From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #279 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, September 21 2003 Volume 03 : Number 279 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] The Price [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Price [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 02:01:12 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Price In a message dated 9/19/2003 8:16:41 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > As we said Xena's first instinct is to flee these warriors. As she > confesses > to Gabrielle she doesn't understand these men. She doesn't know what they > want > or why they fight - all she knows is that they are incredibly savage and she > can't fight them. This must be a terrible blow to Xena's warrior pride - she > can't fight, and flight is the only possibility. >> You know, I love this ep too and have rewatched it many times. But what you say here never really hit me before -- that Xena's fear is rooted in not understanding the Horde. Yes, her inability to see them as "human," with motivations she could relate to, was obviously an important part of the story. (I acepted it in on sort of a "Yeah, yeah, we should all see each other as people ....oooo, isn't Xena stunning when she's so feral?" level. Heh.) But I was so caught up in Xena's surprising response that I forgot how much her extraordinary competence was based on her knowledge of her enemies. She was a student of human nature, always confident she could figure out how to best deal with someone, using their own interests as her weapon. As self-reliant, willful and physically skilled as she was, her greatest strength was her brain, her curiosity and need to learn everything she could about her world and the people she faced. I remember when I watched the opening scenes, I didn't find Xena's initial panic believable. Surely she'd faced ruthless opponents before who dressed strangely and seemed to kill senselessly. Their numbers didn't appear greater, nor their tactics unusual. It's just now hitting me that Xena wasn't on the run because of them, but because of her own ignorance, her fear of the unknown. This was one enemy she hadn't been interested in learning about, didn't *want* to understand. And that was her greatest weakness -- allowing her anger, hate and disgust to blind her to what might make them "tick." I always credited Gabrielle with helping give Xena a different perspective in this ep. I thought it was "nice," but a bit unrealistic, that Gabs got to do her Red Cross thing. It seemed a fairly convenient plot device to give Xena an opening. While that may still be true, what strikes me is that Gabriells's recognition of the Horde's humanity wasn't simply idealistic. It was a ne cessary part of an effective resolution -- "effective" in terms of minimizing the loss of lives, time and resources, of achieving a resolution that both sides could walk away from mutually satisfied -- at least for the moment. Gabrielle didn't give Xena some new insight, however. She forced Xena to let go of the biases that prevented her from "wanting" to see the whole picture, from using her greatest strength. I'd also found Xena's sudden confidence a little superficial. I'd thought, "So she knows they're asking for water when they're dying and want to take care of their wounded or dying. Why should that make them less scarier than before?" Well, they didn't change. Xena's perception of them did. She connected with the parts of them that were like her. If she could understand that, then she could understand them sufficiently to come up with a workable plan. Now I appreciate why she didn't fear them as she had before. She was back in "analyzing" mode, which always preceded fighting mode when she was at her best. She was not using Gabrielle's idealism, trying it out because it was the "good" thing. She was returning to her usual strategically astute self. Now both her fear and her confidence ring true for me. I'm sure all that was obvious to many folks, but I recall that there were others (like me) who loved the ep, yet thought Gabs' Red Cross thing tied things up a little too neatly. The WP seemed a little too uncharacteristically impressed. The arguments were about whether "kill 'em all" or "love 'em all" was more appropriate in war. Thanks to you, I see this ep more as about fear being a greater enemy than "the enemy." Got any more old reviews you want to drag out? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:03:39 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Price On Saturday 20 September 2003 18:01, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > I remember when I watched the opening scenes, I didn't find Xena's initial > panic believable. Surely she'd faced ruthless opponents before who dressed > strangely and seemed to kill senselessly. Their numbers didn't appear > greater, nor their tactics unusual. It's just now hitting me that Xena > wasn't on the run because of them, but because of her own ignorance, her > fear of the unknown. I don't think it was fear of the unknown. It was just that, so far as Xena knew, the Horde didn't want to negotiate, they didn't want to compromise, they didn't want a truce or a standoff, they simply wanted to kill people. It meant that surrender was not an option. A bit like the aliens in 'Alien(s)'. They were scary, not so much because of their horrifying appearance, but because they couldn't be communicated with, they couldn't be frightened off, they just wanted to kill everybody (or use them for incubating their eggs, which amounted to the same result only slowly). > This was one enemy she hadn't been interested in > learning about, didn't *want* to understand. And that was her greatest > weakness -- allowing her anger, hate and disgust to blind her to what might > make them "tick." > > I always credited Gabrielle with helping give Xena a different perspective > in this ep. I thought it was "nice," but a bit unrealistic, that Gabs got > to do her Red Cross thing. I found it - umm, preachy and irritating. Here's Xena trying to save their lives and Gabs is nitpicking ;) > It seemed a fairly convenient plot device to > give Xena an opening. While that may still be true, what strikes me is that > Gabriells's recognition of the Horde's humanity wasn't simply idealistic. > It was a ne cessary part of an effective resolution -- "effective" in terms > of minimizing the loss of lives, time and resources, of achieving a > resolution that both sides could walk away from mutually satisfied -- at > least for the moment. Maybe, but I still think Gabs was motivated by idealism. > I'd also found Xena's sudden confidence a little superficial. I'd thought, > "So she knows they're asking for water when they're dying and want to take > care of their wounded or dying. Why should that make them less scarier > than before?" Well, they didn't change. Xena's perception of them did. > She connected with the parts of them that were like her. No, it *does* make them a lot less scary. It shows that they have 'human weaknesses' and that opens up the possibility of communication and negotiation. I agree, it was Xena's perception of them that changed. I think 'the parts of them that were like her' is over-personalising it, though. > If she could > understand that, then she could understand them sufficiently to come up > with a workable plan. Now I appreciate why she didn't fear them as she had > before. She was back in "analyzing" mode, which always preceded fighting > mode when she was at her best. She was not using Gabrielle's idealism, > trying it out because it was the "good" thing. She was returning to her > usual strategically astute self. Now both her fear and her confidence ring > true for me. Nicely put. The discovery that the enemy had concerns for their comrades opened up the possibility of compromise, or even just coming to a stand-off. While the enemy were just mindless killing machines, that possibility was not there. > I'm sure all that was obvious to many folks, but I recall that there were > others (like me) who loved the ep, yet thought Gabs' Red Cross thing tied > things up a little too neatly. The WP seemed a little too > uncharacteristically impressed. Yep, quite so. I just blamed it all on the subtext. ;) > The arguments were about whether "kill 'em > all" or "love 'em all" was more appropriate in war. Thanks to you, I see > this ep more as about fear being a greater enemy than "the enemy." I think a certain amount of 'enlightened self-interest' would be more appropriate than either of those extremes. Maybe I'll be able to watch the ep with a bit less annoyance next time ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #279 **************************************