From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #238 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, August 21 2003 Volume 03 : Number 238 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH ["mirrordrum" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] A Day In The Life ["H.J.J. Hewitt" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH ["mirrordrum" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] A Day In The Life [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] A Day In The Life [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH [cr ] Re: OT: Waves ( wasRe: [chakram-refugees] Re: Adventures in the Sin Trade) [cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH > In a message dated 8/20/03 3:08:07 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz > writes: > > > On Wednesday 20 August 2003 14:47, mirrordrum wrote: > > i've been following this thread off and on with interest and keep thinking > > about posting and then not. but i guess maybe i will. > > Welcome back from lurkland, md! Nice to see you! >> thanks--and hi thelo i'm sort of addressing both posts in one. i hope. > > Ditto! Except, I can't seem to find your original post. Hopefully cr copied > most of it in his response. enough, certainly. it wasn't a very good post. i reread it and realized i used the word "just" about 20 times. i was a bit. . .knackered. > > > i feel a bit politically incorrect when i say that i've never particularly > > liked the resuscitation scene and, much as i dote on lucy's hands > Hee hee. Politically incorrect. Welcome to the doghouse. ;)>> > > I really, really, really hate that term "politically incorrect." i guess the tongue lodged firmly in my cheek didn't come through the ether. meant to convey an awareness that there are those amongst us who sometimes take an almost political stance (broadly speaking) about views of actors in xwp and get miffed if one says the "wrong" things about, variously, xena, gab, lucy, ren, joxer, ted or the relationship between xena and ares. That said, > I've seen as many people who don't like that scene as who do. ah, well, you see? what do i know. :) What interests > me is the distinction between how we thought Xena should react and Lucy's > portrayal of it. In fact, the "triteness" of Xena's actions made her seem more > "human," because she had lost "control" to the point of doing what people > sometimes instinctively do in situations like that. I guess it's like a way of > keeping in "contact" with the person. I've been in situations like that, where it > didn't seem to make "sense," but when you're desparate, you do anything, > everything you can. yes, i've been in such situations myself. i think the thing about this is that the xena we're presented with in the series (and i think some amongst us felt this about OAAA) is not one who loses control in that way. . .at least not until gab comes along. i found her reaction in perfectly in character. she would go nuts in just that way: with intensity, direction, with a vengeance. but so early on, i'm not comfortable with it nor with the acting. but as i said in the original post, i don't really care. i like it that lucy felt good about it, i had the sense that she was giving it everything she had, and i love the story about ren helping her get through that last take. lucy's very generous in that way and i suspect it's probably true. i also can be, and am, extremely critical because i love the show. if that makes any sense. i have expectations and one of them is that xena would be more, um, more controlled. otoh, there's that dictum in medicine and other professions that one *never* treats someone one knows, especially someone one cares about emotionally b/c one can't respond "objectively". i'm not saying this didn't show a side of her that fascinates me. i don't see it as wimpy, just out of character. i think i would expect xena to demonstrate her concern by trying hard but with a singleness of purpose. i would expect her to say to marmax "what would you know. . .you've killed so many" in a hard, tight voice not a voice verging on hysteria. that's it, it's the approximation to hysteria that unsettles me. xena has been through too much to lose it like that. or maybe she's been through so much that she's at the point where she *is* ready to lose it like that. could be. and it occurs to me that she's dealing (and they have to pack all this into the one ep) with her guilt about having brought gab into the situation. she always takes way too much responsibility, of course, and that would be there in this instance. . .but it would come later. xena wouldn't let her emotions get in the way of her focus. well, i'm rambling. what does it matter, anyway? she got gab back. she succeeded. that's what counts. and lucy felt good about what she did and that counts. so, as i said, i'm fine with it. there's a difference between not being happy *with* the way something was done and being unhappy