From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #293 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, October 4 2003 Volume 03 : Number 293 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Kathryn Morris' new show [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] another XENA alumni [cjlnh@webtv.net (Cheryl LaScola)] [chakram-refugees] Variety on Kathryn Morris [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:28:01 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Kathryn Morris' new show In a message dated 10/3/03 5:45:41 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, mirrordrum wrote: > i haven't seen this amongst my posts. for those who're interested, the naj is > starring in a new CBS show this fall. another in the spate of CSI-type cop > shows with doughty women on the case. The naj? I LIKE that! > > COLD CASE stars Kathryn Morris ("Minority Report") in a drama about Lilly > Rush, the lone female detective in the Philadelphia homicide squad who finds > her calling when she's assigned to "cold cases," crimes that have never been > solved. >> Yes, I caught Cold Case because of Morris. At one point, a colleague says something like, "You're a crusader, aren't you?" I definitely wondered if that was a nod to Xena fans whom one might logically think would check out Cold Case. The other interesting aspect was how Lilly, like Najara, isn't what she seems. She actually uses a bit of duplicity to get her subjects to talk to her, often by pretending to be like them in some way. Once again, Morris needs to lure viewers into sympathizing with her, despite questionable tactics. So far she seems to be pulling that off. I wonder if her XWP stint helped convince the producers of that. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:28:05 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 In a message dated 10/3/03 5:27:28 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << I still say what she did to Lao Tzu says something about Lao Ma. Her ambition, her arrogance, her desire to wield power. Through tricking the kingdom about the status of its king and through selecting Xena to be her enforcer. Holding him captive in this was seems to me that his body literally personifies her dark side. >> Ah, okay. I see what you mean now. I agree Lao Tzu represented the kind of darkness Lao Ma herself was capable of, both in himself and in what she did to him. I saw it as more "rational," controlled, formal. I think Xena represented the kind of darkness Lao Ma couldn't express -- emotional, untamed, personal in a way that defied structure or the "usual" way of going about things. I guess I meant Xena personified the kind of darkness Lao Ma wished she could tap into, but was prevented from doing so by her very need (and inability) to control it, both within herself (to use her powers successfully) and young Xena. << I think at the beginning she was using Xena the same as so many people had for her own purposes. And yeah, she always thought she was wiser than Xena was in terms of people and their motivations. Which of course only showed how naive she was and how she had absolutely no idea of the life that Xena had led. >> I guess I'm reacting to "use" in the negative or impersonal sense I'm getting from what you say. As to Gabrielle, I just don't see her desire to travel with Xena as nearly on par with what Caesar, Alti, Lao Ma, etc. had in mind. Initially, all she wanted to do was escape Poteidaia, to do what Xena did, to learn from Xena. I don't see that she needed Xena as an instrument for some plot or grand plan. She soon learns that Xena feels alone and could "use" (needed) a friend, someone who would hopefully support Xena in her quest to do good. Xena expected that from Gabs, and that's what the Warrior got, whether it was convenient at the time or not. Sometimes Gabs' naivete enabled her to see potential in people or situations that Xena didn't, which Xena's experience in fact blinded her to. Xena trusted Gabs' unblemished (and usually unselfish) perspective. And Gabs was sometimes right -- as she was with Petracles, the Horde and even Xena herself (as when she whacked Xena with the pitchfork). I don't think either the series or Xena herself could've been as multidimensional without having the perspective of someone who believed there was a world beyond the violent one Xena lived in. As to Xena, "used" suggests to me that Xena was herself naive or helpless to the point where she was forced to do something she didn't have a hand in making possible. Even as young Xena, she did what she wanted. She put herself in the position to be used for others' purposes because of her own curiosity, arrogance, rage and/or greed. Maybe her later sense of honor made her respond to Gabrielle's "I saved your life," but I didn't get the impression that's why she let Gabrielle travel with her. > > > Again, I saw that subservience as superficial and self-serving -- quite > > characteristic of Delinquent Xena. She knows there'll be some payoff. > > I didn't see it that way at all. She IS subservient to Lao Ma. She's > willing to be the Warrior Princess to Lao Ma's Queen. And seems to feel > proud that Lao Ma has chosen her to be so..