From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #225 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, August 9 2003 Volume 03 : Number 225 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors [cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors On Friday 08 August 2003 10:19, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/7/03 5:32:57 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > I didn't see the trilogy until maybe sometime during the second season. > > In some ways I was disappointed, because this wasn't quite the tortured > > hero I'd come to know. > > Well, that was *always* going to be the case. When Xena first appeared > she > was just warlord of the week on Herk. Warlords of the week rarely have > enough screentime to show a lot of their inner character, besides which it > isn't usually their function, that belongs to the hero. > > > But also, in general, characters on their first appearance are usually > less interesting, partly because they haven't built up any background and > the writers and actors are unfamiliar with the character. Callisto on > her first appearance is like that, IMO. Very one-sided. She became far > more complex and interesting and just more fun in later eps.>> > > Actually, I found both Xena and Callisto more interesting than usual the > first time around. I certainly liked the "Warrior Princess" Xena better > than the "Unchained Heart" one, for reasons I explain in another post. > Even though the initial Xena was more bad than "tortured," I didn't mean I > thought she wasn't interesting. She was just different than what I'd > gotten used to and preferred. Umm, define 'than usual'. Do you mean, 'more interesting than usual *for that character*', or more interesting than the usual run of villains? For myself, I'd say both initial Xena and initial Callisto were more interesting than the usual villains, but less interesting than they subsequently became. > << I'm thinking of The Warrior Princess in making those comments, I think > in The > Gauntlet particularly we could already see the character becoming more > complex. Not so in Unchained Heart, which I really like because it's > fun, but I don't think it does a lot for Xena's character development, the > falling-in-love-with-Herc is more for the benefit of the Herc story than > the Xena story. >> > > Seems we agree, then, except for maybe I found the first Xena more > interesting than other villains. But, then, I hadn't seen many Herc > villains and was perhaps more favorably biased becauses I'd already started > watching XWP. > > cr Errm, you shoulda cut the 'cr' since I think you said that last para, not me. :) But I agree with it. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 22:59:01 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors On Friday 08 August 2003 10:19, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > Well, that and Unchained Heart, which most people seem to dismiss (why? > Because they dislike the thought of Herc scoring with Xena? I dunno). >> > > I personally don't like wimpy Xena, which tended to happen more when > Reformed Xena was around Herc. Lucy seemed to defer to Sorbo too much > (trying not to upstage him) in "UH" and later in "Prometheus." Her voice > got a girlish quality, coupled with what I call "batting eye syndrome." Actually, I thought she looked good enough to eat. Partly the hairstyle, I think. But I agree, more like 'princess' than 'warrior' in appearance. HOWEVER, there was plenty of the warrior in there - for example, when she went off to 'scout' for Darphus's men and promptly beat up five of them. Xena's idea of 'scouting' seems to be more like anyone else's idea of all-out assault. :) > Yuck! I was so glad Lucy got over that in her S5 ep with Sorbo. > Admittedly, I'm not a big Sorbo fan. However, I also don't have a problem > simply because of the dalliance between Herc and Xena, though no doubt > there are others who do. Of course, though a Hercfan could regard Xena as a notch in Herc's belt, I prefer to regard Herc as a notch in Xena's. ;) > I thought this was a great example of how Xena's arrogance got her in > trouble. I mentioned in another post that a leader has to satisfy the > self-interest of troops in order to avoid mutiny. Xena promised them loot > and power, with restrictions. Darphus promised them loot and rampage with > no restrictions. > > You can see in the way she saunters up to the gauntlet that she's > absolutely confident that her men wouldn't dare attack her, that she > doesn't feel a need to escape, skewer Darphus or try to rally the men to > her side. Yes, you're quite right about that. > Then there's the stunned realization that she'll have to prove > her authority, the fear and helplessness when they attack, and finally the > resolve not to be defeated personally, regardless of having her command > taken