From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #292 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, October 3 2003 Volume 03 : Number 292 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #267 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: Herc & Xena Lawsuit [cande@sunlink.net] [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak [cande@sunlink.net] [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak ["Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 Now let's see--where were we.... On Sat, 6 Sep 2003, cr wrote: > On Saturday 06 September 2003 04:23, KTL wrote: > > > > No, you two, I haven't seen a l-o-t of Herc eps, but enough to have > > > observed that \his/ repetitive opponents weren't so much "warlord of the > > > week's", but rather gorgeous, often (?) supernatural female opponents, > > > generally sicced on him by Hera. And they would end up reformed and in > > > love (and usually in the sack) with Herc, from whom they would > > > reluctantly and sadly part, some also to be heroic. > > > > Ah, calssic cowboy text. > > Was it? All the cowboy westerns I saw as a kid were notable for the > complete absence of sex and the near-total absence of females. Quite > regardless of what the Wild West *may* have been like, most of these Westerns > were made in the 60's and 70's IIRC (when TV cowboy Westerns were in vogue). > I doubt whether the Lone Ranger ever exchanged more than a 'Good Morning, > Ma'am' to a woman on screen, certainly didn't get hot 'n' heavy with the > supporting cast. > And I don't think we ever saw, in the Westerns, any female villains > whatsoever. > > cr Yes, that's true. What I meant more by "Calssic" cowboy text was how the hero comes into the girl's town and then into the girl's heart but at the end rides away alone or with his sidekick. Which is what Texena outlines up there. It's classic cowboy text, but it's text that actually spans a number of action/adventure genres. Girls didn't go adventuring. And in the straight-laced boys adventure stories, they didn't have sex with boys they weren't married to either. For that boys went to the whorehouses where the good guys hung out and drank with the madam with the heart of gold. Females were not villians then either. Even if they were "bad", they were usually just like fiesty brats who could be put in their place by a good kiss or a good spanking. (Note: This does not hold true of hard-boiled detective stories which were made into the Film Noir style. These often featured scheming nasty women, women who would have sex with strangers in order to get them to kill their husbands. Such as in Double Idemnity and The Postman Always Rings. And of course in the Maltese Falcon, the villain is also a woman.) Uh...who was the warlord of the week we were talking about? KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 02:26:23 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/8/03 7:21:52 AM Central Daylight Time, > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Snip snip > > << Oooooo, I like that "Xena personifies their own 'dark' sides". But I > think > it applies more to Lao Ma. Of course for Lao Ma, I would say that Lao Tzu > pretty much personifies her dark side also. But of course, nobody knows > that except us and Xena. >> > > Lao Tzu? Ugh. No way! He was merely a convenient lump, a puppet whose main > role was doing nothing at all. I guess for me "dark" side isn't inherently > evil, so much as a source of raw power and emotion without limitations. As > Alti pointed out, Lao Ma's "way" was based on denial, restraint, emptying herself > of will. She did her best "good" work through Lao Tzu's political status, in > contradiction of the bad that he himself would do if he could. But when it > came to expressing rage, violence, a strong will, winning at all cost, etc., I > think that's what Lao Ma saw in the woman she wanted by her side -- to carry > out what she wished but couldn't do herself. > > Okay--but I still say what she did to Lao Tzu says something about Lao Ma. Her ambition, her arrogance, her desire to wield power. Through tricking the kingdom about the status of its king and through selecting Xena to be her enforcer. Holding him captive in this was seems to me that his body literally personifies her dark side. > << Akemi though, Akemi kills her father herself. She doesn't have Xena do her > dirty work. >> > > Yes, that's true. You know that hadn't hit me before, but that is a point of > honor that I'd initially glossed over, in terms of being more sympathetic to > Akemi. She didn't need Xena in the same way as Lao Ma. Ironic that Lao Ma > had the power to blow folks away, yet didn't have the will to do it. Akemi had > nothing but her ingenuity and guts, yet never expected Xena to do the actual > killing of her father. She's an honorable kid. > > < grandfather says that Xena's sword isn't good enough. Apparently Grandpa > expects that Xena will kill Yodoshi. He doesn't seem to have expected > Akemi to avenge their deaths personally and use only "The Pinch" to do so. > And of course he's wrong about Xena's sword. Xena's sword is good enough > to kill even the Lord of the Dark Side.