From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #294 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, October 5 2003 Volume 03 : Number 294 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] <> (fwd) [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye Color change [KTL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 02:37:41 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak In a message dated 10/3/2003 5:55:19 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > I have to point out that in Fates Xena in that episode > is not the Xena of the series. It is a Xena who hasn't had to survive > crucifixion, limping across Asia, meeting Lao Ma, or Alti, or Odin. This is > a woman who actually has had a rather comfortable life despite being a > warrior. In all probability Gabrielle probably had more of struggle with > life than Xena did. You make a very interesting point. The irony of KT's dislike of this wimp-ering Xena is that she might not have been so taken with Gabs and the play, were it not for the unconscious connection to stoic Xena's life. Yes, this Xena was more innocent in her way, more "open," but I didn't get the impression she was especially "deep" (certainly not to the point of enjoying most artists of the day). She might've seen the play as enterntaining "fluff" and Gabs as a source of novelty. Real-time X&G had several years to develop the bond between them. They'd been thru hell and high water together. Xena had learned the value of "true" love because of her past, as well as her relationship with Gabs. Initially, I didn't believe the "Gods, who is that woman!" looks between them, when they first see each other in Fates. The insta-soulmates thing didn't ring true, especially between the shallower versions we got in Bard By The Sea and Caesar's Empress. But when I think of it as based on what lay unknown beneath, it makes sense. The "connection" was between the real X&G, not the alternate ones we saw on the surface. D'uh. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 02:37:44 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak In a message dated 10/3/2003 3:13:20 PM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Again, I mainly agree with this. I don't know if I'd call Gabrielle > "essential" but I suspect Xena probably would. I think Xena would have > restored her soul by herself eventually, but her understanding of > Gabrielle and her respect for what she so unfalteringly stood for made > Xena's journey back to goodness easier and faster than it would have been > without her. > > Gabrielle was Xena's lodestone, her moral compass, her north star in > finding her way back to her humanity. Xena expresses this all the > time--not only by actions but in words also. > I read a comment by Lucy that led me to believe Gabrielle was "essential" for a much simpler reason -- someone positive to be with every day. I picture Xena alone at her campsite reliving her past crimes, beating herself up, gearing up for another thankless day of "work." Fighting solo, maybe having a drink with some good guys she ran into, brushing off any praise, riding off to find another fight. It's a pretty bleak view without Gabrielle's optimism, upbeat voice and insistent "atta girls." There's very little impetus for introspection or opening one's heart, when wearing armor and a mask is the instinctive choice. Everyone's spirit needs replenishing sometimes, especially carrying Xena's baggage. Where else would she have gotten that from? Sensitive chats with Herc? Praying to her dead brother? An inspirational card from Cyrene? Scrolls on How To Be Good To Yourself? After however many weeks or months between leaving Herc and running into Gabs, Xena's already admitting it's hard being alone. Whatever self-motivation and goodness she possessed before Gabs, I think it was "essential" having someone to share her triumphs with, articulate their value, and escape with sometimes in childish fun. "You gave my life joy and meaning," she tells Gabs in Sacrifice. Everything else was icing. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 12:39:59 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak > Yes I agree with this. I also think that Gabrielle in many ways was a test > for Xena. She pushed Xena to re-examine may of the ways she reacted to > people. I think we see that in the rift arc. Xena learns forgiveness and > tolerance because of her relationship with Gabrielle. The first time she > forgives someone who has betrayed her and learns that people often > disappoint us but that doesn't mean that we stop loving them or that they > stop loving them. The first time she forgives someone who has betrayed her was in Sins Of The Past when she comes to Cyrene's tavern, sword in hand, asking for her mother's forgiveness for what