From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #234 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, August 18 2003 Volume 03 : Number 234 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: DVDs ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: DVDs [cr ] [chakram-refugees] ITADITH ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] A Day In The Life ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:35:42 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH On Sunday 17 August 2003 14:04, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >As someone else said, Lucy expressed concern about Xena's letting go > > > like that. It was ROC and others who convinced her not to "protect" > > > the character from doing something so human. Seems she was glad she > > > did. > > > > I, of course, would say that LL was right the first time. :)>> > > Natch. And you, of course, would be WRONG. Thank goodness Lucy wanted > Xena to "stretch" and be more than a one-note scowler. Errm, you are just sooo wrong about that! You've just perpetrated some sort of huge non sequitir - you are implying that showing restraint on that particular occasion would limit Xena's depth of character on all other occasions. Obviously not so. I don't regard that particular bit of histrionics (in ITADITH) as necessarily 'stretching' LL's range. Just doing OTT emotionalism. The part of Xena gave LL immense opportunities to 'stretch' her talents, quite irrespective of ITADITH. Sometimes she just stretched them too far - I know some fans feel that way about Meg, well I feel that way about ITADITH. > > >It sometimes surprises me when I > > >end up arguing for the "rightness" of Xena's emotions in a situation > > > like "Doctor," even though I think I have perfectly "logical" reasons > > > based on Xena's fundamental characteristics -- as I'm sure you do too > > > for feeling those emotions weren't appropriate. > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > Hmm, I wouldn't say 'not appropriate', I'd just say "not what I'd expect > > from Xena". >> > > Understood. That's what I was getting from Jackie's comments. I was just making the distinction between 'appropriate' in its proper meaning (of 'fitting the occasion' or something like that, which doesn't relate to any particular person or character); and what would be consistent with Xena's character - as seen by you or I. (And I'm completely ignoring the current deplorable mealy-mouthed jargon usage of 'appropriate' as meaning 'politically correct' ;). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:47:47 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: DVDs On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:35:28 +1200, cr wrote: >Heh. You could say the same about computers. On the whole, I'd say >DVD's are waaay more compatible than, say, Windows2000 is with Windows98. - --Apples and oranges, m'dear, apples and oranges. ;P If you look at the rather *loooong* list of errors/incompatibilities on the site I gave you, and the fact that some of them require *firmware* upgrades, I'd say the troubles that DVDs cause are far more *labor-intensive* than probs with VHSs. Like my video-tech friend said, analog is much more "forgiving" than digital. ;P >Of all the DVD discs I've owned/rented, I've had problems with four. - --Well, like I've said, I don't have many DVDs, and I've had probs with roughly half of them. IMO, that's not a very good track record. ;( And some of the probs were *major* (i.e., requiring changing out of the player, or skipping scenes, or not playing at all). At least with VHSs, most of them will at least play, and if the tape is defective, you can at least watch the rest of the show beyond the defective portion. Not necessarily with DVDs. >Compare this with the usual condition of rental VCR tapes (and the >occasional tendency of old VCR's to eat same) and DVD is, I think, okay. >Not perfect but no more fault-prone than tape. - --Well, if a VCR ate a tape, you'd just hafta take it back and get a replacement. If a certain DVD won't play in your player you hafta take the *entire* player back to get replaced (as I did). Guess which is less trouble?!?! And what happens when the warranty runs out on the player?!?! And do we *really* think we're going to outlive our VHS tapes?? Will we still have the same interests 10-30 yrs. from now to find out?? And will we still be alive _50_ yrs. from now to test out whether DVDs outlast VHSs?? My main *gripe* is that DVDs are *marketed* as being _far superior_ to VHSs, but in reality, like you said, they are "no more fault-prone than tape". ;=/ Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:04:59 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:04:23 EDT, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 8/15/2003 11:29:49 PM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Saturday 16 August 2003 09:42, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >As someone else said, Lucy expressed concern about Xena's letting go >>like that. It was ROC and others who convinced her not to "protect" the > >character from doing something so human. Seems she was glad she did. > > I, of course, would say that LL was right the first time. :)>> > >Natch. And you, of course, would be WRONG. Thank goodness Lucy wanted >Xena to "stretch" and be more than a one-note scowler. - --*Hey!