From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #262 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, September 5 2003 Volume 03 : Number 262 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #261 ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:28:04 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/31/2003 1:33:56 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > On Sunday 31 August 2003 07:10, KTL wrote: > > > > > >And even though Xena gets impatient at the end and opens the wheel herself > > >to save the town, she still praises Gabrielle for her acrobatic troop > > >emulation. Thus letting us know she's content with her student's test > > >results. > > > > Besides, TPTB wanted to re-do the ladder fight in 'Callisto'. Ohh, good catch. Yeah, season six was all about homages and remakes of prior eps. Unfortunately most of the remakes sucked. FIN is one of the few that even came close to the main original ep, The Debt. None of > > those ladder stunts ever worked for me. I keep fretting about centres of > > gravity and suchlike. :( Engineers. *sigh* (No wonder they never get dates...) > > > > Anyway, that sequence was the one they chose to distribute as a 'teaser' for > > > > the pre-finale publicity (it's in all the interviews LL did about that > > time). > > Personally, I think it's the weakest part of the whole ep - lots of action, > > but little suspense or drama. > > > Funny, but I just watched a pre-AFIN interview Lucy did with Oxygen, > courtesy of a TBV tape I just got. Lucy says that Xena never asked > anybody for advice, that this was part of showing the passing of the > torch to Gabrielle. It's clear that Lucy gave that aspect more > significance than may have come across in that scene or even later > scenes. I think many if not most people saw it as "Gabrielle's test". Because exactly as Lucy says, Xena doesn't ask for ideas from others. She's just not a committee type of gal--just doesn't play well with others. (Hey--gods I can hardly believe this myself, but I just thought of a new Gabrielle T-Shirt--a picture of Gabrielle racing into battle with her sais and the caption of course is, "Runs with Sais") She seems very pleased that it was more > "Gabrielle's story," when in fact many of us still focused on it as the > conclusion of Xena's story, It was the passing on of the torch certainly. But it didn't become Gabrielle's story until Xena "stayed dead". In the commentary Rob talks about not being able to spend enough time on showing Gabrielle learning some fight moves from Kenji on the boat. He says he didn't take that time because it was still Xena's story at this point. I don't think it could be more clear that having tested Gabrielle and feeling she passed,the test with, one could say, "flying" colors, Xena has decided that whatever happens, she will be free to fix things. No matter what it takes. We get a taste of this in the beginning dialogue. When Xena is so restless and questioning the path she's been on for the last (conscious) six years. (Damn, I'd like a show on where she was and what she did during the lost year in the Valkyrie arc.) What she's been doing is no longer so compelling or fulfilling. She is ready to move on. And boy, does she. while others didn't see it as the story they wanted to see > about either Gabrielle or the relationship. > > -- Ife But it was the story Rob wanted to tell. Rob's used to horrifying fans-- hell, some folks haven't seen the story they wanted to see about Gabrielle or the relationship since season two. Actually, most fandoms, if a show runs long enough, have factions that spit upon the creators for where they take the show. Just part of making a cult product... Having said that, let me now pass on MY gripe. I hate it that Gabrielle has become a warrior. I think this is one of the greatest disappointments in the whole series. Gabrielle stood for the negotiators and the peace-makers, for the people who think talking things out works. (Though this only works if some of the society are willing to be warriors, willing to die to preserve the society. In other words, "Speak softly but carry a big stick.") I always think of Xena's last words in the Price, about the people who will ultimately stop the Horde. "It won't be warriors. It'll be someone like you. I just hope that wherever the Horde is from, they have a Gabrielle." Well the Horde may have one, but Xena's side doesn't anymore. And I don't buy the Gabrielle is a different type of warrior. That she'll talk first. We've seen her leap immediately into lots of fights. (Of course, we've seen many people mop up the floor with her, so I guess you could say she's different from Xena that way...) I just wish more respect