From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #271 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, September 13 2003 Volume 03 : Number 271 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 1 [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Some Tarzan news ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] Xena commentries ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena commentries [cjlnh@webtv.net (Cheryl LaScola)] [chakram-refugees] Kathryn Morris's new show ["Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 1 On Friday 12 September 2003 09:22, KTL wrote: > On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > > From: KTL > > > > > > > > > > > Previously on this thread: > > Cheryl said: > > > > As Lucy says in the > > > > commentary Xena is rehearsing her death and this is her deathbed > > > > confession - she loves Gabrielle. > > I answered: > > > Oh honey, you done been watching this with your HLAK (Hot Lesbian > > > Action Knob) turned WAY up, ain'tcha? > > > > > > What Lucy says in the commentary is: > > > > > > "I think this is Xena's practice run at death. Cause she knows she > > > won't be able to go through it, with Gabrielle. So she's doing it now > > > so that Gabrielle knows what it might have been like later." > > > > > > End of quote > > > > Yes that is the end of the quote but you have to admit there is a > > confession of love in this scene. "If I only had thirty seconds to live, > > this is how I would live them - looking into your eyes" > > It's a beautiful scene. Xena was always the most eloquent character in > the show. I loved her way with words. And the way Lucy said them. > > You know, I just realized that even THEN Xena says as she talks to Akemi > as she makes her preparations for death, "Akemi, I know what I must do. > But I'm afraid that this day what's done may not be undone." So Xena's > twitchy sense was working full time by this part of the ep-and this is > before she's even dead and way before Akemi shares the "If you don't stay > dead these guys continue to suffer" news. > > While I think that Xena was the most eloquent character, I think Akemi was > certainly the best poet. I wonder who wrote those various verses she > writes for Xena. I've done a cursory search online and nothing popped up, > so I think either they are original or they're from some Japanese text > perhaps. Wherever they're from, they're lovely. > > > This isn't exactly two good > > buddies saying farewell to one another. > > Depends upon how much they love each other. I wasn't at my mother's > death. I've imagined many times what it was like when she died. And wished > I had been there to have helped, or at the very least to have looked into > her eyes and eased her final moments on earth in any way I could have. > > > > If Xena is practicing for her death > > > then she has decided to say something very important to Gabrielle and > > what she is saying is that she wants to die with the image of her before > > her. That'w what happens in the last battle. Xena is dying with > > Gabrielle's name on her lips and her image before her. > > Lucy is saying that Xena wants Gabrielle to see what her death will be > like because she isn't going to be there for it. PAY ATTENTION! ;-> > > And sure, you can say that you see it as Xena saying, "My preferred death > would be to be with you, looking into your eyes as I died." > And I think that's a valid interpretation. > > But Xena has also said a number of times that she wants to die the way she > lived-as a warrior. And in FIN she does. And then when she decides to stay > dead--she watches the sunset-she STILL doesn't spend her > final-moments-in-this-realm looking into Gabrielle's eyes. Uh-uh. > > > > She isn't thinking of Hercules, or > > > Borias or her children she is thinking of Gabrielle. > > Well hell, almost everybody else in her life is dead! Even Hercules is > probably already in Olympus, courtesy of his...er whoops, dead father. > Hmmmm. In the real myth, Zeus takes Hercules up to Olympus at the end. > Wonder how Hercules ends up on Tapert's version of the myth. Guess we'll > never know now since last we saw, he was just walking off into the sunset > with his little boy toy. Umm, nope, God Fearing Child came after Full Circle. GFC was the true finale of the Herc series, IMO. (How do I know? Because, at the end of Full Circle, Zeus and Hera were still alive. By the end of GFC they were dead.) > And everybody knows what a pill Eve is. Would YOU want to die thinking of > Eve? That'd be like thinking of Tammy Faye Bakker whining about her god > as you died, for crying out loud. WAY too much aggravation. It's gotta be > aggravating enough to die, without thinking of whinging goody-two-shoes as > you go. > > You know, you gotta Gabrielle credit though-she's just about the only one > left standing at the end of the show. She even beats Xena out on that > score. > > > > Lucy has a very intriguing and imaginative intellect. I love to > > > hear her analyse what was going on in Xena's mind. > > > > Yes it is always interesting who obejective actors are when discussing > > their characters. They have such an ineterstin ability to see them as > > people in their own right. Xena would of course do this otr that. She > > never seems to say I decided Xena sould do this or that - it is as if > > Xena had a kind of will of her own. > > That grrl just never REALLY accepted Lao Ma's teachings... > > > > It was only with the introduction of Evil Xena in the Debt that XWP was > > > transformed