From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #242 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, August 23 2003 Volume 03 : Number 242 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [] [chakram-refugees] Anna Paquin in Hercules? [Xwpacolyte@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Anna Paquin in Hercules? [Cousin Liz ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH ["mirrordrum" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 02:34:04 +0300 From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH Well the wrong maybe is mine. I agree too with Sue I think she understood me. Maybe I didn' t understand Ife's answer and I'm really sorry. Maybe the frase "things that may not be there" confused me. I wished to say that we all see the things there but we give different meaning or we don't agree with them. I think I made things more confused. I'm really sorry, Ife (Oh that silence of mine, where are you?? My friends here really need you!) Sophia - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 1:33 AM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH > In a message dated 8/22/03 6:27:47 AM Central Daylight Time, > sgitzou@periaktoi.gr writes: > > << Um, I think Sophia may have been saying that we *all* see things that may > not > > be there, no matter how much to heart we take the show. > > > > -- Ife > > > > No no I didn't mean that! >> > > LOL! Well, that's too bad, because Sue and I have already agreed on what you > meant and also agree with what we thought you said. You're quite brilliant, > if I must say so myself. > > Seriously, though, you expressed your point very well. We realize you may > have had a different intent/meaning, but we used it to jump off on our points. > If we went waaaaay off what you were getting at, please jump in again. > > -- Ife > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:19:18 EDT From: Xwpacolyte@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Anna Paquin in Hercules? This from the August 3, 2003 Parade Magazine article on Anna Paquin: "Anna--the daughter of teachers--was born in Canada, but the family moved to New Zealand when she was 4. In 1991, director Jane Campion cast Paquin as the young girl in The Piano opposite Holly Hunter, who won the Oscar for Best Actress. But it was Anna who charmed Hollywood with her genuine surprise and excitement at being named Best Supporting Actress--a moment some Oscar mavens consider the best acceptance speech ever." The article mentions Paquin's role in X-Men and X2, and among her television credits is listed "Hercules, 1998." Would that be our Hercules? Which ep? Anybody? XWPacolyte Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:37:39 -0400 From: Cousin Liz Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Anna Paquin in Hercules? Xwpacolyte@aol.com wrote: > The article mentions Paquin's role in X-Men and X2, and among her television > credits is listed "Hercules, 1998." Would that be our Hercules? Which ep? > Anybody? Possibly our Hercules, but don't know which ep: http://www.whoosh.org/xmr/issues/xmr021b.txt She's not listed in the cast listing: http://www.whoosh.org/epguide/misc/cast.html - -- Cousin Liz eas01@fast.net Soulmates Xena Dinosaur Bards http://cousinliz.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:34:46 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] re: Paquin & Hercules /The article mentions Paquin's role in X-Men and X2, and among her television /credits is listed "Hercules, 1998." Would that be our Hercules? Which ep? According to her page in Internet Movie Database, Anna Paquin did voice work in the animated TV series Hercules, from Disney. This was an outgrowth of the Disney Hercules animated feature film. They had many well-known stars as voices, probably in non-recurring parts. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:02:52 -0700 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] re: Paquin & Hercules >According to her page in Internet Movie Database, Anna Paquin did voice >work in the animated TV series Hercules, from Disney. This was an >outgrowth >of the Disney Hercules animated feature film. They had many well-known >stars as voices, probably in non-recurring parts. The "Zero to Hero" series had numerous well known guests. James Woods, Drew Barrymore, Tia Carrere, Nancy Cartwright, Claire Danes, Keith David, Michael Dorn, Danny DeVito, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Kathie Lee Gifford, Linda Hamilton, Katie Holmes, David Hyde Pierce, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Melissa Joan Hart, Lisa Kudrow, Jane Leeves, Heather Locklear, Courtney Love, Natalie Portman, William Shatner, Reese Witherspoon and yes indeed, Anna Paquin who played Bia. Not to mention the tons of people who do voices on just about any cartoon you can name, but you