Xena's behavior has done to her life. Cyrene's reply is: "Go away, Xena. This is not your town anymore. We are not your people. I am not your mother." Pretty devastating and exactly what Draco predicted. Later when Xena tries to tell her mother she's come back to spend the rest of her life trying to wipe away the shame and sorrow she's brought upon Cyrene, Cyrene's response is, "I wish I could believe you." Moments later, the crowd rushes in saying that her army has started the attack. Xena denies it is her army but Cyrene immediately assumes she is lying. She turns away from Xena and hands her over to the crowd, saying, "Do with her what you will". Even after this far more direct betrayal, at the end of the episode, Xena forgivess her mother turning against her once again. And even further, again begs for Cyrene's forgiveness. This time she gets it. Speaking of the rift arc, I've written many times before that the Furies ep set up the rift arc. By showing that vengeance for a family member's death is absolutely required in the Greek religious system. So even if you have to kill your mother, you must do so. Which of course then sets you up to be killed "back" by other relatives. The story frames Xena's dilemma as Orestes' dilemma--his mother killed his father, he refused to kill his mother and thus avenge his father and so the Furies made him mad. And then when he kills his mother the Furies continue to drive him insane for having killed his mother. Of course, Xena wriggles out of this one by convincing the Furies that Ares is her father. Okay, a few episodes later we start the rift arc. Steve Sears has said in interviews that Solon created Illusia to bring his mother and Gabrielle back together again, to repair the rift. Which means of course that Solon has no animus towards Gabrielle for her part in his death. He realizes she was used by Dahok and Hope, that she was just a pawn for them to get to Xena. And he harbors no grudge towards Gabrielle for this. He forgives her. And doesn't want to see her dead. I believe that when Xena sees Solon in Illusia and when Gabrielle says, "It was him" (the meaning of which is not explained in the script but is explained by Steve's interview) Xena is relieved of her need for vengeance. She understands that Solon not only doesn't require hatred and violence in return for the viciousness he suffered at the hands of Hope, but that he rejects the whole concept of required vengeance against unwitting accomplices. Xena in turn will not dishonor him but will accept his efforts on her behalf. And will turn away from her dark side once again. And Xena once again sashays away from having to obey the mores and practices of that old Greek religion. (Or in this case, swims away.) I think Xena watches Gabrielle struggle with her own dark > impulses and discovers something about herself by watching Gabrielle deal > with them. Xena for once is in a relationship where she wants to understand > another person's pain and help that person overcome their pain. Xena grows > because of this. > > I would say that Xena has always had this same relationship with Solon, way before she had it with Gabrielle. Xena tries so hard to mitigate Solon's pain at having lost his mother. I can't hardly watch any of their scenes together--she is just so vulnerable before him. Because of her awareness of why he's suffering this way. And she's suffering also, from the other side of this terrible separation. From "Orphan of War": Kaleipus: For nine years, Solon has been my son. I love him more than my very life. And the thought of losing him-- You can't possibly know what that feels like." Xena: "Do you know what it's like to be a mother without her child?" Xena and Solon's relationship has always been heartbreaking to me. And THEN when we see him all cocooned up in God-Fearing Child, willing to live in Limbo just so he can watch old Xena reruns--GODS! That hurts! (And I'm afraid that may be the fate of many of us.) > > > > Xena never got tamed. Except of course in the excreable Fates Colliding > > (or as md so deliciously calls it, "Farts Colluding") where love makes > > Xena a whingeing, whining, whimpering, beaten fool, giving in to her > > enemies, losing all her smarts about people and their motives and not > > being capable of coming up with any strategic schemes to save the day AND > > the fair young maiden. (SPIT) > > Now. now I don't want you to hold back your feelings any. How do you really > feel about WFC? (g) I have to point out that in Fates Xena in that episode > is not the Xena of the series. It is a Xena who hasn't had to survive > crucifixion, limping across Asia, meeting Lao Ma, or Alti, or Odin. No but it is the woman who in her late teens led an army against the warlord who threatened her town, who was a village-burning pirate, who