From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #255 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, August 31 2003 Volume 03 : Number 255 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] ...pondering alernative "reality" [Wizdym4@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Renee O'Connor at London convention ["A. Reddecliffe" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena Circle [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Renee O'Connor at London convention [IfeRae@aol.co] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:52:45 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH In a message dated 8/30/2003 3:00:50 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > So, *have* you ever been present in a situation where someone was trying to > > kill you or someone else? I ask this because people who have been under > fire say that nobody who has not been in such a situation can possibly > imagine what it's like. I believe them. Sorry, thought I'd answered that. Yes, though not necessarily in the specific "under fire" scenario you may have in mind. Regardless, I agree with what you say. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:52:44 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 In a message dated 8/30/2003 2:12:35 PM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > One interesting question to me was why was Xena so ready to serve Lao Ma? > She is EAGER to offer her her service. How did Lao Ma so easily turn > Xena's head that far around? And how did Xena feel when Lao Ma literally > threw her around the room as punishment for trying to murder her son? > Damn, I wish we'd had a scene with Xena and Borias discussing what > happened to them at Lao Ma's place that day. >> I think Lao Ma got to Xena on several levels. First, as with Akemi, I think Xena is a little intrigued that Lao Ma knows who she is. Xena likes bright people, and Akemi and Lao Ma are obviously interested in more than how their hair looks. Both are women of the world in their own ways, having been exposed to power and powerful families -- able to size people up and not be intimidated by powerful people. Second, Xena is a bit desperate when she literally runs into Lao Ma in the forest, dogs snapping at her heels and all. Lao Ma saves her when she doesn't have to and against the wishes of a poweful, dangerous man. I think the loyalty Lao Ma sees in Xena was already there to some extent and that even the wild, untrusting young Xena was impressed by Lao Ma's actions. Third, and perhaps most significiantly, Lao Ma had powers and insight that Xena wanted to learn. Xena has already experienced what Lao Ma could do, when Lao Ma stops Xena's knives with hair brushes and proceeds to knock Xena to kingdom come without even touching her. In the forest, Lao Ma stares at that snarling dog and turns him into a simpering puppy. She fools Papa T'ien in the hot tub scene, not to mention teaching Xena about breathing underwater. Xena is nothing else, if not a ravenous student of power and will do most anything to get it. In fact, initially, I don't see much difference between her attraction to Lao Ma and her giddy glombing on to Alti. While I believe Xena truly saw Lao Ma as an honorable person in a way that she didn't Alti, Xena also saw a powerful woman who knew how to use people -- her husband, Pappa T'ien and perhaps Xena herself. Xena willingly put herself in the hands of those who could teach her something, but not to the extent of losing her independence. When she gets the use of her legs back and Lao Ma first beckons her to join her, does Xena come running toward Lao Ma in gratitude? Nuh uh. She runs the other way, testing out her abilities. Lao Ma has to bring Xena to her with that cloth, only after which Xena expresses affectionate appreciation. Then what does she do? She proceeds to whomp Borias. IOW, I saw little evidence that Xena was so ready to "serve" Lao Ma, so much as be in her company as an apprentice of sorts, except with an affection she didn't feel for someone like Alti. (I remember how torn she was between Alti and Cyane, when the latter beat the former in a spiritual duel, except that the latter offered Xena "a better deal.") After Lao Ma's first mention of the Warrior Princess thing (which has some butt kicking aspects Xena likes), what do we see Xena do? The one thing Lao Ma didn't want her to do (at that point, anyway) -- kill Lao Ma's son. I doubt Xena felt surprised or betrayed by Lao Ma's tossing her and Borias around. Her own shallowness and single-minded focus on power made her miscalculate her value as compared to the value Lao Ma placed on her son. At the time, she probably thought Lao Ma was stupid for making that choice. As with most of the potential positive influences on young Xena, I don't think Xena recognized her "debt" to Lao Ma at the time, anymore than she recognized her debt to Borias or Cyane. I think she went along for her own self-interest (as she did with Akemi), which is why Reformed Xena expresses such regret and guilt later on. The deep feelings and appreciation we hear her express are retrospective. When I watch the flashbacks as if I didn't know Xena's later perspective, I don't see someone who understands the gifts she's being offered by people like Borias, Cyane or Lao Ma (though perhaps she does with Akemi). I see someone who is using those people and expects it's perfectly logical that they would seek to use her as well. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 01:52:02 EDT From: Wizdym4@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] ...pondering alernative "reality" In a message dated 8/31/2003 12:21:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org writes: Akemi oddly enough, trusts Xena--I think like Lao Ma, Akemi saw into Xena's soul and knew what type of person truly lived there. I still wonder at how FIN would have been produced had that Chinese actress who portrayed Lao Ma been available in a timely way. How would that have affected the character's development, the plot and storyline? I believe Rob and Stewart would have been able to delve deeper into Xena's early evolution and her relationship with La Mao....... Hmm...has any fan-fic been done on that alernative "reality"? ............>>>>>>>God/dess Inspire!........>>>>Carmon ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:43:22 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Sunday 31 August 2003 07:10, KTL wrote: > I have been SOOOOOO busy in work. (Most recently escorting my senior > tourists around the town of Moose Pass, Alaska). Moose Pass? I bet they renamed it for the tourists. I bet it started out in life as Higgins Swamp or somesuch. ;) > And have been wanting to > get in on this thread for SOOOOOOO long. I haven't even had time to read > most of this thread, I've just been saving it. But I can't wait any > longer!!!!! Oooh hoo, here we go. ;) > It's tempting to say that Xena is testing Gabrielle to see how well she > will do without her, but at this stage of the ep not even Xena's twitchy > sense appears to suspect that next year she ain't gonna be appearing in > any future Fall new TV show line-ups no more, nuh-huh. But of course, > Tapert and Stewart know it and are shaping their story towards that end. > And towards that end, Xena needs to test Gabrielle to be sure that she can > function without her. That's what I think that little sequence was all > about. > > And even though Xena gets impatient at the end and opens the wheel herself > to save the town, she still praises Gabrielle for her acrobatic troop > emulation. Thus letting us know she's content with her student's test > results. Besides, TPTB wanted to re-do the ladder fight in 'Callisto'. None of those ladder stunts ever worked for me. I keep fretting about centres of gravity and suchlike. :( Anyway, that sequence was the one they chose to distribute as a 'teaser' for the pre-finale publicity (it's in all the interviews LL did about that time). Personally, I think it's the weakest part of the whole ep - lots of action, but little suspense or drama. Not what I watch XWP for. The fight in the teahouse, or even the fight in Kao's castle, the final fight with Yodoshi, were all more interesting and spectacular IMO. (Not to mention Xena's final battle, but maybe they wouldn't want to show that as a teaser). And visually the 'acrobatic' sequence suffers because it's night, all you see on screen is black and red and most TV's don't display red very well. > > Also now is a good time to say farewell to one the Xenaverse's most > > interesting characters Young Xena. > > > > This character has always been a remarkable creation. > > Not just a remarkable creation, but the main reason for me and many others > that the show was so unique and so remarkable. > > It was only with the introduction of Evil Xena in the Debt that XWP was > transformed from being a cheesy parody of myths into being a true myth all > of its own, featuring a hero who was extraordinarily original and > compelling. The presentation of Evil Xena and stories from Xena's horrific > past that were shared with us only after we fell in love with good > reforming Xena, created a myth with a unique take on the hero that Tapert, > Stewart and Lawless continued to weave on our teensy tiny TV screen over > the last four years of the show. There had never been such a character as > Xena in any western Civ storyline that I'm aware of. Very acutely observed. Actually, RT started to do that in Destiny, when Xena 's backstory suddenly started getting interesting. And Xena was 'bad' in that episode, she was a pirate, and pirates are known to be bad (though also rather dashing and romantic - in fiction, I hasten to add). And she did open by burning the town of - ummm - (damn! where's that map? never mind- ) - Stagyra, IIRC. But she wasn't real evil in-yer-face bad in that episode. (And I don't count the scene in the hut, she had provocation ;) > Tapert had tried to make a villain the hero in his and Sam's television > show "American Gothic" which ran from 1995 to 1996. It didn't work. People > don't take to villains who are TRULY villains and not just flawed heroes. > And it appears that he learned his lesson with that show, that even though > it was critically acclaimed, most viewers just would not empathize with a > truly demonic hero. So first he created a character we could sympathize > and agonize with when she talked about her bad past and how it had > affected her life. After we