don't know them ny face or name, just voice. It's a big thing with well known actors lately to pop up all over the place with cartoons. Anyone watch "Gargolyes"? Jeesh, that show had ELEVEN Star Trek actors in the series, most in regular, if not LEAD roles! I've heard Linda Hamilton in two eps of "Buzz Lightyear." Gellar has also done "King of the HIll" and Kudrow was on "Simpsons" as well as David Hyde Pierce. So, next time the kiddies are watching toons, keep an ear open. You'll be surprised who you'll hear. ;) BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:28:20 -0500 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH Sorry, but, are you all referring to me? Sue? Just wasn't sure. I'm so used to signing "S." on everything - email, letters, notes, documents, whatever, that I think people don't ever get to know my name is actually Stephanie. lol But anyway, if you weren't talking about me, please disregard and let me go stick my head in the sand. :> S.teph At 02:34 AM 8/23/2003 +0300, sgitzou@periaktoi.gr wrote: >Well the wrong maybe is mine. I agree too with Sue I think she understood >me. Maybe I didn' t understand Ife's answer and I'm really sorry. Maybe the >frase "things that may not be there" confused me. I wished to say that we >all see the things there but we give different meaning or we don't agree >with them. >I think I made things more confused. I'm really sorry, Ife >(Oh that silence of mine, where are you?? My friends here really need you!) >Sophia ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 23:12:14 -0400 From: "mirrordrum" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH - ---- Original Message ----- From: "cr" To: "mirrordrum" ; ; Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH > On Friday 22 August 2003 13:54, mirrordrum wrote: > > > > Yes, I find it quite in character that Xena would go off > > > 3000 miles to try to rescue Gabs. Maybe even go slightly off her head > > > in the process. > > > > slightly? SLIGHTLY? if that's > > slightly, m'dear, what would completely look like? ;) > > May I just put it this way - Xena was still very controlled in Sin Trade. > There was a lot of method in her madness. She never looked like breaking > down and just losing it. of course you can put it that way. and yeah, now you mention it, i said to myself, i said, xena looks so very con*troll*ed there with the bloody antlers on her head and that grief spread all over her face--actually a very similar expression to the one she uses in . i was thinking specifically of these scenes, just for instance (thanks to mike quick for the incredible caps): http://www.btinternet.com/~michael.quick/episodes/aitst/pages/aitst_5_mq_133sd.htm http://www.btinternet.com/~michael.quick/episodes/aitst/pages/aitst_5_mq_139sd.htm i watch those and that's what i say. yuppers, this is one controlled woman. . oh thelo. > > > > I just don't see her breaking down and losing it like she did > > > in ITADITH. well i do see her breaking down and losing it because that makes her human and to me, her violence is an integral part of both her passion and her "breakdown" prior to and the beginning of the show. violence *is* a breakdown just as terrible grief is. both are part of the range of human experience. but somehow it all made more sense to me in and i found it marvelous. i tell you what i think it is for me. i see xena as a very passionate woman and a very strongly emotional one. i realize i'm just very demanding and picky about the way that's enacted. i'm also particular about the way gabrielle is handled. is there anybody besides me on this list who gives a hoot about gab, btw? i fell like i'm on the xena version of flawless. *sigh* xena's passion is tempered over time with hard-won experience and an increasing sense of responsibility. i think it's the depth of her passion and her emotions that not only gets her in trouble but that also makes her a marvelous and to me, beloved, character. her passions include lust, grief, anger, love, remorse, and pride tempered with dignity. she is capable of profound loyalty and consequently a profound sense of betrayal and desire for vengeance. gab is a good foil for her precisely b/c, although she's not the quick thinker xena is, she is somewhat cerebral and has a capacity for detachment. she has a much simpler heart and a much more active head. also spunk. but she's just not as complex. i'm off the point. scuse it. back on the point. i went back and watched the scene again and actually, there're really only two parts of the resuscitation i don't like, maybe 3. there's a particular expression of lucy's that doesn't work for me. she looks like a little girl who's about to bawl. i find crying perfectly acceptable and i find strong emotion perfectly acceptable. it's just that one expression and the way she does a kind of helplessness. i