from being a cheesy parody of myths into being a true myth > > > all of its own, featuring a hero who was extraordinarily original and > > > compelling. > > > > You're right about how Evil Xena was introduced. For two years we hear > > about bad Xena was and I don't think the audience really ever imagines > > that she is all that bad. Then we meet her and in Destiny she isn't > > really that horrible. A bit spoiled and full of herself but then there > > is that transformation in the end when you see madness take hold of her. > > In the Debt we meet the results of Xena's transformationa and I think the > > audience is stunned. She is corrupt. Nasty and greedy but yet there is > > still a spark of humanity. You root for Lo Mao to nurture that spark and > > you expect Xena to make the right choice then Xena obstinately choses the > > wrong path again. Then you watch her over and over take the wrong fork > > in the road and you marvel that this woman finally turns from evil and > > wants to remake her life. > > I made a number of converts in work to XWP during season five. And of > course once they got into the show, they wanted to see the earlier eps. So > every Saturday as we waited for our tourists to check out of the dorm, we > would have little Xena ep-watching marathons. One day a new coordinator > came in, laughed at us for watching Xena and then sat down with us to > watch Maternal Instincts. Well, ya couldn't have hit him with a better ep if you'd tried. That one has *everything*. > And at the end of it, he came up to me where I was saying goodbye to some > of our tourists. He was literally slack-jawed with disbelieve and kept > saying, "She didn't forgive her! She didn't say, 'Oh, it's okay-stop > crying. I know you didn't mean it. I know you're sorry that your lies led > to my son's death. Here, let me give you a hug'. She didn't forgive her! > They didn't walk off together! She didn't forgive her!" The tourists > looked both bewildered and intrigued as I shooed them off to get into > their cab. Heh. > And the coordinator was exactly right. With the multi ep arcs, Tapert > never went for the simple shallow resolution. The stories were never > neatly wrapped up with all strings cut and tucked and all edges evenly > aligned. Actions had repercussions that might not show up for years. Many > of the decisions made reverberated throughout the show ever after. Heh! I was discussing just this point with a fellow Xena / Farscape fan, and complaining that Gabrielle got away with far too much (as in Gurkhan - is anybody surprised? :) and that, if one of the Farscape characters had done that, they'd be hearing all about it for the next six eps. In other words, actions had consequences. In Xena, rather more often, actions only seem to have consequences for Xena, and they don't go away. I will admit, I love these bits of continuity. Specially, I have to add, when TPTB get it right ;) In a way, it's a little present for the fans who have been paying attention. > With Xena's story, Tapert and Stewart created the most complex, > multi-layered, morally ambiguous, loaded-down-with-dense history > characters I have ever seen on my little TV screen. You don't watch Farscape, do you? ;) > And then Rob gave her > to Lucy to play. And Lucy took that character and ran into television > history with her. I will happily admit there - *nobody* else (including on Farscape) has the impact that Lucy does as Xena. > > It is a powerful story of redemption. Xena didn't change because she > > was simply always just a good girl trying to break free of evil > > influences. She was the evil influence and through sheer force of will > > she turned from it. She decides to use her the power she had for good > > simply because she decides that is what's best. I never believed that > > she was looking for salvation for herself. > > Now that's a very good point. I always say that the basic story of XWP is > Xena's road to redemption. But I never meant it as her seeking atonement > to better her own afterlife. No, she's out to make atonement and > reparations to those whom she's hurt in the past. She's trying to make up > to them for what she did to them in any way that she can. In other words, she's just taking each day as it comes. No long-range plan. I think that's fitting. It's villains like Caesar and Dahak who have the long-range plans to conquer the world. That almost sounds like a contradiction. That I like the bits of history that come back to bite the characters, but I don't care that the ad-hoc things Xena does today may come back to haunt her in years to come. (Not inevitably. Sometimes we get away with it). But it isn't really a contradiction. Shit happens, all the time. And sometimes, the results are long-term. In fact, because of the infinite capacity of shit to happen, long-range plans don't usually work as intended, if at all. Maybe this is why I don't see any great Message in the ending of FIN. Some folks (obviously not lfe and cande?) felt that Xena's entire saga had a great moral attached, that she was working towards her reward, and her death cancelled out all that and made a nonsense of it. Others felt that FIN was the fitting culmination of her saga. I think that Xena's life *was* the message. That all her adventures added up to the whole, of which her death was just a part. And that the exact way that FIN ended didn't make a great deal of difference. Call it pragmatic, I guess. > In FIN of course, when she dies so those 40,000 souls can go to a state of > grace, she