From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #259 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, September 3 2003 Volume 03 : Number 259 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena on DVD question ["Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 No snippage of Ife's lovely post--there's just so much to digest and comment on in there... On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > > One interesting question to me was why was Xena so ready to serve Lao Ma? > > She is EAGER to offer her her service. How did Lao Ma so easily turn > > Xena's head that far around? And how did Xena feel when Lao Ma literally > > threw her around the room as punishment for trying to murder her son? > > Damn, I wish we'd had a scene with Xena and Borias discussing what > > happened to them at Lao Ma's place that day. >> > > > I think Lao Ma got to Xena on several levels. First, as with Akemi, I think > Xena is a little intrigued that Lao Ma knows who she is. Xena likes bright > people, and Akemi and Lao Ma are obviously interested in more than how their > hair looks. Both are women of the world in their own ways, having been exposed > to power and powerful families -- able to size people up and not be intimidated > by powerful people. Oh, VERY nice comparison of Akemi and Lao Ma. Of course, Akemi was born into a powerful circle. Lao Ma was introduced into a house of power as a sexual slave. Akemi as a female, is like Lao Ma, also somewhat on the fringes of power-- I expect that this is why they are "able to size people up". They need that skill to get along and get done what they want done. And of course, Akemi uses this skill on the physically powerful Xena also. Akemi probably is not intimidated by powerful people because even though she is on the fringes, she is part of the power structure, belonging to her father and also her grandfather, who was probably also powerful. Lao Ma is less intimidated because she was a concubine who beat the system. Lao Tzu took her as his wife. And she probably knows many things about M'ing Tzu that enables her to stand up to him and say, "You sold me. And you expect loyalty?" One wonders why he sold her to Lao Tzu. And what he thinks of her now. Wow, immediately I realized that FIN was season six's homage to The Debt, but I didn't really think about the strong parallels between Lao Ma and Akemi. My thanks to you and Cheryl for pointing these out. Damn, I wish we had more of Lao Ma's backstory. > > Second, Xena is a bit desperate when she literally runs into Lao Ma in the > forest, dogs snapping at her heels and all. Lao Ma saves her when she doesn't > have to and against the wishes of a poweful, dangerous man. I think the > loyalty Lao Ma sees in Xena was already there to some extent and that even the wild, > untrusting young Xena was impressed by Lao Ma's actions. > Yesssss. Yeah, and of course at first Xena is VERY suspicious. I LOVE how Lucy plays Xena in the bathing scene very like a wounded wild animal that has been brought into safety by a kind-hearted human. Lao Ma is so gentle with her as she cleans her and sooths her by combing her hair. (If she'd had some ribbons, she'd probably have had Xena looking like a poodle by the end of the grooming session.) I love the looks on Lucy's face, letting us see Xena's racing mind as she wonders what the scheme is. And what the payment will be in the future. > Third, and perhaps most significiantly, Lao Ma had powers and insight that > Xena wanted to learn. Xena has already experienced what Lao Ma could do, when > Lao Ma stops Xena's knives with hair brushes and proceeds to knock Xena to > kingdom come without even touching her. In the forest, Lao Ma stares at that > snarling dog and turns him into a simpering puppy. She fools Papa T'ien in the > hot tub scene, not to mention teaching Xena about breathing underwater. Xena is > nothing else, if not a ravenous student of power and will do most anything to > get it. Yes, I think this is a BIG reason that Xena stays with Lao Ma. As we've talked about in the past, Xena is always a student, always seeking out new things to learn. I love how you say, "student of power", but I think she's also attracted to learning anything at all that will be useful to her. (Like the meditation skills she shows in "Paradise Found" and her knowledge of geometry as displayed in the fabulous chakram toss in "Been There, Done That".) The grrl ain't afraid to be the smartest one in the room. She seeks to be that. And yeah, that also is certainly a source of power. > In fact, initially, I don't see much difference between her > attraction to Lao Ma and her giddy glombing on to Alti. OOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo. Hmmm. Yes. The minute Alti came into the yurt, she immediately talked about being driven away from the Amazons because she was too powerful. And backed up her words with the display of her power over Anokin. Essentially, "Look, they threw me out. But I brought along a memento." And immediately captures Xena's interest and attention. But it is in the continuance of Xena's relationship