had been shown for people who choose not to use force as their first response. Xena's enormous respect for Gabrielle drew from that aspect of her character. And now it's tossed aside in favor of her now solving problems through violence and killing. And I just hate that. I honestly believe that Gabrielle became a warrior only because Lucy Lawless got pregnant. I further muse that Amarice was supposed to be the warrior in the group during Lucy's pregnancy. That that's why they introduced that character. And then Cleopatra 2525 came along and Jennifer Sky was sent off to be her. Just a thought... KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:12:31 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/2/03 4:18:34 AM Central Daylight Time, > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > <<(I LOVE how when Xena > goes off to fight, he trundles off after her bringing her her chakram. I > could just envision that if they had gotten together, there'd be Xena off > defending their town and children while Darius comes out and brings her > her lunch every day. And probably sings at night, "Stand by your > warrior...")>> > > LOL! You know,I hadn't focused before how that ep stood traditional images > on their heads, while at the same time exploring them. First, Xena comes to > the rescue, after Daddy Darius gets knocked out. Next we see him tenderly > caring for her, saying, "not in my house" when she wants to keep her weapons on, > giving her a look when she's telling the kids about her fight with the Titans, > and trying to persuade her not to fight the warlords. Darius probably would've > wanted her to give up her warrior ways, but, as you suggest, I bet he'd have > resigned himself to it and been content to support "mommy" as she went off to > fight. He's playing the Grace Kelly part from High Noon. Lucy had the Gary Cooper part. And yeah, I loved it too. What I liked again, was showing someone who was a conscientious objector and showing that as a choice, not just a cowardly response. And I got a big tickle out of the switched gender roles. Just perfect for this show. > > I agree with comments I snipped, that Xena showed a range of emotions in > "Chariots." I especially liked how she got the little girl to finally talk again. > Children's reactions are usually a good barometer for what lies beneath the > surface in characters. Xena passed with flying colors. > Kids always love Xena. Gabreille they shoot arrows at. snip snip > > << I think that the minute she saw Gabrielle standing up to Draco's army, she > was brought back to her own history, to what it cost her when she stood up > to Cortez. And where it led her. >> > > And at the same time, I think it reminded her of the good reasons (internal > and external) she started on that path, even if she didn't want Gabs following > in her footsteps. Ummmmm. mmmmmmm. I'm not so sure about that. I don't see early Xena as having a lot of positive feelings about her bad side. You probably do. Since I don't....grin Tapert talks about Xena's seeing her lost innocence in some > of the younger folks she was attracted to. Yeah, I saw that all the time. I've seen some folks post that Xena was trying to make Gabrielle into a copy of herself. To me, nothing could be further from the truth. Xena NEVER wanted anyone to be like her. I do believe she saw herself in > Gabrielle -- before it became corrupted. > Yes, absolutely. I think it's part of what galvanizes Xena into action. She realizes that if she takes out the bad guys, Gabrielle and her village will all be safe and nobody will have to pay any consequences for having defended themselves and their fellow villages. So she unburies her weapons and reassumes the mantle of the warrior. To protect the innocent, to fight for good. I've always felt that in many of her interactions with young people, Xena steps in especially to save them from a life like hers. We see this very explicity in the episodes with Tara. I'm sure Xena wishes at times that somebody had been there to do this for her when Cortez attacked her town. But then imagine what a boring series this would have been if Xena had never started down that bad grrl path. KT > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:19:58 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Mark B. wrote: > cr wrote: > > > > > > You know, Darius seemed like a really genuinely nice guy. And (IIRC, my > > memories of this ep are a little hazy) Xena seemed to be very tempted to > > settle down with him. But of course, that was impossible for Xena, for all > > sorts of reasons. (Not least because she had a series to make ;) > > > > > It kinda made me wonder about that. Could it be that she was unsure of > her course in life now. She had decided to give up the warlord thing. > Perhaps rescuing G and village was impromptu. After all, she did tell > Draco in that ep that she was wanting to go home. After being booted > out from Amphipolis [with help from G], this was really her first 'help > the villagers for no good reason other than it feels right'. Very good point. It just struck me this instant that Darius' kids are really important in this ep. Xena bonds with them and so has a big reason to try to save the village. Perhaps it was believed that Xena fighting for the safety of the children was more palatable than her fighting to save a guy who wouldn't fight for himself? Mayyyyyybe. I agree > that she did seem to be more than merely polite with Darius when she > declined his offer. After all, in Amphipolis she was not fighting Draco > to protect the village, he was looking for her! > > > Mark Again, true. She was forced into that fight. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:10:41 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging On Friday 05 September 2003 10:54, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > He set himself up in every possible way. I do like irony and that whole > scene was just perfect. >> > > Absolutely. At the time, I remember fans who thought Xena betrayed Lao > Ma's teachings by using the pin so lethally. I vehemently disagreed, as > Lao Ma said she "preferred" eschewing viiolence, but was the main one to > point out to Xena that even the most beautiful objects could be used to > kill (like Xena herself). There's no doubt in my mind that she gave her > kid the pin precisely as a message of permission that she knew he'd give to > Xena as a taunt. So absolutely delicious, especially since he delivers it > as "proof" of his mother's weakness and stupidity. I can't see what other intentions Lao Ma would have had, in calling Xena in. She would have known that there was a 99% chance Ming would end up dead. (Last time she saw Xena, the WP was trying to kill Ming, too ;). What else did she think Xena was likely to do? What else *could* Xena have done to depose him? I don't think that line about people not following him any more was really very convincing. > > > Xena has just come through one of the most grueling, self-revealing > > tests of her life. It is as if she's talking to herself about > > something she learned, and which may be of some consolation to her > > guilt-ridden friend, when she says, "You're right, I didn't have to > > resolve this with murder." > > Now that line makes me slightly uneasy. Not because she misled Gabby > (I don't think Gabby really had a right to impose her morals on Xena at > that point, so wasn't entitled to anything more), but just because we don't > often see Xena tell a falsehood. What Gabby thought Xena meant was "I > didn't kill > him". Technically, splitting hairs like crazy, I suppose we could say > Xena > was not telling an untruth - there are two 'outs' - "I didn't *have* to > kill him" (but I did :) > or the other one, of course, is to claim it wasn't 'murder' but > justifiable > homicide, retribution, whatever. >> > > I don't think it was a lie. By "resolve this," I think she meant Lao Ma's > request to "make him small." I think she'd actually accomplished that > mission without murder, by bringing down his reign. As she said to his > body, his people wouldn't follow him anymore. This was in contrast to her > initial concept of her mission, which was to kill him, so Gabrielle was > right in that sense. Two points - first, as I said above, I don't really think that trashing Ming's castle was really conclusively going to put him out of business, *unless* there was a powerful rival waiting for the chance to take over (of which we saw no sign). Second, if 'make him small' just meant 'bringing him down', I still think it was misleading because the obvious interpretation of her words was that she hadn't killed him. > Xena was satisfied to walk away with dethroning him -- without *having* to > kill him for that reason. Agreed. Obviously in this instance I don't fully agree with Xena's judgement - she may have been right, but IMO there's a significant chance she might have been wrong. > His admission about killing Lao Ma is what got > him dead. I don't know whether Lao Ma figured it would take killing him, > even tho I believe she wanted Xena to do that if necessary. But I think > Xena murdered him out of her own outrage and need for vengeance (or > "justice"), not out of fear that he'd hurt his people anymore. That darkly > satisfied look on her face at the very end suggested to me that what she > did was personal -- paying a past debt -- not to resolve a current > political situation. Oh yes, I agree there entirely. I also think she may have reassessed her opinion of him - after all, when she dethroned him, she knew he was a ruthless ruler who needed to be ousted. (I don't know if she regarded his death sentence on her as a point against him - after all, would-be assassins could usually that). But when he started bragging about Lao Ma, quite aside from her personal feelings for Lao Ma, Ming was proving that he truly was psychotic and evil. Incidentally, mention of 'assassin' reminds me that Xena was quite prepared to kill Ming in cold blood at the end of Part One. > < tricked Ares out of his reward on a technicality in Amphipolis Under > Siege. > > Though, in Debt, it could have been avoided easily just by a re-phrasing, > which would not have been possible in AUS. On each occasion, I somehow > feel it isn't quite worthy of Xena. >> > > I agree that deceiving Gabs and Ares wasn't exactly "above board" in terms > of Xena's usual "here's the deal, take it or leave it" approach. In the > first case, it made Gabs' feel better. In the second, it saved her kid and > her independence from Ares. I didn't feel any queasier about that, than > her switching Vircinix with Whosits in "When in Rome." Xena did > a lot of things that weren't "nice." Hmmm. I feel different. Probably because, Crassus was an enemy who Xena had no special obligation towards. Whereas Ares (in AUS) was an ally, and Gabs was a friend (even if she was the walking embodiment of 'with friends like this, who needs enemies'?) > > I don't think she intends at all to deceive Gabby. > > But, what other interpretation of her words is there? I'd like to find > one. > I don't mind her fooling Gabby at all, but I would have preferred it had > she done so more subtly. Does that seem odd? >> > > When I first saw Debt, I thought maybe Xena had put him in a kind of a > paralyzed state, suggested a little by the actor's slight eye movement > (which I found out later was not intended). I loved the delicious irony of > his being like Lao Ma's husband -- conscious of what was happening, but > unable to do anything about it. I didn't see any reason for Xena to know > Gabs would come back, so I thought Xena was just rubbing it in to him about > how Lao Ma had won after all. Even after I accepted that he was (as one > person wrote) "dead dead dead," I was surprised that Xena went through the > charade of propping his body up just to fool Gabs. I stil prefer the > paralyzed scenario, but I agree now that Xena probably intended for Gabs to > interpret the "didn't have to murder" line as she did. > > -- Ife Yes, it just doesn't seem quite like Xena to pretend that way. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:32:10 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Wednesday 03 September 2003 23:28, KTL wrote: > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, cr wrote: > > On Sunday 31 August 2003 07:10, KTL wrote: > > > I have been SOOOOOO busy in work. (Most recently escorting my senior > > > tourists around the town of Moose Pass, Alaska). > > > > Moose Pass? I bet they renamed it for the tourists. I bet it started > > out in life as Higgins Swamp or somesuch. ;) > > Did not! It has a long and interes... well, it has a long history (for > Alaska.) Here's just one of numerous (well, there's at least two) websites > devoted to the town. > > http://www.moosepassalaska.com/ It's worth looking at just for the > graphic at the bottom of the page. It's got a *train*. You didn't tell me it had a train! Cool! > > > It was only with the introduction of Evil Xena in the Debt that XWP was > > > transformed from being a cheesy parody of myths into being a true myth > > > all of its own, featuring a hero who was extraordinarily original and > > > compelling. > > snip snip > > > Very acutely observed. Actually, RT started to do that in Destiny, when > > Xena 's backstory suddenly started getting interesting. And Xena was > > 'bad' in that episode, she was a pirate, and pirates are known to be bad > > (though also rather dashing and romantic - in fiction, I hasten to add). > > And she did open by burning the town of - ummm - (damn! where's that > > map? never mind- ) - Stagyra, IIRC. But she wasn't real evil > > in-yer-face bad in that episode. (And I don't count the scene in the > > hut, she had provocation ;) > > Exactly. She was just "warlord of the week" bad then. She was still the > person who "didn't kill women and children", who saved the life of a baby > despite it costing her her command and who grieved over what her army did > in Cirra. (Though we had already seen her crouch in the sand and coldly > watch Callisto die by then. I think that scene and much