>> > > > I guess I saw young Xena as having different forms of "subservience," > depending on the mentor at the time. Borias and Alti liked Xena's boldness. Only > Lao Ma required the kind of restraint and humility we saw, as part of the test > Xena had to pass before moving on to higher studies. Xena was no fool. She > knew she needed to stay in Lao Ma's good graces if she wanted to learn about Lao > Ma's powers. She also saw that there was some connection between those > powers and Lao Ma's lectures about "emptying" one's self. > > I'm not denying the special bond between them. She admired Lao Ma in a way > she didn't her other "teachers." I'm simply saying that I didn't find the > subservience all that notable, except as an indication that Xena would do whatever > it took to learn what she wanted. She always did whatever it took to learn what she wanted. But only with Lao Ma did she make herself a servant along with being a student. She never let anybody else pick out girly clothes for her. (Well, except for that one time in Chariots of War when she wore the guy's wife's dress at his request. But that only lasted a few hours...) I mean, surely she could have just hidden if Ming Tzu came along. There had to be guard type clothes she could have worn which would have helped disguise her. She never scurried along behind anybody like a scampering puppy. And she never ever let anybody laugh at her without getting really ticked off. Except for Lao Ma. Totally different attitude towards Lao Ma than torwards anybody else. >. Again, I saw Xena as puppy-doggish with Alti. I even saw a little of it with Caesar. In both cases, she exhibited childlike vulnerability that they played on -- e.g., romance and friendship. My only point is that Lao Ma required a kind of subservience that the others did not, which was fundamental to the knowledge (powers) she offered Xena. I do believe Xena was intrigued by Lao Ma's hidden strengths, as well as by the fact that Lao Ma saved and was initially teaching and healing her with no apparent strings attached -- until Xena gets her legs back and Lao Ma literally has to reign Xena in with that pretty piece of cloth. It's interesting to me that Xena's "subservience" takes on a different tone, once she has her physical abilities back and discovers there are indeed strings attached. First, she must "play nice" with Borias. Then she learns she's to be Lao Ma's Warrior Princess, expected to form an alliance with the man who hunted her like the dogs he set upon her. Prior to that, her subservience served her own needs, regardless of her affection for Lao Ma. It had an eager or rebellious quality dependant on how "right" it seemed to her own "studies." Afterwards, it takes on a cunning quality. She uses it for something she can finally sink her teeth in, to fool and gain advantage. And why not? She's discovered the ultimate goal of Lao Ma's lessons isn't so different from what she's used to after all. In the dice game, she treats Lao Ma as inconsequential -- someone who's chosen not to play the game, so no longer has anything to say about the rules. Whatever genuine affection lay beneath her subservience to Lao Ma, it certainly wasn't strong enough not to vanish completely, once it comes down to her way vs. Lao Ma's. She reverts back to the Xena who sees nothing wrong with killing the child of someone she's supposed to love, admire and obey. Again, I'm not saying the relationship with Lao Ma wasn't "special" in its superficial trappings. Retrospectively, it was also "special" in deeper ways that Xena didn't originally appreciate. But at the time, the "subservience" I saw exhibited was abandoned as soon as Xena believed its continuation might serve Lao Ma's purposes more than her own. Reformed Xena obviously regrets her earlier shallowness. I believe that shallowness extended to her subservient attitude toward Lao Ma. > < > what she believes Lao Ma wants -- what Lao Ma herself seems to use -- a > false > > subservience that hides what's underneath. Remember all Lao Ma's talk > about > > being an "insignificant wife"? > > > I would say that when Xena's showing false subservience, she let's us know > it. As when she's crying to Odin because he doesn't trust her. The look > over his shoulder tells us she's scamming. >> I don't mean