with Lao Ma and Alti that a difference comes in. Xena in The Debt seems to me to be ready to assume a role of lieutenant for Lao Ma. She eagerly offers, "I could serve you." And Lao Ma answers, "Oh course you can. It's easy to serve someone you love. You feel it will make them love you more. It's like a good business investment." (Another Lao Ma/Akemi parallel. Both women believe that Xena loves them. Or will come to love her, in Akemi's case.) She then waits on M'ing Tzu to please Lao Ma. She lets Lao Ma dress her in "civilian" clothes. She scurries along in her wake like a little puppy. She kneels patiently beside Lao Ma (after Lao Ma kicks her butt for kicking Borias' butt.) She's just...subservient, for the one and only time in the series. Reforming Xena can be very humble. But is never subservient. Evil Xena was subservient for Lao Ma. Subservient in a way that seems to me to be unique in her life. And THAT'S what I find intriguing. I would say that Xena loved Lao Ma far more than she loved Akemi. Note--this doesn't bother me the way those other out of character things we've discussed do, it's just VERY intriquing. I don't see this desire to serve Lao Ma as out of character so much as a unique response to this particular person on Xena's part, at that point in her life. > > While I believe Xena truly saw Lao Ma as an honorable person in a way that > she didn't Alti, Xena also saw a powerful woman who knew how to use people -- > her husband, Pappa T'ien and perhaps Xena herself. Xena willingly put herself > in the hands of those who could teach her something, but not to the extent of > losing her independence. When she gets the use of her legs back and Lao Ma > first beckons her to join her, does Xena come running toward Lao Ma in gratitude? > Nuh uh. She runs the other way, testing out her abilities. Lao Ma has to > bring Xena to her with that cloth, only after which Xena expresses affectionate > appreciation. Then what does she do? She proceeds to whomp Borias. > Yeah, you've talked about this before--about how Xena dashes off and gives her fixed legs a test run. I think this is SO Xena. This woman with the incredibly powerful and competent body having been imprisoned by her crippled legs and just literally jumping off the walls in joy at getting her strength and agility back. Immediately TESTING how well she works now. I loved that. How hard that loss of function must have been for Xena, how great a gift it is that Lao Ma has given her by returning it to her. And I never noticed until you wrote about it that Lao Ma had called Xena to come to her and that Xena blew her off to launch into her acrobatic celebration. (Lucy is just SO beautiful in the Debt--and so joyously excited in this scene--I missed a LOT of the Debt the first 20 or 30 times I watched it, just 'cause I was so busy watching Lucy work.) I just rewatched that scene and yeah you're right--Lao Ma literally lassos Xena to corral her back to her. I remembered the floating fabric show, but I didn't realize that Xena for the first time had turned away when Lao Ma beckoned. Perhaps it was as simple as "Xena's legs hurt". And under the protection of Lao Ma, she felt she could overcome that disability. Shrug. > IOW, I saw little evidence that Xena was so ready to "serve" Lao Ma, so much > as be in her company as an apprentice of sorts, except with an affection she > didn't feel for someone like Alti. (I remember how torn she was between Alti > and Cyane, when the latter beat the former in a spiritual duel, except that the > latter offered Xena "a better deal.") After Lao Ma's first mention of the > Warrior Princess thing (which has some butt kicking aspects Xena likes), what do > we see Xena do? The one thing Lao Ma didn't want her to do (at that point, > anyway) -- kill Lao Ma's son. I doubt Xena felt surprised or betrayed by Lao > Ma's tossing her and Borias around. Her own shallowness and single-minded > focus on power made her miscalculate her value as compared to the value Lao Ma > placed on her son. At the time, she probably thought Lao Ma was stupid for > making that choice. I think she was surprised. She hasn't had Solon yet. She doesn't have the grizzly bear mother heart yet. It's funny though that she knows that the key to M'ing Tzu's compliance is to kidnap his son. But she somehow doesn't extrapolate that to expecting the same son's mother to be as protective and as willing to do whatever it takes to keep him safe. And to choose him over anybody else. > > As with most of the potential positive influences on young Xena, I don't > think Xena recognized her "debt" to Lao Ma at the time, anymore than she > recognized her debt to Borias or Cyane. I think she went along for her own > self-interest (as she did with Akemi), which is why Reformed Xena expresses such regret > and guilt later on. The deep feelings and appreciation we hear her express are > retrospective. When I watch the flashbacks as if I didn't know Xena's later > perspective, I don't see someone who understands the gifts she's being offered > by people like Borias, Cyane or Lao Ma (though perhaps she