From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #228 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, August 12 2003 Volume 03 : Number 228 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena the wimp [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] A Necessary Evil [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors [cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena the wimp On Monday 11 August 2003 13:34, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Wimpy!? In OAAA she defeats the entire Persian Army, in A good Day she > arranges the destruction of two Roman Armies, Sin Trade she defeats Alti in > an spirit battle while flying through the air, when In Rome arranges the > death of Cassius and rescues an important Roman enemy, while pregnant whe > defeats a Chinese army and then later kills a host of gods, then in season > 6 she defeats devils and angels and cannibles. WOW! That's pretty good for > a whimp. > > CherylA Errrm, nitpick, it wasn't the entire Persian Army just a small detachment.... (though why I bother with that uneducated episode I don't know ;) But I do like where you're coming from.... :) She woulda got the Archangel Michael, too, if his boss hadn't called 'uncle' and zapped him outta there... Speaking of armies of course, she also zapped 100,000 of Khan's troops in Back in the Bottle... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:17:12 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] A Necessary Evil On Monday 11 August 2003 14:28, Cheryl Ande wrote: > This is one great episode. There are so many great moments in this episode > that they are impossible to list. Yes, this is one of my Top Ten favourite eps, I think. A delight to watch. > But here go my favorites. After Valesca > has gone on a rampage at the Amazon village Ephiny is discussing strategy > with Xena in a cave. During the discussion Eph point out the Xena has a > dislocated shoulder. Xena fixes it by smashing the injured shoulder into > the cave wall. As Ephiny looks on in astonishment Xena pronounces it all > better and gives a little wave to prove it. That perfunctory little wave of the arm was delightful. As if Xena practised un-dislocating her arm every day and could hardly be bothered demonstrating it. > Callisto talking to her "Little Hercules" and then chopping the little guy > up. Yes, poor little rat. Just as we thought she was showing a sentimental streak, the killer surfaces. > Callisto giving Gabrielle a saucy little wink just they are about to fight > Velasca. The highlight of the ep, I thought. Just so typically Callisto. Incidentally, usually a scar looks very disfiguring, especially one right across the middle of someone's face, but the one Callisto had suited her so well, I was almost disappointed when she lost it. (Which was, when she ate the ambrosia and became a god. At the same time, she got strange eyes like Velasca's. But they had returned to her normal, very striking, dark eyes by the next ep - maybe it's just a new-god thing.) > Gabrielle about to be skewered by Valesca and trying a half > hearted attempt to talk her out of it. Another scene I loved - Callisto taunting Gabby after she climbed out of the pit - G: Xena-- are you all right? X: Oh yeah, I'm fine. C: Oh, me too-- thanks for asking. Oh, but, then, you've never really cared for me, have you? [Understatement of the century ;) ] G: You?re here. It wasn't my idea. C: Oh, no, no, of course not. How've you been? Any new husbands since the last one I killed? (Gabby lunges at Callisto with her staff and misses). C: (Laughs) (To Xena:) I knew there had to be some reason you liked her. That was good-- but you know the problem, don't you? I'm immortal-- you can't kill me. You can't even hurt me. Oh, but you want to, don't you? Here-- let me help. (Pulls her sword out and stabs herself in the stomach with it). (Laughs) See? No blood. Immortals don't bleed. And we heal fast. Oh-- but not in pieces. (That was a reference to Xena's threat to carve her into pieces). There was a lovely little moment as Callisto pulls her sword out, Xena in the background reflexively grabs her chacky. This whole episode was full of nice little moments like that. > These are great moments but there is also great acting here. Hudson Leick > almost makes Callisto sympathetic. The scene where she listens to Xena's > confession is heart rendering. Her grief and pain is so evident but so is > her disappointment that this public humiliation of Xena does nothing to > lessen her pain. Then you have her Truth or Dare game with Gabrielle. She > confesses to Gabrielle how traumatized she was by the deaths of her sister > and mother. Just as Gabrielle does, you begin to feel real sympathy and > then suddenly Callisto turns and destroys that sympathy with glib cruelty. My impression is that Callisto didn't *want* any sympathy. > It's an amazing performance - Hudson can generate sympathy for Callisto > without making her pathetic or ever diluting her villainy. Like Xena you > know she has to be destroyed but like Gabrielle you hope that she can find > some kind of peace . I think Callisto was the real star of this episode - she had all the best lines. But everyone was good in it, even the cold Velasca. > Melinda