From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #243 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, August 23 2003 Volume 03 : Number 243 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Zoe Bell pics at 3rd Annual World Stunt Awards ["Katsu] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Zoe Bell pics at 3rd Annual World Stunt Awards [If] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH ["Jackie M. Young" ] [chakram-refugees] OT: Lurker Surprises ;) ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Lurker Surprises ;) [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:41:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katsunori" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Zoe Bell pics at 3rd Annual World Stunt Awards Hi I just found pics of Zoe (was LL's stunt double) on 3rd Annual World Stunt Awards. She attended it with Quentin Tarantino, Monica Staggs on Kill bill. http://www.worldstuntawards.com/ Click on Press Service and choose "2003 Red Carpet" There were 2 of Hi-Res pics She really look a like LL on the pics that is different from convention pics. I hard she have fractured and dislocated her wrist at a rehearsal in the final weeks of shooting Kill Bill and had 6 months of rehab but looks like she is OK now from the pics. Also There were Jennifer Garner (Alias) with double Shauna Duggins pics in "2003-Show" section Also there are more Zoe's pics on Star File Photo Agency site http://www.starfileonline.com/eventpics.asp?EventName=3rd+Annual+World+Stunt+Awards&offset=-1 But they don't allow you to download pics unless you pay for it. Her arm on the pic is like a log! Enjoy! Katsu The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 02:17:12 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH In a message dated 8/22/2003 6:28:44 PM Central Daylight Time, sgitzou@periaktoi.gr writes: > Well the wrong maybe is mine. I agree too with Sue I think she understood > me. Maybe I didn' t understand Ife's answer and I'm really sorry. Maybe the > frase "things that may not be there" confused me. I wished to say that we > all see the things there but we give different meaning or we don't agree > with them. >> Yep, that's what I meant. The problem was I misunderstood Sue, which is why I said it as I did. It's okay. We're all on the same page. For now. > I think I made things more confused. I'm really sorry, Ife > (Oh that silence of mine, where are you?? My friends here really need you!) > Sophia > No, I made things more confused. And if you bring "silence" back, I may scream. Is that clear enough, my friend? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 02:17:11 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH In a message dated 8/22/2003 10:35:55 PM Central Daylight Time, aemoses@comcast.net writes: > i tell you what i think it is for me. i see xena as a very passionate woman > and a very strongly emotional one. i realize i'm just very demanding and > picky about the way that's enacted. i'm also particular about the way > gabrielle is handled. is there anybody besides me on this list who gives a > hoot about gab, btw? i fell like i'm on the xena version of flawless. *sigh* > >> I absolutely agree with your view of Xena, even if we disagree about how that got portrayed on "Doctor." While Xena is definately my girl and it took awhile for Gabs to grow on me, I have a lot of respect for her. I do not at all see her as the bumbling idiot whom Xena could've done quite well without. I do not like hearing her described as a hapless victim of TPTB or Xena, as opposed to a very strong-willed, evolving young woman who made mistakes like everyone else. I believe she was integral to the "heart" of the show and to bringing out Xena's humanity. I appreciate that ROC was up to the task of raising the character above "sidekick," occasional plot device and the amorphous conceptions of various writers. IOW, yes, I do give a hoot about her, if only because I don't think Xena would be dumb enough to lug dead weight around. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:26:09 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH On Saturday 23 August 2003 10:33, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/22/03 5:05:07 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > md said: > << > i think it's both fun and important to clarify these things b/c there > is a > > > tendency to describe as acceptable in xena emotions and their outcomes > > stereotypically assigned to men (violence, anger, hatred, direct > > revenge). > > Now we're running into shades of meaning - those emotions aren't the ones > usually associated with the term 'emotional'. They have their own terms > of opprobium. > > > Aha! I knew you wouldn't