had bonded to this character, THEN he > showed us that past in detail and laid out just how horrific it had been. > > And it was just too late for us to turn against her. We were already in > love with the character. Yeah, quite so. Which gives lfe plenty of ammunition to twit me about overlooking Xena's evil ways on occasion. :) But observe the fiendish cunning of this evil nasty wicked Tapert man. He got us all to fall in love with his *villain*! By disguising her as a hero. Actually, he got us to fall in love with a couple of other true villains, too - - Ares and Callisto. Maybe if the villain in American Gothic had been as fascinating as either of them, the show might have taken off. > And for most of us showing Xena's truly evil past > did not make us abandon her in disgust, it only made us root for her all > the more because we suddenly found out just how huge a burden she had to > overcome. Xena wasn't just a bad, impatient person who broke a few rules. > She was a murdering warlord who killed warrior men and women, who rampaged > through and burned villages filled with innocent people, who made some > children orphans and kidnapped and abused some others, who turned on her > allies without turning a hair. And yet, because we first met her after she > began to turn her life around and knew how horrified she was by what she'd > been and done, we still loved her. (Except for the Gabfundies who have > hated Lucy/Xena for a long time.) And rooted for her to make atonement > and reparations enough to enable her to gain peace from the ripping talons > of her wretched past. Yes. Though, technically, you're incorrect - when we first saw Xena (that is, those of 'us' who watched Herc), she was 100% bad, trying to get Iolaus and Herc to kill each other so she could plunder the Pelopponese. Though she did *look* gorgeous as always, and us guys will forgive any woman who looks like that and achieves her evil plans by seducing us in the bath.... hrrrrm... anyway, to get back to my point, she was bad but intriguing when we first saw her. But by episode two (The Gauntlet) she'd started to become heroic in some ways and by episode three (Unchained Heart) she was firmly in the hero camp. And stayed there as an unadulterated hero, if one with a vaguely unspecified Dark Past, until, as you say, The Debt. > > With the story of her > > relation with Akemi we see why the character did the things she did after > > Chin. Xena meets Akemi after her encounter with La Mao. Xena is still > > very much a barbarian - violent, crude and with an adolescent egotism. > > Xena has begun to see herself as a just a tad better than Borias. > > I don't see that she thought she was better than Borias. WORSE than > Borias, more evil, more irrational, more dangerous yes, but not better. Better at being bad? ;) > > When she meets Akemi > > the girl's adoration and praise stokes Xena's feelings of superiority. > > I don't see this so much. Because I don't think Xena thinks a great deal > of Akemi at this point. She's just a captive. Yes, Xena likes the fact > that she's "known". In the Debt when Lao Ma says, "You must be Xena", > Xena preens and says, "Oh, ya heard o' me?" Like Lucy, Xena wanted fame. > But Xena sought the fame that comes from being feared, from getting her > way because she's such a loose cannon. > > Lao Ma's reply to "Oh ya heard o' me" is, "They say you're a dangerous > woman." > > And Xena growls out, "Well they're right." And again LOVES hearing how > dangerous people consider her to be. Especially does she love hearing it > from an important, powerful woman like Lao Ma. But certainly at this > stage of FIN, Akemi is no Lao Ma in Xena's eyes. She's just a hostage. And > Xena is just there for the money. I didn't see a lot of 'adoration and praise' from Akemi, not explicitly. I think that would have turned Xena off. It was much more understated than that. Akemi obviously respected Xena for her knowledge and abilities, but without being servile or sycophantic about it. I think that appealed to Xena, and the other factor was that Akemi showed remarkable courage and coolness for a girl of her age. For example, in Kao's castle, Akemi was not afraid to insult the warlord who was holding her captive; and at the grandfather's grave, where Xena drew her sword, Akemi (in poker terms) raised the stakes by pulling her hair out of the way. That was cool. Akemi was not afraid of Xena, and that increased Xena's respect for Akemi. In fact, Akemi treated Xena as an equal, which subtly encouraged Xena to treat Akemi the same way. > One interesting question to me was why was Xena so ready to serve Lao Ma? > She is EAGER to offer her her service. How did Lao Ma so easily turn > Xena's head that far around? Errm, the fact that Xena had no allies left (Borias had thrown her to the wolves) and Ming was trying to hunt her to death with dogs, might have had something to do with it. ;) > And how did Xena feel when Lao Ma literally > threw her around the room as punishment for trying to murder her son? > Damn, I wish we'd had a scene with Xena and Borias discussing what > happened to them at Lao Ma's place that day. I wish we'd seen 'what happens next'. Presumably, Xena and Borias retreated from Lao Ma's castle and decided to continue on