Clarke is again very good. She has a wonderful speech where she > berates Artemis for abandoning the Amazons. You feel that Valesca is > genuinely angry at the state of the Amazon nation but that she has also > taken the fall of the Amazons as a personal insult. We also see that > Valesca isn't terribly bright. She is so focused on her mission to kill > Gabrielle that she stumbles from one trap to another and can't even realize > that Callisto is offering her an alliance. Again we see that fatal > combination of arrogance and stupidity that seems to afflict so many > leaders with a holy cause. Giving Callisto some more lovely lines - V: You must have a death wish. C: You know, it's funny-- I think I do. and C: You don't just kill me and walk away. > ROC also does a good job here. It is the first and I think only time that > Gabrielle has a personal enemy. Valesca doesn't give a hoot about Xena, > Gabrielle is her target. Gabrielle takes all this with an air of > astonishment. I think for the first time she realizes that her actions > have serious consequences. Her playing Valesca as a fool comes back to > bite her big time but is also willing to deal with that herself. She is > willing to die if she gets to take Valesca with her. Gabrielle doesn't > hide behind Xena even if Xena keeps jumping in front of her. Hmmm, yes. Interesting point. And well played by ROC, I think. Gabby's realisation that Velasca wanted to kill her, personally, and was going to hunt her down and do just that. > Callisto > is now so peeved at Valesca that she will kill Valesca just for the joy of > it. Xena uses both women's obsessions to destroy them - for now. Led to another line I love - and this time it was Velasca's, just after Callisto ambushed her and stole the ambrosia - "Ugh! She's _got_ to go!" And another of Callisto's lovely lines - "Here comes trouble". It doesn't sound much, but it's just the way Hudson delivers them that makes them so good. > Now I have one question left over from The Quest. This has always bothered > me. When Gabrielle hops on Xena's coffin and rides out of town on it, > Valesca goes ape. Yelling that Gabrielle has betrayed the Amazons. What > was the betrayal anyway? Xena wasn't an Amazon so if her funeral is > disrupted why is it such a big deal? Also it may be startling to see the > queen surfing through the village on a coffin but is that cause enough for > a general uprising by her subjects? > > CherylA I entirely agree. I just couldn't see the reasoning. Okay, so Velasca wanted any excuse to depose Gabby, she could have accused Gabs of having 'abandoned' them or insulted them, but not 'betrayed' them. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:25:24 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors On Monday 11 August 2003 05:27, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/9/2003 9:10:54 PM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > I was just disputing your (presumably unintended) implication that the > > Gauntlet forced her into being good because she had no other options. > > LOL! Yes and no. Actually, I hadn't thought of it that way initially, but > your interpretation made me realize that's exactly the conclusion I'd have > drawn, so I went with it. My only reservation with what you say is > that I don't mean she had no other options, so much as that the other > options might have prevented her from doing things her way as a person and > a commander. As usual, she risked death rather than compromise her way. I have to agree there. She did have other options, but none of them were exactly what she would have wanted, I think. > I kinda think through writing (which is why I'm so verbose), not sure where > it'll lead until I'm there. Somebody else will say something, and either I > change my mind or get clearer about what the heck my own perceptions are. > So, yes, you're essentially disputing my agreement with your translation of > my originally unintended conclusion. Thanks! Bwhahahahaha! > > -- Ife If you say so. I'll take your word for it. My brain isn't up to untangling that bit of logic at this time of night. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:15:15 -0400 (EDT) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #227 - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 21:44:18 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" "Thirdly, X's reaction to G's apparent death was really pretty un-X-like. ;P I mean, crying and yelling and being helpless is _not_ X. And exactly _where_ did X learn CPR?!? ;P" She didn't learn CPR, she invented it! Actually Xena is trying anything that comes to mind to wake Gabrielle. She tries giving her air and in frustration beats on her chest - she is doing CPR but doesn't know it. As for Xena's reaction to Gabrielle's death I don't think that it was wildly out of character considering Xena's character is still developing, we are still in season 1 here. I have always felt that Xena is a much more emotional person than her persona would indicate. At the moment Gabrielle dies Xena reacts strongly for a number of reasons. First she feels very responsible for draging Gabrielle into this war. They could have gone around it but Xena has decided to step into it and this puts Gabrielle in