From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #266 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, September 8 2003 Volume 03 : Number 266 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #261 [IfeRae@aol.co] Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Amarice lookalike [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amarice lookalike [] Re: [chakram-refugees] "Charming" homage to Xena ["S. Wilson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:28:57 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging In a message dated 9/7/2003 5:35:47 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: Ife wrote: > >Mind you, I didn't say I agree with what Gabs did or why. (I believe I > >called it "stupid.") I'm saying Xena essentially made lemonade out of the > >lemon Gabs presented her with. If Ming hadn't been such an idiot, the > >lemonade wouldn't have left a bad taste in Xena's mouth. By allowing Gabs > >to think the dethroning was sufficient, Xena essentially got away with > >doing what Gabs disapproved of -- murder. > > Umm. If Xena had got him at the end of Episode 1, I suppose we could call > it > murder. At the end of Episode 2, and in all the circumstances, I don't > think I'd call it murder, any more than the people she'd killed in battle. > > There was considerable provocation from Ming. ;)>> Sorry, provocation aside, the battle was over. Ming wasn't threatening her or anybody else, regardless of his (to me unlikely) potential to do so. She could've let his people take care of him, like she encouraged Melosa to do with Petracus (?) or Toris to do with Cortez. She could've turned her back on him, like she later did with that Roman (Caesar's rival), and given him the chance to attack her. No, he was a beaten, unarmed and cowardly juvenile delinquent who was no match for her whatsoever. No doubt she stalked up to him and killed him where he stood. Maybe he deserved it. It's still murder in my book. > Yes, I don't think Xena deliberately missed him. (Though if she'd meant > to > hit him, I guess she would have. Why didn't she?) >> Maybe because she was in her "empty yourself of will" mode, firing off those bolts as though in a haze. For the most part she was fighting his guards like normal and mainly using the bolts to topple the building. He had enough time to see that she was gearing up to aim at him, though I don't know if she purposely telegraphed her intentions so he could dive out the way. She certainly didn't seem to care one way or the other. I have to admit, I loved the ambiguity of the ending. On one hand, I felt the reformed hero I'd come to know did indeed mean to walk away from someone she had every reason to kill (in a battle for good, as well as personal revenge). On the other, I felt the flawed hero I'd come to love didn't pass up the opportunity Ming practically forced on her to be the bad girl he admired so much. Part of me was disturbed that she killed him. The other part was saying, "You go, girl!" I suppose I should pray for a more peaceful heart, eh? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:28:55 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #261 In a message dated 9/7/2003 5:35:49 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > The brooch also had a lot of sentimental value to Xena, which > >also made the moment emotional. > > Yes. Odd that Xena then left it buried in Ming's brain. Maybe she didn't > > really want it back after that. >> LOL! I think it served its purpose. It was Lao Ma's after all. Xena probably remembered it fondly as ending up where Lao Ma felt it best belonged. > >Lao Ma sending the message ('make him > small') didn't particularly imply that he should be killed. OTOH, as you > noted, it was sent to Xena, and Lao Ma must have known with a high > probability what Xena would be likely to do about it.>> Or the near certainty that she wouldn't hesitate killing if she had to. Bad as he was, he was still the child Lao Ma couldn't kill herself. Perhaps she prayed for a miracle, as Xena later ended up doing when she had the chance to kill Eve. Unfortunately, Lao Ma wasn't the star of her own show, so (like Gabs) she didn't get no miracles -- just a WP willing to skewer bad seeds. > <(Remember, up until then, I don't think Xena > >>was aware that Ming had executed Lao Ma, though she may have had her > >>suspicions). >> > > (Incidentally, I was wrong about that - obviously she did know).