about the thing itself. and too, they are trying to tell us something important both about xena and about gab's effect on her. and given the show and it being so early on and whatnot, that was certainly one way to go with it. to expect, as i seem to, that they would try to make it subtle and intense is pretty silly of me. and i don't really. again, i have no complaint, only a reaction. i seem to be able to argue several sides at once. fancy that. > > > and, truth out, i really don't think that was lucy's finest moment, meaning > > no disrespect at all. i chalk it up to trying very hard, too hard, to "give > > her all" and give something to the fans and general fatigue and it being > > season 1. fascinating to me that at the time she was very happy with that > > bit but thought her acting with solan at the end of was too > > emotional. or however she expresses it. > > Now that (with Solan), I thought, was just perfect. Not too emotional at > all. I think she hit the target dead centre in that scene. >> responding to thelo: yes, i thought the scene with solan was very well done and didn't have a clue why lucy thought it too sappy. i've watched it so many times trying to see what she saw. never have. > > As I said, I also thought the Solan scene felt more contrived, though I > hadn't realized Lucy thought so too. i'd be interested in what you felt was contrived. and for those who don't know, lucy said of that scene from "i thought the last, parting scene. . .played way too long. . .i was disappointed in the way i performed it. i would have kept the lid down harder, held it down tighter, so that the pain was greater. i kick myself about that one. . ." that's how i think they should have directed : extreme focus and intensity with the pain and fear held in b/c xena is a soldier, a warrior, and she's learned over the years that to do your best, you keep the lid on and do the job. period. just mho. really. now lucy's take on is fascinating b/c she believe she did something different from what i saw. she says "in the scene where xena loses her friend, you really see *raw xena*. you see how great her need is. and then [as an actor] you've still got to keep a lid on it or the audience is going to disengage at some point if you go into self-indulgence." marvelous thing about the xenaverse: you get to find out how the actors view what they were doing. i feel quite comfortable having seen it differently. in fact, i like it that i see it differently from the way she did because it makes clear how difficult it is to create that resonance between actor and viewer and how, even when it doesn't work for some or all of us, the effort, the caring, the work comes through and the honesty of it. i can't help but love that. BTW, I don't think "Doctor" was Lucy's finest > moment. I do believe it was a fine moment, the first of its kind on the > series and noteworthy to me because of that. yes, yes. absolutely as you say. very noteworthy and i think daring. i think that's an excellent point. > i wonder what i'd have thought had i > > been able to watch the show from the beginning. probably gone gaga. > md>> > > You know, that's a factor that I bet influences many of us more than we know. > I mentioned in an earlier post that I didn't see the Herc trilogy until > after nearly a year of Xena, which definitely influenced my response -- made me > more critical of the Xena in those Herc eps. hmmmmm. i'd love to know how. i just blew off the 3rd part--the affair with herc--cause i found it a yawner and i don't like those idiotic monsters. > > And why ever would you go back to lurker land? Surely you have more to get > off your chest than this? thanks for the invite. maybe i'll try to keep up. i keep taking on-line courses and trying to do political bits and pieces that take a lot of energy and are a bit hard on the body parts. but it's nice to be back. cheers all, md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:39:44 -0500 From: "H.J.J. Hewitt" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] A Day In The Life >> 'Armageddon Now'[...] Sorry, I take note of very little that Herc or his >>clones have to say. > >Excuses, excuses.... you realise you're professing ignorance of the best >ever Herc episode? No. NOT the best! No. NO. *N*O*!!! That has to be one of 2 very different others. For those who don't disdain Herk, my own overwhelming recommendation is "And Fancy Free" (marred only by Michael's wig for Widow Twanky [a much better one was used in the subsequent appearance of that character]). But for really hard core fans of Renaissance productions-- INCLUDING folks who just \hate/ HTLJ-- there is the incomparable "Yes, Virginia, There Is a Hercules". No Xena, no Lucy, not much Herk, but, by gosh with EVERYBODY \ELSE/ there, it doesn't matter!!!!! TEXena, \not/ an HTLJ fan ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:48:00 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: OT: Waves ( wasRe: [chakram-refugees] Re: Adventures in the Sin Trade) In a message dated 8/19/2003 9:30:30 PM Central Daylight Time, aemoses@comcast.net writes: > oh and here's one i found for lake michigan. i had *no* idea! > > http://www.lakesurf.com/LMWaves.htm > I can see Lake Michigan from my window. Believe me, those waves have crashed docked boats into each other, splashed over the rock walls, and washed across the beach and onto the road. There are days when it looks like Poseidon must be boiling the lake for his tea. It's an amazing sight, which I'm quite happy to view from afar. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:47:59 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH I found your post on another of my computers. Oh well, I'll respond to this bit: In a message dated 8/19/2003 9:48:14 PM Central Daylight Time, aemoses@comcast.net writes: > i remember sharon delaney writing in a sort of > teaser post after she'd seen the preview of that the resuscitation > scene had been a tear-jerker for her. i was therefore anticipating something > quite different. i liked some bits alright but it just. . .i dunno. . .it > just didn't work for me although i do love some of the shots. > OK, on Xena's grief we disagree about "Doctor," agree about "Maternal Instincts," and now agree on "Abyss." During most of the sixth season, I felt Lucy wasn't "feeling it" during such tear-jerker (TJ) scenes. I felt that was partly because she'd already done them to death and partly because the scenes were written to tie up loose ends. I mean, come on - out of nowhere Gabs suddenly goes back to thoughts of Hope in the "Abyss"? It felt as "natural" as Xena apologizing to Gabs in "Coming Home" for beaning the bard with the chakram, or in "Path to Vengeance" when Xena's consoling Gabs (to the "Ides" jail scene music) after Varia beans the bard. It seemed like we had more h/c and sensitive chat TJ in season 6, than in all the others combined. The main time I felt Lucy wasn't going through rote "sensitive Xena" responses was in "Fates," possibly because she was playing a "new" Xena. I'm sure she was giving those scenes her best shot, but I don't think her nearly dry tank was helped any by TJs that felt dropped in to make people feel better about TPTBs "sins of the past" in some fans' eyes. It felt like TPTB were trying too hard to "honor" the relationship before it hit the fan (ooo, an unintentional double entendre) at the end. :-) What made such TJ scenes more powerful to me in the past was that they seemed like precious moments stolen amidst all the drama. To Jackie and cr's point, I did feel there was restraint in terms of not overdoing grief, of letting the love between the characters come out mostly in small ways, in their humor, as an outgrowth of the story (as the grief was in "Doctor," "Sin Trade," "Ides," "Maternal Instincts"). We might disagree about how the grief/regret was expressed, but we *might* agree that it wasn't dropped in out of context, like I felt it was in "Abyss" and a lot of S6. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:01:36 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:24:18 EDT, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > -- Ife (trying to figure out how I'm agreeing with Jackie, who >originally agreed with cr, who then disagreed with Jackie, who originally >disagreed with me - --*Heehee*!! It _does_ get somewhat *confusing*, don't it?!? ;) However, I'm glad it's generating some interesting discussion....;) But I think it went somewhat like this: I stated my objections to ITADITH, Thel disagreed somewhat, but we both agreed on X's "inappropriate" response in the CPR scene, then Ife disagreed with us, Cheryl and others chimed in, but Thel backed me up. Now Ife is agreeing with me?!? ;) LOL And on Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:03:25 EDT, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 8/17/2003 6:52:53 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: >> Xena didn't realize how much of a hold this girl had on >> her until the moment she died and once the realization came she had do >> everything to save her. > > Thank you for that vote of confidence. I've been getting whacked >on two fronts. - --*Humph*! Well, earlier, *I* was getting whacked on *multiple* fronts, and Thel was the only one to come to my defense, so _there_! ;P [BG] And that point just *begs* the question: _Did_ G have that big of a hold on X at this point in their relationship, or was it just OTT acting (in Thel's words) on LL's part that made us think that?? IMO, the reaction didn't fit the earlier relationship as it was revealed to us on-screen. ;P > I think the ep does show Xena's initial resignation, even a moment of >doubt when Miramax (?) tells her to let Gabs go. "Don't you leave me!" >deals with a finality that wasn't there before. You make two excellent >points -- that Xena's response was not "out of the blue" and was >connected to one of the biggest eye openers there is, death. - --_That_ was the bit that *really* made me *wince*. ;P That plaintive "Don't leave me, don't leave me" was *so weak*, a warrior like X with *lotsa* experience with death (even of her close brother Lyceus) wouldn't have been reduced to a *blubbering idiot*, IMO. ;P Even a re-worded "Wake up" or "Keep fighting, G" or "Don't die" would've been vastly stronger than "Don't leave me", which implies X is a victim and has no power in the situation. Yes, Death is implacable, but X has overcome her past victimizations, IMO. Then on Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:47:09 -0400, "mirrordrum" *finally* chimed in: >it was early days and even if she had been gut-wrenched, she'd not have >looked like a little girl about it. - --Yup. :) That scene was such a typical "woman crying over loved one" scene, one that I *thought* TPTB had vowed never to write, at least this early on?? Wasn't it RJ who said that they deliberately wrote X as masculine, that is, without all the usual female foibles such as blubbering, playing the victim, waiting for others to save her, etc., and yet IMO that's exactly the way they wrote the CPR scene?? ;=P >i would reverse the take on xena dealing with gab's death in and >gab dealing with xena's death in . - --*Precisely*! I was going to say that earlier, but somehow I forgot to....;( G would've been the *blubbering type*, and X would've been the "hold-it-all-in/take-out-the-anger-in-another-form" type. _That's_ exactly what I was expecting X to do: accept G's death or fight it, but certainly not wail about it, then *f*ck* the gods for allowing this to happen. ;P _That_, to me, would've been more "appropriate". ;P But certainly not this "Mommy, Mommy, kiss my hurt and make it better" response. ;=P To me, that "girly-girl" reaction just doesn't ring true.....;=( Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:22:18 -0400 From: "mirrordrum" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:47 AM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH > I found your post on another of my computers. Oh well, I'll respond to > this bit: okay :) > > In a message dated 8/19/2003 9:48:14 PM Central Daylight Time, > aemoses@comcast.net writes: > > > i remember sharon delaney writing in a sort of > > teaser post after she'd seen the preview of that the resuscitation > > scene had been a tear-jerker for her. i was therefore anticipating something > > quite different. i liked some bits alright but it just. . .i dunno. . .it > > just didn't work for me although i do love some of the shots. > > > > OK, on Xena's grief we disagree about "Doctor," yep--with the exception that i agree with you that it served a function and was. . .well, novel. >agree about "Maternal > Instincts," now i don't think i commented on that. i read bits and pieces of the discussion tho. i didn't really have much trouble with that largely b/c i think people in general don't realize that children one has lost, however one has lost them, can be symbolically as important as children who are in one's life. to me, it was a nod to the depth of xena's loss and the loss of the relationship she imagined she might have had. and of course it was also necessary to justify the rift. i thought lucy did a very good job and wondered what she tapped to get that. i particularly liked it b/c in she'd had to let solan go again and this time, she really was making a connection. what got to me was her saying "i'm here. mama's here." (or words to that effect). that really tore me up. how many women would give their heart and soul to be able to say those words to a child they've lost and i include children lost by miscarriage or abodtion. i think you must carry that with you always. now, whether it would have burst out like that, the scream, i don't know. i was quite willing to buy it and found it powerful much as i balked at her over-the-top blaming of gabrielle who had, imo, done pretty much the same thing. and no, i don't feel the need to drag out that old theme and pound on it any more. >and now agree on "Abyss." During most of the sixth season, I felt Lucy > wasn't "feeling it" during such tear-jerker (TJ) scenes. absolutely. who could? > I felt that was > partly because she'd already done them to death and partly because the scenes were > written to tie up loose ends. I mean, come on - out of nowhere Gabs suddenly > goes back to thoughts of Hope in the "Abyss"? It felt as "natural" as Xena > apologizing to Gabs in "Coming Home" for beaning the bard with the chakram, or > in "Path to Vengeance" when Xena's consoling Gabs (to the "Ides" jail scene > music) after Varia beans the bard. the scene was ok as far as i was concerned and the scene was perfect. so beautifully understated. just superb. > > It seemed like we had more h/c and sensitive chat TJ in season 6, than in all > the others combined. yuppers. very tiresome. >The main time I felt Lucy wasn't going through rote > "sensitive Xena" responses was in "Fates," possibly because