From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #263 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, September 6 2003 Volume 03 : Number 263 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:27:27 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging On Saturday 06 September 2003 10:41, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Two points - first, as I said above, I don't really think that trashing > Ming's castle was really conclusively going to put him out of business, > *unless* there was a powerful rival waiting for the chance to take over > (of which we saw no sign).>> > > I doubt Xena would've been unhappy if he'd been crushed under those > columns. If he'd been smart, he'd have play possum. As you know, it hurts > my brain to get into the stuff about whether Xena's blowing up his castl > was sufficient. The point is that apparently Xena thought it sufficient, or > she wouldn't have started to walk away once she realized he was still > alive. That's why I believe she had changed her mind having to kill him in > order to neutralize him. Agreed, at that point she was going to leave him to it, even after he dug himself out of the rubble. > << Second, if 'make him small' just meant 'bringing him down', I still > think it > was misleading because the obvious interpretation of her words was that > she hadn't killed him. >> > > I agree that Xena either intended or allowed Gabrielle to interpret it as > she wanted. As I said, it also suggested that Gabs hadn't been such an > idiot for trying to stop Xena from killing, as Xena had been content to > stop at humiliating him and showing his powerlessness in the face of a > single tied down, beat up, "weak" woman. Xena's statement served a number > of purposes but was as true as it was misleading. Hmmm. I can't agree about Gabs' judgement. She knew nothing of the background or the circumstances, she simply did not know enough to make any sort of judgement about whether Xena should kill Ming. And therefore she couldn't judge whether it would be good or bad for Xena's soul. But even if I conceded that point (which I don't :), there still remains the unwisdom of her method - in telling Ming and thereby ensuring Xena's death. What's the point of saving Xena's soul (against her wishes) if all you're doing is ensuring she dies promptly with her soul intact? ;) > << Obviously in this instance I don't fully agree with Xena's > judgement - she may have been right, but IMO there's a significant chance > she might have been wrong. >> > > I think that's another intriguing aspect. We don't know. Xena tried to > honor Gabrielle's way, but perhaps, as you suggest, that wouldn't have been > enough. His conversations with Gabs certainly didn't suggest that he could > easily be swayed from his arrogance and power. Perhaps even Lao Ma knew > this -- matricide being a pretty good indicator of his true moral fiber. > Even Xena was stunned by that. It's as if part of her outrage was because > he was forcing her to do what she'd thought she'd manage to avoid. Yes, I agree there. A sort of 'don't make me kill you'. > I've always felt he had a death wish. He felt Xena "made" him, had allowed > her to destroy him politically, so seemed to provoke her into "unmaking" > him physically. That's another reason I think Xena had succeeded without > killing him -- his own otherwise senseless suicidal response. As I said > above, he could've pretended to be dead, yet he told Xena exactly what > would send her over the edge and "finish" the job. Well, I think his response just showed that he had enough arrogance that *nothing* would get through. I really don't think he had a death-wish. I think his ego was so huge that he just had to regain his own sense of importance by defying Xena. I think that blinded him to the danger. It can easily happen. > > Yes, I think that too. He was, despite everything, still Lao Ma's son. > Xena wasn't usually surprised by depravity, but I don't think she was > prepared for what he had done. Hmmm, which leads to another reason for her > outrage at influencing his develoopment into the monster that killed the > woman who'd "saved" Xena in so many ways. No way she could've let him > live after that. > > << Incidentally, mention of 'assassin' reminds me that Xena was quite > prepared > to kill Ming in cold blood at the end of Part One. >> > > And? I think that was clear in her discussions with Gabs, which is why > Gabs saw this mission as more like "murder." Oh yes. It just means (as we noted) that Xena had changed her mind at the point where Ming crawled out of a pile of rubble. > > << Yes, it