>> But she didn't know that Ming had done it personally. > > > > >Nope, in the end I didn't see confusion either. Or regret. I believe she > >felt all of what Cherly said -- revenge, loathing and loyalty to Lao Ma -- > >and didn't care which motivation was the most preeminent. In Xena's mind, > >Ming showed his true deprevation and deserved to die regardless of which > >reason. > > Umm, 'depravity', not 'deprivation', I think? ;)>> Yes. Misspelling. > >MING T'IEN No. I did it myself. > > Now that - that obvious 'come-on' of 'it's not true', leading Xena to hope > for a moment that Lao Ma might still be alive - was really twisting the > knife. >> Absolutely. Definitely sounds like a death wish to me -- unconscious, if not intentionally provoking the WP's rage. He wasn't the least swayed by Gabrielle's defense of reformed Xena. He said he knew Xena better than Gabrielle. He was right. > > > >As I said, the last expression on Xena's face is like an unspoken > >snarl. Some fans saw that as "getting something over on" Gabs. I don't > >think it had a thing to do with Gabs, but with Xena's satisfaction at > >skewering Ming, which is why I think her killing him was mostly personal, > >but certainly not confused or repentant. > > > >-- Ife > > The very last moment as she walks out of frame with Gabs? I see it as a > grim expression, possibly caused by the fact she's just lied to Gabs about > killing Ming, and also (I think) that Gabs has just pushed her into saying > "Love you too, Gabrielle" - and I don't think she found that particularly > appropriate, in all the circumstances. "I love you Xena" is a bit of a > set-up line, a sort of moral blackmail. (I'm not putting that very well). > > It's the sort of thing people say when they're demanding a response. I > think > Xena resented having to make that 'Love you too' reply. And it showed in > her face. I think she was slightly disgusted with herself at having fooled > > Gabs, slightly PO'd with Gabs for having put her in a position where she > felt > she had to, probably still PO'd with Gabs for having dropped her in it with > Ming in the first place. >. As I said, I didn't get that at all. Gabs was saying she loved Xena for supposedly being "true" to herself, by not killing Ming, that they'd put each other through Tartarus, but had come out okay. Since that would have been the point of Xena's subterfuge, I don't see why she would take it as manipulative or inappropriate. I think Xena was confirming that she too loved Gabrielle despite everything that happened, though no doubt she felt a twinge that Gabrielle's approval was based on a falsity. I don't agree with some Gabfans who believe Xena's expression at the end was a sarcastic dismissal of Gabs or disrespectful glee that she had fooled Gabs. Nor do I agree with some Xenafans who think Xena was passively aggressively expressing her anger at Gabs. I think Xena truly understood and forgave Gabs for trying to do what Xena counted on Gabs for -- encouraging Xena to resort to violence as a last, rather than first, option. No, I believe her expression at the end was reserved solely for Ming -- a mixture of disgust at what he'd done to Lao Ma and satisfaction that he'd provoked Xena to resort to viiolence after all. > > (Gabs tried the same "I love you" at the end of Maternal Instincts, and > there > it didn't work *at all*.) > I didn't see that as manipulative either. Gabs was again saying she thought they'd be okay. But this time it wasn't Xena's life that Gabs put in jeopardy. It was the life of the one innocent person Xena cared about most -- her child. Gabs could've hung around and tried to convince Xena that the love between them was strong and enough. Instead, she understood the magnitude of what she had done -- unforgivable to Xena and therefore to Gabrielle as well. Gabrielle spoke her heart, just as Xena acted upon hers. I didn't see Gabs as manipulative, so much as a naive victim of her willingness to see the good in people (especially her child and Xena), rather than their potential to do bad. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:46:28 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging On Monday 08 September 2003 17:28, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/7/2003 5:35:47 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Ife wrote: > > >Mind you, I didn't say I agree with what Gabs did or why. (I believe I > > >called it "stupid.") I'm saying Xena essentially made lemonade out of > > > the lemon Gabs presented her with. If Ming hadn't been such an idiot, > > > the lemonade wouldn't have left a bad taste in Xena's mouth. By > > > allowing Gabs to think the dethroning was sufficient, Xena essentially > > > got away with doing what Gabs disapproved of -- murder. > > > > Umm. If Xena had got him at the end of Episode 1, I suppose we could > > call it > > murder. At the end of Episode 2, and in all the circumstances, I don't > > think I'd call it murder, any more than the people she'd killed in > > battle. > > > > There