that Xena's subservience was consciously "false" in that way. I'm not sure she knew better. I do believe she was trying as best she knew how - -- both to learn and because she had a certain amount of trust in Lao Ma's motives. But Lao Ma wasn't exactly setting a "pure" example of subservience, devoid of mixed messages. Her lessons involved duplicity and political gain. IOW, I don't see her as the role model who could show Xena a subservience not based on ulterior purpose. > Yep, she has a similar look when she's serving Papa and Baby Ming, and later > when she suggests the dice game. I didn't see her showing particular > subservience to Lao Ma herself (which she said she was willing to do). I'm mainly > talking about the false subservience she showed to others as part of Lao Ma's > tests. Yes and when it's false it's obvious. That's what I'm saying. Xena never indicated that acquiesing to Lao Ma's classes, tests, lectures, requests was ever somethign Xena only pretended to do. She DID them, truthfully, faithfully and willingly.>> Agreed. As she no doubt did with Alti or Cyane. Her thirst for knowledge was definitely genuine, bottomless and eclectic. That's different than acquiesing to someone for its own sake, simply because of her feelings for the person. If that were the case, why didn't she continue to serve Lao Ma? << Lao Ma talks about how easy it is for Xena to want to serve her. Because it's "easy to serve one you love". As Xena is doing. Why she was willing to do this for Lao Ma is my only question. I'm convinced she is subservient--but I'm not totally sure why. It's just one of those intriquing XWP puzzles. >> I keep telling you, but you won't listen. Snip snip > > In that scenario, Lao Ma would see more value in a Warrior Princess > > to preserve that power. Again, I just don't see Xena at that point as > > having some understanding of love that goes much beyond using and be > > used. It's hard with the flashbacks for me to remember sometimes just > > how far Xena came in that regard. > > > > -- Ife > > > I think Xena remembers what love is like. I think she never stopped > loving and grieving over Lyceus, for example. Nor certainly M'Lila. >> > > KT>> > > Sure, except I think she remembers love as synonymous with death (Lyceus, > M'Lila) and betrayal (Caesar). She remembers it as filled with pain and grief. > She doesn't trust it to ever be different. If she remembered the good > moments, she sure as heck didn't seem to choose them when she had the chance. > > -- Ife I agree on that. But she still mourns those people because she loved them. I remember feeling really happy for Xena in Ares Farm. Because for once, she remembers a past when she was happy, safe, nurtured and loved, when she was a young girl in her grandparent's house. And it's all good--she doesn't suddenly say, "And then I killed them all." It was a very poignant moment, very lovely. Sniffle.>> Oh, absolutely. For me, a lot of the poignancy comes from her not appreciating the chances she had in her past -- e.g., Lyceus' admiration, Cyane's invitation to join with the Amazons, M'Lila's rescue and sacrifice, Borias' genuine love for her, Akemi's friendship, Lao Ma's recognition of her potential for greatness in a positive way. If Xena mourned, it was not in celebration of what those people represented or their positive feelings for her. It was by avenging what she believed she'd lost. To me, gaining an appreciation for that, being able to see the love (rather than pain and death) was one of the critical ways Xena redeemed her *self* -- the self she'd buried along with those who recognized it. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 20:17:35 -0400 (EDT) From: cjlnh@webtv.net (Cheryl LaScola) Subject: [chakram-refugees] another XENA alumni Just started to watch Joan of Arcadia, sort of half paying attention and I hear the Vice Principal's voice..... a very familiar voice. I look up and there is Rafe from King Con. Not sure if he is a regular as this is the 1st time watching for me. CJ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 20:36:07 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Variety on Kathryn Morris Variety (Sept. 29, 2003) reviewed Cold Case. They were unimpressed by Kathryn Morris --- Main problem: Skein's star, Kathryn Morris, is a puzzle. She's unique and capable, but her energy is low and there's zero warmth. Granted, nobody's more bottled up than David Caruso in "CSI: Miama," but his reputation precedes him, and Morris just hasn't earned the right to be so moody. That said, a central femme is a terrific addition to CBS' collection of top cops, and her tight method may appeal to some. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #293 **************************************