away. Lucy does a fantastic job of conveying the rapid transition > from one emotion to the next. I think the point was to show how easily she > could lose what she'd come to take for granted. Otherwise, what's the > motivation to change, if she can still be somewhat honorable *and* take > loot and power at will? > > -- Ife That makes it sound as if Xena only turned good because she had no other options. (I'm not sure if you mean it that way). I'd prefer to think that she turned good because she always had a streak of goodness in her, and the events of 'The Gauntlet' showed her she had to choose. I rather suspect the 'official' theory at the time was that Herc was so good, his influence did the trick. But myself, being neither a Hercfan nor a Gabfan, I prefer to put it primarily down to Xena herself - helped, maybe, by Herc, Gabs, and in a far more minor way by a few others. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:11:08 -0500 From: "Mark B." Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors Well, after all these posting I had to drag out the tape and watch it again >>I personally don't like wimpy Xena, which tended to happen more when >>Reformed Xena was around Herc. Lucy seemed to defer to Sorbo too much >>(trying not to upstage him) in "UH" and later in "Prometheus." Her voice >>got a girlish quality, coupled with what I call "batting eye syndrome." > I did not remember specifically thinking of LL as deferring to Sorbo, but I can see what you mean. I had thought it more of just an inconsistency in her character [as compared to 'Warrior Princess'] and I passed that off as LL still getting into the saddle [so to speak] with her character. > > Actually, I thought she looked good enough to eat. Partly the hairstyle, I > think. But I agree, more like 'princess' than 'warrior' in appearance. > HOWEVER, there was plenty of the warrior in there - for example, when she > went off to 'scout' for Darphus's men and promptly beat up five of them. > Xena's idea of 'scouting' seems to be more like anyone else's idea of all-out > assault. :) The hair style... would that be described as 'kind of poofy' in the back?? I'm sure there is some more technical nomenclature for that. Doesn't everyone have a soft and a hard side? I'm sure Xena is entitled to that as well. We're just sorta not used to it. > Of course, though a Hercfan could regard Xena as a notch in Herc's belt, I > prefer to regard Herc as a notch in Xena's. ;) > LOTF... > > >>Then there's the stunned realization that she'll have to prove >>her authority, the fear and helplessness when they attack, and finally the >>resolve not to be defeated personally, regardless of having her command >>taken away. Lucy does a fantastic job of conveying the rapid transition >>from one emotion to the next. I think the point was to show how easily she >>could lose what she'd come to take for granted. Although UH only showed a short clip of 'Gauntlet', I thought LL did an excellent job before the gauntlet of showing cocky arrogance at first and then shocked disbelief when her armor was ripped off and it kind of hit her then that she was going to actually be forced to run the gauntlet. > I also enjoyed the way Iaolus was shown to have such an initial distrust of X... not that you can blame him, based on what she did to him thought, right? Mark ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:27:12 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors In a message dated 8/8/03 6:45:46 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: << For myself, I'd say both initial Xena and initial Callisto were more interesting than the usual villains, but less interesting than they subsequently became. >> Agreed. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:27:12 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors In a message dated 8/8/03 6:45:48 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: On Friday 08 August 2003 10:19, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Lucy seemed to defer to Sorbo too much > (trying not to upstage him) in "UH" and later in "Prometheus." Her voice > got a girlish quality, coupled with what I call "batting eye syndrome." Actually, I thought she looked good enough to eat. Partly the hairstyle, I think. But I agree, more like 'princess' than 'warrior' in appearance. HOWEVER, there was plenty of the warrior in there - for example, when she went off to 'scout' for Darphus's men and promptly beat up five of them. Xena's idea of 'scouting' seems to be more like anyone else's idea of all-out assault. :)>> Agreed. That's why I emphasized that she got batty eyed in scenes with Sorbo. The pre-reformed eye batting (e.g., with Iolus) "fit" with the manipulation going on, but got more wimpy when it was supposed to be genuine. > Yuck! I was so glad Lucy got over that in her S5 ep with Sorbo. > Admittedly, I'm not a