was considerable provocation from Ming. ;)>> > > Sorry, provocation aside, the battle was over. Ming wasn't threatening her > or anybody else, regardless of his (to me unlikely) potential to do so. > She could've let his people take care of him, like she encouraged Melosa to > do with Petracus (?) or Toris to do with Cortez. She could've turned her > back on him, like she later did with that Roman (Caesar's rival), and given > him the chance to attack her. No, he was a beaten, unarmed and cowardly > juvenile delinquent who was no match for her whatsoever. No doubt she > stalked up to him and killed him where he stood. Maybe he deserved it. > It's still murder in my book. Ah. I think a jury would probably pass a 'not guilty' verdict in the circumstances. I prefer to reserve the word 'murder' for unprovoked, gratuitous killing. And he might have been unarmed but I think he proved that, left alive, he would still be dangerous. Lao Ma wanted Xena to rid the country of him. I think he made a pretty good case that there was only one way to do that. I would just have been dismayed and slightly offended if Xena had *not* killed him, after that. > > > Yes, I don't think Xena deliberately missed him. (Though if she'd meant > > to > > hit him, I guess she would have. Why didn't she?) >> > > Maybe because she was in her "empty yourself of will" mode, firing off > those bolts as though in a haze. For the most part she was fighting his > guards like normal and mainly using the bolts to topple the building. He > had enough time to see that she was gearing up to aim at him, though I > don't know if she purposely telegraphed her intentions so he could dive out > the way. She certainly didn't seem to care one way or the other. OK, that works for me. > I have to admit, I loved the ambiguity of the ending. On one hand, I felt > the reformed hero I'd come to know did indeed mean to walk away from > someone she had every reason to kill (in a battle for good, as well as > personal revenge). On the other, I felt the flawed hero I'd come to love > didn't pass up the opportunity Ming practically forced on her to be the bad > girl he admired so much. Part of me was disturbed that she killed him. The > other part was saying, "You go, girl!" I suppose I should pray for a more > peaceful heart, eh? > > -- Ife Of course, TPTB played the same trick with us that Ming played with Xena, though with an opposite effect. That is, Ming led Xena to believe Lao Ma might still be alive, then rudely dashed her hopes. TPTB, right at the end, led us to believe that Ming was still alive (I was starting to groan) then the camera pans round and shows he's a stiff. Yowza!!! I must be warped - I was delighted when I saw that. ;) Actually, some of the irony of that scene is best appreciated on a re-play. For example, the full irony (and the reason for Xena's grim expression) when she says 'I love you' to Gabs at the end of the ep, can only really be fully appreciated when you know she's just iced Ming. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:55:29 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #261 On Monday 08 September 2003 17:28, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/7/2003 5:35:49 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > > The brooch also had a lot of sentimental value to Xena, which > > > also made the moment emotional. > > > > Yes. Odd that Xena then left it buried in Ming's brain. Maybe she > > didn't really want it back after that. >> > > LOL! I think it served its purpose. It was Lao Ma's after all. Xena > probably remembered it fondly as ending up where Lao Ma felt it best > belonged. I love it when you're being sardonic. :) > > > <(Remember, up until then, I don't think Xena > >>was aware that Ming had executed Lao Ma, though she may have had her > >>suspicions). >> > > > > (Incidentally, I was wrong about that - obviously she did know).>> > > But she didn't know that Ming had done it personally. Well, true, that's why Ming was able to shock her. > > It's the sort of thing people say when they're demanding a response. I > > think > > Xena resented having to make that 'Love you too' reply. And it showed > > in her face. I think she was slightly disgusted with herself at having > > fooled > > > > Gabs, slightly PO'd with Gabs for having put her in a position where she > > felt > > she had to, probably still PO'd with Gabs for having dropped her in it > > with Ming in the first place. >. > > As I said, I didn't get that at all. Gabs was saying she loved Xena for > supposedly being "true" to herself, by not killing Ming, that they'd put > each other through Tartarus, but had come out okay. Since that would have > been the point of Xena's subterfuge, I don't see