From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #227 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, August 11 2003 Volume 03 : Number 227 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #219 [IfeRae@aol.co] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Gauntlet & Season 1 directors [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Unchained Heart [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Gauntlet & Season 1 directors/ITADITH ["Jacki] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Gauntlet & Season 1 directors [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena the wimp ["Xena Torres" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:39:33 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #219 In a message dated 8/9/2003 6:01:24 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Najara never seemed to be 'heavy' enough to seriously threaten Xena. For > instance when she defeated Xena so badly in the inn, I just found that hard > to credit. >> I didn't. First, Xena wasn't as intent (then) at finishing Najara off. Second, Najara caught her off guard. Third, as Xena points out in the cave, she had other things (like Gabrielle and a certain vision) on her mind. > > Alti, now, *she* looked big and bad enough to take Xena. And Callisto, > though shorter, had that psychotic intensity. Whereas Najara just looked > flaky, to me. > Najara was shown as pretty much Xena's equal in the fighting department. She was doing pretty well the first time they fought, was able to catch arrows and looked like a carbon copy of Xena as they growled and fought side by side in that barn. But I think Najara was purposely made to look less formidable than she was -- the pastel, soft outfit, slight frame, gentle voice, etc. Alti was exactly as she looked, while Najara's true threat lay in appearing to be sweetness and "Light" on the outside. It was her psychological acumen and seemingly idealistic madness that impressed me and sucked Xena in. I loved that, in the end, Xena used psychological warfare and overt madness (only half pretend) to defeat Najara. I agree, Najara wasn't as obviously dangerous as Alti and Callisto, which is what I liked about her as another nemesis for Xena. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:39:31 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Gauntlet & Season 1 directors In a message dated 8/9/2003 6:01:35 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Saturday 09 August 2003 19:48, Jackie M. Young wrote: > > >In fact, beyond S1/S2, X got fairly *wimpy*, IMO. ;( But of course, > >that's just MO. ;) > > > > The Xena of The Debts, Sacrifice, Sin Trade, Motherhood and FIN was *wimpy* > ????? > Not to mention the Xena in Maternal Instincts, half of Crusader, all of The Convert, (in fact, most of S4, the second half of S5 and first half of S6, to name a few????? Okay, okay, cr and I (and certainly Someone else who must be on one of her tours) can get a little defensive about the WP. Is it mainly Lucy's "whispery" voice that makes you say that, or Xena's evolving sensitivity to things small, furry and/or blonde? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:24:31 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Unchained Heart On Sunday 10 August 2003 15:08, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Well I watched that episode again last night. It is a very good Hercules > episode with a really good performance by Robert Tabor as Salmoneius. His > Salmoneius was always nicely played. Salmoneius is always such a light > hearted fellow that it is shock to see him almost catatonic with fear in > the rock slide. He however recovers his equilibrium enough to escape Ares > monster and help Ioleus fight the bad guys. For me Tabor was the high > light of this episode. The bit I liked best was the camping scene near the start when Herc is trying to shut Salmoneus up so he doesn't let on to Iolaus that Xena has now teamed up with Herc. I also like his eternal optimism for his chances with the Warrior Princess (or women in general). Ummm, X: "Are you a biographer or a bad comedian? Or, have you dreamed up some other get-rich-quick scheme?" S: "How about love-slave? I'm versatile." X: "You're deluded." > Lucy's performance in this episode is more problematic. She seems a bit > unsure as what her role her is suppose to be. Is she kick ass warrior or > Herc's love interest? It's not that you can't be both - she pulls it off > in Prometheus but here she seems a bit unsure of exactly how to play it. I think very possibly she was a little unsure. Or maybe, not unsure so much as, still working out just how > She is great as the warrior when she attacks Darphus's scouts though her > lines are pretty awful "Those barbarians" she mutters (in her own show > they would have been bastards). I loved that. Xena's idea of 'scouting' is typically enterprising. > She is also funny as she diligently avoids cooking. ... and makes