had already started making a name for herself as someone to be feared. That's the main fault of Farts to me--that it starts too late in Xena's life. She was already a person who never gave up, who was a warrior, who made sure her enemies didn't get the best of her. THAT woman already would never have given up so easily to betrayal. Oh hell, I've been avoiding talking about Fates -- I'd much rather talk about FIN and the Debt. BUT okay--however--I will NOT watch that piece of limping crap again--I'll just send out my original post about it. I SAW you teasing me to jump in with a fates debate at the end of your review of FIN2. After thinking about FIN, I just couldn't lower myself to think about Fates. I'm going to snip the rest--it's stuff that other people have brought up. I believe I have all my replies to these arguments already, so it's not like I'll have to actually WATCH the darn thing to argue about it. I'll get back to these later, okay? This is a pretty massive post as it is. > I can agree that Xena is always untamed. She is like some great predatory > cat elegant and dangerous who has chosen a companion with whom she can > pretend to be tamed. Now see, I think this disses Gabrielle. There is nothing in Gabrielle's character that would make me believe that she wants to live her life with a tamed, quiet, tasteful, peaceful companion. If she did, she'da stayed with Perdicus. Instead of begging Xena to get her away from the man she's supposed to marry because he's "dull and stupid". This is something else that some fanfic gets so wrong. That Gabrielle would want to settle down in one spot and just make babies with Xena. I of course only noticed that some stories have Xena willing and happy to do this also. But when I complained about this to a bud of mine, she brought up what a diservice this was to Gabrielle's character too. Hey, happy Saturday... The long-winded KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 12:49:40 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:09:01 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL To: xenaverse@mlists.com Subject: <> Spoiler space for When Fates Collide B A N G ! C R A S H ! B O O M ! Y U C K ! SPOILERS FOR When Fates Collide, Ides of March, Destiny, Sacrifice II Includes mentions of many eps from all seasons INCLUDING season six, The beginning of Fates had so much promise. At first I was SUPER excited to see Caesar and Alti and a different Xena. What a great premise. And then...it just lapsed into typical bad fanfic slop, evaporated into banal schmoopiness and ended with gleefully wreaking some major damage on the life and dignity of the hero. Season six is holding up the grand tradition of seasons four and five in being erratic and uneven in terms of the quality of the eps. But six may be the most evenly uneven season we've ever had. We get retro, bland bad-fanfic type of eps punctuated with XWP's hallmark style of wildly original, boldly outside the box eps. The season literally limps along like a wooden legged pirate between fresh, witty and complex multi-layered-filled-with-series-history-offerings like You Are There and The Ring Trilogy, interspersed with ho-hum stuff like Dangerous Prey, Path of Vengeance and Helicon. One week we have characters like Caligula, Lucifer and Beowulf and another week we have the dweeby desert boy, warlord of the week Prince Morloch and insipid ineffective girly squealing Amazons. We stagger between stories that simper of Barbara Cartland and stories that blast of John Walters. PacRen has spent half this season reprising some of its best work. Unfortunately, even when they are offering an homage to their own work, they STILL can't make an homage work. They have repeated classic themes from all seasons with eps that are essentially repeats of some of their finest work, but not so well done nor so striking this time around due to the complacent familiarity and the lack of a certain surprise ooomph that I miss very much. Fates is a story remix of Between the Lines, the Xena Scrolls, and Deja vu with some of the plot structure of Remember Nothing thrown in. And images and repeated scenes from Ides of March but unfortunately not done nearly so well as that one was. The cell scene here was just a poor, pale imitation of the great cell scene from that ep. The oddest thing was how this ep kept referring back to some great eps, like the Way, BTL, IOM. Dumb move to remind us how good stories like these can be when the ep they're showcased in is as bad as this one is. This ep also has antecedents in numerous sci-fi and mainstream stories I've read in the past with the exact same premise-that if even if you do apparently manage to change things you cannot really change your destiny. The end result is always the same. So chaining up the fates (here, hold