does with Akemi). > I see someone who is using those people and expects it's perfectly logical > that they would seek to use her as well. > Yes, excellent analysis. Exactly--this is a HUGE part of Xena's guilt. The chances she threw away, the people she threw away who were all offering paths that could have brought her home to her humanity a lot earlier in her life. It definitely must eat at her at times. KT > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 02:47:26 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, cr wrote: > On Sunday 31 August 2003 09:10, KTL wrote: > > > > The only time she "clutched" was when she asked Xena to place her ashes in > > her family shrine. Akemi has to know the townspeople will be against this > > and will feel they have to defend their dead from desecration. > > Well, here we're into total speculation (because TPTB have given us no > background). But I disagree with you. Akemi may know that there's some > degree of disapproval of such actions. She may also figure that Yodoshi is > such a monster that no-one will object. She's been out of the country for > some time, she has no way of knowing the exact mood of the townspeople (or > one tiny segment that constitutes the mob); I don't know if anyone could. > Snipped analogies for bandswidth sake > Now, would anyone care to predict > whether the 'antis' felt strongly enough to organise a violent demonstration? > I think, in most towns, that probably wouldn't happen. But again, if it did > happen, not many people would consider it an 'unbelievable' occurence. > > This, I think, is where Akemi's burial in Higuchi probably lies. That the > degree of opposition (manifested by a very small percentage of the > townspeople, remember, and maybe not even 'mainstream', possibly a sect) was > just not predictable. No, I think it's perfectly predictable. And my speculation is fueled by twenty years of studying human culture. Death is one of the big three--birth, reproduction and death are the bottom line for cultures---everything else in society pretty much revolves around these physical peaks. Every society has laws on both what to do and what not to do concerning these events. And every society has both traditions and taboos associated with handling their dead. In fact, one of the reasons anthropologists decided that Neanderthals had greater intellect than had previously been attributed to them was finding that they followed burial rituals. One famous discovery was of a body that had been smeared with red ochre and that had apparently had some flowers associated with it. This is in some dispute--some folks believe that rodents were responsible for the presence of the flower seeds. BUT the indisputable finding was that there was a cultural response to death, a respect for the body and an appropriate way to take care of the body. And this lifted the Neanderthal's up from, well roughly from at the best being sub-human to being almost, maybe, even really human with a real abstract culture. So for any culture that uses cemetaries, protecting the sacred ground wherein the dead are laid to rest is important and necessary. Even today in our very urban and scientifically geared society, the desecration of graves is still considered extremely offensive. And is against the law. And certainly in Japan, with the reverence for ancestors, rules governing the dead are most likely very strict. So the people of Higuchi were not operating just out of a mob mentality. They were protecting their dead in their sacred place from being contaminated by the ashes of a person who had committed a heinous crime and was therefore supposed to be denied burial with the rest of the community. Akemi had also committed suicide. I don't know if in Japan ritual suicides are treated differently, but I do know that in many societies, suicides are not allowed to be buried in the cemetary. Right outside it yes, usually in a special section. But inside with the rest of the folks--no. Oooo, I suddenly realized that I could look for info on the internet. Check out the rules for Shinto burials here. (I'm assuming Tapert and Stewart considered Akemi Shinto, since the Kami are part of that religion.) http://www.worldclass.net/TeachingGlobally/WorldReligions/shinto_funerals.htm Extensive and complicated. And VERY structured and defined. And something not to be messed with. > > > > > > ... and people complain that the ending came out of nowhere. ;) > > > Didn't that just scream "Full circle"? > > > > Yes. And FIN was full circle. It completed Xena's redemption. This time > > she WILL be able to give up being a warrior. Unlike last time when she is > > shown that she is just not ready to stop being a warrior yet--that her > > redemption will come through her being a warrior for good instead of evil. > > This time, she's ready. > > > > KT > > I was pinching the title of the last Herc ep. Except that ep wasn't really > full circle for Herc. Ah. As you know, I never got into Herc. In fact God Fearing Child was the true Herc finale, > and look what happened there - Zeus kills Hera, Herc kills Zeus. > You can't say RT wasn't consistent. :) > > cr Grin. The only way RT was consistent was in his constant pushing of the envelope. Which lead to many "inconsistancies" in the series. but also led just as often to true artistic accomplishment. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 03:28:58 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, cr wrote: > On Sunday 31 August 2003 07:10, KTL wrote: > > I have been SOOOOOO busy in work. (Most recently escorting my senior > > tourists around the town of Moose Pass, Alaska). > > Moose Pass? I bet they renamed it for the tourists. I bet it started out > in life as Higgins Swamp or somesuch. ;) Did not! It has a long and interes... well, it has a long history (for Alaska.) Here's just one of numerous (well, there's at least two) websites devoted to the town. http://www.moosepassalaska.com/ It's worth looking at just for the graphic at the bottom of the page. > > It was only with the introduction of Evil Xena in the Debt that XWP was > > transformed from being a cheesy parody of myths into being a true myth all > > of its own, featuring a hero who was extraordinarily original and > > compelling. snip snip > > Very acutely observed. Actually, RT started to do that in Destiny, when > Xena 's backstory suddenly started getting interesting. And Xena was 'bad' > in that episode, she was a pirate, and pirates are known to be bad (though > also rather dashing and romantic - in fiction, I hasten to add). And she > did open by burning the town of - ummm - (damn! where's that map? never mind- > ) - Stagyra, IIRC. But she wasn't real evil in-yer-face bad in that > episode. (And I don't count the scene in the hut, she had provocation ;) > Exactly. She was just "warlord of the week" bad then. She was still the person who "didn't kill women and children", who saved the life of a baby despite it costing her her command and who grieved over what her army did in Cirra. (Though we had already seen her crouch in the sand and coldly watch Callisto die by then. I think that scene and much of the Price was excellent foreshadowing for just how inhuman Xena could be when pushed. Even our good reforming Xena.) But truly evil Xena, a person who would kidnap a child and brick him up to die if his dad doesn't deal for him, doesn't appear until the Debt. snip snip > Actually, he got us to fall in love with a couple of other true villains, too > - Ares and Callisto. Maybe if the villain in American Gothic had been as > fascinating as either of them, the show might have taken off. Wellllll, I loved Callisto but I never considered her a hero. She was the villain! Actually she was an incredible creation of Stewart's--the "shadow Xena" who stirred up such feelings of guilt in Xena and who raised very interesting questions on WHY Xena got to get away with what she'd done in the past, when Callisto suffered every day for it. Way kewl character AND plot device to examine the hero all rolled into one. As for Ares, I never loved him until he loved Xena. He was SLIMY! Ugh. And then he went and fell helplessly in love. And was transformed by his love for another. This is a constant theme of XWP--transformation of characters through love. NOBODY comes out the same at the end of the series. Which is damn fine storytelling. > > And for most of us showing Xena's truly evil past > > did not make us abandon her in disgust, it only made us root for her all > > the more because we suddenly found out just how huge a burden she had to > > overcome. > > Yes. Though, technically, you're incorrect - when we first saw Xena (that > is, those of 'us' who watched Herc), she was 100% bad, trying to get Iolaus > and Herc to kill each other so she could plunder the Pelopponese. She's scheming against two strong warriors. Plain old warlord of the week stuff. Though > she did *look* gorgeous as always, and us guys will forgive any woman who > looks like that and achieves her evil plans by seducing us in the bath.... > hrrrrm... anyway, to get back to my point, she was bad but intriguing > when we first saw her. But by episode two (The Gauntlet) she'd started to > become heroic in some ways and by episode three (Unchained Heart) she was > firmly in the hero camp. And stayed there as an unadulterated hero, if one > with a vaguely unspecified Dark Past, until, as you say, The Debt. > Yes this is exactly my point. That we didn't get the truly horrific details (like the destruction of the Northern Amazons just to get their blood to enhance the power of her buddy Alti) until after season three. The appearance of Evil Xena totally revamped the whole story because it revealed further specific details about the character of the hero. (Made it a much better story, in my mind.) > > at this stage of FIN, Akemi is no Lao Ma in Xena's eyes. She's just a > > hostage. And Xena is just there for the money. > > I didn't see a lot of 'adoration and praise' from Akemi, not explicitly. I > think that would have turned Xena off. It was much more understated than > that. Akemi obviously respected Xena for her knowledge and abilities, but > without being servile or sycophantic about