From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #226 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, August 10 2003 Volume 03 : Number 226 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Out Mag, Aug. 2003 ["Jackie M. Young" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:29:26 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Out Mag, Aug. 2003 A friend of mine on the mainland sent me this interview with LL in Out Magazine, Aug. 2003. I had never heard of it before, so thought I'd share it with y'all. ;) It comes with a nice color photo supposedly of her with somewhat wettish-looking hair, in a white robe, but the face doesn't look like her at all?? I still disagree with LL about her character being gay, but I digress.....;) - -------- Out, Aug. 2003, p. 48 Voices by Michael Musto Lucy Lawless Michael Musto goes head-to-head with our favorite warrior princess, trading barbs about her new show, lesbian subtext, and spooky sex. Making lesbians swoon, New Zealander Lucy Lawless spent six years as the butchly beautiful title character in _Xena: Warrior Princess_. Well, she hasn't given up the fight. In a five-part British Discovery Channel series called _Warrior Women_, Lawless investigates strong females such as Joan of Arc and Mulan. They had nothing on her. Musto: Hi Lucy! This Discovery job is a perfect fit for you, isn't it? LL: It's about ancient warror women, so I was a no-brainer. I deserted pilot season to run off to China, but I felt like when I was 80 I'd kick myself for turning this down. M: As for your _last_ gig: Were Xena and Gabrielle really in love? LL: Where there's smoke, there's got to be fire. At the end, Xena says she had a very special friend. It was clear from the writing that it was a love relationship. I thought, "Yep, she's gay. You just outed my character." It was all innuendo prior to that. It was fun to make the subtext go on. It became supertext to me. M: But Xena did have some boyfriends along the way, right? LL: Yes, but I now think she was being bi-curious! M: What _I'm_ curious about is whether Gabrielle is now having sex with Xena's decapitated ghost. LL: I hope so. I wouldn't mind people having spooky sex. I'm a long way from home [doing interviews in London] and having spooky sex alone, just thinking of my husband. You start thinking of the bellman funny after you've been away. Asking the people who frisk you at the airport to do it one more time! M: I know--I go in for repeat prostate exams. Are lesbians ever disappointed that you, Lucy, are not gay? LL: That doesn't appear to me when I meet them. I've always been grateful to them for picking up on my show first. I feel they made it hip. I don't think they require Lucy to be gay; they're just glad I was associated with something that gave them pleasure and inspiration. M: I bet they also love that you played Rizzo in _Grease_. Isn't that a lesbian subtext role? Rosie O'Donnell played it too. LL: I don't know! She was getting laid. She's sexually liberated. M: Sounds lesbian to me. And other liberated roles coming up for you? LL: In _The Ugly Americans_, I'm playing the female Frank'N'Furter character, a sort of S/M madam. Why does it happen to me, Michael? I have this culty, weird sexual persona that people have imprinted on me. I live in a nether region of the entertainment industry. It's very fun, and it really has legs. But I'm so straight. I'm so boring. M: Would you like to play just a regular housewife? LL: Only if she was in-- M: Stiletto heels? LL: Moral or pschological peril. I like to play women in difficult situations. But in Hollywood they think I'm seven feet tall and muscualr and aggressive. [Laughs] And I _can_ be! - -------------- Just FYI, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:48:30 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Gauntlet & Season 1 directors On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:19:24 EDT, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >I personally don't like wimpy Xena, which tended to happen more when >Reformed Xena was around Herc. Lucy seemed to defer to Sorbo too much >(trying not to upstage him) in "UH" and later in "Prometheus." Her voice >got a girlish quality, coupled with what I call "batting eye syndrome." - --I'm not sure LL was not trying to upstage KS, but the relationship of the characters was still in its infancy, so it would've been natural for X to have been "respectful" of H. ;P But if you wanna talk *little girl voice* [Jackie gets on her favorite soapbox ;) ], Meg was totally *teeny-weeny* voice, which I *hated*, and beyond S1/S2, X's voice suddenly got this *whispery* quality which I also *hated*. ;=P In fact, beyond S1/S2, X got fairly *wimpy*, IMO. ;( But of course, that's just MO. ;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:15:18 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors On Saturday 09 August 2003 06:39, Ribaud, Lynn wrote: > > I agree that she's shown as having a good streak, which