consider anger a "true" emotion. I kept trying > to figure out how Xena could ever be described as "not emotional." (I'm > not saying you said that, tho I think you ideas about "emotionalism" > support such a view.) It's for the same reason that men can storm up and > down a hallway and not be considered "emotional." If it involves yelling, > whacking someone, plotting revenge, etc., it's more "masculine" and > therefore not an emotion! It's something else with a "shade of meaning" > that's somehow less "weak" or ineffective -- not because that's necessarily > true, but because if men do it, it *must* be less emotional -- "weak" or > ineffective. No no no no no no no no no! Anger is an emotion. One amongst many. I wouldn't care to define what is a 'true' emotion and what isn't but anger certainly is one of the primary ones. Stop getting hung up on your doctrinaire feminist viewpoint. Or at least, don't project its assumptions onto me. :) 'Emotional' in its common usage is taken to refer to certain particular emotions - usually a tendency to be easily upset. It is not commonly assumed to refer to all emotions equally. Boredom is an emotion. But if I spend the whole day sitting around bored out of my tree, would you say that was being 'emotional' ? I should hope not, because if you did you'd be giving a totally misleading impression of my behaviour. In other words, 'emotion' and 'emotional' do not carry the exact same shade of meaning. This is very common with related words in English. I am, for instance, a discriminating viewer (that's good - I don't watch crap), but I disapprove of discrimination. There's no contradiction there simply because the two forms of the word have taken on quite different shades of meaning in their common usage. > Was Xena's yelling at bystanders less emotional than yelling at Gabs to > "wake up"? Was it the crying that made her appear more emotional? What > about whacking Gabs on the chest? Would that've been emotional without the > yelling and/or crying? Does yelling, crying *and* whacking Gabs > simultaneously not compute? I'm trying to understand these "shades" of > meaning, because they in fact make a huge difference in assessments of > Xena's behavior. > > -- Ife No you're hairsplitting. In deciding whether it was 'emotional' I take into account the whole performance. It strikes me as very emotional and out of character for Xena. IMO. cr ... showing an emotion - mild exasperation ;) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:35:59 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH On Friday 22 August 2003 23:33, sgitzou@periaktoi.gr wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 8:05 AM > Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH > > > Um, I think Sophia may have been saying that we *all* see things that may > > not > > > be there, no matter how much to heart we take the show. > > > > -- Ife > > No no I didn't mean that! > Sophia Don't let it bother you, lfe keeps telling me what *I* mean too and getting it totally wrong ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:29:55 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH On Saturday 23 August 2003 10:33, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Oh, agreed. That was really cool at the end of Sin Trade, which I still > rate as the best music score of the whole series. And using it in PoV > which was really a very average episode, devalued ST slightly in > retrospect. > > IMO. >> > > Yes, that whole bit -- from the sort of surreal "waking the Amazons" part > to the end where she rides of, triumphant -- gives me goosebumps whenever I > play that CD. Yes, and I think part of the appreciation, also, is that they *worked* to 'justify' that music. In other words, it was the payoff for two massive episodes. Playing it at the end of an ordinary ho-hum ep, just seems to undercut it. Like a big building on flimsy foundations. > Some of the music from "Ides" was special to me as well. I > agree, I kind of felt like they were devaluing that -- cheating by using > such music to give S6 more "feeling" than some scenes deserved. I've > always wondered if someone. As much as I loved LoDuca, I almost wished for > no music sometimes, rather than music which wasn't as "in synch" as I was > accustomed to. LOL! Boy, were we spoiled -- grousing when the > award-winning music didn't meet the high starndards that had been set. Or, when the episode didn't measure up to the music? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 02:23:43 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Zoe Bell pics at 3rd Annual World Stunt Awards In a message dated 8/23/2003 12:42:58 AM Central Daylight Time, katsunori@excite.com writes: > She really look a like LL on the pics that is different from convention > pics Wow! She sure does! Except she doesn't need any arm guards to make her muscles look bigger. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:26:51 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH On Saturday 23 August 2003 18:17, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > I absolutely agree with your view of Xena, even if we disagree about how > that got portrayed on "Doctor." While Xena is definately my girl and it > took awhile for Gabs to grow on me, I have a lot of respect for her. I do > not at all see her as the bumbling idiot whom Xena could've done quite well > without. I do not like hearing her described as a hapless victim of TPTB > or Xena, as opposed to a very strong-willed, evolving young woman who made > mistakes like everyone else. I believe she was integral to the "heart" of > the show and to bringing out Xena's humanity. I appreciate that ROC was up > to the task of raising the character above "sidekick," occasional plot > device and the amorphous conceptions of various writers. IOW, yes, I do > give a hoot about her, if only because I don't think Xena would be dumb > enough to lug dead weight around. > > -- Ife Then why does she *behave* like dead weight? Yeah maybe she had qualities that don't appear on screen, but that's asking us to assume an awful lot, I think. Yes, I don't think Xena would be dumb enough to lug dead weight around. Therefore, no, I can't explain why she lugs early Gabs around. ;) I just wish the writers had written Gabs a bit smarter. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:48:39 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH *My, my*, _what_ have I started....?!? ;=) I'll try to answer everyone's points in one *loooong* post. ;=) On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:33:47 EDT, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >Was Xena's yelling at bystanders less emotional than yelling at Gabs to >"wake up"? - --No. They were equally "emotional". ;P (To use Thel's terms, "sentimental" and it showed "emotionalism". ;) ) > Was it the crying that made her appear more emotional? - --Not the crying per se, but the *way* (*blubbering* like a child) she cried that seemed "inappropriate" to me. IMO, the X we knew up to then would not have cried in that manner. Another point I forgot to make is that when someone dies or leaves you, you are *angry* like *h*ll*. Where was X's anger?? She was angry at others, but not at G. ;P She showed *desperation* (a victim-like emotion, IMO) that G might die, but no anger that that might happen. >What about whacking Gabs on the chest? Would that've been emotional >without the yelling and/or crying? Does yelling, crying *and* whacking >Gabs simultaneously not compute? - --Whacking G on the chest could've been done in another way. Perhaps experimentally shaking first, then angrily pumping would've been "X-like" to me. Whacking or pumping without the yelling or crying would've been great. IMO, that would've been "putting a lid on it" ala "X-style". So yes, yelling, crying, and whacking don't compute for me. On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 23:12:14 -0400, "mirrordrum" wrote: >well here we part ways. i have no problem with things that appeal to my >emotions. xena did that constantly. where i'm balking is at those times >where either we or the actors, or both, were being pushed toward emotions >that were excessive, inappropriate, or over or poorly done. in the case >of , as i say, review shows me that i let myself be strongly >prejudiced by a facial expression i equate with whining which is not >something i associate with lucy, xena or for that matter gab or renee. > > i think, however, that the show slipped into sentimentality sometimes >and in this scene, a couple of expressions crossed over into that area >for me. - --Yup, I agree with md. That whining expression, but as well as all the histrionics together did not compute for me to be a typical or "true" X reaction, regardless of the severity of the situation. It was too "sentimental". On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:15:33 -0500, S. Wilson wrote: >I didn't see any of that as "girly-girl." I know plenty of women who >don't blubber over things, myself included. But speaking as one who *has* >freaked out when faced with the death of a loved one, I went from >take-no-prisoners tough girl to panicked, angry and inconsolable in a >nanosecond. Tears aren't sign of weakness when it hurts. - --I have nothing against tears per se. It's what *sort *of tears, with what *sort* of reaction that makes it "strong" or "weak" or "blubbering" or "girly-girl". For instance, in Debt II where G is whacking X in the face to give Ming Tien a