why she would take it as > manipulative or inappropriate. I think Xena was confirming that she too > loved Gabrielle despite everything that happened, though no doubt she felt > a twinge that Gabrielle's approval was based on a falsity. > > I don't agree with some Gabfans who believe Xena's expression at the end > was a sarcastic dismissal of Gabs or disrespectful glee that she had fooled > Gabs. Agreed. (With you ythat is). > Nor do I agree with some Xenafans who think Xena was passively > aggressively expressing her anger at Gabs. On the other hand, I think that was part of it. > I think Xena truly understood > and forgave Gabs for trying to do what Xena counted on Gabs for -- > encouraging Xena to resort to violence as a last, rather than first, > option. No, I believe her expression at the end was reserved solely for > Ming -- a mixture of disgust at what he'd done to Lao Ma and satisfaction > that he'd provoked Xena to resort to viiolence after all. And that was part of it. > > (Gabs tried the same "I love you" at the end of Maternal Instincts, and > > there it didn't work *at all*.) > > I didn't see that as manipulative either. Gabs was again saying she > thought they'd be okay. But this time it wasn't Xena's life that Gabs put > in jeopardy. It was the life of the one innocent person Xena cared about > most -- her child. Gabs could've hung around and tried to convince Xena > that the love between them was strong and enough. Instead, she understood > the magnitude of what she had done -- unforgivable to Xena and therefore to > Gabrielle as well. Gabrielle spoke her heart, just as Xena acted upon hers. > I didn't see Gabs as manipulative, so much as a naive victim of her > willingness to see the good in people (especially her child and Xena), > rather than their potential to do bad. I thought it was, to say the least, very bad timing. And hence futile. Xena: No. No, you lied to me. I trusted you, and you lied to me. And now Solan is dead. My son is dead, because of you. Gabs: I love you, Xena. What reception did she *think* it was going to get? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 02:09:38 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 > Well, that's what M'ing Tzu says. And we know what a liar he is. No, the > threatening of the parent child bond is one of the big themes of XWP. I > saw this as another example of that. Whoops! I meant that's what M'ing T'ien says. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 23:39:18 +1200 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Amarice lookalike I was wandering through K-mart yesterday and I came up standing in front of a pic of Amarice. At least, I was sure it must be a shot from a XWP ep, even though I didn't recognise the shot and couldn't figure why they'd be advertising Xena. She (Amarice) was wearing a typical XWP armband with vaguely XWP-esque designs, not that I remembered her wearing it in XWP. The other characters in the display seemed to include Batman... I wasn't quite sure what they were advertising. There was something about 'Daredevil'. Anyway, to cut a long story short, it seems there's a movie called 'Daredevil' with one Jennifer Garner in it, who looks so remarkably like Amarice it's uncanny. http://us.ent3.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/twentieth_century_fox/daredevil/jennifer_garner/daredevil9-th.jpg Oh, and she's holding sais! I wonder if the producers ever watched Xena? ;) (I wonder if all this has been discussed at length on the XWP lists and just went straight over my head... ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 02:03:36 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > << No snippage of Ife's lovely post--there's just so much to digest and > comment on in there... >> > > Hello? KT? That you? You been on one too many cruises with your seniors? > That's okay. I'll take any compliments when I can. Thanks! > You modest little devil. You KNOW I write you privately all the time expressing my delight in your posts. (Even the ones where you're totally wrong...grin) > > < fringes of power-- I expect that this is why they are "able to size people > up". They need that skill to get along and get done what they want done. > And of course, Akemi uses this skill on the physically powerful Xena also. >> > > Oooo, another good point, in terms of using more subtly subversive ways to > get someone powerful to be their "weapon" or "instrument. In a way, Xena > personifies their own "dark" sides. (Reminds me of your comment about Callisto's > being Xena's shadow.) Xena is someone who can do what they cannot. They see in > her someone they can trust to fulfill their wishes. She doesn't immediately, > but they're right. > Oooooo, I like