just doesn't seem quite like Xena to pretend that way. >> > > Agreed. I couldn't remember her appearing so "soul weary" since SOP. I > see this as a pivotal ep in setting us up for the relationship becoming > unglued. Neither of them was being very forthcoming at this point, but > simply putting band-aids on some pretty traumatic experiences -- "going > through the motions" in order to preserve their friendship. I found it > very "realistic" in terms of what happens between people who love and > respect each other, but don't always have the energy for intense sensitive > chats about deep differences. Yes, OK. > On the surface, they're hugging and supporting each other as usual, each > aware of a big crack that the other doesn't know about. They're not > deceiving each other for negative reasons, but in order to preserve what > they have. But we, the viewer, know about the cracks, which is why I got > such a chill up my spine when I saw them walking off at the end of Debt in > a loving way that normally made me smile. > > -- Ife Well, yes, I agree, that was a great big landmine nicely buried and waiting to be trod on. What exactly were the cracks, btw? In Gabs' case, Hope, I presume? (We didn't know about Ares at that stage, though Gabs did). In Xena's case, obviously, Ming. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:41:39 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Friday 05 September 2003 23:32, cr wrote: (snip of most of it) > Oh yes, I totally agree. I think maybe at that stage TPTB were thinking > "now how can we make her *really, really* bad?" ;) > > I'd say they succeeded quite well. In fact Sin Trade revealed a heap of > new and interesting stuff - introduced the Northern Amazons, the fact that > Xena was a shaman (that was unexpected!!), that Xena was both the nemesis > of the Northern Amazons (and remember, up until now, we'd never seen Xena > have any seriously hostile dealings with Amazons**), and their salvation. > And it showed just how bad Xena could be 'just for the heck of it'. > Oops! I was going to add: ** I know about Xena fighting Melosa in H&H, and Velasca in The Quest. But the first of those was, in effect, Xena following Amazon custom (and with Ephiny's assistance IIRC). She wasn't attacking the Amazons and it was all resolved within the ep. Similarly with Velasca in Quest and ANE - Xena and Ephiny were allies. Even in Bitter Suite, where Xena did a certain amount of damage, it wasn't occasioned by any hostility to the Amazons as such, it was Gabrielle that Xena was after. One presumes, next time Xena and Ephiny met (assuming such happened off-camera some time), that any differences arising from that event were settled amicably. Certainly in Endgame the surviving Amazons didn't show any substantial distrust of Xena. So Xena making war on an Amazon tribe in Sin Trade was something completely unexpected, at least for me. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:39:47 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Friday 05 September 2003 20:28, KTL wrote: > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 8/31/2003 1:33:56 AM Central Daylight Time, > > > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > On Sunday 31 August 2003 07:10, KTL wrote: > > > >And even though Xena gets impatient at the end and opens the wheel > > > > herself to save the town, she still praises Gabrielle for her > > > > acrobatic troop emulation. Thus letting us know she's content with > > > > her student's test results. > > > > > > Besides, TPTB wanted to re-do the ladder fight in 'Callisto'. > > Ohh, good catch. Yeah, season six was all about homages and remakes of > prior eps. Unfortunately most of the remakes sucked. FIN is one of the > few that even came close to the main original ep, The Debt. Well, we know from the 'clips' episodes, they loved that ladder fight. I agree, the remakes (or were they wrap-ups?) mostly fell short of the originals. > > > None of > > > those ladder stunts ever worked for me. I keep fretting about centres > > > of gravity and suchlike. :( > > Engineers. *sigh* (No wonder they never get dates...) Hey! I get *plenty* of dates! Some of them even with... girls! (snip) > Having said that, let me now pass on MY gripe. I hate it that Gabrielle > has become a warrior. I think this is one of the greatest disappointments > in the whole series. Gabrielle stood for the negotiators and the > peace-makers, for the people who think talking things out works. (Though > this only works if some of the society are willing to be warriors, willing > to die to preserve the society. In other words, "Speak softly