From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #280 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, September 22 2003 Volume 03 : Number 280 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] The Price [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re: The Price ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] [hudsonleick] Hudson Leick News Update (fwd) [ On Saturday 20 September 2003 18:01, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >I remember when I watched the opening scenes, I didn't find Xena's initial > >panic believable. Surely she'd faced ruthless opponents before who dressed > >strangely and seemed to kill senselessly. Their numbers didn't appear > >greater, nor their tactics unusual. It's just now hitting me that Xena > >wasn't on the run because of them, but because of her own ignorance, her > >fear of the unknown. > > I don't think it was fear of the unknown. It was just that, so far as Xena > > knew, the Horde didn't want to negotiate, they didn't want to compromise, > they didn't want a truce or a standoff, they simply wanted to kill people. > > It meant that surrender was not an option. >> Exactly -- "so far as Xena knew." As Cheryl suggested, this "knowledge" was based on Xena's assumptions about the Horde based on her previous experiences with them. She'd fought others she believed didn't want to negotiate and simply wanted to kill people, yet she'd still considered them human beings with motivations she could understand and work with. For whatever reasons, she chose not to see the Horde that way, so reacted to them as opponents where a fight to the death was the only option. > > A bit like the aliens in 'Alien(s)'. They were scary, not so much because > of their horrifying appearance, but because they couldn't be communicated > with, they couldn't be frightened off, they just wanted to kill everybody > (or > use them for incubating their eggs, which amounted to the same result only > slowly).>> Again, the point is that we tend not to fear those we believe we can reason with, who want to live as much as we do. The Horde and Aliens were doing what was perfectly reasonable to them -- protecting their own interests just as their enemies were doing. > > >This was one enemy she hadn't been interested in > >learning about, didn't *want* to understand. And that was her greatest > >weakness -- allowing her anger, hate and disgust to blind her to what might > >make them "tick." > > > >I always credited Gabrielle with helping give Xena a different perspective > >in this ep. I thought it was "nice," but a bit unrealistic, that Gabs got > >to do her Red Cross thing. > > I found it - umm, preachy and irritating. Here's Xena trying to save their > > lives and Gabs is nitpicking ;) >> Yes, the presentation made me feel a little like that as well. However, I now see an underlying logic that Gabs' "nitpicking" was in fact the kind of understanding of the enemy that Xena needed to do to save their lives and which she normally would've incorporated into her strategic thinking. > > > >It seemed a fairly convenient plot device to > >give Xena an opening. While that may still be true, what strikes me is that > >Gabriells's recognition of the Horde's humanity wasn't simply idealistic. > >It was a ne cessary part of an effective resolution -- "effective" in terms > >of minimizing the loss of lives, time and resources, of achieving a > >resolution that both sides could walk away from mutually satisfied -- at > >least for the moment. > > Maybe, but I still think Gabs was motivated by idealism. >. Yes, perhaps for her. What I meant was that her "idealism" was usually a practical component of Xena's approach to figuring out how best to deal with someone -- if in fact the only goal is not simply to obliterate them in a fight to the death. > > > >I'd also found Xena's sudden confidence a little superficial. I'd thought, > >"So she knows they're asking for water when they're dying and want to take > >care of their wounded or dying. Why should that make them less scarier > >than before?" Well, they didn't change. Xena's perception of them did. > >She connected with the parts of them that were like her. > > No, it *does* make them a lot less scary. It shows that they have 'human > weaknesses' and that opens up the possibility of communication and > negotiation. > > I agree, it was Xena's perception of them that changed. I think 'the parts > > of them that were like her' is over-personalising it, though. >> We're saying the same thing. I simply meant something like the "human weaknesses" you refer to. Remember, Xena wasn't exactly Ms. Compassionate when she first encountered the Horde, so it's not surprising she didn't see that in them. But even as Reformed Xena she didn't focus on their compassion, as maybe Gabrielle might. The water incident allows her to connect with them on a level she understands best -- as warrors with a sense of honor, like herself. Yes, that's "personalizing," but isn't that what we do when we see how someone is like us in some way? > > >If she could > >understand that, then she could understand them sufficiently to come up > >with a workable plan. Now I appreciate why she didn't fear them as she had > >before. She was back in "analyzing" mode, which always preceded fighting > >mode when she was at her best. She was not using Gabrielle's idealism, > >trying it out because it was the "good" thing. She was returning to her > >usual strategically astute self. Now both her fear and her confidence ring > >true for me. > > Nicely put. The discovery that the enemy had concerns for their comrades > opened up the possibility of compromise, or even just coming to a stand-off. > > While the enemy were just mindless killing machines, that possibility was > not > there. >> Yes. The difference is that Evil Xena might not have opened her mind to that possibility. Even many animals try to protect their dead and injured form predators. Evil Xena, bent on destroying whomever was in her path, might have chosen to see the Horde on that primitive level, rather than as warriors capable of some code of honor and deserving of the chance to demonstrate it. > > > >I'm sure all that was obvious to many folks, but I recall that there were > >others (like me) who loved the ep, yet thought Gabs' Red Cross thing tied > >things up a little too neatly. The WP seemed a little too > >uncharacteristically impressed. > > Yep, quite so. I just blamed it all on the subtext. ;)>> LOL! I blamed it on trying to make a point about seeing the enemy as humans, on Gabs' influence on helping Xena see that. As I said, I wasn't taking into account all the other times Xena showed her awareness of that for practical reasons, as a necessary part of waging battles where more people might end up alive than dead. To me, Xena was a control freak. I see it as quite characteristic that she'd fear what she thought she had no way of controlling -- that reduced her to either fleeing or fighting on the enemies' terms, thereby becoming what she feared. That's exactly what was happening to her when she became more like the animal that uses its own as bait, shows little compassion for the wounded, crawling through the dirt in search of prey it can use in some way and then discard. > > >The arguments were about whether "kill 'em > >all" or "love 'em all" was more appropriate in war. Thanks to you, I see > >this ep more as about fear being a greater enemy than "the enemy." > > I think a certain amount of 'enlightened self-interest' would be more > appropriate than either of those extremes.