promise, X showed me "strong" tears. Those were great. I felt every drip then. But in ITADITH, those weepy-eyed tears IMO were self-indulgent as Thel pointed out, reflecting more concern for X herself than G ("Don't leave _me_, don't you leave _me_"). And I must say, I've myself cried inconsolable tears over the break-up of relationships (never experienced a death yet), but not to my knowledge the kind of desperate tears X cried for G. On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:09:10 -0400, "mirrordrum" wrote: >anyway, my partner sees a lot of codes. she says she's seen medical >professionals with lots of experience, doctors and nurses who've been >around death and dying for years, who may suddenly lose all judgment >after a series of crises, particularly if they've had a number of deaths >or near-deaths in a short span of time. she said she's seen people who >otherwise kno when to stop simply lose it and keep on trying to >resuscitate when it's way past time to stop. - --I can see that, and I can see X trying long past the time to stop, but I don't see her wailing and screaming and blubbering all at the same time. It's just not X as we've seen her up to this point. After this point, perhaps, but not up to this point. >the other, and to me more helpful, comment was that they had to have xena >lose it totally or she would never have done the chest pounding and would >ergo never have discovered/invented resuscitation. for some reason, i'd >never thought of that. - --Well, of course, but that's probbably also why it seemed contrived to me. That the pounding and screaming and yelling were only so TPTB could show that X invented CPR....;P I think my reaction at that time was "Cheap trick, that". ;P On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:39:53 EDT, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >I disagree that we hadn't seen anything to support what we saw. There's >plenty to suggest that Gabs was a light-hearted, adventurous, brave, >supportive person to share a campfire and travel with. - --And how do those above qualities show that she's someone to die for or blubber desperately for? Those characteristics could also describe a pet dog (which IMO, G pretty much was in S1, no offense to G-fans intended, just a "take" on things). > She was Xena's *friend,* which we saw from Xena's reaction to Marcus' >death was as important to Xena as any other aspect of the relationship. - --I'm glad you brought that up, because I was going to point to that relationship, which X said was a "true love" relationship, as an example of just how stoic X could be. When Marcus got hit by the arrow in Path Not Taken, did X blubber, did she try to revive?? No, she just quietly told him he didn't have to try to take the arrow, she could've fixed things. In Mortal Beloved, she was the one who sent Marcus back to Hades with a swift stab of her knife in his chest. Did she blubber incessantly then?? Did she pound chests or scream at Hades?? Nope. But you could see she was *deeply* affected and could barely walk away in one piece. _That's_ the sort of reaction I was basing my evaluation of the CPR scene on. >> --_That_ was the bit that *really* made me *wince*. ;P That plaintive >> "Don't leave me, don't leave me" was *so weak*, a warrior like X with >> *lotsa* experience with death (even of her close brother Lyceus) >>wouldn't have been reduced to a *blubbering idiot*, IMO. ;P>> > >Ah, then you're talking about what you wanted to see, rather than how >real-life people who deal with death all the time have sometimes reacted? - --Not at all. I'm talking about what we've seen so far, and how X's character has been presented to us so far. She doesn't back down from things, and she's rarely cornered. When she is cornered, she doesn't panic. A person like that doesn't wail and pound chests desperately. She takes action. And this is not necessarily "reality" TV. Just because "real" people react this way doesn't mean a fictional character should. However, as I mentioned above, I'm a "real" person and I haven't reacted this way, if you insist on a RL example..... >Um, how does that imply she's a victim? Because this shows she needs >Gabrielle? That would be true no matter what she said. She needs >Gabrielle to make the decision to keep fighting or not die, just as she >needs Gabrielle not to leave her. You're saying death makes the >survivors victims because they couldn't stop it? - --No, I'm saying X is *playing* the victim by either not dealing with G's supposed death or by not implacably trying other techniques to revive her. What will crying and wailing do?? There's no action in that; _that's_ playing the victim, to me. >So if Herc had done that with Iolus, would you have felt the