From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #288 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, September 30 2003 Volume 03 : Number 288 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: another series Re: [chakram-refugees] [OT] Dr. Who [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lost Mariner [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lost Mariner [cande@sunlink.net] [chakram-refugees] RE: Ulysses [cande@sunlink.net] [chakram-refugees] OT: Cold Case [cande@sunlink.net] Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Cold Case [Sekhmet209@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] "Listening" in ULYSSES and AFIN [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: another series Re: [chakram-refugees] [OT] Dr. Who [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lost Mariner [IfeRae@aol.com] Back to Ulysses (Was Re: [chakram-refugees] Lost Mariner) [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:50:48 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: another series Re: [chakram-refugees] [OT] Dr. Who In a message dated 9/27/2003 2:08:11 AM Central Daylight Time, aemoses@comcast.net writes: > we don't need another series or another movie. we've had the best. they > left > me wanting more but the wanting more is gone and what's left is joy and > satisfaction and the feeling that they *never* let me down. i'm a better, > more informed and even wiser person for that show. it just doesn't get any > better than that. > You spoke my thoughts beautifully. I'm wondering if my middle-aged perspective is at work in my desire to leave XWP be. I've seen too many folks my age holding on to past joys, as though there's little to look forward to. One of the things I loved about XWP is that LL&ROC gave us the best of their youth, but not to the point of burning out. Similarly, the rest of Xenastaff experimented, risked, learned by the seat of their pants, followed their hearts, gave their all, and did a damned fine job of using what they had to create a standard others have trouble following with loads more resources. When I was in the midst of my best youthful days, I never thought about them ending. I realize now that I can't recapture some moments, that I have to enjoy them for what they were at the time and for the joy they can still give me. There's that saying "youth is wasted on the young," largely because we often can't appreciate it until much later. I love that LL&ROC did so much with those six years they devoted to XWP, apparently enjoying themselves and valuing their personal lives even though they missed out on some other things they might've enjoyed. They didn't take either their youth or their opportunities for granted. Now they can reap the benefits of some financial security, time to do a variety of things and the satisfaction that XWP is a lasting accomplishment they can be proud of. I can't say that I wouldn't want to see an older X&G. If LL&ROC wanted to reprise their roles, I'd no doubt be optimistic and excited. I'd try to start "fresh" and accept what I saw in its own time. A part of me feels I'd be looking through the prism of nostalgia, comparing everything to what used to be, even as I appreciated new aspects. Another part believes we could see something that was in its own way as good as the original. If it does happen one day, I only hope it evolves naturally, because of a wonderful new concept that screams X&G. For now, I'm more than content with what I have and happy that LL& ROC are fulfilling themselves in other ways. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:33:33 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lost Mariner On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:24, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Lost Mariner > > This is one of my favorite episodes. There is a lot to like about this > episode. Everyone here seems to have their moments to shine. Gabrielle > gets to befriend the kindly first mate, throw-up, eat squid and get a > sixty-year-old boyfriend. Yup, that's highlight of the year for Gabby. ;) The sort of romantic adventurous life she hooked up with Xena for.... > Xena heroically comes to Gabrielle's rescue by > making the longest jump onto a moving ship every attempted. Then she bests > Poseidon and solves a 300-year-old curse. > > The guest stars are also wonderful. Tony Todd as the cursed Cecrops is > terrific. He is truly a tragic hero. Having seen Tony Todd in the Herc eps 'Gladiator' and 'Faith', I'd say Cecrops was his best role by quite a margin. He was perfectly OK in the other two roles, but his character in Lost Mariner had a degree of sympathy - maybe just the writing was better, maybe the character just happened to suit him perfectly. I love his introduction to Xena - a sort of resigned exasperation. "So now I have both of you. Great!" > Todd has great charisma. His Cecrops is larger than life; a man full of > vigor and humor. He puts on a fagade of ruthlessness but is at heart > gentle and caring. This is perhaps the best piece of guest star casting in > the history of the series. Todd inhabits Cecrops as if he was born to play > this role. Oh, I see you just said that too. If they'd cast him as Ulysses, now, that ep could have been altogether different. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:56:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lost Mariner - -----Original Message----- From: cr Oh, I see you just said that too. If they'd cast him as Ulysses, now, that ep could have been altogether different. cr Oh I agree. I am sure if he had been Ulysses we would have had a character that would have lived upto the legend. I think they would have had to rewrite the part a bit. I think Ulysses as written seemed just a bit too boyish so I think Todd's Ulysses would have been more mature. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:30:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: Ulysses Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 16:02:52 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] "Listening" in ULYSSES and AFIN "What's amazing to me about XWP is how -- despite inconsistencies and contradictions -- the early eps have so many seeds that we see flower in flashbacks from later eps. In Gabs' case, it's more linear. With "listening," we see her focused on hearing peace and beauty for its own sake, as she doesn in ULYSSES and CRUSADER. Over the course of the series, she learns to listen as Xena does, for warnings of danger or clues to develop the best offense/defense. This is one of the lessons X impresses upon G in AFIN, which G does indeed use in her quest to get X's body." Yes there is a strange continuity to Xena. Often in the later episodes you see refrences to prior episodes that are so subtle that you can miss them. I never thought about the theme of "listening" before. But you are right there many refrences in the series about listening. "I was more conscious of the way she's listening to Ulysses talk about his wife, about his love for Xena, about his wife's love for him. It reminded me of the scene with Akemi, where a surprised Xena hears Akemi's quickened hearbeat and wonders what it means. Akemi says it's about the love that Xena pays too little attention to. I thought of all the later times Xena paid attention to what was going on inside someone, as she did with G especially during the fourth season -- out of love and caring, for clues to the "right" response in terms of what seemed best for the other person. " Of course many the problems of the thir season arise when either Xena or Gabrielle don't listen well to the world around them. Gabrielle in The Debt listens to the story of Xena and Lao Ma but she doesn't listen with any sort of comprehension to what lies beneath the tale Xena is telling her. In Gabrille's Hope Xena hears but doesn't understand the depth of Gabrielle's love for her baby. Listening becomes a metaphore to understanding in Xena. Xena listened to Ulysses talk of his wife and understands that beneath his protestations that he doesn't love her there is the fact that once he did and may again. "Retrospectively, I layer the early eps with what I learned later on. I know about the loves lost and betrayed, the range of experiences and emotions that shaped the woman beneath the stoicism (e.g., Akemi). ....." What the Xena staff did with Xena's backstory was amazing. They were able to show how the experiences that Xena had as a young woman shaped the woman she is now. Everything seemed to fit so well. Her evotion to Gabrielle certainly grows from the fact that she threw away so many chances at love and friendship. Her distain for the gods certainly can be traced back to her experiences with Odin and her discovey that the gods are foolish. "I'm not suggesting that Xenastaff intended for me or anybody else to read what we do into what the flashbacks or later eps meant in terms of earler eps." No probably not. But I think it is an indication that the Xena staff especially Rob understood Xena's character so well that they could build a backstory that fit so well the persona of the Xena we saw in the first two seasons. "I guess I'm saying I admire the way Xena's early portrayal allowed for the depth we saw them build later on. .... comparing Gabs' ideals and concerns about Xena with the "real" Xena who was capable of greater evil and emotional range than even the internally aware Gabs knew, and comparing the Xena we were seeing at the time with the Xena she had been before. Maybe that's why I can revisit eps I've seen countless times, yet still find freshness that surprises me." Yes there is a sense of rediscovery everytime you watch an old episode. You can see The Price and watch Gabrielle be shocked at Xena's ruthlessness and know that years from now Gabrielle will be a simular situation and know she will struggle with many of the same issues that Xena dealt with in that situation. You understand why Xena trys so hard to nurture or protect Gabrielle's innocence because she knows that losing one's soul can be so devestating. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:51:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: Cold Case I watched Cold Case last night and liked it. Kathryn Morris was very good - she still has that smirky manipulative quality that she had as Najara but it works really well here. I liked the show personally because it is set in Philadelphia and at one point they had to go to the Frackville prison. That frankly surprised me because I thought that was a rather obscure fact that we have a prison in Frackville (not too far from me) perhaps the characters then stopped at the mall for a bite to eat (yes the mall and the state prsion are next to one another: also the prison is a lovely shade of pink). Anyway the mystery wasn't much of a mystery (based on that case involving Ethel Kennedy's relatives) but the story used the flashbacks in an interesting way. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:45:25 EDT From: Sekhmet209@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Cold Case In a message dated 9/29/03 11:52:00 AM, cande@sunlink.net writes: >I watched Cold Case last night and liked it. Kathryn Morris was very good >- she still has that smirky manipulative quality that she had as Najara >but it works really well here. I liked the show personally because it >is set in Philadelphia and at one point they had to go to the Frackville >prison. That frankly surprised me because I thought that was a rather >obscure fact that we have a prison in Frackville (not too far from me) >perhaps the characters then stopped at the mall for a bite to eat (yes >the mall and the state prsion are next to one another: also the prison >is a lovely shade of pink). Anyway the mystery wasn't much of a mystery >(based on that case involving Ethel Kennedy's relatives) but the story >used the flashbacks in an interesting way. I liked it too, but I came away with the distinct impression that the creators of the show must have gotten their inspiration from watching A&E, which airs "Crossing Jordan" reruns and a show called "Cold Case Files" back-to-back on Saturday nights. IMHO the new "Cold Case" is an obvious hybrid of those two programs, and although it's worth watching, it's not quite as good as either of its predecessors (at least not yet). - --Sekhmet ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:00:07 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] "Listening" in ULYSSES and AFIN In a message dated 9/28/2003 3:51:59 PM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Ife--okay, okay, we're listening already! > > Very nice post by the way. Even the third time around...;-> > > LOL! Sorry, I've been having puter problems, especially with email. Posts listed as "not sent" were, and those listed as "sent" weren't. I think it's fixed, but don't be surprised if you get more than one copy of this. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:27:08 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: another series Re: [chakram-refugees] [OT] Dr. Who In a message dated 9/27/2003 2:08:11 AM Central Daylight Time, aemoses@comcast.net writes: > we don't need another series or another movie. we've had the best. they > left > me wanting more but the wanting more is gone and what's left is joy and > satisfaction and the feeling that they *never* let me down. i'm a better, > more informed and even wiser person for that show. it just doesn't get any > better than that. > You spoke my thoughts beautifully. I'm wondering if my middle-aged perspective is at work in my desire to leave XWP be. I've seen too many folks my age holding on to past joys, as though there's little to look forward to. One of the things I loved about XWP is that LL&ROC gave us the best of their youth, but not to the point of burning out. Similarly, the rest of Xenastaff experimented, risked, learned by the seat of their pants, followed their hearts, gave their all, and did a damned fine job of using what they had to create a standard others have trouble following with loads more resources. When I was in the midst of my best youthful days, I never thought about them ending. I realize now that I can't recapture some moments, that I have to enjoy them for what they were at the time and for the joy they can still give me. There's that saying "youth is wasted on the young," largely because we often can't appreciate it until much later. I love that LL&ROC did so much with those six years they devoted to XWP, apparently enjoying themselves and valuing their personal lives even though they missed out on some other things they might've enjoyed. They didn't take either their youth or their opportunities for granted. Now they can reap the benefits of some financial security, time to do a variety of things and the satisfaction that XWP is a lasting accomplishment they can be proud of. I can't say that I wouldn't want to see an older X&G. If LL&ROC wanted to reprise their roles, I'd no doubt be optimistic and excited. I'd try to start "fresh" and accept what I saw in its own time. A part of me feels I'd be looking through the prism of nostalgia, comparing everything to what used to be, even as I appreciated new aspects. Another part believes we could see something that was in its own way as good as the original. If it does happen one day, I only hope it evolves naturally, because of a wonderful new concept that screams X&G. For now, I'm more than content with what I have and happy that LL& ROC are fulfilling themselves in other ways. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:25:08 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lost Mariner In a message dated 9/28/03 5:14:38 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: << The in a terrible storm his first mate and friend, Hasim, dies trying to save him. Suddenly Cecrops knows the truth, the lost mariner is lost no more, it is not finding someone to love him but to love others is the solution to the curse. Cecrops then sacrifices himself to the whirlpool so that his crew and his friends can be free from the ship.>> Don't forget we also have Xena's refusal to leave the ship, out of concern for trying to save everyone else. And when she climbs up the mast, she's also willingly jeopardizing herself for others. Poseidon wants Cecrops to sacrifice this woman who has shown such caring for her friend and strangers. I think that's the moment it all comes together for him. << Some questions though: When Xena climbs into the crow's nest why is she flailing her sword about? I know she has to drop it so that Cecrops can pick it up and defy Poseidon by returning it to her but it doesn't make a lot of sense. >> The crow's nest has become snarled with loose ropes which Xena becomes entangled in. Xena needs the sword to cut herself free. Apparently, her boot knife, breast dagger, chakram, teeth and/or superhuman strength wouldn't work in that situation. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:25:05 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Back to Ulysses (Was Re: [chakram-refugees] Lost Mariner) In a message dated 9/29/03 6:03:24 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: Cheryl said: << > Todd has great charisma. His Cecrops is larger than life; a man full of > vigor and humor. He puts on a fagade of ruthlessness but is at heart > gentle and caring. This is perhaps the best piece of guest star casting in > the history of the series. Todd inhabits Cecrops as if he was born to play > this role. Oh, I see you just said that too. If they'd cast him as Ulysses, now, that ep could have been altogether different. >> You know, in a funny way you two are actually convincing me that they cast the right actor after all. There was a boyish quality about his emotions -- a superficiality perhaps borne of Ulysses leaving Ithaca and his wife as a teenager, returning 10 years later with perhaps the same notion of love, without having "grown" in that way. We believe that he can want to give up his wife for the strange warrior woman he almost instantly becomes infatuated with. Xena kind of treats him as tho she is years older -- with a certain delicacy on one hand and "tough love" on the other. Her adult-adult conversation with him about responsibility at the end is like teacher to student. She still has to say, "go back to your wife." I think we were dealing more with infatuation in LM, not deep "soulmate" love. Todd exudes too much depth, experience and wisdom for that. His decision about his wife might've been more tortured, lending a "heaviness" the ep didn't need. Some fans thought D'Aquino (?) wasn't "all that" in terms of portraying a love interest for Xena. But the more I think about it, the more appropriate I think the shallowness we saw in the actor we got -- the somewhat boyish charm and self-centeredness that required Xena to make the choice he should've made himself. Just as she later recogized the ruthlessness in Antony, she chose the "right" decision over her own feelings -- which turned out to be "right" for her in terms of suitability for someone with her own depth, values and sense of honor. There was no real "match" for her, other than Gabrielle (subtext or not). - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #288 **************************************