* Thel *agrees* with me, so YOU, Ife, must be WRONG. ;) And I kinda *liked* X, the one-note scowler. *I*'m a lot like that, and I seem to like myself, as far as I know.....;=) And who wants to "stretch"?? I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. ;P > > --Jackie (who's glad Thel agrees with her _some_times ;P )>> > > > > I think of myself as fairly "stoic" and not particularly > >comfortable with "touchy feely" stuff. > > (If I may butt in....) > Heck, I think of myself the same way. Maybe I'm more so than you are. > >Big surprise. I think you and Jackie have me beat in that regard. - --*Hehe!* Yes, Thel and I are far more *stoic* than most people would like. ;=) Kinda like..........*X*!! ;=) > >It sometimes surprises me when I > >end up arguing for the "rightness" of Xena's emotions in a situation >>like "Doctor," even though I think I have perfectly "logical" reasons >>based on Xena's fundamental characteristics -- as I'm sure you do too >>for feeling those emotions weren't appropriate. > > > Hmm, I wouldn't say 'not appropriate', I'd just say "not what I'd expect > from Xena". >> > >Understood. That's what I was getting from Jackie's comments. - --Yeah......glad to see Ife agrees with me sometimes, too....;) - --Jackie (who's mustering more and more agreement the longer this thread goes on....LOL ;) ) ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:24:56 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: DVDs On Sunday 17 August 2003 20:47, Jackie M. Young wrote: > --Well, like I've said, I don't have many DVDs, and I've had probs with > roughly half of them. IMO, that's not a very good track record. ;( > > And some of the probs were *major* (i.e., requiring changing out of > the player, or skipping scenes, or not playing at all). I'd say you've been unlucky. > My main *gripe* is that DVDs are *marketed* as being _far superior_ to > VHSs, but in reality, like you said, they are "no more fault-prone than > tape". ;=/ > Yes well, I agree about the marketing. But it wouldn't make me *not* own a DVD. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:01:22 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH I have been following the discussion of Xena's reaction to Gabrielle's death in this episode amd Xena's reaction. Some people felt it was out of porportion to Xena's relationship to Gabrielle. Actually I have been thinking about this and I believe that this was a culmination of a gradual change in Xena's feelings for Gabrielle. There are three episodes that really show Xena's growing attachment to Gabrielle. The first is The Athenian Academy. This is the first time Gabrielle leaves Xena. Xena's reaction is basically good- by, it's been nice to know you. She does say that she felt as if Gabby was a sister but that's it. When Gabrielle rejoins her Xena seems pleased but nothing more than that. The next time Gabrielle leaves it's in The Prodigal. This time Xena's reaction is different. She is hurt by Gabrielle's decision to return home and even a bit insulted. When Gabby says she has to discuss her feeling with her sister Xena asks why can't she discuss them with her. Then when Gabrielle decides to rejoin Xena we find out Xena was actually on her way to see her in Potadeia. Xena now wants Gabrielle with her and does miss her enough to search her out. ITADITH Gabrielle leaves again- not by her own choice certainly but she is gone, again. Xena's attachment to her friend now has become so strong that she can't let her go. She has become an essential part of her life. Xena the lone warrior really doesn't want to be that any more. She wants and needs the friendship Gabrielle offers her. That is why Xena appears to panic when Gabrielle dies. Xena has never needed anyone before but for some inexplicable reason she needs this person. I think IfeRae was right when she said Xena is as surprised as the audience at her strong reaction. Xena didn't realize how much of a hold this girl had on her until the moment she died and once the realization came she had do everything to save her. Xena's reaction however did not come out of the left field. Xena's attachment to Gabrielle became more and more pronounced as the season progressed and in this episode we see that culmination. Gabrielle is no longer just the sidekick she is now a major player in Xena's life and fate. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:30:41 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] A Day In The Life This is the best comedy of the entire series. It has an easy doing charm that I find irresistible. Xena and Gabrielle now interact like people who are together 24-7. They have private jokes, a real affection for one another and get on each other nerves like friends do. There are lot of good scenes here. Xena catching fish by listening to them and then scooping them up. Her delight in socking Gabrielle in the face with them. Xena and Gabrielle discussing Xena's fatal attraction to the opposite sex. "Leather and blue eyes" Gabrielle says as she explains Xena 's attraction to Xena. Gabrielle's exasperation as one of her cooking utensils becomes another weapon in Xena's arsenal. Xena using a piece of scroll "With not much writing on it" as toilet paper. And then her hasty retreat from her fuming friend. Xena's flying parchment (we of course now know where she got the idea -from Chin of course) and Gabrielle's lack of vision. Minya's adoration of Xena which eventually turns into a life long obsession. It goes on and on. And my favorite part the squashed bunny in Gareth's foot print - the show has been really hard on bunnies. Michael Hurst made his directorial debut on Xena in this episode and he did a wonderful job. He showed Xena's playful side and the real basis for Xena and Gabrielle's relationship - they enjoyed each other's company. You see a very relaxed Xena here. Xena had a problems to solve but I think she saw both Gareth and Zargreb as interesting challenges but no big deal. She could relax have a nice bath, experiment with new contraptions and annoy the hell out of her best friend - a nice vacation for a warrior princess. Gabrielle on the other hand gets to do a bit of trading, have a couple of sensitive chats, make one infamous subtext aside, take a nice bath and try to beat up her best friend - also not a bad vacation for a bardic sidekick. Hurst gets his comedy not from relying on pratfalls and jokes but from the fact that these two friends often view the world in very different ways. He built his comedy on character and that's what makes this comedy so good. This is also the first time Xena and Gabrielle bath togther. This is a delightful scene and of course is cited as a very subtextual. I actually don't view it that way. First you have Minya poping up every few minutes so how chummy can X & G get. Second Romans and probably Greeks did have public baths so the fact that these two would bath together is perfectly natural in their culture. Having said this let us say both LL and ROC look very good wet. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:24:10 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH In a message dated 8/17/2003 4:05:16 AM Central Daylight Time, jyoung@lava.net writes: > And I kinda *liked* X, the one-note scowler. *I*'m a lot like that, and I > seem to like myself, as far as I know.....;=) > > And who wants to "stretch"?? I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. ;P >> LOL! I identify with X also, but I also love learning and tinkering with what might not be broke, but sure could run better. What works in one situation isn't necessarily effective in another. Xena didn't do anything half-way, even when it hurt, which is why she became so multi-dimensional and is surely a major reason she appealed to such diverse fans. Maybe some would've been happy with six years of a one-note scowler. Yes, I probably would've still watched, but never would've become so fascinated or on the edge of my chair. I never knew what to expect, what new side to her we'd see. For me, the butt-kicking was the icing, whereas the emotional growth and change became the cake I never expected. > < like. ;=) Kinda like..........*X*!! ;=)>> Actually, I think we're having this discussion because Xena became *less* stoic than some people would lke. I guess you two like "early" Xena, just as some fans prefer "early" Gabs. I liked watching all Xena's transformations (and Gabs') from beginning to end. > Ife: >>It sometimes surprises me when I >>end up arguing for the "rightness" of Xena's emotions in a situation> > >>like "Doctor," even though I think I have perfectly "logical" reasons > >>based on Xena's fundamental characteristics -- as I'm sure you do too > >>for feeling those emotions weren't appropriate. > >> > cr: >Hmm, I wouldn't say 'not appropriate', I'd just say "not what I'd expect > > >from Xena". >> > > Ife: >Understood. That's what I was getting from Jackie's comments. > > Jackie: --Yeah......glad to see Ife agrees with me sometimes, too....;)<< LOL! I'm fine with whatever either of you choses to focus on -- "expectation" in cr's case and "appropriateness" in yours. I responded in terms of what seemed "characteristic" of Xena's "give it my all and my best" approach, even when she didn't know the folks she was helping. It's not what I expected, but I found it appropriate in that I wouldn't expect "nothin' less." (I can hear KT gnashing her teeth.) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:24:18 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] ITADITH In a message dated 8/16/2003 11:51:34 PM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Sunday 17 August 2003 14:04, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > >Thank goodness Lucy wanted > >Xena to "stretch" and be more than a one-note scowler. > > Errm, you are just sooo wrong about that! You've just perpetrated some > sort of huge non sequitir - you are implying that showing restraint on that > particular occasion would limit Xena's depth of character on all other > occasions. Obviously not so.>> Jeez, talk about leaps! Jackie seemed to imply (maybe even said) that Xena was just fine as the stoic scowler. She went beyond that particular scene to say that restraint (particularly for Xena) was generally preferable and more powerful. Xena could've wailed over Marcus (even Argo, for all I cared. I simply was glad to see them not limit her grieving to various forms of stoic restraint, and thought the timing and circumstances were -- to use Jackie's word -- "appropriate." From that point on, we carried another image of Xena, regardless of whether we liked it or not or hoped to ever see it again. If it hadn't happened, we wouldn't be discussing it. Okay? > > I don't regard that particular bit of histrionics (in ITADITH) as > necessarily > 'stretching' LL's range. Just doing OTT emotionalism. The part of Xena > gave LL immense opportunities to 'stretch' her talents, quite irrespective > of > ITADITH. Sometimes she just stretched them too far - I know some fans feel > > that way about Meg, well I feel that way about ITADITH. >> If you refer to my comment above, I said I was glad Lucy agreed to "stretch" *Xena,* that her concern was about "protecting" the *character*. I wasn't talking about Lucy herself. Yes, I acknowledged that I was surprised Lucy had pulled it off, because she hadn't shown anything like that before. It showed me she had a bigger range -- was willing to "let go" -- in a way I hadn't seen. I'm not saying it was a stretch for her as an actress or that she didn't have many other opportunities. I'm not even going to argue that it was the best example of that or *the* best time. I guess I'm saying it stretched Xena as a character for me, as well as my idea of Lucy's ability. I realized she was truly *acting* the stoic role, rather than playing to what what she knew best or was most comfortable with -- which I might've thought if we'd had six seasons of that. Clearer? > > >>>It sometimes surprises me when I > >>>end up arguing for the "rightness" of Xena's emotions in a situation > >>>like "Doctor," even though I think I have perfectly "logical" reasons > >>>based on Xena's fundamental characteristics -- as I'm sure you do too > >>>for feeling those emotions weren't appropriate. > >>> > >>>-- Ife > >> > >>Hmm, I wouldn't say 'not appropriate', I'd just say "not what I'd expect > >>from Xena". >> > > > >Understood. That's what I was getting from Jackie's comments. > > I was just making the distinction between 'appropriate' in its proper > meaning > (of 'fitting the occasion' or something like that, which doesn't relate to > any particular person or character); and what would be consistent with > Xena's character - as seen by you or I. > > (And I'm completely ignoring the current deplorable mealy-mouthed jargon > usage of 'appropriate' as meaning 'politically correct' ;).>> I don't see the sense in separating "appropriate" from the people involved. Why else have the word, unless it's to define/assess how people should act, what role they should play, what emotions they're supposed to exhibit? I also don't see much value in distinguishing between "appropriate, " "polite," "politically correct," or "insincere." To me, the underlying meaning is that one governs one's self (sometimes against what one would really like to say, do or feel) because of the circumstances. There are "rules" or "guidelines" imposed on us from somewhere, depending on who we are. It may depend on age, status, occupation, culture, personality, and any number of characteristics which mean different rules for people experiencing the same "occasion" and are interpreted differently by those observing them. You could have 100 people at a funeral, and folks would be deciding what was appropriate based on the griever's relationship to the deceased. Our concept of what was "appropriate" for Xena to do/feel is tied as much to our concept of her as a warrior, as a person and as a friend to Gabrielle, as it is to what is appropriate on the occasion of someone dying. I'm thinking Jackie hit closer to the "heart" of our disagreement by reminding us of where all these notions come from and why we have them. I contend that it is not so they can sit on a shelf with no connection whatsoever to people or the characters who purport to represent people. Okay, it's appropriate for you (or anyone else) to talk now. - -- Ife (trying to figure out how I'm agreeing with Jackie, who originally agreed with cr, who then disagreed with Jackie, who originally disagreed with me - -- gods, the pain, the pain! -- to paraphrase Ares in "You Are There") ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #234 **************************************