>> > > What do you mean? Didn't she use that special katana (with the red handle) > to kill Yodoshi? > Why yes she did--I remembered it as when Xena bursts back into being the full Xena again after Gabrielle passes her water to her that her sword was in her hand. (I LOVE that moment--Lucy just shows so much FORCE running through Xena's body as she's rejuvenated.) But I'm wrong-Xena doesn't have her sword--she just gets her costume back. Gabrielle has the Sacred Katana (she had been using it to toast marshmellows with the night before, no doubt) and Xena gets it from her for the battle. So---"Never Mind". snip snip > > M'Lila and Gabrielle want nothing from Xena except that she live to > fulfill > > her potential. > > << And Gabrielle certainly used Xena also. She saw Xena as her ticket out of > Poteidia. And forced Xena to take her along by pulling out the "I saved > your life" card. She also wants Xena to change to suit her (Gabrielle's) > ideas of what kind of a person she should be. As late as Chakram, > Gabrielle says, "Xena is everything that I always wanted her to be" and > then realizes for like the 20th time that without her dark side, Xena is > out of balance and not able to do what she needs to do to make things > right. >> > > Okay, I won't get into degrees of "using," as we all have our own purposes > for doing things. However, I'd have to put Gabrielle on the low end. Yes, she > followed Xena, but used her own resourcefulness to get to and find Xena. I > also don't see her as using Xena, just because she wanted Xena to live up to > certain ideals. Yes, she had some personal investment in that, but I can't put > it on the same level as what Alti or even Lao Ma wanted Xena to do for them. I think at the beginning she was using Xena the same as so many people had for her own purposes. And yeah, she always thought she was wiser than Xena was in terms of people and their motivations. Which of course only showed how naive she was and how she had absolutely no idea of the life that Xena had led. > > > Again, I saw that subservience as superficial and self-serving -- quite > > characteristic of Delinquent Xena. She knows there'll be some payoff. > > I didn't see it that way at all. She IS subservient to Lao Ma. She's > willing to be the Warrior Princess to Lao Ma's Queen. And seems to feel > proud that Lao Ma has chosen her to be so..>> > > > I guess I saw young Xena as having different forms of "subservience," > depending on the mentor at the time. Borias and Alti liked Xena's boldness. Only > Lao Ma required the kind of restraint and humility we saw, as part of the test > Xena had to pass before moving on to higher studies. Xena was no fool. She > knew she needed to stay in Lao Ma's good graces if she wanted to learn about Lao > Ma's powers. She also saw that there was some connection between those > powers and Lao Ma's lectures about "emptying" one's self. > > I'm not denying the special bond between them. She admired Lao Ma in a way > she didn't her other "teachers." I'm simply saying that I didn't find the > subservience all that notable, except as an indication that Xena would do whatever > it took to learn what she wanted. She always did whatever it took to learn what she wanted. But only with Lao Ma did she make herself a servant along with being a student. She never let anybody else pick out girly clothes for her. (Well, except for that one time in Chariots of War when she wore the guy's wife's dress at his request. But that only lasted a few hours...) I mean, surely she could have just hidden if Ming Tzu came along. There had to be guard type clothes she could have worn which would have helped disguise her. She never scurried along behind anybody like a scampering puppy. And she never ever let anybody laugh at her without getting really ticked off. Except for Lao Ma. Totally different attitude towards Lao Ma than torwards anybody else. > > > > < > what she believes Lao Ma wants -- what Lao Ma herself seems to use -- a > false > > subservience that hides what's underneath. Remember all Lao Ma's talk > about > > being an "insignificant wife"? > > > I would say that when Xena's showing false subservience, she let's us know > it. As when she's crying to Odin because he doesn't trust her. The look > over his shoulder tells us she's scamming. >> > > Yep, she has a similar look when she's serving Papa and Baby Ming, and later > when she suggests the dice game. I didn't see her showing particular > subservience to Lao Ma herself (which she said she was willing to do). I'm mainly > talking about the false subservience she showed to others as part of Lao Ma's > tests. Yes and when it's false it's obvious. That's what I'm saying. Xena never indicated that acquiesing to Lao Ma's classes, tests, lectures, requests was ever somethign Xena only pretended to do. She DID them, truthfully, faithfully and willingly. > >Lao Ma was using a blend of caring, > > discipline and the promise of new toys to bring Xena along. I saw > > more of a child/parent relationship than adult/adult. > > Yes. Or subservientee to subservientor. (wink)>> > > LOL! Sorry, but