East in search of easier pickings. > (snip snip) > > > Then finally Xena must do the most > > horrible thing of all kill the girl she has come to love. In the end she > > has a final failure when she can't even bring the ashes to the shrine. > > Xena has found out a terrible thing - love makes you vulnerable and can > > cause great pain. It is no wonder that the Xena that we meet afterwards > > in AITST, Past Imperfect, and The Ring rejects love and uses it only to > > manipulate. Xena has learned from Akemi that love should be feared but > > also that it is powerful weapon. Xena now begins to reject love and see > > it as only fit for fools. > > Xena learned long ago about love making you vulnerable and being able to > cause great pain. She learned that when she lost Lyceus and when her > family and town turned against her after she led them against Cortez. > > Caesar fooling her, Borias betraying her to an enemy, Lao Ma turning > against her, Akemi using her, even her men making her run the > gauntlet (though "love" is not what she felt for them--she did expect > loyalty from them), these all build on Xena's open wounds over the way > loving someone always seems to end for her. With her on the run, > deserted, hurt and always, always alone. (NOT that she didn't usually > bring this on herself. But it still affected her deeply.) > > I think this is what is so beautiful and poignant about the line in FIN, > "Wherever you go, I'm by your side." For the constantly betrayed Xena and > for the constantly overlooked and dismissed Gabrielle, this is a profound > mutual promise that is a cornerstone of their life together. > > > Another remarkable character her is Akemi. This is a remarkable girl. > > Yes she is manipulative - it is the only real power she has -but that > > does nothing to mitigate her strength of character. > > Snipped excellent character assessment of Akemi. We've talked about this > before and I too am an Akemi fan-she was one of the most complex > characters Tapert and Stewart ever created-excellent work on their part. > I think that if Akemi had been dishonorable enough to just walk away from > killing her father and not taken her own life, she would eventually have > been possibly as powerful (and as self-serving...uh, but only for the > Greater Good of course *wink*), a person as Lao Ma was. Perhaps this is > part of what Xena saw in Akemi also--that loss of potential future > greatness from a person such as this. (Along with Akemi's amazing inner > strength and acceptance of responsibility that she kept faithful to > despite what it cost her.) > > Hmmmm. Akemi and Xena both lose their heads. Was Lao Ma "only" scalped or > did she also wind up beheaded also? Nope, Ming tore her heart out IIRC. I presume that was literal rather than metaphorical. Anyway, he got what was coming to him > > Well that's it for now. I'll let you digest this much for now. I now > > can go watch FIN again - just call me obsessed. > > I travel with my FIN dvd all the time-but I gotta admit, as soon as the > Debt comes out on dvd, that one will also be hitting the road with me, > with or without FIN. > > KT And Sin Trade, I hope? ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:44:07 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Sunday 31 August 2003 09:10, KTL wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, cr wrote: > > Random and gratuitous snips to save wear and tear on everyone's > > modems.... > > > > On Thursday 26 June 2003 11:04, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > > Friend In Need Part 1 > > > > This is what Lucy thought 'outed' Xena, IIRC. That Xena 'confessed' to > > Gabby about Akemi, and therefore Xena and Gabs must have had a steady > > relationship. (At least, I *think* this is what Lucy's saying in the > > commentary. > > LL: See we have for years been playing these characters as if they're.... > > > > LL: ... all of a sudden we're coming up and going 'Yup. I had a former > > girlfriend... > > > > LL: ... like it's just an accepted fact that our characters are gay, ) > > > > I don't see it that way at all, though, myself, I think LL's reading too > > much into it. > > Well, she does say a number of times that during the filming of FIN she > was crazed and exhausted. What I find highly amusing is Renee's response > to Lucy's claim that FIN outs Xena. She seems to find Lucy's sudden > ephiphany surprising, since she apparently didn't see anything different > in their relationship in FIN. Lucy confirms this, "So you were playing it > straight again in your own head?" > > And Renee replies, 'Yeah, I was playing it straight". > > But I love Lucy's honesty in saying, "Damn! This ep shows Xena was in love > with a GIRL!" But of course, Lucy has always been a strong and vocal > supporter of an X&G are sexual lovers take being as valid as any take on > the show. > > And I also appreciate that she's not overly happy that Rob "outed" > Xena--as she always adds, "And why did we have to do that?", preferring to > let people see what they see. (This disclaimer never seems to appear in > the gay magazines that talk about Lucy's sudden realization of Xena's > breadth of sexuality, oddly enough...grin) > > > > Her fuming is cut short > > > when Akemi asks her to