>> Agreed, regardless of what we call it. Xena thought she'd have to choose the former extreme -- either/or, rather than elements of both/and -- so was ready to sacrifice that part of herself capable of responding in some other way. > > Maybe I'll be able to watch the ep with a bit less annoyance next time ;) > > > Yes, Cheryl's insights have given me a much deeper appreciation for the ep, by allowing me to ge underneath the didactic aspects. Being a Xena girl, I like that it now "fits" better with my concept of Xena whose own worst enemy was inside -- her fears, doubts, anger, arrogance, self-loathing, etc. This ep is now one of those I'll think of in terms of her extraordinary commitment to overcoming all that, to opening herself up to the many strengths of the "enlightened warrior" she sought to be. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:15:50 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Price - ----- Original Message ----- > > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:03:39 +1200 > From: cr > Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Price > > On Saturday 20 September 2003 18:01, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > > I found it - umm, preachy and irritating. Here's Xena trying to save their > lives and Gabs is nitpicking ;) > A lot of people found Gabrielle annoying in this episode and possibly ungrateful. Gabrielle however is just as scared as Xena is. Her greatest fear however is not that the Horde will kill her but that the situation will destroy the Xena she knows. Gabrielle isn't arguing to save the Horde as much as she arguing with Xena to save herself. She is appalled at what Xena has become. She wants Xena to find a solution to their problem based on Xena's humanity. Xena after all may be trying to save everyone's life but she has said that she is mostly concerned about dying like a warrior. Xena's fight to the death battle plan isn't really going to save them - it's designed to take as many of the Horde with them when they do die. Gabrielle may not consciously recognize this but she instinctively knows that what Xena is doing won't save them. She wants Xena do stop fighting long enough to understand her enemy. That's what happens in the truce. Xena stops fighting long enough to formulate a new plan that saves everyone. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:35:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] [hudsonleick] Hudson Leick News Update (fwd) Some more Hudson news... :) -Sarah- - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:46:13 -0400 From: malaurie@twinight.org Reply-To: hudsonleick@yahoogroups.com To: hudsonleick@yahoogroups.com Subject: [hudsonleick] Hudson Leick News Update I was asked to please pass this along: Hudson recently did the voice over for a video game called EverQuest. The game will be available around Christmas 2003. Her character is the Queen. The game will be available on Playstation II. You all know about the TV Guide interview. We do not know the release date yet. Malaurie Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:44:51 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Yay, I Got My S2 DVDS! Well, thanks to the research of fellow members, I sent my Amazon DVDs back and got the ones from Best Buy yesterday. Spent last night reviewing the ep commentaries and the standalone LL, ROC and RT session. I'd hoped the latter had the three of them together, but it was interesting hearing their separate comments anyway. Even though they repeat some things I've heard before, they often seem to have a slightly different perspective in hindsight. One interesting note that I don't recall seeing mentioned before: the blurb inside includes the line, "Through it all we watch her 'partnership' with Gabrielle begin to blossom." I love how the quotes around "partnership" let us know the writer was aware of the many interpretations of the relationship. Also, don't know if Sharon had a hand in picking some of the selections for the photo gallery, but they are wonderfully well rounded in terms of the main characters and X&G relationship. There are even a couple of shots with perspectives I don't recall seeing in the particular eps. It's funny, but watching the ep commentaries, I had mixed emotions. Naturally I loved seeing our girls and hearing them react to particular scenes. On the other hand, it had sort of a "twilight zone" feel for me. Lucy does indeed look like a totally different person from her Xena days -- good for helping her transition to new characters, but weird in its way. It was also like hearing someone else talk about experiences she'd gotten second hand. Lucy's notorious for not recalling details, so it's more like, "Wow, look at that," than ROC's generally more analytical comments about the acting or production aspects. I guess I hope they do all the commentaries for the other seasons as soon as possible, before they're too far removed from what happened. A part of me also doesn't want to think of LL&ROC constantly having to return to the past, when it's obvious they're both quite happy with their opportunities to move on and satisfy other dreams. I, for one, won't be disappointed if neither attends more Xena cons, not that I went to them anyway. They're not (as Lucy frequently says) the same fresh-faced young women I got accustomed to in the past. I love their maturity, but it's a bit jolting to see two different people talk about what their former selves did. Made mre realize I need to let the earlier LL&ROC go, so I can truly appreciate them as their current and future selves. - -- Ife P.S. So far I've fast forwarded disks through "For Whom the Bell Tolls." I found some of those glitches somebody talked about on "Warrior ... Princess ... Tramp." The picture freezes a few times and/or has bad pixels in one section. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #280 **************************************