same? Oh, >right, Herc wouldn't've done that, eh? Anyway, I saw a strong *person* >not waiting around for anybody (including Gabs) or accepting defeat, but >taking matters into her own hands to the extent she could. - --If H had done the same with I, I would've had the same reaction, because H, like X, is a hero, and is not supposed to be like the rest of us. ;P And "to the extent she could" is not good enough for X; she can do almost anything, right?!? Even laugh in the face of death. So why didn't she do it this time?? On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:15:48 -0400, "Cheryl Ande" wrote: >Actually Gabby does have this big of a hold on Xena. Xena said in The >Ties That Bind something to the effect that the families we make can be >more important than does of blood. Then she says our frindship binds us >closer than blood ever could. In Prodigal Xena is offended that >Gabrielle sees the need for her blood family. The relatioship is growing >and now it is fully revealed how deep it is. The audience is now being >shown how important that relationship is. - --My interpretation of these scenes is different. Just because X&G are "closer than blood" doesn't mean we've seen what that equates to IRL for X. I've felt that way before about my best friends, but for me I'm not that close to my family anyway, so that's not saying much. ;P When X is offended G has to return to Potaidea to "work out" her "issues", that may only be because G's "issue" had to do with fighting and being on the road in danger, something X knew far more about than G's family. I'm sure X also would miss G's companionship, but IMO that only goes back to that "pet dog" syndrome I mentioned earlier. ;) >This is your expectation of the characters and actually is a very >sterotypical view of them. Gabrielle is the young bard and therefore is >suppose to the weepy one and Xena is the warrior so she must always be in >control - --Well, yes. Isn't that the way they were first conceived? And what attracted us to them in the first place? And isn't this the 1st Season we're talking about?? If TPTB want us to see the characters differently, then they have to give us *evidence* that this change is taking place. And they have to be *convincing* about it, too, not just suddenly *spring* it on us, as I feel they did in ITADITH. IMO, ITADITH is probably a better S2 closer than a S1 closer, but I probably wouldn't've liked it any better then, either. ;P Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:02:36 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: Lurker Surprises ;) Just thought I'd mention that this list is such a *great* group of folks; I sometimes get unexpected surprises from it, like lurker JimT from VA suddenly dropping by my office today out of the blue, while he was taking his daughter to college at UHawai'i where I work. ;=) Kinda made my day, which was stress-fraught because classes begin next Mon. ;=/ It was *great* to take an unexpected break from paperwork and students to talk "X" for a while.....;=) *Thanks*, Jim!! ;=) (I also met Katsu on this list in a similar way.....;) ) Just FYI, ;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:50:36 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH On Saturday 23 August 2003 19:48, Jackie M. Young wrote: (huge snippage) > > She was Xena's *friend,* which we saw from Xena's reaction to Marcus' > >death was as important to Xena as any other aspect of the relationship. > > --I'm glad you brought that up, because I was going to point to that > relationship, which X said was a "true love" relationship, as an example > of just how stoic X could be. When Marcus got hit by the arrow in Path > Not Taken, did X blubber, did she try to revive?? No, she just quietly > told him he didn't have to try to take the arrow, she could've fixed > things. > > In Mortal Beloved, she was the one who sent Marcus back to Hades with a > swift stab of her knife in his chest. Did she blubber incessantly then?? > Did she pound chests or scream at Hades?? Nope. But you could see she > was *deeply* affected and could barely walk away in one piece. Oh, nicely spotted, Jackie. Why don't I think of these things? ;) In fact your whole post (which I've reluctantly snipped for bandwidth) is excellent. From _my_ point of view, of course. :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:04:10 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH In a message dated 8/23/2003 2:49:40 AM Central Daylight Time, jyoung@lava.net writes: > Another point I forgot to make is that when someone dies or leaves you, > you are *angry* like *h*ll*. Where was X's anger?? She was angry at > others, but not at G. ;P She showed *desperation* (a victim-like emotion, > IMO) that G might die, but no anger that that might happen.