is truly the redeemer, in the same sense that the Christian > faith makes Christ the redeemer by his death on the cross. XWP always had > references to Christian themes and symbols. And the final symbol is of > Xena the Christ figure, dying (staying dead) so that all those souls can > attain a state of grace and peace. > > And of course, in the end this sacrifice does, as Akemi says, redeem Xena > too. Because in the next life, she's the Mother of Peace. Still fighting > for the little guy but this time only with her words and example, not with > her words, example AND chakram. I was about to say that, of course, that next-life thing contradicts my pragmatic approach. But actually, it doesn't. Xena only had to do her best from day to day (or in fact, be a warrrior, as Krishna told her and she decided in Ides). In that respect, what happened in FIN didn't really matter for Xena's long-term future (though it certainly changed her immediate career prospects ;) so long as she did the best she could, win or lose. > > I always thought she was struck suddenly by a kind > > for empathy for her victims and suddenly she knew what they suffered and > > wanted to make that right as best she could. I always thought Evil Xena > > was almost in a kind of psycotic state - disconnected from the people > > surrounding her never quit able to understand their sufferring. Once > > Xena is well the magnitude of her selfishness and narcissism overwhelms > > her and she is determined to rejoin society and act as unselfishly as > > possible to make up for her prior trangressions. > > Oh-you already said what I said above. Very well too--smile. > > KT I can't resist a 'me too' on that. I don't know about the psychotic state, but I'm sure that Good Xena felt sympathy for people. And that's what made her feel so guilty for what she had done. Not that it was 'wrong', but it had hurt people. Oh, cande already said that. Deja vu. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:35:58 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Some Tarzan news I was reading an article on MaryD's site about Tarzan. I understand the pilot underwhelmed the critics and perhaps now we know why Lucy was signed. TPTB are obviously going to surround the model with strong acting talent and hope the guy can learn to act while the supporting cast carries the load for a year. This was actually what happen with Xena since no one actually knew if LL could carry a show they hired ROC because she was a known quanity and had some good acting credits hoping if things were bad she could carry a lot of the exposition. Of course everyone was lucky - Lucy could act and she and Ren had great chemistry and TV history was made. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:48:34 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena commentries ## # # # ## I got my Best Buy set and having watching the interviews and commentries. Rob is the best commentator followed by Renee. Lucy is funny but I suspect once she did an episode she just wiped the slate clean. Some interesting points. Return of Callisto: Lucy: Hudson was a great fighting partner she never had to worry Hudson would hit her accidently. She also said ROC was equally as good. Neither Lucy and Ren remembered the wedding kiss. They were absolutely hystical at that poing. Lucy: My god! Xena slipped her some tongue. It seems they are finally understanding why people though there was subtext in the show. A Day In The Life This is one of their favorite episodes. Lucy feels the comedies have stood up better than the dramas (I disagree). Rob is funny about Michael Hurst; He said he really did a great job on this episodes but sometimes he just didn't understand what Michael was doing in other episodes (hmmm? Which ones?). Alison Wall won best supporting actress for this episode in NZ (how can an actress win an award for a show not shown in the country where said award is given?). LL and ROC seem to be having a great time doing their commentary. The interview is wonderul but I wish they would have had all three together for that feature. I do have a gripe though. My DVDs are scratched and I have trouble with the action freezing. I will either have to send them back or take a trip to the Best Buy 30 miles up the road (but not before I finish the commentaries). So guys check your DVDs. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:51:40 -0400 (EDT) From: cjlnh@webtv.net (Cheryl LaScola) Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena commentries Although I agree Rob gives the most technical "background" to the eps I personally love the commentary when it is just Lucy and Renee.....they seem more open and fun loving, kind of "girls just wanna have fun" atmosphere. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed Rob's take on the episode commentaries he was part of, but far more fun watching LL & ROC being surprised at what was playing out.. Thanks for the tip on the DVD's..guess I will have to spend the weekend ensuring quality control.. Cheryl (J) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:04:37 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Kathryn Morris's new show You know there is something appealing about Najar being a crime crusader. I hope she bring that touch of fanaticism to the role she is now going to play - - maybe she will be an Ubernajar. Sunday nights might be a very good night for TV - Najar at eight and Lucy at nine CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #271 **************************************