Herc do it. I liked that even better. > I also rather like the fact it is she who initiates the intimacy > with Hercules - she is after all a take charge kind of gal (and an > extremely good kisser). I'm *sure* she is ;) > It just seems that she is a little too besotted with Herc - right after the > rock slide there is a bit of dialog where Xena says gushingly to Herc that > what he did was the bravest thing she ever saw anyone do. Herc then > blushes and says modestly "it wasn't anything" That exchange just reeked. > It was an awful scene and it wasn't played well either by LL or KS. I suspect it was just the Herc writers doing their usual thing. I expect Lucy and Kevin S were doing the best they could with it. Doubtless, a few seasons later, Lucy would have got that line changed. > It > just seemed so out of character for Xena to be so open in her admiration. > I think she still would have hidden behind a warrior's mask and the > complement would have been more off hand. Yes, I agree. The 'real' Xena would have been much more reserved. But again, Lucy was new to the character. > As for Xena being another notch in Hercules belt I didn't see it that way. You may have noticed I didn't either. ;) > You know one of the nice things about Sorbo's Hercules is that he plays the > demi-god as a very decent man. Yes he had lots of romances in the series > but you always felt he truly liked those women and he would have been ready > to settle down with them if they just said the word. That's the idea you > come away with in UH - Herc was ready to make a life with Xena but Xena had > issues she had to deal with. He did, yes. In fact that was one of the themes of the series - that Herc was so decent. It was also at times a drawback, Herc could at times appear too goody-goody to be really interesting. I think Kevin Sorbo was ambivalent about that - at times he seemed to wish for something a bit darker to get his teeth into, but on the other hand he didn't care for the really 'dark' eps. (At least, that's the impression I have from the occasional KS comments I've seen. But my memory could be fallible). > The other thing I liked about this episode was the fact that Herc and Xena > were portrayed as equals. Herc never had to rescue Xena. They worked as > partners in the final battle. Herc fought the monster and Xena fought > Darphus and together they defeated both foes. Nice touch there. That was probably intentional on the part of the writers, showing that Xena was now a hero to equal Herc. > Michael Hurst was also good. Distrustful of Xena at first which was > justifiable on his part, he slowly warms to Xena. I liked the part where > he returns to camp after Xena and Herc's romantic interlude. Ioleus just > has to laugh at the irony of the situation. The woman who nearly got him > to kill his best friend is now truly in love with that same person. Where > someone else would be angry or hurt at the development Ioleus just finds it > amusing. Gotta love that guy. The Iolaus bit I liked best was when the soldier was about to bushwhack Xena, and Iolaus gets him with a thrown knife. Xena's somewhat indignant about it, but recovers well - I: "Look out!" H: "Show off." X: "Any closer, and my ear would've been stuck to his chest." I: "Well, you didn't give me a very good angle." X: "I knew you could handle it." > CherylA > > PS: Yes Xena had 80s hair for some unknown reason. Perhaps LL had the > same hairdresser who kept dying ROC in season 2. The one who just liked > experiment. I don't know hairstyles but I thought she looked (almost) cute in it. Maybe not quite militant enough for Xena. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 21:44:18 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Gauntlet & Season 1 directors/ITADITH On Sat, 9 Aug 2003, cr wrote: > On Saturday 09 August 2003 19:48, Jackie M. Young wrote: > > > In fact, beyond S1/S2, X got fairly *wimpy*, IMO. ;( But of course, > > that's just MO. ;) > > The Xena of The Debts, Sacrifice, Sin Trade, Motherhood and FIN was *wimpy* > ????? - --*Ummhmmm*....because it was "all about love" and all that *mushy* stuff. ;P She was always searching for G and *bailing G out* of some situation, la-dee-dah, la-dee-dah.......;( Evil X had that Meg-like voice (for whatever logic that applies to??) and I'm not quite sure I _believed_ the way LL played her evilness (i.e., it was just too "over the top"). BTW, I just got through (*finally*!!) with checking my S1 DVDs and saw Is There A Doctor again for the first time in quite a while. I think my reaction the second time around in retrospect was even more incredulous than the first time, (i.e., after all the discussions I could step back and see the machinations). First of all, I *really hate* TJScott's "dramamine" direction!!! ;=P IMO, that "reality" effect for XWP just doesn't do it for me (yes, I also *hated* Girls Just Wanna). Second of all, my first reaction when I saw the "X in the ER" scenes was to burst out