of the Price was > excellent foreshadowing for just how inhuman Xena could be when pushed. > Even our good reforming Xena.) > > But truly evil Xena, a person who would kidnap a child and brick him up to > die if his dad doesn't deal for him, doesn't appear until the Debt. > > snip snip > > > Actually, he got us to fall in love with a couple of other true villains, > > too - Ares and Callisto. Maybe if the villain in American Gothic had > > been as fascinating as either of them, the show might have taken off. > > Wellllll, I loved Callisto but I never considered her a hero. She was the > villain! Well of course! I never said otherwise. > Actually she was an incredible creation of Stewart's--the > "shadow Xena" who stirred up such feelings of guilt in Xena and who raised > very interesting questions on WHY Xena got to get away with what she'd > done in the past, when Callisto suffered every day for it. Way kewl > character AND plot device to examine the hero all rolled into one. Oh yes, and in many ways Xena's parallel and mirror image. (That sounds like an oxymoron. Not really - some aspects of Callisto's history and character closely resembled Xena's, some were the direct opposite.) > As for Ares, I never loved him until he loved Xena. He was SLIMY! Ugh. > And then he went and fell helplessly in love. And was transformed by > his love for another. This is a constant theme of XWP--transformation of > characters through love. NOBODY comes out the same at the end of the > series. Which is damn fine storytelling. Oh, absolutely agreed. > Yes this is exactly my point. That we didn't get the truly horrific > details (like the destruction of the Northern Amazons just to get their > blood to enhance the power of her buddy Alti) until after season three. > > The appearance of Evil Xena totally revamped the whole story because it > revealed further specific details about the character of the hero. (Made > it a much better story, in my mind.) Oh yes, I totally agree. I think maybe at that stage TPTB were thinking "now how can we make her *really, really* bad?" ;) I'd say they succeeded quite well. In fact Sin Trade revealed a heap of new and interesting stuff - introduced the Northern Amazons, the fact that Xena was a shaman (that was unexpected!!), that Xena was both the nemesis of the Northern Amazons (and remember, up until now, we'd never seen Xena have any seriously hostile dealings with Amazons**), and their salvation. And it showed just how bad Xena could be 'just for the heck of it'. Actually, mention of Xena's spiritual / supernatural powers reminds me that I've always found them more intriguing than her physical abilities. She picked up quite a number of them - the ability to zap Ming with energy bolts in The Debt (though that disappeared again), she knew *all* the shaman stuff (in Sin Trade and Them Bones), she knew back ways into Tartarus, she messed with the affairs of the Greek gods *and* the Norse ones - all these things seem to indicate that her mental powers must have been remarkable too. I'm not sure how many normal humans would have been able to control all that stuff. (snip) > > Akemi was not afraid of Xena, and that increased > > Xena's respect for Akemi. In fact, Akemi treated Xena as an equal, > > which subtly encouraged Xena to treat Akemi the same way. > > Very good points. Though standing up to Xena CAN be dangerous. "I wuud > hahf takeen de gohld." Yeah, I loved that line from Borias. Borias was a cool character too. > snip, snip > > > > > Well that's it for now. I'll let you digest this much for now. I > > > > now can go watch FIN again - just call me obsessed. > > > > > > I travel with my FIN dvd all the time-but I gotta admit, as soon as the > > > Debt comes out on dvd, that one will also be hitting the road with me, > > > with or without FIN. > > > > > > KT > > > > And Sin Trade, I hope? ;) > > > > cr > > Only the Debt is mandatory. But Sin Trace is certainly a strong contender > to become The Debt's traveling companion. > > KT I'm very pleased to hear that. 