>> Hmmm, I'll have to disagree with you on that one. I definitely felt anger in her desperation to pound life into G. She'd already said, "It's up to Gabrielle now," which meant to me that G's injury was not in itself fatal, but depended on G's will to survive. That told me she felt G had some respponsibility for trying harder. She yelled something like, "You've never run away from a fight in your life!" In fact, anger at G was as much a part of that scene as anything -- anger that G would give up (be a coward), anger that G might leave her, anger that G didn't seem to be responding to X's unprecedented (as far as we knew) all-out pouring of mind, heart and soul into getting G to come back. What I always liked was that, despite her godlike powers, Xena knew she wasn't a god. She didn't act like she "owned" people's lives (at least after her reformation.) She respected G's will, even as she feared what might happen to G and (often pateronizingly) tried to protect her. She had a lot of faith in G's strength and reverence for life, which she expected G to "live" up to in that critical test. Some may see Xena's pleading as "weak," as needing G too much. I saw it as a rational recognition that she could not win this battle alone, that G's life was her own to determine. I saw her demanding that G be the courageous fighter she'd come to see G as, urging her to embrace life as G encouraged others to do, pleading with G not to deprive her of G's presence, support and ideals. We were used to seeing people expect the impossible from Xena. What that scene showed me was that Xena expected uncommon determination and strength from Gabrielle -- egual in its way to Xena's. In retrospect, I realize it was a turning point for me, as someone who basically tolerated G up to that point and didn't see her as a worthy companion (as I thought M'Lila might've been). I began to see Gabrielle as a true partner because of the enormous belief Xena showed in Gabrielle's ability to overcome even death. After G comes back, Xena says something like, "You did it." She's proud as well as grateful, clearly genuine in giving Gabrielle -- not herself or some god -- credit for the extraordinary effort it took to come back. I'm giving up on saying how "appropriate" the acting was. I just don't believe I would've gotten all that from Xena's usual "Well, you have to expect death happens" stoicism. I'm not sure I would've been forced to acknowledge G's true courage. Yes, I'd seen her stand up to slavers, Xena's kin, Titans, etc. I'd seen her watch people die and try to save them. I'd grudgingly called her "spunky," "fiesty," etc. -- as cr might say, "shades of meaning" that connoted youthful bravado without the test of experience. In "Doctor," I accepted the full-out courage that underlay her sometimes foolhardy risks. I understood why Xena accepted and admired the behavior that had irritated (and continued to irritate) me in Gabrielle. If Xena had "saved" Gabrielle like any other patient, I don't think I would've given G the same amount of respect I did at watching Xena's desperate mixture of anger, love, fear, confidence, etc. I guess I'm saying the ultimate effect on me was to make me pay more attention to Gabrielle. I didn't see that as "diminishing" Xena in the least, so much as showing the strength she drew from having a partner she saw as her equal. I thought the timing was good, because it took me into the second season with a feeling of evolution and greater expectations from Gabrielle. My apologies for snipping the rest of our discussion about the "blubbering," but we'll probably never agree on that. As I was writing this, I realized the Gabrielle aspect that impressed me about the scene, so I'll leave it with that. :-) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:04:13 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH In a message dated 8/23/2003 1:23:25 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > On Saturday 23 August 2003 10:33, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 8/22/03 5:05:07 AM Central Daylight Time, > >cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > > > >md said: > ><<>i think it's both fun and important to clarify these things b/c there > >is a > > > > >tendency to describe as acceptable in xena emotions and their outcomes > > >stereotypically assigned to men (violence, anger, hatred, direct > > >revenge). > > > > Now we're running into shades of meaning - those emotions aren't the ones > > usually associated with the term 'emotional'. They have their own terms > >of opprobium. > > > > > >Aha! I knew you wouldn't consider anger a "true" emotion. I kept trying > >to figure out how Xena could ever be described as "not