laughing. This was *so stupid* of a plot, and the writing *sucked*, too. I mean, how many times will X need "clean cloths, a reed, and sharp knives"?? That "bladder" definitely was 1996 AD rubber! And will that Galen character ever stop *whining*?!? Thirdly, X's reaction to G's apparent death was really pretty un-X-like. ;P I mean, crying and yelling and being helpless is _not_ X. And exactly _where_ did X learn CPR?!? ;P I know I'm in the minority here, and it was discussed to death originally, but just thought I'd throw in a "2nd viewing" comment....;) Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:22:44 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Gauntlet & Season 1 directors On Sunday 10 August 2003 16:39, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > The Xena of The Debts, Sacrifice, Sin Trade, Motherhood and FIN was > > *wimpy* ????? > > Not to mention the Xena in Maternal Instincts, half of Crusader, all of The > Convert, (in fact, most of S4, the second half of S5 and first half of S6, > to name a few????? > > Okay, okay, cr and I (and certainly Someone else who must be on one of her > tours) can get a little defensive about the WP. Oh, I wasn't being defensive. More like incredulous. And I rather think She Who Stomps on Grizzly Bears will regard that term 'defensive' with... disfavour. ;) > Is it mainly Lucy's > "whispery" voice that makes you say that, or Xena's evolving sensitivity to > things small, furry and/or blonde? Now don't start me on the effect the subtext had on her.... :( cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:54:55 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #219 On Sunday 10 August 2003 16:39, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/9/2003 6:01:24 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > Najara never seemed to be 'heavy' enough to seriously threaten Xena. > > For instance when she defeated Xena so badly in the inn, I just found > > that hard to credit. >> > > I didn't. First, Xena wasn't as intent (then) at finishing Najara off. > Second, Najara caught her off guard. Third, as Xena points out in the > cave, she had other things (like Gabrielle and a certain vision) on her > mind. Quite true. I guess I just get used to Xena's near-infallibility. The occasions when someone unexpected, like Najara, or Milo, can give her a tough time, are disconcerting. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:27:16 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors In a message dated 8/9/2003 9:10:54 PM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I was just disputing your (presumably unintended) implication that the > Gauntlet forced her into being good because she had no other options. > > LOL! Yes and no. Actually, I hadn't thought of it that way initially, but your interpretation made me realize that's exactly the conclusion I'd have drawn, so I went with it. My only reservation with what you say is that I don't mean she had no other options, so much as that the other options might have prevented her from doing things her way as a person and a commander. As usual, she risked death rather than compromise her way. I kinda think through writing (which is why I'm so verbose), not sure where it'll lead until I'm there. Somebody else will say something, and either I change my mind or get clearer about what the heck my own perceptions are. So, yes, you're essentially disputing my agreement with your translation of my originally unintended conclusion. Thanks! Bwhahahahaha! - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:34:23 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena the wimp > In fact, beyond S1/S2, X got fairly *wimpy*, IMO. ;( But of course, > that's just MO. ;) > > - --Jackie Wimpy!? In OAAA she defeats the entire Persian Army, in A good Day she arranges the destruction of two Roman Armies, Sin Trade she defeats Alti in an spirit battle while flying through the air, when In Rome arranges the death of Cassius and rescues an important Roman enemy, while pregnant whe defeats a Chinese army and then later kills a host of gods, then in season 6 she defeats devils and angels and cannibles. WOW! That's pretty good for a whimp. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:58:52 -0700 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena the wimp And let's not foget the MASSIVE Japa army of 10,000. She didn't beat them all, but made one hell of a dent! BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" >From: "Cheryl Ande" >To: >Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena the wimp >Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:34:23 -0400 > > > In fact, beyond S1/S2, X got fairly *wimpy*, IMO. ;( But of course, > > that's just MO. ;) > > > > - --Jackie >Wimpy!? In OAAA she defeats the entire Persian Army, in A good Day she >arranges the destruction of two Roman Armies, Sin Trade she defeats Alti in >an spirit battle while flying through the air, when In Rome