she was playing a > "new" Xena. well, i didn't like really at all. except for xena in her leathers which was an outfit simply for to die. walking up the steps that first time to meet caesar? oh my. but i digress. I'm sure she was giving those scenes her best shot, but I don't think > her nearly dry tank was helped any by TJs that felt dropped in to make people > feel better about TPTBs "sins of the past" in some fans' eyes. agreed. i wasn't happy abt season 5 (i was very cranky) and agree they tried to make up for it in season 5. iirc, thelo was one of the few who liked season 5, a season i've really enjoyed in reruns. odd that. i was in a mood. i didn't like them changing so many things at the beginning of a season that involved xena/lucy getting preggers. and i missed the chemistry and i didn't like curtsy and orkins or whoever they were. > It felt like > TPTB were trying too hard to "honor" the relationship before it hit the fan > (ooo, an unintentional double entendre) at the end. :-) i don't think tptb really knew what to do and i can understand that. the subtext fans--some of us (i wasn't one of them)-- were dissatisfied with the amount of supposedly overt subtext. somewhere someone got the deluded idea that people in same gender relationships tell each other "i love you" every time they turn around and that they had to show some kind of lip lock to pay homage. they seemed to think that doing this (endlessly attesting one's undying devotion) means something about the strength of the relationship. pah! this is on a par with having xena say, or was it gab, in that "people who love each other don't argue." helLO? i do not know in what world these people live. people who love each other may express love often, i certainly do, but not by constant displays of sappyness. or well, not in my book. having said that, i must also say that i have great respect for what tptb did in the series, i think they had a damned difficult job and i think they did their best. i didn't always agree with what they did but i love the show and the things i liked were as numberless as the stars. > > What made such TJ scenes more powerful to me in the past was that they seemed > like precious moments stolen amidst all the drama. To Jackie and cr's point, > I did feel there was restraint in terms of not overdoing grief, of letting > the love between the characters come out mostly in small ways, in their humor, > as an outgrowth of the story (as the grief was in "Doctor," "Sin Trade," > "Ides," "Maternal Instincts"). We might disagree about how the grief/regret was > expressed, but we *might* agree that it wasn't dropped in out of context, like I > felt it was in "Abyss" and a lot of S6. yep. absolutely. and for my money, the strength of the relationship--however one viewed it--was best expressed through humour, sticking up for each other or occasional emotional subtlety. i thought was excellent in this regard as were and the sappho gift ending in . now *that* was superb (imo). both lucy and ren were very fine. and i thought the scene could have been interpreted from virtually any relationship point of view which is nice. i was also very touched by ares (kevin's work) in both the end of and . now those scenes got me b/c they were, first of all, superbly done by kev who, imo, was one of the best actors in the series and b/c they weren't being thrown at us so incesssantly. and i lvoed that they kept having xena "feel something" and to me, the relationship between gab and xena was often at its most interesting and piquant when they were wrangling over xena and some guy. i like that. well, jeez. it's 3 am and i'm brain dead. this has been fun. i ahve no idea if it's either sensal or reasonal or if i'll agree with what i said on the morrow. nighty night. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:11:24 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] A Day In The Life On Thursday 21 August 2003 17:39, H.J.J. Hewitt wrote: > >> 'Armageddon Now'[...] Sorry, I take note of very little that Herc or his > >>clones have to say. > > > >Excuses, excuses.... you realise you're professing ignorance of the > > best ever Herc episode? > > No. NOT the best! No. NO. *N*O*!!! > > That has to be one of 2 very different others. For those who don't disdain > Herk, my own overwhelming recommendation is "And Fancy Free" (marred only > by Michael's wig for Widow Twanky [a much better one was used in the > subsequent appearance of that character]). But for really hard core fans > of Renaissance productions-- INCLUDING folks who just \hate/ HTLJ-- there > is the incomparable "Yes, Virginia, There Is a Hercules". No Xena, no > Lucy, not much Herk, but, by gosh with EVERYBODY \ELSE/ there, it doesn't > matter!!!!! > > > TEXena, \not/ an HTLJ fan Well, that depends *entirely* on whether you like 'dark' or not. And Fancy Free is a quite good 'homage' to Some Like it Hot. Entirely watchable, though I don't think it'd make my top ten. Yes Virginia is, IMO, the best Herc comedy by far. It had Hudson and Kevin Smith in it, too, as 'Liz Friedman' and 'Jerry Patrick Brown', and they had the same intensity between 'em as in Armageddon Now and Sacrifice. But they weren't being Callisto and Ares, so Yes Virginia must come second to Armageddon, IMO. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:17:06 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH On Thursday 21 August 2003 12:38, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/20/03 3:08:07 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > On Wednesday 20 August 2003 14:47, mirrordrum wrote: > > i've been following this thread off and on with interest and keep > > thinking about posting and then not. but i guess maybe i will. > > Welcome back from lurkland, md! Nice to see you! >> > > Ditto! Except, I can't seem to find your original post. Hopefully cr > copied most of it in his response. Unfortunately I snipped quite a lot. Blame the listmum ;) > > i feel a bit politically incorrect when i say that i've never > > particularly liked the resuscitation scene and, much as i dote on lucy's > > hands--and i really, really do, xena seemed in many ways ineffectual. > > too much patting. whyever would you pat someone's face like that? they > > do that in all the resuscitation scenes and it always bothers me. and > > there was something decidedly off about her (xena's) reaction. > > Hee hee. Politically incorrect. Welcome to the doghouse. ;)>> > > I really, really, really hate that term "politically incorrect." Can't say I care for it either, though I don't dislike it as much as 'inappropriate' ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:14:23 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] A Day In The Life On Thursday 21 August 2003 12:38, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/20/03 3:07:00 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > << you realise you're professing ignorance of the best > ever Herc episode? (snip) > I'm not professing ignorance of the ep, just of anything Herc might've > said. Admittedly, the main thing I remember is Xena saying "Break her > legs." Oh yeah. A bit of alt-Gab abuse. [brightens up] Yep, that was good. ;) > << I accept that, but I still have my preferences.>> > > (Per Xena to Lao Ma in the Debt. Heh.) Not a literal quote, though. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:20:50 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: ITADITH On Thursday 21 August 2003 16:52, mirrordrum wrote: (gratuitous and desperate snippage) > yes, i've been in such situations myself. i think the thing about this is > that the xena we're presented with in the series (and i think some amongst > us felt this about OAAA) is not one who loses control in that way. . .at > least not until gab comes along. i found her reaction in > perfectly in character. she would go nuts in just that way: with intensity, > direction, with a vengeance. Oh, nicely put. Yes, I find it quite in character that Xena would go off 3000 miles to try to rescue Gabs. Maybe even go slightly off her head in the process. I just don't see her breaking down and losing it like she did in ITADITH. (snip) > i'm not saying this didn't show a side of her that fascinates me. i don't > see it as wimpy, just out of character. i think i would expect xena to > demonstrate her concern by trying hard but with a singleness of purpose. i > would expect her to say to marmax "what would you know. . .you've killed so > many" in a hard, tight voice not a voice verging on hysteria. that's it, > it's the approximation to hysteria that unsettles me. xena has been through > too much to lose it like that. or maybe she's been through so much that > she's at the point where she *is* ready to lose it like that. could be. I prefer your first version - she wouldn't lose it like that. And I like the way you've described it there. > > > > Now that (with Solan), I thought, was just perfect. Not too emotional > > at all. I think she hit the target dead centre in that scene. >> > > responding to thelo: yes, i thought the scene with solan was very well done > and didn't have a clue why lucy thought it too sappy. i've watched it so > many times trying to see what she saw. never have. And as you know, I have a low threshold of tolerance when it comes to emotionalism. ;) I am *much* more likely to get emotional myself when the characters on screen are holding back. In a way, it's similar to the way violence (or action) destroys tension. In a good Western, there is a lot of tension when two gunfighters are facing each other in a saloon and we're not sure if one or the other is going to draw.... as soon as they start shooting, the tension disappears. In the same way, if the characters on screen are breaking down and yelling or crying, they have to be *very* convincing to stop me from reacting "oh, grow up!!" (Unsympathetic bastard that I am :) OTOH, if the _situation_ is such that strong