'sides, I'm sure Xena's 'roadkill chic' as someone put it, would fit right in in Moose Pass ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:23:35 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 > >She's scheming against two strong warriors. Plain old warlord of the week > >stuff. > > > > > >> Though > >> she did *look* gorgeous as always, and us guys will forgive any woman who > >> looks like that and achieves her evil plans by seducing us in the bath.... > >> hrrrrm... anyway, to get back to my point, she was bad but intriguing > >> when we first saw her. But by episode two (The Gauntlet) she'd started to > >> become heroic in some ways and by episode three (Unchained Heart) she was > >> firmly in the hero camp. > > No, you two, I haven't seen a l-o-t of Herc eps, but enough to have > observed that \his/ repetitive opponents weren't so much "warlord of the > week's", but rather gorgeous, often (?) supernatural female opponents, > generally sicced on him by Hera. And they would end up reformed and in > love (and usually in the sack) with Herc, from whom they would reluctantly > and sadly part, some also to be heroic. Ah, calssic cowboy text. Just like Xena! She was merely > one from an ongoing series of females so smitten. BUT \that/ particular > stock character as embodied by Lucy, and coming at just the right time for > a spin-off, somehow "took"... and the rest, as they say... is history! > Glorious history!!! Oh absolutely. And I believe to the bottom of my teensy weensy toes that if Lucy had not been tapped by Tapert (heh) to play Xena, (to quote Claire at the last con), "none of us would be here today". KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:41:33 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 In a message dated 9/5/03 4:13:14 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << > And at the same time, I think it reminded her of the good reasons (internal > and external) she started on that path, even if she didn't want Gabs following > in her footsteps. Ummmmm. mmmmmmm. I'm not so sure about that. I don't see early Xena as having a lot of positive feelings about her bad side. You probably do. Since I don't....grin >> LOL! No, I didn't mean positive feelings about her bad side. I meant for the Xena she was before she went bad. When she watched Gabs from the shrubs, I always pictured her having a quick flash of herself when she first stood up to Cortez -- sort of a reminder of what she'd thrown away, which I do believe she could see some value in. <> Agreed. In many ways, I think Gabs consciously tried to influence Xena, rather than the other way around. I do believe she saw herself in > Gabrielle -- before it became corrupted. > Yes, absolutely. I think it's part of what galvanizes Xena into action. >> Ah, that's what I meant above. << I've always felt that in many of her interactions with young people, Xena steps in especially to save them from a life like hers. We see this very explicity in the episodes with Tara. >> Agreed again. Now that you mention it, simply letting Gabs tag along was an act of faith in itself -- not so much in herself, as in not rubbing off too much on Gabs. I didn't see a whole lot of rationale for that faith in SOP, but they were in a hurry. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:41:31 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] DEBT 1&2: Water Soft & Raging In a message dated 9/5/03 6:35:50 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I don't think it was a lie. By "resolve this," I think she meant Lao Ma's > request to "make him small." I think she'd actually accomplished that > mission without murder, by bringing down his reign. As she said to his > body, his people wouldn't follow him anymore. This was in contrast to her > initial concept of her mission, which was to kill him, so Gabrielle was > right in that sense. Two points - first, as I said above, I don't really think that trashing Ming's castle was really conclusively going to put him out of business, *unless* there was a powerful rival waiting for the chance to take over (of which we saw no sign).>> I doubt Xena would've been unhappy if he'd been crushed under those columns. If he'd been smart, he'd have play possum. As you know, it hurts my brain to get into the stuff about whether Xena's blowing up his castl was sufficient. The point is that apparently Xena thought it sufficient, or she wouldn't have started to walk away once she realized he was still alive. That's why I believe she had changed her mind having to kill him in order to neutralize him. << Second, if 'make him small' just meant 'bringing him down', I still think it was misleading because the obvious interpretation of her words was that she hadn't killed him. >> I agree that Xena either intended or allowed Gabrielle to interpret it as she wanted. As I said, it also suggested that Gabs hadn't been such an idiot for trying to stop Xena from killing, as Xena had been content to stop at humiliating him and showing his powerlessness in the face of a single tied down, beat up, "weak" woman. Xena's statement served a number of purposes but was as true as it was misleading. << Obviously in this instance I don't fully agree with Xena's judgement - she may have been right, but IMO there's a significant chance she might have been wrong. >> I think that's another intriguing aspect. We don't know. Xena