restore her honor by cutting off her head. For > > > once the young Xena is struck dumb by the magnitude of the request. > > > She won't ... she can't but Akemi takes matters into her own hands when > > > she plunges a sword into her own stomach. Xena screaming, in grief and > > > rage, takes the katana and finishes what Akemi has started. > > > > That was a magnificent death scene. And Akemi could always surprise > > Xena. > > Wow. That's very true. Akemi did surprise Xena. Time and again. What a > fascinating character she was. So complex, so intelligent, so talented > and so honorable. A sensitive and aware poet forced to be an avenging > murderer of her own father. Jeebs. And as you say elsewhere, Michelle > Ang was just so incredible in that part. Actually, she was best in her > stillness and in her gestures. She played the part of an exasperated girl > very well but also the part of a tragic figure who didn't carry any > self-pity. > > The only time she "clutched" was when she asked Xena to place her ashes in > her family shrine. Akemi has to know the townspeople will be against this > and will feel they have to defend their dead from desecration. Well, here we're into total speculation (because TPTB have given us no background). But I disagree with you. Akemi may know that there's some degree of disapproval of such actions. She may also figure that Yodoshi is such a monster that no-one will object. She's been out of the country for some time, she has no way of knowing the exact mood of the townspeople (or one tiny segment that constitutes the mob); I don't know if anyone could. I'd like to make an analogy - let's consider a small town in America today, and consider burying someone in the local churchyard. There are some things that would (I think) be 100% guaranteed to arouse strong opposition - burying a local Satanist who demanded that a black Mass be held over his grave, for example. I think that would guarantee trouble. There are other things that would hardly raise an eyebrow - burying, say, a local man who had been 'living in sin' with his de facto wife for the last thirty years. And there are a large class, I think, of 'maybe' scenarios - things that might or might not arouse opposition. For example, if one of an openly gay couple dies of AIDS and his/her partner wants to have a service in the local church. I *guarantee* that there will be some of the congregation who think they are spawn of the Devil and should not be allowed anywhere near the church; there will be some who think it's the couples' own business and see nothing in it; and there will be some who disapprove of gays but think they have a right to a decent burial just like anyone else. Now, would anyone care to predict whether the 'antis' felt strongly enough to organise a violent demonstration? I think, in most towns, that probably wouldn't happen. But again, if it did happen, not many people would consider it an 'unbelievable' occurence. But either way, I doubt whether there's a universal rigid doctrine that "gays *shall not* be buried in churchyards" such that anyone (such as a modern Akemi) should know it. This, I think, is where Akemi's burial in Higuchi probably lies. That the degree of opposition (manifested by a very small percentage of the townspeople, remember, and maybe not even 'mainstream', possibly a sect) was just not predictable. I would also point out the common randomness of such events, whereby demonstrations or other social disturbances sometimes happen, not because the object of the disturbance really merits such a commotion of itself, but for extraneous reasons - maybe everyone's p***ed off at the latest land tax, or the harvest didn't come in, and they're (unconsciously) just ready for a bit of aggro. Like British football hooligans. Then there's the 'rent-a-mob' phenomenon, whereby someone (who is good at manipulating people) stirs things up 'because they can' or to exercise their power. For example, the organised opposition to The Way being screened, which apparently originated in an internal power struggle in the Hare Krishnas whereby one faction decided to show what they could do. It had stuff-all to do with the merits or otherwise of 'The Way', that episode was just a target of opportunity. Whoo! That was a lot! > But I > imagine that Akemi also figures Xena would be the one person who could > possibly accomplish this. (Though it MIGHT have been helpful for Xena to > know that there could be "trouble" over this and it might be best to just > slip them ashes in there in the dark of night.) Akemi oddly enough, trusts > Xena--I think like Lao Ma, Akemi saw into Xena's soul and knew what type > of person truly lived there. Yes, undoubtedly. And how could Xena refuse and still keep her self-respect? > > > Xena now alone > > > buries her armor like she did years ago in a forest outside of > > > Potedeia; after this day she won 't need them. > > > > ... and people complain that the ending came out of nowhere. ;) > > Didn't that just scream "Full circle"? > > Yes. And FIN was full circle. It completed Xena's redemption. This time > she WILL be able to give up being a warrior. Unlike last time when she is > shown that she is just not ready to stop being a warrior yet--that her > redemption will come