big Sorbo fan. However, I also don't have a problem > simply because of the dalliance between Herc and Xena, though no doubt > there are others who do. Of course, though a Hercfan could regard Xena as a notch in Herc's belt, I prefer to regard Herc as a notch in Xena's. ;)>> While I prefer to think of it as the two of them mutually enjoying each other's ... company. :-) > Then there's the stunned realization that she'll have to prove > her authority, the fear and helplessness when they attack, and finally the > resolve not to be defeated personally, regardless of having her command > taken away. Lucy does a fantastic job of conveying the rapid transition > from one emotion to the next. I think the point was to show how easily she > could lose what she'd come to take for granted. Otherwise, what's the > motivation to change, if she can still be somewhat honorable *and* take > loot and power at will? > > -- Ife That makes it sound as if Xena only turned good because she had no other options. (I'm not sure if you mean it that way). I'd prefer to think that she turned good because she always had a streak of goodness in her, and the events of 'The Gauntlet' showed her she had to choose. >> I agree that she's shown as having a good streak, which is precisely what got her in trouble with her men. However, if they'd accepted her orders not to hurt innocents or wantonly destroy villages, she could've continued her "enlightened" warlording. I think in "Gauntlet" she learned the price she'd have to pay morally if she tried to lead a new group of thugs, and the price she could pay in terms of losing her power over them if she insisted on being honorable. It was like the critical event that pushed her over the line toward the side of good, that showed straddling the line was no longer a realistic option. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:39:35 -0400 From: "Ribaud, Lynn" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] The Guantlet & Season 1 directors Breaking into the middle of an exchange... > > Then there's the stunned realization that she'll have to prove > > her authority, the fear and helplessness when they attack, > and finally the > > resolve not to be defeated personally, regardless of > having her command > > taken away. Lucy does a fantastic job of conveying the > rapid transition > > from one emotion to the next. I think the point was to > show how easily she > > could lose what she'd come to take for granted. > Otherwise, what's the > > motivation to change, if she can still be somewhat > honorable *and* take > > loot and power at will? > > > > -- Ife > > That makes it sound as if Xena only turned good because she > had no other > options. (I'm not sure if you mean it that way). I'd > prefer to think > that she turned good because she always had a streak of > goodness in her, and > the events of 'The Gauntlet' showed her she had to choose. >> > > I agree that she's shown as having a good streak, which is > precisely what got > her in trouble with her men. However, if they'd accepted her > orders not to > hurt innocents or wantonly destroy villages, she could've > continued her > "enlightened" warlording. I think in "Gauntlet" she learned > the price she'd have to > pay morally if she tried to lead a new group of thugs, and > the price she could > pay in terms of losing her power over them if she insisted on being > honorable. It was like the critical event that pushed her > over the line toward the > side of good, that showed straddling the line was no longer a > realistic option. This interpretation seems to me to have to be rather fluid. It fits well if we are discussing Xena as seen from no later a vantage point (in terms of aired information) that the trilogy, but... If we consider later information -- and here I am thinking in particular of The Debt, Adventures in the Sin Trade and Past Imperfect (though there are other eps that have some impact) -- Xena didn't seem too strongly attached to a moral interpretation of the world she inhabited. It is almost as if her 'no women or children' rule happened more by happenstance -- women and children didn't come out to play with her army, so they were ignored. Certainly groups she wanted to dominate -- the Siberian Amazons and the Centaurs, for example -- could expect no quarter. And I cannot believe that *every* member of either of those groups would have been even potentially a combatant (e.g., both would have had some members too young and others too old). Given what we saw from Otere's viewpoint of Xena's raid on her people, sparing some didn't seem to be of major concern to Xena. I'm not saying that there was none of this thread in Xena's actions - -- just that this wasn't necessarily a very strong thread. Lynn Lynn Ribaud ribaud@bnl.gov ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #225 **************************************