I see child/parent or mentor/student, rather than the > subservience thing. As Lao Ma said, it wouldn't prove anything for Xena to be > subservient to her, but I do think she wanted Xena to be able to achieve more > humility and restraint with others, in other situations. > Lao Ma talks about how easy it is for Xena to want to serve her. Because it's "easy to serve one you love". As Xena is doing. Why she was willing to do this for Lao Ma is my only question. I'm convinced she is subservient--but I'm not totally sure why. It's just one of those intriquing XWP puzzles. Snip snip > > In that scenario, Lao Ma would see more value in a Warrior Princess > > to preserve that power. Again, I just don't see Xena at that point as > > having some understanding of love that goes much beyond using and be > > used. It's hard with the flashbacks for me to remember sometimes just > > how far Xena came in that regard. > > > > -- Ife > > > I think Xena remembers what love is like. I think she never stopped > loving and grieving over Lyceus, for example. Nor certainly M'Lila. >> > > KT>> > > Sure, except I think she remembers love as synonymous with death (Lyceus, > M'Lila) and betrayal (Caesar). She remembers it as filled with pain and grief. > She doesn't trust it to ever be different. If she remembered the good > moments, she sure as heck didn't seem to choose them when she had the chance. > > -- Ife I agree on that. But she still mourns those people because she loved them. I remember feeling really happy for Xena in Ares Farm. Because for once, she remembers a past when she was happy, safe, nurtured and loved, when she was a young girl in her grandparent's house. And it's all good--she doesn't suddenly say, "And then I killed them all." It was a very poignant moment, very lovely. Sniffle. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 02:36:57 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #267 On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Cheryl Ande wrote: > I quote and have lost track of who said what: > > > > > > Again, I saw that subservience as superficial and self-serving -- > quite > > > characteristic of Delinquent Xena. She knows there'll be some payoff. > > > > I didn't see it that way at all. She IS subservient to Lao Ma. She's > > willing to be the Warrior Princess to Lao Ma's Queen. And seems to feel > > proud that Lao Ma has chosen her to be so..>> > > > I always found the scene with Xena serving Mien as one where Xena is just > trying out Lao Ma's way. She trying to give humility a shot and see if it > works or not. You have a distinct impression that she isn't too impressed > with the results and neither is Lao Ma. LOL! She doesn't really try all that hard. But remember, Lao Ma IS pleased that she even tried it. After M'ing Tzu leaves the dialogue is, Xena: "All right, Lao Ma. I did the whole servant bit. And it accomplished NOTHING!" Lao Ma: "You're wrong. For a few hours, you actually silenced your will. It's a beginning." After Lao Ma spends the whole > evening wondering if Xena's going to lose it and cut Mein's throat. I'm > sure Lao needed a nice big bicarb that evening. I think Xena wanted to > serve Lao Ma but she just couldn't do it on Lao Ma's terms. She began. But then Borias showed up and Xena had her good kicking legs back and the temptation to "desire" was just too much for the little dickens. (That's a plural dickens.) Lao Ma was > trying to tame a tiger when she was mentoring Xena and she forgot you can't > tame a tiger - you can win it's trust and maybe it's affection but it will > always be wild. Lao Ma never realized how strong Xena's wild streak was. > > CherylA Blink. Now wait--aren't you one of the "Gabrielle tamed Xena" folks? Don't you espouse that Gabrielle's love made Xena whole, not that Xena herself made herself whole? My thinking is that Xena DID learn Lao Ma's lesson -- especially the part that goes "To conquer others is to have power. To conquer yourself--is to know the Way". KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 02:44:45 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Kathryn Morris' new show On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, mirrordrum wrote: > i haven't seen this amongst my posts. for those who're interested, the naj is > starring in a new CBS show this fall. another in the spate of CSI-type cop > shows with doughty women on the case. The naj? I LIKE that! > > COLD CASE stars Kathryn Morris ("Minority Report") in a drama about Lilly > Rush, the lone female detective in the Philadelphia homicide squad who finds > her calling when she's assigned to "cold cases," crimes that have never been > solved. Snip snip > When she hits a dead end, > Lilly seeks advice from her respected mentor, Lt. Tom Stillman (John Finn). > > why oh why is the mentor always a guy? another reason to love xena. her > mentors were primarily women. And she was a mentor for a number of young women. Or at the very least a role model, since she was always rolling around the countryside. ;-> (I mean in terms of not staying in one spot to be the site mentor, like with Oteri's Amazonettes. Or indeed, any of the