danger unnecessarily. Second Xena has grown very fond of Gabrielle and in fact now has referred to Gabrielle as her family. Xena has strong attachments to family. When her brother Lyceus died she was strongly affected and traumatized by this. Now I have always thought her attraction to Gabrielle came from the fact Xena saw in Gabrielle the same qualities she saw in her brother. Xena begins to love Gabrielle because she reminds her of Lyceus. Now suddenly Gabrielle has been killed because Xena has insisted on getting involved in a war that she could have avoided - just like Lyceus. Xena is now reliving the death of Lyceus so it is now wonder she is emotional. Third Xena is a woman full emotion. She keeps a tight rein on them because they are powerful. When she lets go all hell breaks loose - look at Bitter Suit or Sin Trade at the campfire. Xena is not naturally a stoic when gripped by strong emotion she vents in a spectacular manner. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:56:28 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #227 In a message dated 8/11/03 9:15:45 AM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: << Third Xena is a woman full emotion. She keeps a tight rein on them because they are powerful. When she lets go all hell breaks loose - look at Bitter Suit or Sin Trade at the campfire. Xena is not naturally a stoic when gripped by strong emotion she vents in a spectacular manner. >> Yes, I found that aspect much more intriguing than her astonishing range of medical skills. I loved that we finally go to see some of the emotions simmering below the surface. It made her ability to rein them in more notable to me. Also, it said more to me than that she'd grown to love Gabrielle so much. As you suggested in the part I snipped about Lyceus, it also shows the depth of love she could experience, as well as the agony when she lost such people (which we saw only a hint of with Marcus), compounded by what she believed was her own guilt in their deaths. What truly moved me was how clear it was that Gabrielle had opened Xena to caring again in a way that would be difficult for Xena to shut off. It was like, "No! I've finally let someone in my heart again. I'm not ready to face that loss or going back to being alone." The devestation she'd have felt was palpable and, I thought, quite "right" for her in the early stages of her allowing herself to accept the vulnerability of feeling love again. It's true, this wasn't the Xena I was used to, but I so loved how she was shown as continuing to evolve, to experience both the pain and joy of each stage. And thanks in large part to Lucy, I usually believed what I saw. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:56:32 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] A Necessary Evil In a message dated 8/11/03 4:29:38 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: << Now I have one question left over from The Quest. This has always bothered > me. When Gabrielle hops on Xena's coffin and rides out of town on it, > Valesca goes ape. Yelling that Gabrielle has betrayed the Amazons. What > was the betrayal anyway? Xena wasn't an Amazon so if her funeral is > disrupted why is it such a big deal? Also it may be startling to see the > queen surfing through the village on a coffin but is that cause enough for > a general uprising by her subjects? > > CherylA I entirely agree. I just couldn't see the reasoning. Okay, so Velasca wanted any excuse to depose Gabby, she could have accused Gabs of having 'abandoned' them or insulted them, but not 'betrayed' them. >> Originally, Velasca believed Gabs would be "realistic" and see herself as unsuitable (e.g, not interested, too wimpy, no experience). Even after Gabs takes the position, I think Velasca figured she could still deal with Gabs on her (V's) own turf -- fighting her if necessary. When Gabs surfs off, she throws an unexpected glitch in V's plans. On a personal level, I think V was furious that Gabs had fooled (in V's mind "betrayed") her twice, confusing the issue by possibly forcing a battle of loyalties. On a PR level, I think V wanted to convince the Amazons that G betrayed them by assuming the mantle, then abandoning her responsibilities out of loyalty to her "dead" friend. Velaca wasn't one to pull punches, especially with such grand ideas about herself and what she'd make of the Amazons. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:42:39 -0400 (EDT) From: cjlnh@webtv.net (Cheryl LaScola) Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #227 Regarding Xena's "over-reaction" to Gabby's death in "Doctor"......I agree with Cheryl A's POV and would offer an additional reason. Not only was Xena distraught and feeling guilty, she was panicked because SHE could not fix it. She protected Gabrielle for the entire season and this was her first encounter with her friend's likely death ....something she never wanted to face and for a time was all out of her control. Also, I happen to think this was LL's finest 3 minutes of acting. I was totally swept away with the emotion Xena was feeling and inability to give up was so real to me. Just another opinion..... Cheryl L ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #228 **************************************