emotional." (I'm > >not saying you said that, tho I think you ideas about "emotionalism" > >support such a view.) It's for the same reason that men can storm up and > >down a hallway and not be considered "emotional." If it involves yelling, > >whacking someone, plotting revenge, etc., it's more "masculine" and > >therefore not an emotion! It's something else with a "shade of meaning" > >that's somehow less "weak" or ineffective -- not because that's necessarily > >true, but because if men do it, it *must* be less emotional -- "weak" or > >ineffective. > > No no no no no no no no no! > > Anger is an emotion. One amongst many. I wouldn't care to define what is > > a 'true' emotion and what isn't but anger certainly is one of the primary > ones. > > Stop getting hung up on your doctrinaire feminist viewpoint. Or at least, > don't project its assumptions onto me. :) > > 'Emotional' in its common usage is taken to refer to certain particular > emotions - usually a tendency to be easily upset. It is not commonly > assumed to refer to all emotions equally. Nope, not a "doctrinaire feminist." I'm only going on what I thought you suggested, which seemed to equate crying with being "emotional," but not anger. I also got the impression you believe "emotional" is somehow less preferable than "restrained," and that "emotional" somehow connotes more "weakness" than "restraint" does. I thought this was your opinion, regardless of dictionary definitions. I do respect your opinion, even if I disagree with it. What's "commonly assumed" is a whole different argument that I don't care to get into at this point. Am I wrong about the impressions I got about your views about "emotional" in regards to anger, restraint and weakness? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:04:06 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH Ife in her infinite wisdom (totally wasted in this case) said: > >>She was Xena's *friend,* which we saw from Xena's reaction to Marcus' > >>death was as important to Xena as any other aspect of the relationship. To which the stubborn Jackie responded: > >--I'm glad you brought that up, because I was going to point to that > >relationship, which X said was a "true love" relationship, as an example > >of just how stoic X could be. When Marcus got hit by the arrow in Path > >Not Taken, did X blubber, did she try to revive?? No, she just quietly > >told him he didn't have to try to take the arrow, she could've fixed > >things. > > > >In Mortal Beloved, she was the one who sent Marcus back to Hades with a > >swift stab of her knife in his chest. Did she blubber incessantly then?? > >Did she pound chests or scream at Hades?? Nope. But you could see she > >was *deeply* affected and could barely walk away in one piece. >> And the equally stubborn cr added: << > Oh, nicely spotted, Jackie. Why don't I think of these things? ;) > > In fact your whole post (which I've reluctantly snipped for bandwidth) is > excellent. From _my_ point of view, of course. :) > Fine. All I can say is, I'm certainly glad I got to see LL/Xena portray a wider range of grief than two tear drops and quivering pressed lips, accompanied by a slightly shuddering deep sigh, and sometimes followed by the poignantly sung, "Goodbye, my friend" dirge. Humph! (By the way, you forgot the end of MI, which was another version of this, which I agree was as powerful as the others under the circumstances, but wouldn't necessarily expect or want to see for every situation over the course of six years. Na na na na na.) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:04:07 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Lurker Surprises ;) In a message dated 8/23/2003 3:03:37 AM Central Daylight Time, jyoung@lava.net writes: > Just thought I'd mention that this list is such a *great* group of folks; > I sometimes get unexpected surprises from it, like lurker JimT from VA > suddenly dropping by my office today out of the blue, while he was taking > his daughter to college at UHawai'i where I work. ;=) Kinda made my day, > which was stress-fraught because classes begin next Mon. ;=/ > Wow. I had a somewhat similar experience last night. I went to an after-work dinner and gave a woman I'd just met a ride home because she happened to live a few blocks from me. Turned out she's a Xena fan still on a couple of Merpup lists. (She's the one who told me she didn't get any extras on the S2 DVDs she ordered from the catalog.) You should've seen us -- squealing like two kids who discovered they'd wandered into Disneyland. Just when you think it's safe to go in the water and not bump into anymore XWP fans ..... Ain't it grand? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #243 **************************************