Amazon tribes she interacted wth.) i wonder who taught her to use a sword when she > and lyceus were young. his remark to her in that she's better with a > sword than he is (well duh) LOL! has always made me wonder who would have taught > them the basics. well, had to be more than basics for them to defeat cortese. > Hmmm. That's a good question. Her fiance also mentions something on how Xena and Lyceus were always practicing fighting together. But who did teach them their moves? Yet ANOTHER unsolved mystery... KT > > md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 03:14:15 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 1 massive snippage On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, cr wrote: > On Friday 12 September 2003 09:22, KTL wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Previously on this thread: > > > > She isn't thinking of Hercules, or > > > > > Borias or her children she is thinking of Gabrielle. > > > > Well hell, almost everybody else in her life is dead! Even Hercules is > > probably already in Olympus, courtesy of his...er whoops, dead father. > > Hmmmm. In the real myth, Zeus takes Hercules up to Olympus at the end. > > Wonder how Hercules ends up on Tapert's version of the myth. Guess we'll > > never know now since last we saw, he was just walking off into the sunset > > with his little boy toy. > > Umm, nope, God Fearing Child came after Full Circle. GFC was the true > finale of the Herc series, IMO. > > (How do I know? Because, at the end of Full Circle, Zeus and Hera were > still alive. By the end of GFC they were dead.) Yeah, but where do you think Herc goes after he offs Zeus? I'm sure he just goes back to strolling with Iolaus. Herc's story never ended--it was much more like regular tv shows that way. But of course it was much lighter than Xena and Herc didn't have those huge personal flaws to deal with. Herc was much more of a regular action adventure show that way--there wasn't really an internal conflict that he had to "conquer", not much he had to atone for like Xena did. (Although I bet he's WAY happy Xena killed the Furies so he doesn't have to worry about the fallout from killing his father.) The story line of Herc was...Herc has adventures, yeah? The story line of Xena was, "Xena is a reforming warlord, trying to become a better person and to make restitution for old wrongs." One really has no need of an ending because there is no conflict to have been resolved. The other one does have the major conflict of the whole series. And it did get resolved at the end. > > > > I made a number of converts in work to XWP during season five. They wanted to see the earlier eps. > > We watched Maternal Instincts. > > Well, ya couldn't have hit him with a better ep if you'd tried. That one > has *everything*. It is definitely one of the best. > > > And at the end of it, he came up to me where I was saying goodbye to some > > of our tourists. He was literally slack-jawed with disbelieve and kept > > saying, "She didn't forgive her! She didn't say, 'Oh, it's okay-stop > > crying. I know you didn't mean it. I know you're sorry that your lies led > > to my son's death. Here, let me give you a hug'. She didn't forgive her! > > They didn't walk off together! She didn't forgive her!" The tourists > > looked both bewildered and intrigued as I shooed them off to get into > > their cab. Heh. > > > And the coordinator was exactly right. With the multi ep arcs, Tapert > > never went for the simple shallow resolution. The stories were never > > neatly wrapped up with all strings cut and tucked and all edges evenly > > aligned. Actions had repercussions that might not show up for years. Many > > of the decisions made reverberated throughout the show ever after. > > Heh! I was discussing just this point with a fellow Xena / Farscape fan, > and complaining that Gabrielle got away with far too much (as in Gurkhan - is > anybody surprised? :) and that, if one of the Farscape characters had > done that, they'd be hearing all about it for the next six eps. In other > words, actions had consequences. In Xena, rather more often, actions only > seem to have consequences for Xena, and they don't go away. > That's because it's Xena's story. > I will admit, I love these bits of continuity. Specially, I have to add, > when TPTB get it right ;) In a way, it's a little present for the fans > who have been paying attention. > Me too. > > With Xena's story, Tapert and Stewart created the most complex, > > multi-layered, morally ambiguous, loaded-down-with-dense history > > characters I have ever seen on my little TV screen. > > You don't watch Farscape, do you? ;) > Yes, smarty pants, I do. Jade sent me copies of seasons two, three and parts of four. It's an EXCELLENT show. BUT Lucy as Xena was better to me. Actually, I've thought for a while that the only person I could possibly imagine as Xena other than Lucy just MIGHT be Claudia Clark. While not so classically beautiful as Lucy, she is extremely attractive in a unique way. But best of all, she play Aeryn as a totally believable warrior. Of course, she had an obvioius role model in Lucy as Xena. Lucy