that "Xena personifies their own 'dark' sides". But I think it applies more to Lao Ma. Of course for Lao Ma, I would say that Lao Tzu pretty much personifies her dark side also. But of course, nobody knows that except us and Xena. And yeah--Lao Ma wants to appear as the gentle, obedient wife. So big ol' lug Xena's gotta be the general, AKA Warrior Princess for her. Akemi though, Akemi kills her father herself. She doesn't have Xena do her dirty work. She does lead Xena to getting the katana because her grandfather says that Xena's sword isn't good enough. Apparently Grandpa expects that Xena will kill Yodoshi. He doesn't seem to have expected Akemi to avenge their deaths personally and use only "The Pinch" to do so. And of course he's wrong about Xena's sword. Xena's sword is good enough to kill even the Lord of the Dark Side. Akemi also asks Xena to bury the ashes which is a thing she obviously can't do for herself. I just don't see Akemi as having much of a dark side. All of the things she does is done in the name of honor. It's all to avenge her family members deaths. Which her society expects of her. > << Wow, immediately I realized that FIN was season six's homage to The Debt, > but I didn't really think about the strong parallels between Lao Ma and > Akemi. >> > > I also saw it as homage to Sins and Destiny. In both of these, we see Xena > encountering young women who will help Xena achieve self-actualization. Xena > rescues Gabrielle, as she did Akemi. Her friendship with them ultimately leads > her on missions of the highest altruism. M'Lila rescues Xena, just as Lao Ma > did. Both of their spirits save her again later, when she is about to die, > by inspiring her to have faith in herself, her love and spiritual power. > > M'Lila and Gabrielle want nothing from Xena except that she live to fulfill > her potential. I have wondered about M'Lila. I mean, without M'Lila, the world would never have had Evil Xena. That makes me wonder just exactly why she came to Xena when she did. Was it just something that happened? Or was some god working on "creating" Evil Xena? And Gabrielle certainly used Xena also. She saw Xena as her ticket out of Poteidia. And forced Xena to take her along by pulling out the "I saved your life" card. She also wants Xena to change to suit her (Gabrielle's) ideas of what kind of a person she should be. As late as Chakram, Gabrielle says, "Xena is everything that I always wanted her to be" and then realizes for like the 20th time that without her dark side, Xena is out of balance and not able to do what she needs to do to make things right. Gabrielle tagged along with Xena for her own purposes--to see the wide world, to have adventures, to get her OE. (Overseas Experience as all good little Kiwi's like to do.) Lao Ma and Akemi do need Xena, but they also speak of her > potential beyond raw power. Each inspired Xena in a different way, > and I see elements of all of them represented in AFIN -- e.g., the > "pinch" (M'Lila) she uses to say goodbye to Gabrielle, the listening > she does in battle -- where she seems to empty herself (Lao Ma) and go > to some other plane that allows her to both focus on her love for > Gabrielle and do physically impossible feats to defeat an army, maybe > by even tapping into the "khami" (?) Akemi spoke of. > What does "focusing on her love for Gabrielle" have to do with anything? Xena is ALWAYS screaming out Gabrielle's name. Along with a number of other people's names at time--it was a constant in many eps. Grrl's a screamer, what can we say? > OOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo. Hmmm. Yes. The minute Alti came into > the yurt, she immediately talked about being driven away from the Amazons > because she was too powerful. And backed up her words with the display of > her power over Anokin. Essentially, "Look, they threw me out. But I brought > along a memento." And immediately captures Xena's interest and attention.>> > > Not to mention sensing that Xena is preggers. Xena seems drawn to Alti as > soon as the witch enters the room. Xena could smell power a mile away. Exactly. Watch Lucy's face when Alti appears. She scans her from head to toe, taking in all the details of the outfit. Slips into her "Ravenous student" deep focus mode (to use your lovely phrase.) > > < that a difference comes in. >> > > I believe Xena may have thought her relationship with Alti would continue as > well, that she'd be able (as the Destroyer of Nations) to benefit from the > power she helped Alti achieve. Remember how Alti tells Xena to imagine how > powerful she'd be with spiritual powers? I doubt being able to visit the Land of > the Dead was the only power Xena had in mind, even though that did ultimately > help