but carry a > big stick.") I agree from the opposite side. I don't regard Gabs as a warrior, never will. She never looked like she had the killer instinct. Xena did. > And I don't buy the Gabrielle is a different type of warrior. That she'll > talk first. We've seen her leap immediately into lots of fights. (Of > course, we've seen many people mop up the floor with her, so I guess you > could say she's different from Xena that way...) Ah, KT, being subversive again ;) > I honestly believe that Gabrielle became a warrior only because Lucy > Lawless got pregnant. I further muse that Amarice was supposed to be the > warrior in the group during Lucy's pregnancy. That that's why they > introduced that character. And then Cleopatra 2525 came along and Jennifer > Sky was sent off to be her. Just a thought... > > KT Works for me :) Actually, that thought occured to me about half-way through my first viewing of Endgame. As soon as it became apparent that Amarice was likely to be tagging along. Certainly Gab's sudden warrior ability in Chakram was a surprise to everybody. (I don't count the Gabspaz because that was an atypical moment. Gabs could easily - and more convincingly - have reverted to her pacifist side after that episode.) Whether TPTB knew, by Chakram, that Jennifer Sky was signed up for C2525, I don't know. My guess is they probably did, since Gabs' sudden fighting ability does seem rather - well, sudden. Why would they write it like that unless they needed to? Given more time, they could have laid a better foundation for Gabs' transformation (if it was ever needed) while Amarice did the warrior stuff. I assume that RT's idea was to have Gabs ultimately take over from Xena, but at that stage (start of S5) there was a long way to go and plenty of time for that to develop. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:41:39 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Friday 05 September 2003 23:32, cr wrote: (snip of most of it) > Oh yes, I totally agree. I think maybe at that stage TPTB were thinking > "now how can we make her *really, really* bad?" ;) > > I'd say they succeeded quite well. In fact Sin Trade revealed a heap of > new and interesting stuff - introduced the Northern Amazons, the fact that > Xena was a shaman (that was unexpected!!), that Xena was both the nemesis > of the Northern Amazons (and remember, up until now, we'd never seen Xena > have any seriously hostile dealings with Amazons**), and their salvation. > And it showed just how bad Xena could be 'just for the heck of it'. > Oops! I was going to add: ** I know about Xena fighting Melosa in H&H, and Velasca in The Quest. But the first of those was, in effect, Xena following Amazon custom (and with Ephiny's assistance IIRC). She wasn't attacking the Amazons and it was all resolved within the ep. Similarly with Velasca in Quest and ANE - Xena and Ephiny were allies. Even in Bitter Suite, where Xena did a certain amount of damage, it wasn't occasioned by any hostility to the Amazons as such, it was Gabrielle that Xena was after. One presumes, next time Xena and Ephiny met (assuming such happened off-camera some time), that any differences arising from that event were settled amicably. Certainly in Endgame the surviving Amazons didn't show any substantial distrust of Xena. So Xena making war on an Amazon tribe in Sin Trade was something completely unexpected, at least for me. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:27:27 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging On Saturday 06 September 2003 10:41, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Two points - first, as I said above, I don't really think that trashing > Ming's castle was really conclusively going to put him out of business, > *unless* there was a powerful rival waiting for the chance to take over > (of which we saw no sign).>> > > I doubt Xena would've been unhappy if he'd been crushed under those > columns. If he'd been smart, he'd have play possum. As you know, it hurts > my brain to get into the stuff about whether Xena's blowing up his castl > was sufficient. The point is that apparently Xena thought it sufficient, or > she wouldn't have started to walk away once she realized he was still > alive. That's why I believe she had changed her mind having to kill him in > order to neutralize him. Agreed, at that point she was going to leave him to it, even after he dug himself out of the rubble. > << Second, if 'make him small' just meant 'bringing him down', I still > think it > was misleading because the obvious interpretation of her words was that > she hadn't killed him. >> > > I