this, would ya, honey? And try to ACT as if these weinie chains are holding you back) doesn't do a damn thing to change the final outcome. When the promise of this story faded out into just another trite, emotionally overblown hurt and comfort bad fan fic story, I lost interest. And when I lose interest in the story, I begin to notice other things. Like the fact that this one had plot holes big enough to hold a Pasadena convention in. Of course many eps do. But without the panache of a Tapert/Stewart script I just couldn't slide over the inconsistencies, coincidences and downright "BOING-that's odd!" bits without consciously noticing them on the first go round. For example, there has never been any indication in the real timeline that Xena ever wanted to be a benign ruler. She was originally motivated to become a warrior for defense of her homeland. When that went bad, she was "on the lam" and doing petty piracy to sustain herself when she met Caesar. But in this ep we are asked to believe that getting Caesar to be her boyfriend was a catalyst for Xena to become a benevolent ruler. (And by the way, just exactly what made Xena such a good ruler? What did she do to gain the love of the troops and the people?) Being married to Caesar has apparently made Xena a happy-go-lucky grrl. Watch her in the beginning when she comes in and plays around with him. This Xena is a sunny chick, filled with sunshine and smiles as she bounds happily up to her husband, Caesar. A Caesar who in this world, from the time of the not done Destiny crucifixion scene on must have known what his other reality was and yet didn't act on it until this moment? Was able to not kill Brutus for so many years? Didn't kill Xena the minute he could but instead stood by and watched her love and admiration from their subjects far overwhelm his own? Oh I think not. So then, how did such an impatient and egotistical megalomaniac as Caesar manage to wait this long to extract his revenge? Oh, so that Gabrielle could play a part in this ep. Of course. Alti had never realized her powers before? She had never grabbed somebody (all of whom presumably existed in both worlds as they did in the Sovereign shadow world on Herc) and hit upon any "real" memories before? And once again we have Gabrielle acting like Xena, taking matters into her own hands and creating changes that are literally earth shattering. Gabrielle has always made decisions for herself but seldom makes decisions that affect others besides Xena. (Except in Helicon and we see where that led us) Even when she and Hope took that little spin into the pit in Sacrifice II, it didn't change a thing because Hope returned to the world. (Well, so far as we know up to here, it didn't change a thing.) Would Gabrielle really have torched that loom without agonizing over changing everything that had happened for all the other people in it? If all the people exist in both worlds, for some of them, that world has to be a BETTER place. A place where perhaps THEY are not slaves or widows or murderers or dead. Indeed, how did Gabrielle know that she wasn't condemning all of them to total oblivion for her own selfish purposes? Why is Gabrielle in this world not the lion hearted brave beyond her capabilities righteous defender of everybody that she was in "our" Xena world? What happened to her? Right from the start of the real timeline she was like that, so meeting Xena had not given her that blazing courage. Where did it go? Why is she so...ineffective and moony? Blech. THIS Gabrielle is even less likely to torch the world than "our" Gabrielle is. MUCH less likely to have the oomph and initiative do so. (Of course, she had just almost been crucified, so that could account for some of her sudden fire.) And of course the Greater Good issue is not at play here because this Gabrielle never met Xena and so never realized that concept. I couldn't find much of Xena in Xena. There were things she did that sure were not her. Since the change only came in at the time of Destiny, that woman still had Xena's childhood and upbringing as part of her character. So she wasn't totally a clean slate inserted into this world. But this character was presented as if she was. Yet more of the total illogical nonsense of this ep. The first time we see Xena is heart stoppingly kewl. I loved how she rode in, bounded off the horse and presented herself, the classic smart-assed show off that she is. And then suddenly she's sniffing flowers and enjoying Harlequin Romance plays? Oh PUH-LEASE. (And just as an aside, why the hell did she come in kicking her own men and knocking them down? No wonder they turned on her so quickly at the end.) And...NICE leathers! And she won't sleep with her spouse. When has Xena ever turned down a good roll in the hay? (Other than Ares heh.) Are we to