arranges the >death of Cassius and rescues an important Roman enemy, while pregnant whe >defeats a Chinese army and then later kills a host of gods, then in season >6 >she defeats devils and angels and cannibles. WOW! That's pretty good for a >whimp. > >CherylA >========================================================= >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. >========================================================= _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:28:25 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] A Necessary Evil This is one great episode. There are so many great moments in this episode that they are impossible to list. But here go my favorites. After Valesca has gone on a rampage at the Amazon village Ephiny is discussing strategy with Xena in a cave. During the discussion Eph point out the Xena has a dislocated shoulder. Xena fixes it by smashing the injured shoulder into the cave wall. As Ephiny looks on in astonishment Xena pronounces it all better and gives a little wave to prove it. Callisto talking to her "Little Hercules" and then chopping the little guy up. Solari kicking an Ephiny in the face to convince Valesca that she has joined her and Eph giving Solari a look that says "Hey we're pretending here - not so rough." Callisto giving Gabrielle a saucy little wink just they are about to fight Velasca. Gabrielle about to be skewered by Valesca and trying a half hearted attempt to talk her out of it. Xena inventing bungee jumping. These are great moments but there is also great acting here. Hudson Leick almost makes Callisto sympathetic. The scene where she listens to Xena's confession is heart rendering. Her grief and pain is so evident but so is her disappointment that this public humiliation of Xena does nothing to lessen her pain. Then you have her Truth or Dare game with Gabrielle. She confesses to Gabrielle how traumatized she was by the deaths of her sister and mother. Just as Gabrielle does, you begin to feel real sympathy and then suddenly Callisto turns and destroys that sympathy with glib cruelty. It's an amazing performance - Hudson can generate sympathy for Callisto without making her pathetic or ever diluting her villainy. Like Xena you know she has to be destroyed but like Gabrielle you hope that she can find some kind of peace . Melinda Clarke is again very good. She has a wonderful speech where she berates Artemis for abandoning the Amazons. You feel that Valesca is genuinely angry at the state of the Amazon nation but that she has also taken the fall of the Amazons as a personal insult. We also see that Valesca isn't terribly bright. She is so focused on her mission to kill Gabrielle that she stumbles from one trap to another and can't even realize that Callisto is offering her an alliance. Again we see that fatal combination of arrogance and stupidity that seems to afflict so many leaders with a holy cause. ROC also does a good job here. It is the first and I think only time that Gabrielle has a personal enemy. Valesca doesn't give a hoot about Xena, Gabrielle is her target. Gabrielle takes all this with an air of astonishment. I think for the first time she realizes that her actions have serious consequences. Her playing Valesca as a fool comes back to bite her big time but is also willing to deal with that herself. She is willing to die if she gets to take Valesca with her. Gabrielle doesn't hide behind Xena even if Xena keeps jumping in front of her. Lucy is now back in fine form. Her Xena makes a drastic decision to save Gabrielle and she ruthless enough to carry it through even over Gabrielle's objections and discomfort. Xena is also smart enough to keep one step a head of her lethal advisories. She masterfully manipulates both Valesca and Callisto. She knows what both women want. She dangles Gabrielle before Valesca like meat before a shark and lures her to her death. Xena also knows Callisto is always after two things: power and vengeance. She gives her the latter by her public confession and holds out the other in the promise of godhood. She also knows that Callisto is very good at holding a grudge thus when she gets Valesca to attack Callisto she knows that Callisto will never again offer an alliance to the goddess. Callisto is now so peeved at Valesca that she will kill Valesca just for the joy of it. Xena uses both women's obsessions to destroy them - for now. Now I have one question left over from The Quest. This has always bothered me. When Gabrielle hops on Xena's coffin and rides out of town on it, Valesca goes ape. Yelling that Gabrielle has betrayed the Amazons. What was the betrayal anyway? Xena wasn't an Amazon so if her funeral is disrupted why is it such a big deal? Also it may be startling to see the queen surfing through the village on a coffin but is that cause enough for a general uprising by her subjects? CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #227 **************************************