agree that Xena either intended or allowed Gabrielle to interpret it as > she wanted. As I said, it also suggested that Gabs hadn't been such an > idiot for trying to stop Xena from killing, as Xena had been content to > stop at humiliating him and showing his powerlessness in the face of a > single tied down, beat up, "weak" woman. Xena's statement served a number > of purposes but was as true as it was misleading. Hmmm. I can't agree about Gabs' judgement. She knew nothing of the background or the circumstances, she simply did not know enough to make any sort of judgement about whether Xena should kill Ming. And therefore she couldn't judge whether it would be good or bad for Xena's soul. But even if I conceded that point (which I don't :), there still remains the unwisdom of her method - in telling Ming and thereby ensuring Xena's death. What's the point of saving Xena's soul (against her wishes) if all you're doing is ensuring she dies promptly with her soul intact? ;) > << Obviously in this instance I don't fully agree with Xena's > judgement - she may have been right, but IMO there's a significant chance > she might have been wrong. >> > > I think that's another intriguing aspect. We don't know. Xena tried to > honor Gabrielle's way, but perhaps, as you suggest, that wouldn't have been > enough. His conversations with Gabs certainly didn't suggest that he could > easily be swayed from his arrogance and power. Perhaps even Lao Ma knew > this -- matricide being a pretty good indicator of his true moral fiber. > Even Xena was stunned by that. It's as if part of her outrage was because > he was forcing her to do what she'd thought she'd manage to avoid. Yes, I agree there. A sort of 'don't make me kill you'. > I've always felt he had a death wish. He felt Xena "made" him, had allowed > her to destroy him politically, so seemed to provoke her into "unmaking" > him physically. That's another reason I think Xena had succeeded without > killing him -- his own otherwise senseless suicidal response. As I said > above, he could've pretended to be dead, yet he told Xena exactly what > would send her over the edge and "finish" the job. Well, I think his response just showed that he had enough arrogance that *nothing* would get through. I really don't think he had a death-wish. I think his ego was so huge that he just had to regain his own sense of importance by defying Xena. I think that blinded him to the danger. It can easily happen. > > Yes, I think that too. He was, despite everything, still Lao Ma's son. > Xena wasn't usually surprised by depravity, but I don't think she was > prepared for what he had done. Hmmm, which leads to another reason for her > outrage at influencing his develoopment into the monster that killed the > woman who'd "saved" Xena in so many ways. No way she could've let him > live after that. > > << Incidentally, mention of 'assassin' reminds me that Xena was quite > prepared > to kill Ming in cold blood at the end of Part One. >> > > And? I think that was clear in her discussions with Gabs, which is why > Gabs saw this mission as more like "murder." Oh yes. It just means (as we noted) that Xena had changed her mind at the point where Ming crawled out of a pile of rubble. > > << Yes, it just doesn't seem quite like Xena to pretend that way. >> > > Agreed. I couldn't remember her appearing so "soul weary" since SOP. I > see this as a pivotal ep in setting us up for the relationship becoming > unglued. Neither of them was being very forthcoming at this point, but > simply putting band-aids on some pretty traumatic experiences -- "going > through the motions" in order to preserve their friendship. I found it > very "realistic" in terms of what happens between people who love and > respect each other, but don't always have the energy for intense sensitive > chats about deep differences. Yes, OK. > On the surface, they're hugging and supporting each other as usual, each > aware of a big crack that the other doesn't know about. They're not > deceiving each other for negative reasons, but in order to preserve what > they have. But we, the viewer, know about the cracks, which is why I got > such a chill up my spine when I saw them walking off at the end of Debt in > a loving way that normally made me smile. > > -- Ife Well, yes, I agree, that was a great big landmine nicely buried and waiting to be trod on. What exactly were the cracks, btw? In Gabs' case, Hope, I presume? (We didn't know about Ares at that stage, though Gabs did). In Xena's case, obviously, Ming. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 15:31:02 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #261 On Saturday 06 September 2003 11:55, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > Ife wrote: > > (snip) > > I was surprised that Xena went through the charade of propping his body > > up just to fool Gabs. I stil prefer the paralyzed scenario, but I agree > > now that > > Xena probably intended for Gabs to interpret the "didn't have to murder" > > line as she did. > > I have always found the last scene from The Debt confusing but I have > always interpreted not so much as Xena deceiving Gabrielle but as Xena not > realizing what she had done. I think when Xena kills Ming she does so out > of sheer disgust. There is no crime worse for Xena than the killing of > family and to see Ming gloat about killing not only his mother but also a > great woman was just to much for Xena. I think she just simply snapped. > There is no other explanation for her talking to the dead Ming as if he > were alive when Gabrielle comes back for her. Xena is nearly in a state of > shock when Gabrielle leads her away. I can't see that *at all*. I think she just changed her mind about not killing him. For me to kill him, or Gabby, say, we would probably have 'snapped', but Xena is used to killing people, she's rather good at it. So I really can't see that killing MIng (which is what she intended in the first place) would put her under great mental stress. And I don't think she was in a state of shock, either. Maybe in a state of mild euphoria at having escaped from a death sentence. And certainly in a sentimental mood at having returned to her Lao Ma's book of wisdom. > I think it was a shock that La Mao returned the broach to Xena and the > implication that came with it - that Xena had permission to kill Ming. La > Mao was never a pacifist remember that she wanted Xena as a her Warrior > Princess - to do her fighting for her. Xena now has conflicting emotions - > she was on the path of murder then she turns from that and does what she > believes La Mao wanted her to do make Ming small without murder and then > suddenly everything turns again. But that was always implicit in Lao Ma's summons to Xena. Xena assumed from the moment she got the message that Lao Ma wanted her to kill Ming. "Who was the Green Dragon?" "The man I'm going to kill." There was certainly nothing she discovered after that moment to make her change her mind about that. Xena had no problem with the idea of killing Ming at all. Never did. She decided on the spur of the moment I think, that since he'd survived the wreckage of his throne room, she'd leave it at that. Ming got lucky, if only he'd been smart enough to realise it. > La Mao wants Xena to kill Ming; she has > become La Mao's weapon and like that broach she obeys Mao's will and does > her bidding. By episodes end Xena is terribly confused - has she betrayed > La Mao by killing or has she submitted to La Mao's will and killed for her. > I don't even if Xena understands her motivations for killing Ming. Was it > revenge, loathing, or simply obedience to La Mao? Xena at the moment > Gabrielle returns I believe is she just very unsure of what has actually > happened. > > CherylA I saw no confusion at all. A degree of surprise at Ming's revelation about his murder of Lao Ma, yes. (Remember, up until then, I don't think Xena was aware that Ming had executed Lao Ma, though she may have had her suspicions). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 15:37:28 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Saturday 06 September 2003 04:23, KTL wrote: > > No, you two, I haven't seen a l-o-t of Herc eps, but enough to have > > observed that \his/ repetitive opponents weren't so much "warlord of the > > week's", but rather gorgeous, often (?) supernatural female opponents, > > generally sicced on him by Hera. And they would end up reformed and in > > love (and usually in the sack) with Herc, from whom they would > > reluctantly and sadly part, some also to be heroic. > > Ah, calssic cowboy text. Was it? All the cowboy westerns I saw as a kid were notable for the complete absence of sex and the near-total absence of females. Quite regardless of what the Wild West *may* have been like, most of these Westerns were made in the 60's and 70's IIRC (when TV cowboy Westerns were in vogue). I doubt whether the Lone Ranger ever exchanged more than a 'Good Morning, Ma'am' to a woman on screen, certainly didn't get hot 'n' heavy with the supporting cast. And I don't think we ever saw, in the Westerns, any female villains whatsoever. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #263 **************************************