through her being a warrior for good instead of evil. > This time, she's ready. > > KT I was pinching the title of the last Herc ep. Except that ep wasn't really full circle for Herc. In fact God Fearing Child was the true Herc finale, and look what happened there - Zeus kills Hera, Herc kills Zeus. You can't say RT wasn't consistent. :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:28:55 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 On Sunday 31 August 2003 13:44, cr wrote: > On Sunday 31 August 2003 09:10, KTL wrote: > > On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, cr wrote: Oh, drat! Apologies to the list, I'd meant to go back answer the first half of KT's post *before* I hit Send... otherwise I obviously should have snipped it. One comment ... > > Well, she does say a number of times that during the filming of FIN she > > was crazed and exhausted. What I find highly amusing is Renee's response > > to Lucy's claim that FIN outs Xena. She seems to find Lucy's sudden > > ephiphany surprising, since she apparently didn't see anything different > > in their relationship in FIN. Lucy confirms this, "So you were playing it > > straight again in your own head?" > > > > And Renee replies, 'Yeah, I was playing it straight". > > > > But I love Lucy's honesty in saying, "Damn! This ep shows Xena was in > > love with a GIRL!" But of course, Lucy has always been a strong and vocal > > supporter of an X&G are sexual lovers take being as valid as any take on > > the show. > > > > And I also appreciate that she's not overly happy that Rob "outed" > > Xena--as she always adds, "And why did we have to do that?", preferring > > to let people see what they see. (This disclaimer never seems to appear > > in the gay magazines that talk about Lucy's sudden realization of Xena's > > breadth of sexuality, oddly enough...grin) Oh, well spotted. Howcome I never thought to make that point? As late as the end of You Are There, TPTB were making it quite obvious they were taking the 'neither confirm nor deny' approach. As I said in a previous post, I think LL was reading too much into the words in FIN, it isn't as if we haven't heard that sort of line a dozen times before in the series. I don't think RT and RJ were deliberately trying to 'out' X and G. In fact, if they had been, that scene where Xena was showing Gabby the pinch before she went off for her final battle, would have been the obvious place to do it. If they were intending to explicitly 'out' Xena, that early conversation about Akemi was a very low-key way to do it. And, IMO, certainly not explicit anyway. So I think RT and RJ just carried their usual policy through to the end of the show. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:23:42 +0100 From: "A. Reddecliffe" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Renee O'Connor at London convention Yesterday (30th August) Renee O'Connor finally did a convention in London, England. It had been a long wait, but finally it was so worth it. Not only did she come to London, but she did her first Q&A session in 6 years here. I can't exactly say she was on the London stage as she abandoned the stage almost immediately and got down into the auditorium among the fans. She walked around, took questions from the floor, took the mike to fans so we could all hear the questions. She signed autographs as she went round and answered questions, posed for photographs and make up close and personal contact with the British fans. Not a security guard in sight :-) She seemed to be loving every minute of it and having as good a time as we were. She was scheduled for half an hour, but repeatedly ignored prompts to wrap it up and carried on asnwering questions, posing for photos and signing things. She had real stage presence and electrified the British audience in a way that I have rarely seen. (I think the last time was when a packed Royal Albert Hall gave Patrick Stewart a standing ovation for walking onto the stage.) We had many attendees from other European countries who had come to see Renee and she was definitely worth the trip. Even when she was finally enticed off the stage, some fans met her in the lift straight afterwards and she was friendly and acknowledging to them. Love Letters was done with Renee and Tim sitting at a table. I think lecterns worked better when they did it at Cherry Hill. Still, ROC was in tears at the end of the performance, really getting into the emotional depth of the character. Great performance. Renee showed that she can capture an audience through real stage presence. Our main question now is, when will she be back in England again? Ann ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:25:10 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena Circle In a message dated 8/30/2003 10:16:17 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > Of course this is a marketing ploy. What's wrong with that? At least > Anchor Bay is making a real effort to merchandise Xena to the general > public. Oh, absolutely. It's just that I got a different impression of it at first -- like it would be focused more on the show, not selling merchandise. Maybe the Circle will interest fans who have little knowledge of past and current discussion groups. etc., which would be great. I'm thinking folks might be disappointed if they expect much more than notices about products or special features -- especially among those of us who already have sources for a wide range of information and in-depth discussion. As it is, encouraging us to market among ourselves is like preaching to the choir. I'd've wanted my name on their mailing list if they'd simply said, "We'll be offering quality merchandise with bonus features and special promotions." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:27:12 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 In a message dated 8/31/2003 1:33:56 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Sunday 31 August 2003 07:10, KTL wrote: > >It's tempting to say that Xena is testing Gabrielle to see how well she > >will do without her, but at this stage of the ep not even Xena's twitchy > >sense appears to suspect that next year she ain't gonna be appearing in > >any future Fall new TV show line-ups no more, nuh-huh. But of course, > >Tapert and Stewart know it and are shaping their story towards that end. > >And towards that end, Xena needs to test Gabrielle to be sure that she can > >function without her. That's what I think that little sequence was all > >about. > > > >And even though Xena gets impatient at the end and opens the wheel herself > >to save the town, she still praises Gabrielle for her acrobatic troop > >emulation. Thus letting us know she's content with her student's test > >results. > > Besides, TPTB wanted to re-do the ladder fight in 'Callisto'. None of > those ladder stunts ever worked for me. I keep fretting about centres of > gravity and suchlike. :( > > Anyway, that sequence was the one they chose to distribute as a 'teaser' for > > the pre-finale publicity (it's in all the interviews LL did about that > time). > Personally, I think it's the weakest part of the whole ep - lots of action, > but little suspense or drama. Funny, but I just watched a pre-AFIN interview Lucy did with Oxygen, courtesy of a TBV tape I just got. Lucy says that Xena never asked anybody for advice, that this was part of showing the passing of the torch to Gabrielle. It's clear that Lucy gave that aspect more significance than may have come across in that scene or even later scenes. She seems very pleased that it was more "Gabrielle's story," when in fact many of us still focused on it as the conclusion of Xena's story, while others didn't see it as the story they wanted to see about either Gabrielle or the relationship. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:27:09 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Renee O'Connor at London convention In a message dated 8/31/2003 9:21:27 AM Central Daylight Time, a.reddecliffe@ntlworld.com writes: > She had real stage presence and electrified the British audience in > a way that I have rarely seen. (I think the last time was when a packed > Royal Albert Hall gave Patrick Stewart a standing ovation for walking onto > the stage.) We had many attendees from other European countries who had > come to see Renee and she was definitely worth the trip. > Thanks for the report! So wonderful to hear that ROC enjoyed herself and did it her way. I always felt she had a quiet confidence about her that some folks underestimated and took to mean she was being "overshadowed" during her XWP days. She seems to have a good head on her shoulders and an approach to her career that she's taking at her own pace, like Gabrielle. Did she answer any questions about doing more directing in the future? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:27:10 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 1 In a message dated 8/31/2003 2:22:48 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I don't think RT and RJ were deliberately trying to 'out' X and G. > In fact, if they had been, that scene where Xena was showing Gabby the pinch > > before she went off for her final battle, would have been the obvious place > to do it. If they were intending to explicitly 'out' Xena, that early > conversation about Akemi was a very low-key way to do it. And, IMO, > certainly not explicit anyway. So I think RT and RJ just carried their > usual policy through to the end of the show. > I have to agree with you there. I attribute the "new" perspective to Lucy's own "take," once she'd had a chance to reflect on what some of us have been seeing all along, irrespective of the different interpretations we had. That said, I do think Lucy saw why the subtext was maintext for many fans, with as much basis in the show as the more general "best friends" aspect. My suspicion is that she perceived the subtext reading as much more of a "side" or happenstance suggestion of the love between X&G, since that's how she herself played it. Seeing it on screen, however, seems to have given her a new appreciation for the same reaction fans may have had long ago to Xena's relationship with Gabrielle or someone like Lao Ma. I don't take her comments as more than her own personal view. To me, AFIN simply deepened an interpretation that TBTP embraced long ago and could still be seen however a particular fan wanted to see it. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #255 **************************************