the last ten seconds of the ep. This one in WFC was really gritty - until Love struck - yeah, that's just exactly what doesn't go through the mind of someone like Xena about to be crucified, I think. I guess Monty Python were equally incongruous with "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life" but then they _wanted_ to get a laugh. > The concept of the soulmates being together forever has been well > presented in Between the Lines, Clones and Deja vu. It's canon. BUT in > those eps, it wasn't the whole story-it was the immutable backdrop to the > real story that week. This ep made it the whole story rather than the > framework. And I feel frittered away yet another of the ever dwindling > hours of XWP. > > My honey who is not on line and so "misses" a lot (grin) said that this ep > seemed to be written by someone outside looking in. That the characters > were not quite right-not the way Xena and Gabrielle would be in any > manifestation or situation. > > And I agree with that. It's a PURE schmaltzy bad fanfic take. I don't > think Fugate writes fanfic and I believe I read in the official mag that > she's not online or wasn't on line when she was tapped to write this one. > I think she has a good future in fanfic. Now from *some* fans, that line would be a compliment. 8-) Okay, so I didn't hate it as much as you did. Much of it I found quite watchable. Mostly because, I think, I'm a sucker for these little oblique 'insider' references to other eps or past history (though Clones did that better); and as always LL and Claire were very good. And I also have a very well-developed 'subtext-ignore' mechanism (or it should probably rather be 'schmaltz-ignore') that can cope with almost anything up to expressions of undying love - but I will admit, that moment on the cross was way beyond its limits. ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #295 **************************************