tried to honor Gabrielle's way, but perhaps, as you suggest, that wouldn't have been enough. His conversations with Gabs certainly didn't suggest that he could easily be swayed from his arrogance and power. Perhaps even Lao Ma knew this -- matricide being a pretty good indicator of his true moral fiber. Even Xena was stunned by that. It's as if part of her outrage was because he was forcing her to do what she'd thought she'd manage to avoid. I've always felt he had a death wish. He felt Xena "made" him, had allowed her to destroy him politically, so seemed to provoke her into "unmaking" him physically. That's another reason I think Xena had succeeded without killing him -- his own otherwise senseless suicidal response. As I said above, he could've pretended to be dead, yet he told Xena exactly what would send her over the edge and "finish" the job. <> Yes, I think that too. He was, despite everything, still Lao Ma's son. Xena wasn't usually surprised by depravity, but I don't think she was prepared for what he had done. Hmmm, which leads to another reason for her outrage at influencing his develoopment into the monster that killed the woman who'd "saved" Xena in so many ways. No way she could've let him live after that. << Incidentally, mention of 'assassin' reminds me that Xena was quite prepared to kill Ming in cold blood at the end of Part One. >> And? I think that was clear in her discussions with Gabs, which is why Gabs saw this mission as more like "murder." << Yes, it just doesn't seem quite like Xena to pretend that way. >> Agreed. I couldn't remember her appearing so "soul weary" since SOP. I see this as a pivotal ep in setting us up for the relationship becoming unglued. Neither of them was being very forthcoming at this point, but simply putting band-aids on some pretty traumatic experiences -- "going through the motions" in order to preserve their friendship. I found it very "realistic" in terms of what happens between people who love and respect each other, but don't always have the energy for intense sensitive chats about deep differences. On the surface, they're hugging and supporting each other as usual, each aware of a big crack that the other doesn't know about. They're not deceiving each other for negative reasons, but in order to preserve what they have. But we, the viewer, know about the cracks, which is why I got such a chill up my spine when I saw them walking off at the end of Debt in a loving way that normally made me smile. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:41:34 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 In a message dated 9/5/03 3:30:16 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << I just wish more respect had been shown for people who choose not to use force as their first response. Xena's enormous respect for Gabrielle drew from that aspect of her character. And now it's tossed aside in favor of her now solving problems through violence and killing. And I just hate that. >> I truly believe that's the "betrayal" a lot of Gabfans felt and that they'd be surprised to know how many Xena fans were disappointed too. I also thought her different perspective would be more of a counterpoint to Xena's even up to the end. The difference may be that some Xena fans remembered the many times when Gabs' way was integral to accomplishing missions effectively, whereas many Gabfans focused on all the times her way seemed ineffective. <> You may be right. Although Gabs tended to choose violence first when it involved someone close to her (e.g., Xena, Eve, Ephiny and the Amazons). - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:55:16 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #261 > Ife wrote: > When I first saw Debt, I thought maybe Xena had put him in a kind of a > paralyzed state, suggested a little by the actor's slight eye movement (which I > found out later was not intended). ... Even after I accepted that he was (as one person wrote) "dead dead dead," > I was surprised that Xena went through the charade of propping his body up > just to fool Gabs. I stil prefer the paralyzed scenario, but I agree now that > Xena probably intended for Gabs to interpret the "didn't have to murder" line as > she did. > I have always found the last scene from The Debt confusing but I have always interpreted not so much as Xena deceiving Gabrielle but as Xena not realizing what she had done. I think when Xena kills Ming she does so out of sheer disgust. There is no crime worse for Xena than the killing of family and to see Ming gloat about killing not only his mother but also a great woman was just to much for Xena. I think she just simply snapped. There is no other explanation for her talking