her defeat Alti. Yes. I thought so too. But she's not subservient to Alti in the way she is willing to be with Lao Ma. > > << Xena in The Debt seems to me to be ready to > assume a role of lieutenant for Lao Ma. She eagerly offers, "I could > serve you." And Lao Ma answers, "Oh course you can. It's easy to serve > someone you love. You feel it will make them love you more. It's like a > good business investment." (Another Lao Ma/Akemi parallel. Both women > believe that Xena loves them. Or will come to love her, in Akemi's case.) >> > > Actually, I think Lao Ma was acknowledging that Xena had a rather > shallow understanding of love. Oh absolutely. That's what the lecture is about. Exactly. I don't believe she trusted the depth > of that love yet, that she knew it would take time to truly develop > it. She patiently teaches Xena and puts her through some tests first, > only after which she feels enough mutual trust had been established to > heal Xena's legs. She didn't seem all that surprised when Xena rather > quickly succumbed to her old ways, though I don't think Lao Ma wasn't > prepared for Xena to so quickly use her lessons against Lao Ma. (I > love how Xena bows her head and seems to defer to Papa T'ien as she > proposes that dice throw.) I love her line, "And I should say, I belong to myself." YES! > > << She then waits on M'ing Tzu to please Lao Ma. She lets Lao Ma dress her in > "civilian" clothes. She scurries along in her wake like a little puppy. > She kneels patiently beside Lao Ma (after Lao Ma kicks her butt for > kicking Borias' butt.) She's just...subservient, for the one and only time > in the series. Reforming Xena can be very humble. But is never > subservient. Evil Xena was subservient for Lao Ma. Subservient in a way > that seems to me to be unique in her life. And THAT'S what I > find intriguing. I would say that Xena loved Lao Ma far more than she > loved Akemi. >> > > Again, I saw that subservience as superficial and self-serving -- quite > characteristic of Delinquent Xena. She knows there'll be some payoff. I didn't see it that way at all. She IS subservient to Lao Ma. She's willing to be the Warrior Princess to Lao Ma's Queen. And seems to feel proud that Lao Ma has chosen her to be so. I LOVE the looks she and Borias exchange. He's all like, "Warrrrrior Preeencess? Oh, boy, waid'll I tell de boys about dees one." And Xena's all, "Shut up, just shut up a-hoe!" She uses > what she believes Lao Ma wants -- what Lao Ma herself seems to use -- a false > subservience that hides what's underneath. Remember all Lao Ma's talk about > being an "insignificant wife"? I would say that when Xena's showing false subservience, she let's us know it. As when she's crying to Odin because he doesn't trust her. The look over his shoulder tells us she's scamming. Xena's learning that bravado and obviousness > aren't the only or best approaches in all cases. It's not about true humility, > but learning about another tactic, another weapon. > But it wasn't a lesson she kept for very long. So it wasn't a lesson she learned. I think it was an honest response on her part. Lao Ma had saved her life. And her life on the open steppes with Borias was not easy for a disabled woman. I honestly think Xena was totally grateful and this might be part of why she was willing to do Lao Ma's bidding, to have so much patience with Lao Ma's Way (and way of teaching.) Even when she lost patience with herself, she didn't lose it with Lao Ma. > Borias wanted a woman of passion to equal his own, so she used her > body to entice him away from his wife. No doubt she pretended > something deeper with him as she learned strategy and leadership from > him (just as she did with Odun). Alti got to her through Anokin I've always wondered what got left on the hard drive--surely the script had more to say about how Xena had poisoned Anokin's soul. That damn 41 minute deadline... and > probably had Xena nearly eating out of her hand as she taught Xena the > shaman rituals and promised even more knowledge. We didn't see her > being subservient to them in the same degree as with Lao Ma or showing > the same affection, but what I saw with Lao Ma wasn't unique, so much > as the lengths Xena would go to when she wanted knowledge that would > add to her power. I saw it as a true subservience, happening only with Lao Ma and never being repeated again. > > << I just rewatched that scene and yeah you're right--Lao Ma literally > lassos Xena to corral her back to her. I remembered the floating fabric > show, but I didn't realize that Xena for the first time had turned away > when Lao Ma beckoned. >> > > As I say above, Lao Ma didn't at all act betrayed, hurt or even > disappointed. > She treated Xena like a