it. I think that appealed to > Xena, and the other factor was that Akemi showed remarkable courage and > coolness for a girl of her age. For example, in Kao's castle, Akemi was not > afraid to insult the warlord who was holding her captive; and at the > grandfather's grave, where Xena drew her sword, Akemi (in poker terms) raised > the stakes by pulling her hair out of the way. That was cool. Akemi was > not afraid of Xena, and that increased Xena's respect for Akemi. In fact, > Akemi treated Xena as an equal, which subtly encouraged Xena to treat Akemi > the same way. > > Very good points. Though standing up to Xena CAN be dangerous. "I wuud hahf takeen de gohld." snip, snip > > > Well that's it for now. I'll let you digest this much for now. I now > > > can go watch FIN again - just call me obsessed. > > > > I travel with my FIN dvd all the time-but I gotta admit, as soon as the > > Debt comes out on dvd, that one will also be hitting the road with me, > > with or without FIN. > > > > KT > > And Sin Trade, I hope? ;) > > cr Only the Debt is mandatory. But Sin Trace is certainly a strong contender to become The Debt's traveling companion. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:16:54 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Wednesday 03 September 2003 09:07, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/2/03 4:18:34 AM Central Daylight Time, > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > <<(I LOVE how when Xena > goes off to fight, he trundles off after her bringing her her chakram. I > could just envision that if they had gotten together, there'd be Xena off > defending their town and children while Darius comes out and brings her > her lunch every day. And probably sings at night, "Stand by your > warrior...")>> > > LOL! You know,I hadn't focused before how that ep stood traditional images > on their heads, while at the same time exploring them. First, Xena comes > to the rescue, after Daddy Darius gets knocked out. Next we see him > tenderly caring for her, saying, "not in my house" when she wants to keep > her weapons on, giving her a look when she's telling the kids about her > fight with the Titans, and trying to persuade her not to fight the > warlords. Darius probably would've wanted her to give up her warrior ways, > but, as you suggest, I bet he'd have resigned himself to it and been > content to support "mommy" as she went off to fight. You know, Darius seemed like a really genuinely nice guy. And (IIRC, my memories of this ep are a little hazy) Xena seemed to be very tempted to settle down with him. But of course, that was impossible for Xena, for all sorts of reasons. (Not least because she had a series to make ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:39:25 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena on DVD question > Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:26:39 -0400 (EDT) > From: cjlnh@webtv.net (Cheryl LaScola) > Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena on DVD > > Hello friends, > If some of you had more patience than I did and have not bought Season I > yet, Best Buy has a sale today (not sure how long it lasts) to buy BOTH > Season I & II BOTH with added footage (I w/ director's DVD & II with the > LL,ROC,RT commentary)....for $34.99 each!!!! > Here's a question? Best Buy is being sued for the over use of "lost leaders." I s this a lost leader example. Selling the DVDs so low other outlest can't compet. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:20:41 -0700 From: "Ernie" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: abreviations Got it. Thanks for the info, gang, it's much appreciated. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" To: "Ernie" ; Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 4:36 AM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: abreviations > On Tuesday 02 September 2003 11:16, Ernie wrote: > > Please forgive me if this has been asked and answered before, but I'm > > unfamiliar with this... > > > > What does IIRC stand for? I see it used frequently on this list. > > If I Recall Correctly, AFAIK. > > cr > .. okay, As Far As I Know ;) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:45:33 -0500 From: "Mark B." Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 cr wrote: > > > You know, Darius seemed like a really genuinely nice guy. And (IIRC, my > memories of this ep are a little hazy) Xena seemed to be very tempted to > settle down with him. But of course, that was impossible for Xena, for all > sorts of reasons. (Not least because she had a series to make ;) > > It kinda made me wonder about that. Could it be that she was unsure of her course in life now. She had decided to give up the warlord thing. Perhaps rescuing G and village was impromptu. After all, she did tell Draco in that ep that she was wanting to go home. After being booted out from Amphipolis [with help from G], this was really her first 'help the villagers for no good reason other than it feels right'. I agree that she did seem to be more than merely polite with Darius when she declined his offer. After