believe that becoming a warlord was what made her sexual and sensual? I don't think so. That was part of her makeup, part of who she was. That's another lack--there's no sensuality in her, no sense of joy of love in her. Just a moony longing. Euuuuwww. I'm disliking this one more and more and more. The "It needed a fight" line was wildly amusing to me since the real Fallen Angel was so loaded with super spectacular, special effects laden, LOOOOONG fight scenes. They apparently were missing in this version of it. No wonder Gabrielle could only make it as a bard in this oh so caring and nurturing world where only Caesar and Alti are vicious. Xena returned to classic-any-time any-place-any-lifetime Xena when she sacrificed herself for Gabrielle. The cell scene between them was very reminiscent of IOM, but just not as good. WHY try to reprise a scene that is surely a masterpiece? Jeez, guys And I gotta admit that on the cross, when Xena "Marilyn Monroed" our her breathy, "I LOVE you Gabrielle", my honey and I both burst out laughing--it was just too over the top. A bud of mine on another list said that though she loved this episode, she literally turned the TV off at that moment, because it hit 100 on her cringe-o-meter. On that same list, another poster said that she feels that all the mushy X & G stuff of this season is a major mistake on PacRen's part. That for her, when they get all misty-eyed and profess their love every episode, it just fritters away the emotional punch expressing that emotion should have. There is that, but there is also the fact that this ep is just not nearly so well done as many of the earlier ones were which showed the love between the two characters without sacrificing a good story to do so. I just don't enjoy romance stories where the whole story is merely that the characters love each other, which I what I saw Fates devolve into. That's just not enough story for me. I like the love to be present but I'm just not that interested in it as the whole focus of an ep. I like a TOUGH Xena who has love in her heart, the Xena of the good eps and scenes which present far more complex ideas than just "These two people love each other. That's all folks!" I prefer the love to be part of the story, illuminating the relationship we've seen over the years. I thought this was really well presented in Abyss, with its emotionally wrenching cave scene showing how much Xena hurt over having hurt someone she loved so much. The Ring Trilogy is another excellent example of the way to showcase the love between these characters without using them as puppets by dismissing or replacing elements of their personality that we all know so well. Again, my favorite eps this year have been the ones that continue the redemption/back story thread. HOD, God You Know, The Ring Trilogy for example. My least favorite have been the ones that have strayed from keeping that main story line as their focus. The concept of the soulmates being together forever has been well presented in Between the Lines, Clones and Deja vu. It's canon. BUT in those eps, it wasn't the whole story-it was the immutable backdrop to the real story that week. This ep made it the whole story rather than the framework. And I feel frittered away yet another of the ever dwindling hours of XWP. My honey who is not on line and so "misses" a lot (grin) said that this ep seemed to be written by someone outside looking in. That the characters were not quite right-not the way Xena and Gabrielle would be in any manifestation or situation. And I agree with that. It's a PURE schmaltzy bad fanfic take. I don't think Fugate writes fanfic and I believe I read in the official mag that she's not online or wasn't on line when she was tapped to write this one. I think she has a good future in fanfic. I rewatched it again last night, to make sure I hadn't made any blatant errors in this post. And I disliked it FAR more on second viewing. My gut reaction to reaching for the "seen this before, show's done it much better before" delete key was even stronger this time. After about 20 minute or so, I could barely stand to continue to watch it, it was so banal and boring. The moonlit yearning glances on the balcony was hysterically overwrought and funny and what was up with the playing peek-a-boo in the shadows? Oh man! And then it got worse. Far worse. The gratuitous violence in this ep is horrific. Xena gets shot with arrows, gets dragged behind a horse, (that's three times now-does she get a charm? Can't you just see a little horsie and dragee on her charm bracelet?) and is crucified--by the order of her spouse. I HATED seeing Xena being in the power of two of her greatest enemies, subjected to humiliation, pain and agony. Ooooo, let's watch the bad girl's enemies take great pleasure at seeing her tortured, degraded