child reacting to the first taste freedom > from the crib by knocking over a lamp -- indulgent, supportive, > showing that she'd love the child anyway. After the thing with > Borias, Lao Ma "spanks" ("tough love," heh heh) Xena, makes her take > a "time out" on the floor while she admonishes her, basically says > Xena can be her little Warrior Princess if she "plays nice," then > leaves her to "make up" with Borias. She knew that Xena didn't love > herself, which meant she didn't understand why someone else would love > her or her own capacity for love. Lao Ma was using a blend of caring, > discipline and the promise of new toys to bring Xena along. I saw > more of a child/parent relationship than adult/adult. Yes. Or subservientee to subservientor. (wink) > > << Perhaps it was as simple as "Xena's legs hurt". And under the protection > of Lao Ma, she felt she could overcome that disability. Shrug.>> > > No, I think Xena had become focused on the inner lessons Lao Ma wanted > her to learn. Yes. Again, Xena as student is a large part of this. Though she never learned Lao Ma's skills very well. I believe the leg thing totally suprised Xena. She > probably thought there'd be less pain, but I don't think she expected > instant '"super gams." I believe Lao Ma knew it was a special gift, > which she reserved for the right time. Oh no, I didn't mean that I thought that Xena expected Lao Ma to heal her legs. I meant just that Xena figured that the palace was a more cushy address than a yurt. AND it has a hot tub! Now that I think about it, she > was giving Xena her legs symbolically as well -- the freedom to do > what she wanted with her physical "wholeness." Xena wouldn't > necessarily need her anymore. It was a "leap of faith" on Lao Ma's > part, which Xena unfortunately did not pass -- not then, anyway. > Yup. Lao Ma overestimated Xena's subservience. (heh heh heh) > Ma's tossing her and Borias around. Her own shallowness and single-minded > > focus on power made her miscalculate her value as compared to the value > Lao Ma > > placed on her son. At the time, she probably thought Lao Ma was stupid for > > making that choice. > > I think she was surprised. She hasn't had Solon yet. She doesn't have the > grizzly bear mother heart yet. It's funny though that she knows that the > key to M'ing Tzu's compliance is to kidnap his son. But she somehow > doesn't extrapolate that to expecting the same son's mother to be as > protective and as willing to do whatever it takes to keep him safe. And to > choose him over anybody else.>> > > I'm not sure she thought about any fatherly devotion, so much as the > importance of an heir to preserving M'ing Tzu's kingdom -- a political > pawn. Well, that's what M'ing Tzu says. And we know what a liar he is. No, the threatening of the parent child bond is one of the big themes of XWP. I saw this as another example of that. As to Lao Ma, she'd given Xena the impression that the boy > couldn't be considered "hers" anymore, despite her obvious feelings > for him. But she kept trying. For him, she withstood public humiliation. As Xena says, "Yeah, nothing seems to faze you. Except that boy I kidnapped. Everytime he ignores you, that cuts deep." And Lao Ma answers, "I know, it's foolish of me. Just because we give birth to them doesn't mean we own them." And this kills her. Her response to Xena trying to kill him shows she does love him. Hell, her letting him kill her shows she loves him. Besides, things would be fine for him if the two families > could be joined peacefully. If Xena was surprised, I think it was > more because she thought Lao Ma would choose unchallenged power vs. > worrying about where M'ing Tien's loyalties might lie in the future. And she was wrong. > In that scenario, Lao Ma would see more value in a Warrior Princess > to preserve that power. Again, I just don't see Xena at that point as > having some understanding of love that goes much beyond using and be > used. It's hard with the flashbacks for me to remember sometimes just > how far Xena came in that regard. > > -- Ife I think Xena remembers what love is like. I think she never stopped loving and grieving over Lyceus, for example. Nor certainly M'Lila. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:42:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amarice lookalike > Anyway, to cut a long story short, it seems there's a movie called > 'Daredevil' with one Jennifer Garner in it, who looks so remarkably like > Amarice it's uncanny. > Hmm, you'd never heard of "Daredevil"?? :) It was a pretty big movie here...and Jennifer Garner is most famous as the star of the hip spy action TV series "Alias", which will soon be starting its 3rd season (yay!)