all, in Amphipolis she was not fighting Draco to protect the village, he was looking for her! Mark ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:23:25 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 In a message dated 9/3/03 4:34:54 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << No snippage of Ife's lovely post--there's just so much to digest and comment on in there... >> Hello? KT? That you? You been on one too many cruises with your seniors? That's okay. I'll take any compliments when I can. Thanks! <> Oooo, another good point, in terms of using more subtly subversive ways to get someone powerful to be their "weapon" or "instrument. In a way, Xena personifies their own "dark" sides. (Reminds me of your comment about Callisto's being Xena's shadow.) Xena is someone who can do what they cannot. They see in her someone they can trust to fulfill their wishes. She doesn't immediately, but they're right. << Wow, immediately I realized that FIN was season six's homage to The Debt, but I didn't really think about the strong parallels between Lao Ma and Akemi. >> I also saw it as homage to Sins and Destiny. In both of these, we see Xena encountering young women who will help Xena achieve self-actualization. Xena rescues Gabrielle, as she did Akemi. Her friendship with them ultimately leads her on missions of the highest altruism. M'Lila rescues Xena, just as Lao Ma did. Both of their spirits save her again later, when she is about to die, by inspiring her to have faith in herself, her love and spiritual power. M'Lila and Gabrielle want nothing from Xena except that she live to fulfill her potential. Lao Ma and Akemi do need Xena, but they also speak of her potential beyond raw power. Each inspired Xena in a different way, and I see elements of all of them represented in AFIN -- e.g., the "pinch" (M'Lila) she uses to say goodbye to Gabrielle, the listening she does in battle -- where she seems to empty herself (Lao Ma) and go to some other plane that allows her to both focus on her love for Gabrielle and do physically impossible feats to defeat an army, maybe by even tapping into the "khami" (?) Akemi spoke of. << The grrl ain't afraid to be the smartest one in the room. She seeks to be that. And yeah, that also is certainly a source of power. >> LOL! "Knowledge is power." > In fact, initially, I don't see much difference between her > attraction to Lao Ma and her giddy glombing on to Alti. OOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo. Hmmm. Yes. The minute Alti came into the yurt, she immediately talked about being driven away from the Amazons because she was too powerful. And backed up her words with the display of her power over Anokin. Essentially, "Look, they threw me out. But I brought along a memento." And immediately captures Xena's interest and attention.>> Not to mention sensing that Xena is preggers. Xena seems drawn to Alti as soon as the witch enters the room. Xena could smell power a mile away. <> I believe Xena may have thought her relationship with Alti would continue as well, that she'd be able (as the Destroyer of Nations) to benefit from the power she helped Alti achieve. Remember how Alti tells Xena to imagine how powerful she'd be with spiritual powers? I doubt being able to visit the Land of the Dead was the only power Xena had in mind, even though that did ultimately help her defeat Alti. << Xena in The Debt seems to me to be ready to assume a role of lieutenant for Lao Ma. She eagerly offers, "I could serve you." And Lao Ma answers, "Oh course you can. It's easy to serve someone you love. You feel it will make them love you more. It's like a good business investment." (Another Lao Ma/Akemi parallel. Both women believe that Xena loves them. Or will come to love her, in Akemi's case.) >> Actually, I think Lao Ma was acknowledging that Xena had a rather shallow understanding of love. I don't believe she trusted the depth of that love yet, that she knew it would take time to truly develop it. She patiently teaches Xena and puts her through some tests first, only after which she feels enough mutual trust had been established to heal Xena's legs. She didn't seem all that surprised when Xena rather quickly succumbed to her old ways, though I don't think Lao Ma wasn't prepared for Xena to so quickly use her lessons against Lao Ma. (I love how Xena bows her head and seems to defer to Papa T'ien as she proposes that dice throw.) << She then waits on M'ing Tzu to please Lao Ma. She lets Lao Ma dress her in "civilian" clothes. She scurries along in her wake like a little puppy. She kneels patiently beside Lao Ma (after Lao Ma kicks her butt for kicking Borias' butt.) She's just...subservient, for the one and only time in the series. Reforming Xena can be very humble. But is never subservient. Evil Xena was subservient for Lao Ma. Subservient in a way that seems to me to be unique in her life. And THAT'S what I find intriguing. I would say that Xena loved Lao Ma far more than she loved Akemi. >> Again, I saw that subservience as superficial and self-serving -- quite characteristic of Delinquent