and killed, being laughed at by Alti as she's in extremis, having her husband turn his back on her also laughing at her as he goes off to f*ck the woman who hates Xena in every timeline and in every world. This was VERY hard to watch, never mind enjoy. I just don't need to watch an ep that rips Xena's life and dignity to shreds. I think I will join with two of my buds who can't bear to watch this one again. One poster on another list called it "When Fishsticks Collide" and mentioned that it's like an episode of the Sopranos. VERY apt analogy, I thought. KT Help me, season six has turned me into a Fatuous Fury Fan and I can't shut up ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:59:04 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak - ----- Original Message ----- From: "KTL" > > > Xena and Solon's relationship has always been heartbreaking to me. And > THEN when we see him all cocooned up in God-Fearing Child, willing to live > in Limbo just so he can watch old Xena reruns--GODS! That hurts! (And I'm > afraid that may be the fate of many of us.) > The relationship between Solon and Xena is heartbreaking. Solon is such a good soul - he is brave and kind and yes forgiving. I think in a way Solon muct have terrified Xena. She saw all his good qualities and I think she feared that in some way she would destroy that. That's why she just couldn't tell him the truth in Orphan. Then finally when she gets the chance to make a life with him it is shattered by Hope. The ironic thing of course is the Gabrielle and Xena are in exactly the same position each is trying to re-establish a relationship with children they abandoned for the child's own good. It is odd that the two children are polar opposites isn't it. Hope all darkness and twisted love (i think in her own odd way she loves Gabrielle) and Solon all light and unselfish love. I however always found it sad that Solon even in Elysia will still be always expecting his mother to come to him any minute. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:59:58 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: Xena's wild streak KTL wrote > > > Now see, I think this disses Gabrielle. There is nothing in Gabrielle's > character that would make me believe that she wants to live her life with > a tamed, quiet, tasteful, peaceful companion. If she did, she'da stayed > with Perdicus. Instead of begging Xena to get her away from the man she's > supposed to marry because he's "dull and stupid". You know your are right. Gabrielle does love Xena for her wild streak and that is certainly what attracts her. She is also as footloose as Xena. It's Gabrielle that wants to go trapsing off to India, isn't it? About the only time she seems to consider settling down is in that one Amazon epsiode where she gets painted blue. Of course it doesn't last long does it. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 17:29:18 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye Color change > I have posted this various times over my career as a Xena phreak, but because > it has a personal connection with me, I'll rehash an old favorite point of > mine, > > My mother had blonde hair and blue eyes until puberty. She had black > hairand brown eyes all the years I knew her. Every time I see an old photo Icannot > identify my own mother. It does happen. That's astounding! You SURE it's her? I mean I'm being facetious, but I'm just blown away by this. > > When I first wrote these comments back when the Callisto's Eyes controversy > raged in 1998, I found an article in an archive of the journal of the AMA. > Alas, the link is now dead but here is the part I saved from that article: > > "Results: Among whites (n=1359), the eye color of 3.8% to 8.6% of the sample > twins became 2 U or more darker or 2 U or more lighter during 3- to > 9-yearintervals between 6 years of age and adulthood (>18 years, <24 years).Among > identical (monozygotic) twin pairs, there was a high degree of concordance in eye > color (r=0.98 [P<.001]), while in fraternal (dizygotic) twin pairs, the > concordance was less pronounced (r=0.49) and decreased with age (r=0.07). Among the > sample of the mothers of twins, 9% had irides that lightened by 2 U or more > during the follow-up period. " But it says "darker" or Lighter, not a different color. How are ya!? KT > > It would not be impossible at all for Callisto's eyes to change from blue to > brown. > > CleanthesThe pith o' sense, and pride o' worth,Are higher rank than 'a that. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 17:32:04 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Eye Color change Whoops! Sorry--I'm deleting old messages and meant for this to just go to Cleanthes... KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #294 **************************************