emotions are evoked (e.g. with Solan at the end of Orphan of War) and if the characters aren't showing it (or, as in OOW, aren't able to let themselves show it) then it 'gets' to me. Then I'm the one who feels the emotion. Or the end of FIN, that was another good example that would have been ruined if Gabs had let loose a torrent of emotion on the deck of the ship. IMO. Gosh md, this tendency of yours to reflective rambling must be catching ;) > > As I said, I also thought the Solan scene felt more contrived, though I > > hadn't realized Lucy thought so too. > > i'd be interested in what you felt was contrived. and for those who don't > know, lucy said of that scene from "i thought the last, parting > scene. . .played way too long. . .i was disappointed in the way i performed > it. i would have kept the lid down harder, held it down tighter, so that > the pain was greater. i kick myself about that one. . ." Hey, Lucy knows *exactly* what I was getting at. Except, I think she got it right, in that scene. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:36:20 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH On Thursday 21 August 2003 18:01, Jackie M. Young wrote: > But I think it went somewhat like this: I stated my objections to > ITADITH, Thel disagreed somewhat, but we both agreed on X's > "inappropriate" response in the CPR scene, then Ife disagreed with us, > Cheryl and others chimed in, but Thel backed me up. Now Ife is agreeing > with me?!? ;) LOL Not that anyone here's a Farscape fan, but there's a Season 2 episode - 'Mind the Baby' - where everyone's playing double games and changing sides so fast (although always for reasons that make perfectly good sense for the characters, it's beautifully written that way) that it makes your head spin. This discussion reminds me a bit of that. Though nobody's going to get shot in this one. At least I hope not. ;) > --_That_ was the bit that *really* made me *wince*. ;P That plaintive > "Don't leave me, don't leave me" was *so weak*, a warrior like X with > *lotsa* experience with death (even of her close brother Lyceus) wouldn't > have been reduced to a *blubbering idiot*, IMO. ;P > > Even a re-worded "Wake up" or "Keep fighting, G" or "Don't die" would've > been vastly stronger than "Don't leave me", which implies X is a victim > and has no power in the situation. Yes, Death is implacable, but X has > overcome her past victimizations, IMO. Your re-wording would also have suggested more interest in Gabs' welfare. 'Don't leave _me_' suggests she's thinking about herself - more an EvilXena characteristic I think. > Then on Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:47:09 -0400, "mirrordrum" > > *finally* chimed in: > >it was early days and even if she had been gut-wrenched, she'd not have > >looked like a little girl about it. > > --Yup. :) That scene was such a typical "woman crying over loved one" > scene, one that I *thought* TPTB had vowed never to write, at least this > early on?? Wasn't it RJ who said that they deliberately wrote X as > masculine, that is, without all the usual female foibles such as > blubbering, playing the victim, waiting for others to save her, etc., and > yet IMO that's exactly the way they wrote the CPR scene?? ;=P Hmm, good point. And aside from my doubts about Xena 'losing it', I have a subconscious feeling that, even if she uncharacteristically did so, it isn't quite decent to be watching. Like one of these TV news cameramen who poke their cameras into the faces of grieving relatives. She's having a moment of personal weakness and it would be kinder to look the other way till she's recovered. Silly, I know, considering our view into every other dramatic moment of Xena's life. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:34:35 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: OT: Waves ( wasRe: [chakram-refugees] Re: Adventures in the Sin Trade) On Thursday 21 August 2003 17:48, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/19/2003 9:30:30 PM Central Daylight Time, > > aemoses@comcast.net writes: > > oh and here's one i found for lake michigan. i had *no* idea! > > > > http://www.lakesurf.com/LMWaves.htm > > I can see Lake Michigan from my window. Believe me, those waves have > crashed docked boats into each other, splashed over the rock walls, and > washed across the beach and onto the road. There are days when it looks > like Poseidon must be boiling the lake for his tea. It's an amazing sight, > which I'm quite happy to view from afar. > > -- Ife Seems odd, for a small sea / large lake to get that rough. I don't know much on the subject, but I seem to recall reading that the height of waves in the open sea is proportional to the 'reach' i.e. the distance of open water that the wind has to create them. Must be something in the shape of the lakebed that causes the waves to pile up, I'd guess. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #238 **************************************