Xena. She knows there'll be some payoff. She uses what she believes Lao Ma wants -- what Lao Ma herself seems to use -- a false subservience that hides what's underneath. Remember all Lao Ma's talk about being an "insignificant wife"? Xena's learning that bravado and obviousness aren't the only or best approaches in all cases. It's not about true humility, but learning about another tactic, another weapon. Borias wanted a woman of passion to equal his own, so she used her body to entice him away from his wife. No doubt she pretended something deeper with him as she learned strategy and leadership from him (just as she did with Odun). Alti got to her through Anokin and probably had Xena nearly eating out of her hand as she taught Xena the shaman rituals and promised even more knowledge. We didn't see her being subservient to them in the same degree as with Lao Ma or showing the same affection, but what I saw with Lao Ma wasn't unique, so much as the lengths Xena would go to when she wanted knowledge that would add to her power. << I just rewatched that scene and yeah you're right--Lao Ma literally lassos Xena to corral her back to her. I remembered the floating fabric show, but I didn't realize that Xena for the first time had turned away when Lao Ma beckoned. >> As I say above, Lao Ma didn't at all act betrayed, hurt or even disappointed. She treated Xena like a child reacting to the first taste freedom from the crib by knocking over a lamp -- indulgent, supportive, showing that she'd love the child anyway. After the thing with Borias, Lao Ma "spanks" ("tough love," heh heh) Xena, makes her take a "time out" on the floor while she admonishes her, basically says Xena can be her little Warrior Princess if she "plays nice," then leaves her to "make up" with Borias. She knew that Xena didn't love herself, which meant she didn't understand why someone else would love her or her own capacity for love. Lao Ma was using a blend of caring, discipline and the promise of new toys to bring Xena along. I saw more of a child/parent relationship than adult/adult. << Perhaps it was as simple as "Xena's legs hurt". And under the protection of Lao Ma, she felt she could overcome that disability. Shrug.>> No, I think Xena had become focused on the inner lessons Lao Ma wanted her to learn. I believe the leg thing totally suprised Xena. She probably thought there'd be less pain, but I don't think she expected instant '"super gams." I believe Lao Ma knew it was a special gift, which she reserved for the right time. Now that I think about it, she was giving Xena her legs symbolically as well -- the freedom to do what she wanted with her physical "wholeness." Xena wouldn't necessarily need her anymore. It was a "leap of faith" on Lao Ma's part, which Xena unfortunately did not pass -- not then, anyway. Ma's tossing her and Borias around. Her own shallowness and single-minded > focus on power made her miscalculate her value as compared to the value Lao Ma > placed on her son. At the time, she probably thought Lao Ma was stupid for > making that choice. I think she was surprised. She hasn't had Solon yet. She doesn't have the grizzly bear mother heart yet. It's funny though that she knows that the key to M'ing Tzu's compliance is to kidnap his son. But she somehow doesn't extrapolate that to expecting the same son's mother to be as protective and as willing to do whatever it takes to keep him safe. And to choose him over anybody else.>> I'm not sure she thought about any fatherly devotion, so much as the importance of an heir to preserving M'ing Tzu's kingdom -- a political pawn. As to Lao Ma, she'd given Xena the impression that the boy couldn't be considered "hers" anymore, despite her obvious feelings for him. Besides, things would be fine for him if the two families could be joined peacefully. If Xena was surprised, I think it was more because she thought Lao Ma would choose unchallenged power vs. worrying about where M'ing Tien's loyalties might lie in the future. In that scenario, Lao Ma would see more value in a Warrior Princess to preserve that power. Again, I just don't see Xena at that point as having some understanding of love that goes much beyond using and be used. It's hard with the flashbacks for me to remember sometimes just how far Xena came in that regard. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:23:21 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 In a message dated 9/3/03 7:14:01 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: << You know, Darius seemed like a really genuinely nice guy. And (IIRC, my memories of this ep are a little hazy) Xena seemed to be very tempted to settle down with him. >> Yes, he did. I'm glad they didn't make him sappy or cowardly. He wanted to be alive for his children and thought he was doing the right thing by trying to negotiate. My one criticism is that he worried too much about what pompous Mr. Righteous thought about Darius caring for someone in his own home, especially after she'd defended them. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #259 **************************************