like xena's anger, i'm okay with the "don't leave me," and i'm perfectly okay with her persistence. turns out it's maybe 4 or 5 seconds in the entire scene. well. i feel rather, well, tacky even talking about it because i have so much respect for what they did. . .i just want to make clear that i have that respect and i know i couldn't do *any* of it. > > > of course, all this is *so* post-mortem but fun nonetheless. is there any > > of it you *would* buy? since you don't like gab anyway, let's say just for > > the sake of argument, it were m'lila. > > Good analogy. Okay, I'll go on about that. Even if it were M'Lila, I > don't see Xena breaking down like she did in ITADITH. okay, so it isn't just that it was gabrielle (i never do trust your responses about gab or renee b/c you specifically dislike them). it was xena's response, period. > > > or better yet, let's consider her > > response to the loss of m'lila, realizing that this antedated her > > relationship with gab by eversomuch. has this been discussed and i missed > > it? if so, sorry and you can just tell me it's been dealt with. > > No, I don't think it has. Xena, as we saw, didn't break down. It > affected her deeply, emotionally, but she didn't lose control. of course she lost control. you don't think killing someone with that savage, vengeful glee signifies a loss of control? i don't say i can't understand it, i just say that in its way, it isn't really different from the loss of control--or extreme of emotion--in . it's a different combination of emotions and so the behavioral expression is different but imo both involve a loss of emotional control if by control we agree to mean regulation or restraint (i went to oxford just to see if those were indeed appropriate). > now what do you consider "emotionalism?" > > Umm, I'd draw a big distinction between 'emotion' and 'emotionalism', which > is (according to my dictionary) 'an appeal to the emotions' or 'a tendency to > be readily affected by emotions'. yes, you're right there and i was wrong. oxford says it's "a tendency to give in weakly to emotion" and dictionary.com gives it 3 definitions, one of which equates it with emotion (which is what i was doing) but there's a general sense that it's an over-response or a tendency to be emotional all the time or excessively; also perhaps an imputation of sentimentality. i think i was using it incorrectly as a synonym for emotion. >I don't think I'd call Xena guilty of > either of those, though the writers of XWP were on occasion. When Dickens > did it it was called 'tear-jerking'. I guess ITADITH strikes me that way. well here we part ways. i have no problem with things that appeal to my emotions. xena did that constantly. where i'm balking is at those times where either we or the actors, or both, were being pushed toward emotions that were excessive, inappropriate, or over or poorly done. in the case of , as i say, review shows me that i let myself be strongly prejudiced by a facial expression i equate with whining which is not something i associate with lucy, xena or for that matter gab or renee. they couldn't have done what they did, either the characters or the actors, if they were whiners and given to sentimentality. i think, however, that the show slipped into sentimentality sometimes and in this scene, a couple of expressions crossed over into that area for me. > > > i think it's both fun and important to clarify these things b/c there is a > > tendency to describe as acceptable in xena emotions and their outcomes > > stereotypically assigned to men (violence, anger, hatred, direct revenge). > > Now we're running into shades of meaning - those emotions aren't the ones > usually associated with the term 'emotional'. They have their own terms of > opprobium. this must be a kiwi thing. or maybe it's a difference in training or something. in my book, and education, emotions are feelings and feelings basically cover the range of internal responses from extreme aversion to extreme attraction. to me, emotions are the parts of internal experience that lead us to act or contemplate acting. it's all very tricky to try to separate cognition (thought), physiology, learning, behavior and emotion. libraries are full of material on this. but generally speaking, feelings are states of arousal (that's the physiology part) that we interpret (that's the cognitive part) and on which we act (the behavioral part) in certain ways under certain circumstances (the learning part). aversion (fear or withdrawal) and attraction (pleasure), that is the tendency to move toward or away from something, are basic and show up very early in infancy. then you get the whole range of emotions that spin out from those: terror, anger, rage, hatred, jealousy, desire, love, sentiment, compassion etc. etc. > > > we are much more tolerant of xena's (yawn) > > dark, self-sufficient side than of her more vulnerable side. > > Not so much that, as the fact that Xena wouldn't let her vulnerable side > *show*. I think that's the key. When (like LL) you can make one word, or > one look, speak volumes, why make a speech? you're asking that of the wrong person. and anyway, that's not the issue. or. . .well, maybe it is. you're talking about the "less is more," yes? and i agree generally but what's of interest is that we simply dote on the xena who is absolutely over the top in terms of her violence. you don't complain about xena's wild style or her vocalizations during battle (definitely not a less is more style of fighting), her rage at gabrielle in or her treatment of gab in . i feel sure you think that justified . i'd say dragging people about behind a horse is way beyond a word or look and definitely qualifies as a loss of control. i really don't think there's any excuse for that kind of behavior, period. i may have compassion for it because it is basically an insane and uncontrolled response to grief. of course to really fit that, it should have happened immediately and not in the next episode. that's never worked for me but it isn't the acting, it's the entire set of assumptions and i know we'll never agree so i won't go any farther with it. in terms of this general ramble, we've got two things going here. one is whether or not we liked the way a specific scene was done (we don't) and the other is about the meaning of emotion and of control. we disagree about that, er, those. > > > nope, that's > > not ture. many people like(d) that side of her and i did sometimes. it > > depended on how it was enacted. about did me in for example. > > Not sure quite how you mean there? uh, xena's vulnerable side. the tears in when gab wallops her (such a dumb scene and so well done by lucy) and the "scratch my nose" scene--well i liked it. both, and especially the slap scene were beautifully understated. imo. and i came as near to crying in that ep as in any, i think, except . i found that a xena being vulnerable scene. the scene in under the waterfall was also a xena being vulnerable scene and i didn't like it. i didn't like the way it was directed, i thought it was contrived, and i thought lucy was unable to pull it off convincingly and i don't blame her! > > what i want to know is first of all, how do you define (acceptable) > > emotionalism, specifically for xena. > > 'Acceptable' emtionalISM - zero. Acceptable emotion - a wide range. But > it's how she expressed it that counts. I could see the emotion at the end > of Orphan of War, but that seemed in character. The OTT breakdown in > ITADITH seems both out of character and not what I want to see in Xena anyway. okay. sentimentality, not so much. emotions--and here i think you use it in it's broader sense--from rage and hatred to profound love and compassion. or whatever. yep. i guess i'm with you pretty much. i realize i could've skipped to this bit and not written all the stuff above but why cut to the chase when you can whitter on endlessly? that's what the xenaverse is for. > > > second, what do you think xena would > > have done and should have done had the person who coded in been > > m'lila whom you like rather than gab whom you don't? would it have made any > > difference to you? do you feel that her violent response to m'lila's death > > based on significantly less relationship time than xena's time with gab was > > appropriate? if so, what's the difference? btw, i ask that of anyone myself > > included. > > I think Xena would have controlled herself either way. She may well have > been heartbroken, but I can't see her 'losing it' in such a futile fashion as > in ITADITH. (And before someone points out that Xena invented CPR, that > was pure fluke, not anything she planned). well, again we'd have to go back to what it means to be in control and that's pretty well been hashed. and about the CPR, as i posted a bit earlier b/c my partner pointed it out, the emotion was essential to the invention of CPR. if she hadn't been fraught she'd not have done all that blowing and then pounded on gab's chest and no CPR. > Being true to the character (or 'in > character') - yes, that's part of it. And part of it is in the writing, in > setting up a situation where the emotion comes from the situation itself, or > the dialogue, so that the audience feels it without the actor necessarily > having to be emotionAL. Much more subtle and effective, IMO. just as a final comment, i think tptb generally did much better with the negative emotions than the positive ones except for their use of humor which i thought was great and which was used to convey both negatives and positives and i'm knackered. cheers all, md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #242 **************************************