is > > precisely what got > > her in trouble with her men. However, if they'd accepted her > > orders not to > > hurt innocents or wantonly destroy villages, she could've > > continued her > > "enlightened" warlording. I think in "Gauntlet" she learned > > the price she'd have to > > pay morally if she tried to lead a new group of thugs, and > > the price she could > > pay in terms of losing her power over them if she insisted on being > > honorable. It was like the critical event that pushed her > > over the line toward the > > side of good, that showed straddling the line was no longer a > > realistic option. > > This interpretation seems to me to have to be rather fluid. It fits > well if we are discussing Xena as seen from no later a vantage point (in > terms of aired information) that the trilogy, but... > If we consider later information -- and here I am thinking in > particular of The Debt, Adventures in the Sin Trade and Past Imperfect > (though there are other eps that have some impact) -- Xena didn't seem too > strongly attached to a moral interpretation of the world she inhabited. It > is almost as if her 'no women or children' rule happened more by > happenstance -- women and children didn't come out to play with her army, > so they were ignored. Certainly groups she wanted to dominate -- the > Siberian Amazons and the Centaurs, for example -- could expect no quarter. > And I cannot believe that *every* member of either of those groups would > have been even potentially a combatant (e.g., both would have had some > members too young and others too old). Given what we saw from Otere's > viewpoint of Xena's raid on her people, sparing some didn't seem to be of > major concern to Xena. > I'm not saying that there was none of this thread in Xena's actions > -- just that this wasn't necessarily a very strong thread. > > > Lynn > > Lynn Ribaud > ribaud@bnl.gov I think it's also a matter of *when* these themes surfaced. i.e. 'no women or children' was in The Gauntlet (?), when the evil Warrior Proincess was turning out to be not as bad as originally thought, so she had to have a good streak. In those other erps you mention, Xena's Dark Past was getting retrospectively darker by the episode.... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:25:03 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors On Saturday 09 August 2003 05:27, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/8/03 6:45:48 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz > writes: > > Actually, I thought she looked good enough to eat. Partly the hairstyle, > I think. But I agree, more like 'princess' than 'warrior' in appearance. > HOWEVER, there was plenty of the warrior in there - for example, when she > went off to 'scout' for Darphus's men and promptly beat up five of them. > Xena's idea of 'scouting' seems to be more like anyone else's idea of > all-out assault. :)>> > > Agreed. That's why I emphasized that she got batty eyed in scenes with > Sorbo. The pre-reformed eye batting (e.g., with Iolus) "fit" with the > manipulation going on, but got more wimpy when it was supposed to be > genuine. Errr, yep. > > Yuck! I was so glad Lucy got over that in her S5 ep with Sorbo. > > Admittedly, I'm not a big Sorbo fan. However, I also don't have a > > problem simply because of the dalliance between Herc and Xena, though no > > doubt there are others who do. > > Of course, though a Hercfan could regard Xena as a notch in Herc's belt, I > prefer to regard Herc as a notch in Xena's. ;)>> > > While I prefer to think of it as the two of them mutually enjoying each > other's ... company. :-) Okay, to be serious for a moment, yes I agree with that view too. > That makes it sound as if Xena only turned good because she had no other > options. (I'm not sure if you mean it that way). I'd prefer to think > that she turned good because she always had a streak of goodness in her, > and the events of 'The Gauntlet' showed her she had to choose. >> > > I agree that she's shown as having a good streak, which is precisely what > got her in trouble with her men. However, if they'd accepted her orders > not to hurt innocents or wantonly destroy villages, she could've continued > her "enlightened" warlording. I think in "Gauntlet" she learned the price > she'd have to pay morally if she tried to lead a new group of thugs, and > the price she could pay in terms of losing her power over them if she > insisted on being honorable. It was like the critical event that pushed > her over the line toward the side of good, that showed straddling the line > was no longer a realistic option. > > -- Ife Well yes, I think that's more or less in line with what I had in mind. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:59:58 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #219 On Friday 08 August 2003 04:08, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > << I am blatantly and unashamedly prejudiced towards Xena. And > > against anyone who tries to hurt her. Well, except Ares. And > > Callisto. ;) >> > > > > Oh? Why is that? Because you like them too (which is a good enough > > reason)? Or is there some other reason (like having a different moral > > relationship to Xena)? > > > > - Ife > > Because I like them too. And since it's my prejudices we're talking > about, that's quite enough reason >> > > Yes, I was trying to acknowledge that. I was simply curious about whether > your had other reasons. Even tho I'm hard on Xena sometimes, I think it's > pretty obvious that I'll go to great lengths to rationalize some of what > she does because I'm so biased toward her. Well, I suppose I could point out that Ares did, in fact, save Xena on occasion. He wasn't all bad. But that's a whole different thread. And of course Callisto had good reason to persecute Xena - but that's a whole 'nother thread. But that's really not why I instinctively like them or find them so interesting - it's more a personality thing. > I also liked Najara as a worthy opponent for Xena. I didn't have the same > affection for her as for Ares and Callisto, but I thought she was the best > at playing off X&G's insecurities -- using what was going on inside their > heads. I thought Catherine Morris did a great job of seeming to combine > the best of both X&G, then showing the worst side of that. > > -- Ife Najara never seemed to be 'heavy' enough to seriously threaten Xena. For instance when she defeated Xena so badly in the inn, I just found that hard to credit. Alti, now, *she* looked big and bad enough to take Xena. And Callisto, though shorter, had that psychotic intensity. Whereas Najara just looked flaky, to me. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:53:15 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Gauntlet & Season 1 directors On Saturday 09 August 2003 19:48, Jackie M. Young wrote: > In fact, beyond S1/S2, X got fairly *wimpy*, IMO. ;( But of course, > that's just MO. ;) > The Xena of The Debts, Sacrifice, Sin Trade, Motherhood and FIN was *wimpy* ????? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 14:34:49 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors In a message dated 8/8/2003 1:44:18 PM Central Daylight Time, ribaud@bnl.gov writes: Ife said: > I think in "Gauntlet" she learned > >the price she'd have to > >pay morally if she tried to lead a new group of thugs, and > >the price she could > >pay in terms of losing her power over them if she insisted on being > >honorable. It was like the critical event that pushed her > >over the line toward the > >side of good, that showed straddling the line was no longer a > >realistic option. > > This interpretation seems to me to have to be rather fluid. It fits > well if we are discussing Xena as seen from no later a vantage point (in > terms of aired information) that the trilogy, but... > If we consider later information -- and here I am thinking in > particular of The Debt, Adventures in the Sin Trade and Past Imperfect > (though there are other eps that have some impact) -- Xena didn't seem too > strongly attached to a moral interpretation of the world she inhabited. Yes, I think that's an excellent point. There's little in the trilogy itself to suggest either the depths of depravity or the compassion we'd see later on. Cr seemed to be saying that Xena's inherent streak of goodness might have led to her reformation without the gauntlet. I believe the gauntlet forced her into self-reflection and seeking a different course that she may have had no reason to consider otherwise. Like you, I didn't see her exhibiting any great "moral interpretation" in the trilogy. I see a practical commander who believes in order, control, loyalty, efficiency. Who prefers scaring victims into submission and not wasting efforts on rampages or killing that serve no purpose. Saving the baby is the main indication to me that she may have a personal code of ethics about being a warrior and/or a sense of decency that dictates you can go "too far." But even then, I saw a mixture of horror at what her men had done and outrage that they had disobeyed her orders. I'm not even sure she knew which upset her more. I do give her credit for not changing her position once she realized Darphus' power lay in his promise for a more "no holds barred" approach to looting and mayhem. She could've tried to maintain control by saying, "Cool, you can kill the kid and do more pillaging in the future. But if you want to keep winning and getting rich, remember that I'm a lot smarter and fair than Darphus, who can't be trusted not to stab you in the back like he did me. You know me. You know what I can do. When have I told you something that wasn't true? I say Darphus and I should determine between the two of us which is more fit to lead." Again, I think Xena's arrogance blinded her to Darphus' threat or to the possibility that her men would actually kill her. I think her pride (and possibly personal code) led her to stick to her course of "my way" even when confronted by the gauntlet. I didn't get the impression it was because of some altruistic moral stand represented by the baby. If I emphasized her moral dilemma, it was mainly to explore cr's view that she might be capable of such a dilemma because of her "good streak." My point was that even if she was, I still don't think she'd have given up her army at that point unless forced by circumstances to do so. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:04:17 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors On Sunday 10 August 2003 06:34, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (excuse massive snippage) > Yes, I think that's an excellent point. There's little in the trilogy > itself to suggest either the depths of depravity or the compassion we'd see > later on. Cr seemed to be saying that Xena's inherent streak of goodness > might have led to her reformation without the gauntlet. No, that's not what I meant, though I suppose it's a possibility. But I wouldn't be inclined to rate it very high. > I believe the > gauntlet forced her into self-reflection and seeking a different course > that she may have had no reason to consider otherwise. Yes, that's about what I meant. I was just disputing your (presumably unintended) implication that the Gauntlet forced her into being good because she had no other options. > If I > emphasized her moral dilemma, it was mainly to explore cr's view that she > might be capable of such a dilemma because of her "good streak." My point > was that even if she was, I still don't think she'd have given up her army > at that point unless forced by circumstances to do so. > > -- Ife I think it's an unknown, but you're probably right. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 23:08:23 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Unchained Heart Well I watched that episode again last night. It is a very good Hercules episode with a really good performance by Robert Tabor as Salmoneius. His Salmoneius was always nicely played. Salmoneius is always such a light hearted fellow that it is shock to see him almost catatonic with fear in the rock slide. He however recovers his equilibrium enough to escape Ares monster and help Ioleus fight the bad guys. For me Tabor was the high light of this episode. Lucy's performance in this episode is more problematic. She seems a bit unsure as what her role her is suppose to be. Is she kick ass warrior or Herc's love interest? It's not that you can't be both - she pulls it off in Prometheus but here she seems a bit unsure of exactly how to play it. She is great as the warrior when she attacks Darphus's scouts though her lines are pretty awful "Those barbarians" she mutters (in her own show they would have been bastards). She is also funny as she diligently avoids cooking. I also rather like the fact it is she who initiates the intimacy with Hercules - she is after all a take charge kind of gal (and an extremely good kisser). It just seems that she is a little too besotted with Herc - right after the rock slide there is a bit of dialog where Xena says gushingly to Herc that what he did was the bravest thing she ever saw anyone do. Herc then blushes and says modestly "it wasn't anything" That exchange just reeked. It was an awful scene and it wasn't played well either by LL or KS. It just seemed so out of character for Xena to be so open in her admiration. I think she still would have hidden behind a warrior's mask and the complement would have been more off hand. As for Xena being another notch in Hercules belt I didn't see it that way. You know one of the nice things about Sorbo's Hercules is that he plays the demi-god as a very decent man. Yes he had lots of romances in the series but you always felt he truly liked those women and he would have been ready to settle down with them if they just said the word. That's the idea you come away with in UH - Herc was ready to make a life with Xena but Xena had issues she had to deal with. The other thing I liked about this episode was the fact that Herc and Xena were portrayed as equals. Herc never had to rescue Xena. They worked as partners in the final battle. Herc fought the monster and Xena fought Darphus and together they defeated both foes. Nice touch there. Michael Hurst was also good. Distrustful of Xena at first which was justifiable on his part, he slowly warms to Xena. I liked the part where he returns to camp after Xena and Herc's romantic interlude. Ioleus just has to laugh at the irony of the situation. The woman who nearly got him to kill his best friend is now truly in love with that same person. Where someone else would be angry or hurt at the development Ioleus just finds it amusing. Gotta love that guy. CherylA PS: Yes Xena had 80s hair for some unknown reason. Perhaps LL had the same hairdresser who kept dying ROC in season 2. The one who just liked experiment. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #226 **************************************