didn't have much to guide her. Most other girl-as-male-type-hero stories are a linear transformation that show the female ramping up through challenges to become the hero. Lucy had to BE the hero from the beginning--no girly bits were first played and then left behind, no lead up to how she became this way. Nope, she had to present herself as this best-warrior-in-the-known-world-who-happens-to-be-a-woman right from day one. And she did a damn fine job at that. > > And then Rob gave her > > to Lucy to play. And Lucy took that character and ran into television > > history with her. > > I will happily admit there - *nobody* else (including on Farscape) has the > impact that Lucy does as Xena. > SMILE > > > > Now that's a very good point. I always say that the basic story of XWP is > > Xena's road to redemption. But I never meant it as her seeking atonement > > to better her own afterlife. No, she's out to make atonement and > > reparations to those whom she's hurt in the past. She's trying to make up > > to them for what she did to them in any way that she can. > > In other words, she's just taking each day as it comes. No long-range > plan. I think that's fitting. It's villains like Caesar and Dahak who > have the long-range plans to conquer the world. True. > > That almost sounds like a contradiction. That I like the bits of history > that come back to bite the characters, but I don't care that the ad-hoc > things Xena does today may come back to haunt her in years to come. > (Not inevitably. Sometimes we get away with it). > > But it isn't really a contradiction. Shit happens, all the time. And > sometimes, the results are long-term. In fact, because of the infinite > capacity of shit to happen, long-range plans don't usually work as intended, > if at all. > > Maybe this is why I don't see any great Message in the ending of FIN. Some > folks (obviously not lfe and cande?) felt that Xena's entire saga had a great > moral attached, that she was working towards her reward, and her death > cancelled out all that and made a nonsense of it. Others felt that FIN was > the fitting culmination of her saga. I think that Xena's life *was* the > message. That all her adventures added up to the whole, of which her death > was just a part. And that the exact way that FIN ended didn't make a great > deal of difference. Call it pragmatic, I guess. > To me Xena's last few years of life was the message also. And that led to her staying dead in FIN to save those lost souls. > > And of course, in the end this sacrifice does, as Akemi says, redeem Xena > > too. Because in the next life, she's the Mother of Peace. Still fighting > > for the little guy but this time only with her words and example, not with > > her words, example AND chakram. > > I was about to say that, of course, that next-life thing contradicts my > pragmatic approach. But actually, it doesn't. Xena only had to do her > best from day to day (or in fact, be a warrrior, as Krishna told her and she > decided in Ides). In that respect, what happened in FIN didn't really > matter for Xena's long-term future (though it certainly changed her immediate > career prospects ;) so long as she did the best she could, win or lose. > Had she chosen to walk away from those souls, it would have mattered. Because that would be the coward's way out. To not take the responsiblity for what had happened. To say, there I've done enough, sorry it's not enough. And as Lucy and Renee say in the commentary to FIN, what kind of life would Xena have had after she had turned her back on those souls? That would have been the end of the hero's story for sure... KT > > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 23:18:05 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:26, KTL wrote: (massive snippage) > > < > grandfather says that Xena's sword isn't good enough. Apparently > > Grandpa expects that Xena will kill Yodoshi. He doesn't seem to have > > expected Akemi to avenge their deaths personally and use only "The Pinch" > > to do so. And of course he's wrong about Xena's sword. Xena's sword is > > good enough to kill even the Lord of the Dark Side.>> > > > > What do you mean? Didn't she use that special katana (with the red > > handle) to kill Yodoshi? > > Why yes she did--I remembered it as when Xena bursts back into being > the full Xena again after Gabrielle passes her water to her that her sword > was in her hand. (I LOVE that moment--Lucy just shows so much FORCE > running through Xena's body as she's rejuvenated.) But I'm > wrong-Xena doesn't have her sword--she just gets her costume back. > Gabrielle has the Sacred Katana (she had been using it to toast > marshmellows with the night before, no doubt) and Xena gets it from her > for the battle. That was a nice bit of continuity on TPTB's part. There were two katanas involved - the Sacred Katana and Ghost-killer's - and they both turned up on Mt Fuji. And when I carefully traced their movements (in the story), it all fitted together. That was good. (Wish TPTB had always been that good ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 08:57:14 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Herc & Xena Lawsuit A lawsuit over a distribution of profits is quit common. The cast of Star Trek had to sue Paramount, Natalie Wood and Robert Wagner had to sue to get their profits from Charlie's Angles, Fess Parker sued to get his profit from Daniel Boone, etc. The studios are nortorious for creative bookkeeping and they always maintain that there are no profits or that receipts are low. Obviously nothing has improved over the years. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 09:07:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak - -----Original Message----- From: KTL Lao Ma was > trying to tame a tiger when she was mentoring Xena and she forgot you can't > tame a tiger - you can win it's trust and maybe it's affection but it will > always be wild. Lao Ma never realized how strong Xena's wild streak was. > > CherylA Blink. Now wait--aren't you one of the "Gabrielle tamed Xena" folks? Don't you espouse that Gabrielle's love made Xena whole, not that Xena herself made herself whole? My thinking is that Xena DID learn Lao Ma's lesson -- especially the part that goes "To conquer others is to have power. To conquer yourself--is to know the Way". KT Actually no. Xena changed herself and I don't believe anyone can redeemed someone else. I however do believe that Gabrielle was essential in helping Xena to stay on the path of redemption. She was the one who had confidence in Xena's goodness even when Xena didn't. Xena had Gabrielle to be good for: she wanted to be the person Gabrielle thought she was. Yes I do believe Xena finally learned Lao Ma's lesson but the problem was that Lao Ma pushed Xena too soon to accept her way. Xena's wild streak was too strong for Lao Ma to tame at that time. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:10:49 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak > Lao Ma was > > trying to tame a tiger when she was mentoring Xena and she forgot you can't > > tame a tiger - you can win it's trust and maybe it's affection but it will > > always be wild. Lao Ma never realized how strong Xena's wild streak was. > > > > CherylA > > > Blink. Now wait--aren't you one of the "Gabrielle tamed Xena" folks? > Don't you espouse that Gabrielle's love made Xena whole, not that Xena > herself made herself whole? My thinking is that Xena DID learn Lao Ma's > lesson -- especially the part that goes "To conquer others is to have > power. To conquer yourself--is to know the Way". > > KT > > Actually no. Xena changed herself and I don't believe anyone can > redeemed someone else. Ah, exactly my thoughts. I however do believe that Gabrielle was > essential in helping Xena to stay on the path of redemption. She was > the one who had confidence in Xena's goodness even when Xena didn't. > Xena had Gabrielle to be good for: she wanted to be the person > Gabrielle thought she was. Again, I mainly agree with this. I don't know if I'd call Gabrielle "essential" but I suspect Xena probably would. I think Xena would have restored her soul by herself eventually, but her understanding of Gabrielle and her respect for what she so unfalteringly stood for made Xena's journey back to goodness easier and faster than it would have been without her. Gabrielle was Xena's lodestone, her moral compass, her north star in finding her way back to her humanity. Xena expresses this all the time--not only by actions but in words also. I think that if Gabrielle had not stopped Xena with that pitchfork in Ties That Bind, she could easily have turned away from her Way and reverted back to Evil Xena. In the Reckoning Xena is in full fighting frenzy, mopping the floor up with the guards. But the minute she realizes that she has attacked Gabrielle, she pulls out of the frenzy and returns to herself. And stops herself from doing further damage. In Dirty Dozen, she says to Glaphyra: Xena: "Gabrielle's been through more than you'd think. Yes, more than you. And, despite everything, she doesn't carry hatred toward others. Good people don't." Glaphyra: "And the bad people?" Xena: "The bad people are us, Glaphyra-- who I was; who you are. You know, you're so quick to blame everything on men, you have never once--looked inside yourself for the answers. It's something that I had to learn. Gabrielle is a good teacher. Who knows? If-- if I had met her back when I met you, maybe it'd be me who changed." The final scene of Dirty Dozen however, shows Gabrielle agreeing with me: X: "You're Gabrielle-- bard, Amazon Princess-- best friend. Nobody made you who you are-- it was already there. The question is, who would I be without you?" G: "Hmm-- I can answer that. You'd still be heroic Xena. You were on that path when we met." X: "Are you crazy? Without you to keep me on the straight and narrow-- " G: "You'd have managed." X: "Hey!" G: "Just not as well." X: "Hang on a minute." KT: Exactly.... (Thanks to Whoosh for the transcripts--I don't have timet oday to watch the scenes myself as I like to do when quoting them) Yes I do believe Xena finally learned Lao > Ma's lesson but the problem was that Lao Ma pushed Xena too soon to > accept her way. Xena's wild streak was too strong for Lao Ma to tame > at that time. > > CherylA Xena never got tamed. Except of course in the excreable Fates Colliding (or as md so deliciously calls it, "Farts Colluding") where love makes Xena a whingeing, whining, whimpering, beaten fool, giving in to her enemies, losing all her smarts about people and their motives and not being capable of coming up with any strategic schemes to save the day AND the fair young maiden. (SPIT) In all the other episodes, (except for a few faltering internal questioning moments in season four), Xena was always a wild, untamed, free-wheeling and formidable warrior--who loved many people for many reasons. And who loved Gabrielle completely and unconditionally. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:00:43 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena's wild streak - ----- Original Message ----- From: "KTL" > > > Again, I mainly agree with this. I don't know if I'd call Gabrielle > "essential" but I suspect Xena probably would. I think Xena would have > restored her soul by herself eventually, but her understanding of > Gabrielle and her respect for what she so unfalteringly stood for made > Xena's journey back to goodness easier and faster than it would have been > without her. Yes I agree with this. I also think that Gabrielle in many ways was a test for Xena. She pushed Xena to re-examine may of the ways she reacted to people. I think we see that in the rift arc. Xena learns forgiveness and tolerance because of her relationship with Gabrielle. The first time she forgives someone who has betrayed her and learns that people often disappoint us but that doesn't mean that we stop loving them or that they stop loving them. I think Xena watches Gabrielle struggle with her own dark impulses and discovers something about herself by watching Gabrielle deal with them. Xena for once is in a relationship where she wants to understand another person's pain and help that person overcome their pain. Xena grows because of this. > > > Xena never got tamed. Except of course in the excreable Fates Colliding > (or as md so deliciously calls it, "Farts Colluding") where love makes > Xena a whingeing, whining, whimpering, beaten fool, giving in to her > enemies, losing all her smarts about people and their motives and not > being capable of coming up with any strategic schemes to save the day AND > the fair young maiden. (SPIT) Now. now I don't want you to hold back your feelings any. How do you really feel about WFC? (g) I have to point out that in Fates Xena in that episode is not the Xena of the series. It is a Xena who hasn't had to survive crucifixion, limping across Asia, meeting Lao Ma, or Alti, or Odin. This is a woman who actually has had a rather comfortable life despite being a warrior. In all probability Gabrielle probably had more of struggle with life than Xena did. After all Gabby got herself out of Protidea and became successful without any help. Xena had Caesar by her side so perhaps she wasn't as self-reliant as our Xena. I however don't see her as a fool at all. She is a woman dealing with a traumatic turn of events - her life is an artificial construct - it is no wonder she has a tough time creating strategies to deal with that. > > In all the other episodes, (except for a few faltering internal > questioning moments in season four), Xena was always a wild, untamed, > free-wheeling and formidable warrior--who loved many people for many > reasons. And who loved Gabrielle completely and unconditionally. > I can agree that Xena is always untamed. She is like some great predatory cat elegant and dangerous who has chosen a companion with whom she can pretend to be tamed. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:28:02 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #267 In a message dated 10/3/03 5:38:20 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << Lao Ma was > trying to tame a tiger when she was mentoring Xena and she forgot you can't > tame a tiger - you can win it's trust and maybe it's affection but it will > always be wild. Lao Ma never realized how strong Xena's wild streak was. > > CherylA Blink. Now wait--aren't you one of the "Gabrielle tamed Xena" folks? Don't you espouse that Gabrielle's love made Xena whole, not that Xena herself made herself whole? My thinking is that Xena DID learn Lao Ma's lesson -- especially the part that goes "To conquer others is to have power. To conquer yourself--is to know the Way". KT >> I'll let Cheryl deal with the first question. As to the second, the problem may be that we're dealing with two different time periods. I agree with Cheryl that Xena deserved a "D" for learning Lao Ma's lesson's the first time around. Only reason I don't give her an "F" is because she at least tried (however unenthusiastically) and managed to float around in the air for nearly a minute. It's only much later that Xena is able to truly tap into Lao Ma's lessons. I can only assume that Lao Ma knew that Xena might use that power in battle, as opposed to making better floral arragements with her mind. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #292 **************************************