...Season 1 just came out on dvd last week...personally I don't see much of a resemblance to Amarice/Jennifer Sky. *shrug* > Oh, and she's holding sais! > Yeah, her character in "Daredevil," Electra (the warrior chick and love interest of Ben Affleck's title character) fights with sais. I have a magnet of a promo pic of her w/ the sais on my fridge. :) > (I wonder if all this has been discussed at length on the XWP lists and just > went straight over my head... ;) Well, I know the sais in Daredevil did get mentioned b4, as has Alias...Gina Torres guest-starred for a while on Alias in Season 1!! -Sarah, aka the abbagirl- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 08:38:26 -0500 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] "Charming" homage to Xena The Amazons and the Valkyries come from two separate cultures separated by what might as well be a million miles. The Valkyries resided in the hinterlands with the Vikings, and were said to swoop down from the heavens and gather up dead heroes after a battle and take them to Valhalla where they would be recognized for their might and bravery. S. At 08:14 PM 9/7/2003 -0700, you wrote: >>Then in the season opener teaser they are advertised (and shown) as >>Amazons with the ep entitled "Valkyrie Vixens"...... mmmmm...is one of >>the writers an ex-Xena story teller??? > >I know! Are they Valkryries or Amazons? Two COMPLETELY different sets of >women warriors. >Actually, anyone notice how everyone dresses Amazons like Xena now? >AND, in the second episode of the fourth season, Charmed featured the >Furies. And the three ladies dressed EXACTLY like they did on Xena, and >no, that ain't their mythical look. >BATTLE ON XENA! > >Xena Torres: Warrior Writer ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:40:36 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Lucy's next show Hey! Look what I just read over at Sharon's fan page! Lucy is joing the cast of the WB network show Tarzan which airs Sunday nights at 9/8c premiering Oct 5. She will play Kathleen Clayton the witty, sardonic and beautiful newspaper publisher who is Tarzan's aunt. "Lucy has a tremendous sense of humor, warmth and grace," says The WB's Entertainment President Jordan Levin. "She has a fun, larger-than-life personality that will shape the character of Kathleen Clayton as she makes it her own and that is what attracted us to her for future development." Lawless, who starred in "Xena: Warrior Princess" from 1995 until 2001, is only signed as a regular for the show's first season. Her deal with The WB also includes an exclusive series development deal for the 2004-2005 season. "Tarzan" reunites Lawless with executive producer Laura Ziskin, who performed the same duties on "Spider-Man," which featured a small cameo by Lucy as a punk rocker. Captured by his billionaire uncle, Richard Clayton (Mitch Pileggi, The X-Files), the CEO of powerful Greystoke Industries, Tarzan is returned, against his will, to his family's home in New York City. Within the Clayton family, Tarzan's return has unleashed rivalries that have festered for decades. His uncle Richard is bitterly estranged from his younger sister Kathleen. While Richard believes that his desire to rehabilitate Tarzan and make him a real member of society is in Tarzan's own best interest, Kathleen believes that what Tarzan really needs is their help and support as he finds his own way in this strange new world. Now that their nephew has returned from the dead as Tarzan, Richard and Kathleen have squared off in a new battle. While they are both driven by love - for Tarzan and for the family - they also know that whoever controls Tarzan, controls Greystoke Industries as well. Tarzan is from executive producers Laura Ziskin (Spider-Man, Pretty Woman), David Gerber (The Lost Battalion), P.K. Simonds (Party of Five, Beauty and The Beast) and co-executive producer Eric Kripke (Battle of the Sexes) and is produced by Laura Ziskin Productions and The Gerber Company for Warner Bros. Television Production Inc. ______________________________________ Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy--we get to see Lucy again in a weekly series! Oh no, oh no, oh no, it's genre stuff! Of course, Lucy transformed T&A action adventure shows--and I can't imagine she'd take a crap role in a crap show (not for a whole season anyway.) Mitch Peleggi--kewl--he's good! And YES--it starts next month! I was just thinking recently that one of the jobs that have disappeared from my life with the ending of Xena was the heart-stopping excitement over just when the new season would start in the fall. And now we got this to look forward to. Hot Damn! KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #266 **************************************