to the dead Ming as if he were alive when Gabrielle comes back for her. Xena is nearly in a state of shock when Gabrielle leads her away. I think it was a shock that La Mao returned the broach to Xena and the implication that came with it - that Xena had permission to kill Ming. La Mao was never a pacifist remember that she wanted Xena as a her Warrior Princess - to do her fighting for her. Xena now has conflicting emotions - she was on the path of murder then she turns from that and does what she believes La Mao wanted her to do make Ming small without murder and then suddenly everything turns again. La Mao wants Xena to kill Ming; she has become La Mao's weapon and like that broach she obeys Mao's will and does her bidding. By episodes end Xena is terribly confused - has she betrayed La Mao by killing or has she submitted to La Mao's will and killed for her. I don't even if Xena understands her motivations for killing Ming. Was it revenge, loathing, or simply obedience to La Mao? Xena at the moment Gabrielle returns I believe is she just very unsure of what has actually happened. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:39:47 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Friday 05 September 2003 20:28, KTL wrote: > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 8/31/2003 1:33:56 AM Central Daylight Time, > > > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > On Sunday 31 August 2003 07:10, KTL wrote: > > > >And even though Xena gets impatient at the end and opens the wheel > > > > herself to save the town, she still praises Gabrielle for her > > > > acrobatic troop emulation. Thus letting us know she's content with > > > > her student's test results. > > > > > > Besides, TPTB wanted to re-do the ladder fight in 'Callisto'. > > Ohh, good catch. Yeah, season six was all about homages and remakes of > prior eps. Unfortunately most of the remakes sucked. FIN is one of the > few that even came close to the main original ep, The Debt. Well, we know from the 'clips' episodes, they loved that ladder fight. I agree, the remakes (or were they wrap-ups?) mostly fell short of the originals. > > > None of > > > those ladder stunts ever worked for me. I keep fretting about centres > > > of gravity and suchlike. :( > > Engineers. *sigh* (No wonder they never get dates...) Hey! I get *plenty* of dates! Some of them even with... girls! (snip) > Having said that, let me now pass on MY gripe. I hate it that Gabrielle > has become a warrior. I think this is one of the greatest disappointments > in the whole series. Gabrielle stood for the negotiators and the > peace-makers, for the people who think talking things out works. (Though > this only works if some of the society are willing to be warriors, willing > to die to preserve the society. In other words, "Speak softly but carry a > big stick.") I agree from the opposite side. I don't regard Gabs as a warrior, never will. She never looked like she had the killer instinct. Xena did. > And I don't buy the Gabrielle is a different type of warrior. That she'll > talk first. We've seen her leap immediately into lots of fights. (Of > course, we've seen many people mop up the floor with her, so I guess you > could say she's different from Xena that way...) Ah, KT, being subversive again ;) > I honestly believe that Gabrielle became a warrior only because Lucy > Lawless got pregnant. I further muse that Amarice was supposed to be the > warrior in the group during Lucy's pregnancy. That that's why they > introduced that character. And then Cleopatra 2525 came along and Jennifer > Sky was sent off to be her. Just a thought... > > KT Works for me :) Actually, that thought occured to me about half-way through my first viewing of Endgame. As soon as it became apparent that Amarice was likely to be tagging along. Certainly Gab's sudden warrior ability in Chakram was a surprise to everybody. (I don't count the Gabspaz because that was an atypical moment. Gabs could easily - and more convincingly - have reverted to her pacifist side after that episode.) Whether TPTB knew, by Chakram, that Jennifer Sky was signed up for C2525, I don't know. My guess is they probably did, since Gabs' sudden fighting ability does seem rather - well, sudden. Why would they write it like that unless they needed to? Given more time, they could have laid a better foundation for Gabs' transformation (if it was ever needed) while Amarice did the warrior stuff. I assume that RT's idea was to have Gabs ultimately take over from Xena, but at that stage (start of S5) there was a long way to go and plenty of time for that to develop. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #262 **************************************